Gardai ordered to stop at red lights while chasing suspects

Sunnyisland

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/gardai-ordered-to-stop-at-red-lights-while-chasing-suspects-30427155.html


The new rules on driving mean officers who have not done an advanced training course must observe speed limits and not use their blue light while their car is in motion.

A directive given to gardai also says they must “obey the rules of the road”, which will restrict them from driving in bus lanes and going through red lights, even if the route is clear.

If caught driving outside the rules of the road and stopped by the Traffic Corps, gardai will also face fines and penalty points — just like other drivers, they have been told.

One source told the Sunday Independent: “This is ridiculous, you couldn’t make this up. If we have a call to an armed incident, we are expected to drive within the limit and not use the siren. It’s not just the uniformed lads too, it’s the people in NBCI (National Bureau of Crime Investigation) and the Special Branch who will be feeling like eejits over this.”


This is ridiculous, more bureaucratic bull****, could they not implement the new advanced course over time without the penalties above which will be causing even more low moral and ineffectiveness throughout the force.

Long Gone

Only in Ireland - A complete joke of a country......:mad:

Awkward Badger

realies wrote: »

If caught driving outside the rules of the road and stopped by the Traffic Corps, gardai will also face fines and penalty points — just like other drivers, they have been told.causing even more low moral and ineffectiveness throughout the force.

Never gonna happen though is it ?

Well ... if they haven't done the advanced training they may not be able to handle situations like that and how to hopefully avoid causing collisions and other injuries in the course of their duties
Kinda makes sense, the only thing then is trying to make sure they all get it done asap

phasers

If caught driving outside the rules of the road and stopped by the Traffic Corps, gardai will also face fines and penalty points — just like other drivers, they have been told.

Yeah right!

Myrddin

bluewolf wrote: »

Well ... if they haven't done the advanced training they may not be able to handle situations like that and how to hopefully avoid causing collisions and other injuries in the course of their duties
Kinda makes sense, the only thing then is trying to make sure they all get it done asap

Exactly, those who haven't done the course won't be driving the cars/vans...simple as.

wazky

The Guards do their best to get family/friends off penalty points and fines, now they want us to believe they will themselves penalty points?

Is it the first of April already?

mickydoomsux

Yes, let's make it even harder for the police to do their job properly.

HurtLocker

phasers wrote: »

Yeah right!

phasers wrote: »

Yeah right!

You could now call the traffic corp and complain with the reg of the car and they should if possible check the dash cam in the gardai car in question at the time?


Tbh they are pointing out the worst scenarios. But I have to admit it annoys me to see a guard yapping away on the phone while driving when he'd pull me over for the very same thing and claim he was doing it to protect me.

The anti speeding "road safety" gobeens crying about speeding and any rule breaking kills and calling for more and more penalties and enforcement caused this and now have crippled the police force. Thank them. The gardai have been a platform for RSA and gaybo so now if this is true they must play by the rules they love to advertise.

Won't it be funny when a gard has to patiently wait behind a tractor on a call. Road Safety gone nuts. Of course this being a police force the good gards will still stand behind the bad gards for the sake of unity and I doubt much any gard will be pulled over. That said will they release figures of gardai caught during their famous blitzes?

Does this mean gards can't pull people over who are speeding if they are too far ahead?

SCOOP 64

But if the car thiefs also read these new rules and also stop at red lights to make it more sporting when being chased by guards then all is fair.

Badly Drunk Boy

No, it's okay because the CUI have agreed that their members will also abide by these guidelines. The CUI (Criminals Union of Ireland) have stated that these measures are for the safety of the general public so they must be adhered to.

Collie D

bluewolf wrote: »

Well ... if they haven't done the advanced training they may not be able to handle situations like that and how to hopefully avoid causing collisions and other injuries in the course of their duties
Kinda makes sense, the only thing then is trying to make sure they all get it done asap

Indeed. Some posters getting overly hysterical over nothing. I am surprised this wasn't always the case to be honest. You wouldn't hand a gun to a Guard without him having passed some examination so why let him get involved in high speed pursuits without having completed an advanced driving course?

Can anyone do this advanced training course?

If they can, why doesn't anyone who would like to join the guards just do the course and increase their chances of being succesful with their application.

HurtLocker

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

But if the car thiefs also read these new rules and also stop at red lights to make it more sporting when being chased by guards then all is fair.

How can regular gards now pull people for breaking red lights?

Awkward Badger

Gardai are being instructed to attend a one-day course and, if they pass, are given forms known as CBD1 (competency-based driving 1). Only drivers who have completed the three to four-week advanced course — now known as CBD2 — are allowed to speed and use their sirens and lights when driving.

However, sources say the garda driving school has been run down over recent years to the extent that only a handful of gardai at a time are in training.
- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/gardai-ordered-to-stop-at-red-lights-while-chasing-suspects-30427155.html#sthash.u50D3fCM.dpuf

Hopefully this will get things improved with the training of the Gardai on the 4 week advanced course to get more Gardai up to the standard they should be at anyway when responding to situations.

kingchess

the gardai could take the bus to the crime scene or accident scene if traffic is heavy,

Sheeps

I think it's a good idea. Gardaí are just ordinary muppets like the rest of us. Why should the be allowed take massive risks while driving with out the proper training? It's quite naive to think that just because someone is driving a garda car, that they are in any way competent at driving it. When you think of how many of your friends who don't drive or who are not as confident behind the wheel but can drive, and then think that the Gardaí is a job like any other. All this will do is result in a better trained work force because it is obviously not sustainable to have a police force with these kind of limitations.

Duiske

For those saying it's ridiculous, whats actually ridiculous is that there are Gardai being allowed to get involved in high speed chases when they do not have the necessary training for high speed driving. Anyway, this threat to hold untrained Garda drivers to the same rules as the rest of us is designed to cause a public outcry, and get the Government to sort out the mess that is Garda driver training. Its never going to happen that a Garda responding to an emergency call will be done for speeding, breaking a red light or whatever.

Remmy

In extenuating circumstances when chasing a perp,if the passenger was to say "punch it" then they no longer are required to abide by the rules of the rude

SEPT 23 1989

I thought high speed chases went out with armed robberies

Luke92

bluewolf wrote: »

Well ... if they haven't done the advanced training they may not be able to handle situations like that and how to hopefully avoid causing collisions and other injuries in the course of their duties
Kinda makes sense, the only thing then is trying to make sure they all get it done asap

I'm sure you will change your attitude if you're ever in a situation where you need the guards quickly. They show up an hour later saying they got caught at all the lights!

Tail Docker

So what? Feck off and train them - get the advanced driving course done, simple as. Tough if it costs.

If I want to put a lad onto a mini-digger, he has to do an expensive course, if I want to hire someone, they have to do dopey manual handling courses, safepass, and god knows what else. These cost a fortune, they are not optional and I have to suck it up and pay for them. If the state want to hire people to drive around chasing people, feck off and train them for it.

Why should one set of rules apply to us and one to them? And while they're at it, fit car phone kits - we have to, why don't they, sure "using a phone while driving is deadly dangerous" - what does the blue shirt do? Give you superpowers?? They're expensive and awkward?? Yeah, they are, tough. Ye made the rules, abide by them as well. Otherwise, it's what's commonly known as "hypocrisy" which is allegedly bad..

smellmepower

Be no harm to have more Gardai out walking the beat or on bikes,as opposed to driving around three/four to a car.

Incredible that the training period for a student Garda here is so long in comparison to just about any other police force,yet the completion of an advanced driving course isn't mandatory before passing out.Typically Irish.

SpaceTime

I suppose they're just all going to have to do the advanced driving course.

You'd think they'd have had a phase in period over maybe 2 years to get eeveryone trained up tho.

Rothmans

smellmepower wrote: »

Be no harm to have more Gardai out walking the beat or on bikes,as opposed to driving around three/four to a car.

Incredible that the training period for a student Garda here is so long in comparison to just about any other police force,yet the completion of an advanced driving course isn't mandatory before passing out.Typically Irish.

Not anymore. There will be fully attested Gardaí coming out of Templemore after 32 weeks training now, as opposed to the 2 years that it previously was.

the culture of deference

it doesn't really matter anyway.

they catch people all the time, waste hours processing them, release on bail, waste more hours when eventually its comes back to court, with free legal aid, meanwhile the person on bail keeps breaking the law, and nothing happens.

Maphisto

This is a non story. Of course you won't let the average Gard with average driving skills do other than observe the rules of the road.

To those saying ridiculous/only in Ireland/blah blah, how would you feel if someone you care about is in collision with an untrained Garda who jump the lights for whatever reason they thought warranted it at the time?

Tail Docker

Maphisto wrote: »

This is a non story. Of course you won't let the average Gard with average driving skills do other than observe the rules of the road.

To those saying ridiculous/only in Ireland/blah blah, how would you feel if someone you care about is in collision with an untrained Garda who jump the lights for whatever reason they thought warranted it at the time?

For those who used to frequent a certain W,Dublin car auction, they will attest to the amount of utterly mangled Garda cars that used to come in every month. They crash the same as other mere mortals. Slapping Blue lights on the roof does not suddenly turn you into Lewis Hamilton.

SpaceTime

From what I gather police elsewhere are fairly well trained in this area. It's considered fairly fundamental.

It's got to be taken seriously for the sake of all involved.

Maphisto

SpaceTime wrote: »

From what I gather police elsewhere are fairly well trained in this area. It's considered fairly fundamental.

It's got to be taken seriously for the sake of all involved.

Well there's advanced driving in the UK too, not everyone does it or passes it. Remember the old Panda Cars. They were specifically not pursuit or anything else cars. They were only scrapped in a smoke and mirrors trick by the government. Majority of what police do is when they get there not charging around in fast cars.

smellmepower

Rothmans wrote: »

Not anymore. There will be fully attested Gardaí coming out of Templemore after 32 weeks training now, as opposed to the 2 years that it previously was.

That's good news,though I'd imagine it was a decision based around budgetary constraints and a rush to get more boots on the ground due to falling force strength more than anything else.

Students coming out of Templemore for the last 15/20 years not to have an advance driving course done after two years training is still ridiculous in itself.

Cantremember

The idiocy of the "doing the course" mentality. Is there an advanced way to go through a red light? Bull****. You slow down and check, and with siren and lights you'll make it across. It's common sense. Trying to codify common sense and good local judgement is the curse of our era. There will be fewer guards on duty: they'll all be off "doing the course".

Sheeps

Cantremember wrote: »

The idiocy of the "doing the course" mentality. Is there an advanced way to go through a red light? Bull****. You slow down and check, and with siren and lights you'll make it across. It's common sense. Trying to codify common sense and good local judgement is the curse of our era. There will be fewer guards on duty: they'll all be off "doing the course".

Sure the army don't need weapons training either. It's common sense, point it at the enemy and pull the trigger. Easy right? They'll probably be all of doing the course. We'll be invaded.

HurtLocker

Cantremember wrote: »

The idiocy of the "doing the course" mentality. Is there an advanced way to go through a red light? Bull****. You slow down and check, and with siren and lights you'll make it across. It's common sense. Trying to codify common sense and good local judgement is the curse of our era. There will be fewer guards on duty: they'll all be off "doing the course".

Aren't the rules of the road a codified version of common sense? The overwhelming majority could handle driving without endangering others when the drink limits were higher, no penelty points and when they could use their phones. I was in the states recently where phone use is still legal and you'd wonder why it's such a big deal here. That's because the majority had enough common sense to use them appropriately over there. We've adapted a black and white approach which the gards enforced. It's about time they drove within the law.

Every road law passed is an attempt to codify common sense prime example being penalty points for seatbelts. The gards were exempt. It's nice to see they won't be anymore and practice what they preach

_Kaiser_

If caught driving outside the rules of the road and stopped by the Traffic Corps, gardai will also face fines and penalty points — just like other drivers, they have been told.

Surrrreee they will! It'd cause civil war in AGS if that actually happened!

But ok, let's assume they actually did get points. All they need to do is get their mate upstairs to quash them. Just throw him a few quid to cover the fine he might get...

Two senior members of the Gardai have been given hefty fines for wrongly quashing penalty points.

The inquiry found evidence of favouritism by gardai in quashing points, with many others fined for lesser amounts.

(source)

No fear of losing your job or facing criminal charges and jail time there! That's only for the "peasants"!
Don't ya just feel safe at night knowing you're "protected" by this old boys network/private security force for the well connected! :rolleyes:

El Weirdo

Luke92 wrote: »

I'm sure you will change your attitude if you're ever in a situation where you need the guards quickly. They show up an hour later saying they got caught at all the lights!

And I'd imagine you'd change yours when an untrained Garda ploughs into the side of your car whilst taking part in a high speed chase.

Manic Moran

Where I am right now, Nevada, I cannot drive one of our vehicles at all because it is equipped with blue lights. Even if I don't turn them on. I have to do the EVOC (emergency vehicles operator's course) before I can sign out the keys. That said, the course is only a week, I'm not sure what 4 weeks will do for you if it's worth that much more expense.

Cantremember

Sheeps wrote: »

Sure the army don't need weapons training either. It's common sense, point it at the enemy and pull the trigger. Easy right? They'll probably be all of doing the course. We'll be invaded.

Driving and automatic weapons .... Ok.

Amirani

Long Gone wrote: »

Only in Ireland - A complete joke of a country......:mad:

If this is "only in Ireland", then we have some of the most enlightened policy makers in the world. :eek:

However, I think you'll find the police forces in most countries can only do things they've been trained to do safely. Gun training, high speed driving etc. Of course though, you'll come out with the "only in Ireland" malarkey despite not having a clue one way or the other.

Little CuChulainn

Nobody is going to argue that it is a bad idea to have Gardai trained to drive at high speeds but that's not really the issue. The issue is this policy has been introduced before the training has been done. So now there will be a massive shortage of drivers who can respond to incidents and there is no increase in driving courses. In fact, the length and difficulty of existing courses has been increased so the number of Gardaí trained will increase even slower than before.

Amirani

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Nobody is going to argue that it is a bad idea to have Gardai trained to drive at high speeds but that's not really the issue. The issue is this policy has been introduced before the training has been done. So now there will be a massive shortage of drivers who can respond to incidents and there is no increase in driving courses. In fact, the length and difficulty of existing courses has been increased so the number of Gardaí trained will increase even slower than before.

I really hate reports like that in the Independent. What does "the vast majority" mean? Can they not give some sort of rough figures. This could relate to anything from 70% for example to 99%, which would be a huge difference in terms of the impact this would have.

Knob Longman

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Yes, let's make it even harder for the police to do their job properly.

They are not doing the jobs they should be doing anyway...;)

Raiding Growhouses while ignoring Heroin is not police work ,Its a farce..

oak5548

bluewolf wrote: »

Well ... if they haven't done the advanced training they may not be able to handle situations like that and how to hopefully avoid causing collisions and other injuries in the course of their duties
Kinda makes sense, the only thing then is trying to make sure they all get it done asap

The thing is, it wont be trained up to standard asap. They can hardly afford to train them in anything else let alone this, so its just going to be put on the long finger.
Its a step in the right direction, but bringing it in so suddenly is going to cripple the gardai and presumably other emergency services no doubt. I dont think a lot of people seem to understand this.

I doubt any of them will abide by it anyway. Would a gard just sit back and let people get away because a red light? I dont think so, the pressure will be put on him to police properly by the higher ups, but when and if something goes wrong they wont be backed up at all and be in trouble.

Little CuChulainn

Diego Simeone wrote: »

I really hate reports like that in the Independent. What does "the vast majority" mean? Can they not give some sort of rough figures. This could relate to anything from 70% for example to 99%, which would be a huge difference in terms of the impact this would have.

I doubt even the organisation knows how much this will affect things. If they did, they would never have brought in these new rules. It's just another example of the disconnect between management and members on the front line. This isn't about chasing some joyrider. The helicopter does that most of the time. This is about getting to emergencies where people are in physical danger. It won't be as noticeable in Dublin but it will definitely be noticeable in the rest of the country.

One thing I don't get is how they plan on prosecuting the Gardaí who break the rules. The exemption from things like traffic lights and driving in bus lanes is set out in law. It can't really be taken away without a change in the law.

Little CuChulainn

oak5548 wrote: »

The thing is, it wont be trained up to standard asap. They can hardly afford to train them in anything else let alone this, so its just going to be put on the long finger.
Its a step in the right direction, but bringing it in so suddenly is going to cripple the gardai and presumably other emergency services no doubt. I dont think a lot of people seem to understand this.

I doubt any of them will abide by it anyway. Would a gard just sit back and let people get away because a red light? I dont think so, the pressure will be put on him to police properly by the higher ups, but when and if something goes wrong they wont be backed up at all and be in trouble.

This is what it boils down to. They are going to put Gardaí in a position where they have to decide between helping someone or obeying the rules of the road. This is a horrible position to be put in. They will expect members to break the rules in order to do their job and happily discipline them afterwards. Members have started refusing to drive until they are given the course. It's all very well saying this is good but many more lives will be put at risk than when a Garda could go through a light because of how this will cripple the force.

oak5548

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I doubt even the organisation knows how much this will affect things. If they did, they would never have brought in these new rules. It's just another example of the disconnect between management and members on the front line. This isn't about chasing some joyrider. The helicopter does that most of the time. This is about getting to emergencies where people are in physical danger. It won't be as noticeable in Dublin but it will definitely be noticeable in the rest of the country.

One thing I don't get is how they plan on prosecuting the Gardaí who break the rules. The exemption from things like traffic lights and driving in bus lanes is set out in law. It can't really be taken away without a change in the law.

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

This is what it boils down to. They are going to put Gardaí in a position where they have to decide between helping someone or obeying the rules of the road. This is a horrible position to be put in. They will expect members to break the rules in order to do their job and happily discipline them afterwards. Members have started refusing to drive until they are given the course. It's all very well saying this is good but many more lives will be put at risk than when a Garda could go through a light because of how this will cripple the force.

Yep, I just imagine its extremely frustrating for gardai when general public and people who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about start critisizing a part of their job that they've been doing fine for years and just say "tough" or "so what?". Its easy for them to say it, but imagine everyone hopping on the bandwagon about your own job and critisizing you?
Not so nice if they could only understand that.

InReality

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

But if the car thiefs also read these new rules and also stop at red lights to make it more sporting when being chased by guards then all is fair.

I've seen this on happen on TV - quite often actually .

Sir Arthur Daley

Do guards do training to say its permitted to use mobile phones while driving?

Knob Longman

smellmepower wrote: »

That's good news,though I'd imagine it was a decision based around budgetary constraints and a rush to get more boots on the ground due to falling force strength more than anything else.

Students coming out of Templemore for the last 15/20 years not to have an advance driving course done after two years training is still ridiculous in itself.

The cops in Police Academy probably got better training....:pac:

Tail Docker

oak5548 wrote: »

Yep, I just imagine its extremely frustrating for gardai when general public and people who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about start critisizing a part of their job that they've been doing fine for years and just say "tough" or "so what?". Its easy for them to say it, but imagine everyone hopping on the bandwagon about your own job and critisizing you?
Not so nice if they could only understand that.

If I don't have the correct training in place, the State will happily prosecute me to the full rigour of the law. If I get a new job and it needs a certain skillset that we don't have, I have to jump through their hoops to get those courses completed. And that applies to everyone. Businesses don't get a pass because they need to drive or operate somthing urgently or face severe losses, so why should the state get a pass?

They make the rules, so why shouldn't they be expected to then follow them? They don't let someone jump into a Dublin Bus and head off with only a car licence, why should they let someone jump into a fast car that is allowed jump lights, travvel at high speed and engage in chases? And if it is a dumb thing to bring in the rules they have, well then it's their dumbness, so they can sort it out. God knows, they have enough staff and money to do it, they just need to decide it is a priority, as opposed to pi55ing it up a wall on somthing else.

C.K Dexter Haven

Awkward Badger wrote: »

Never gonna happen though is it ?

No. It won't. Complete nonsense and a non- story.


But...maybe a major legal loophole that needs to be plugged. I can see lots of legs...

..no wait..,legal chalk energies ......


...er no, that was my auto correct taking over....

..,what I meant to say was legal challenges . There I said it!

Legal Chalk Energies! Yep!

What's the score? Still nill all?