A New Career Decision

The Red

Hi Everyone!

I am a graphic designer. A print graphic designer in reality, with web design experience and I am considering a career change to software/app/game development (not sure which I will end up in) or maybe UI design.

I work in the midlands for low enough money and I have about 5 years experience in graphic design. I have been creating interactive PDFs for clients (calculating, data gathering, java scripts, various basic fun features) and it gave me a small taste of what it might be like to develop something using code. I found that I enjoyed (and was apparently good at) problem solving and communicating to clients as it developed. So I began questioning if this was something I should begin pursuing?

The print design industry is VERY tedious atm and web design is soo over saturated with cowboy web designer/developers that I dont have any heart here anymore. I am a creative type and so I think if I branch out into development I can eventually meld the two and become a valuable back end developer and UI designer.

SO, tl:dr... what is the app development industry like in Ireland right now? And is the salary worth risking a complete career change for (young family, 2 young kids, wife on social welfare, rent)?
I would have to take a year out and join the final year of a higher degree in software development.

Sorry for the long winded message but I dont know where else to ask...

If anyone has any advice or links to employment councillors etc please let me know..


Thanks everyone,

I.

beauf

The Red wrote: »

....software/app/game development (not sure which I will end up in) or maybe UI design...

Thats a bit like asking I want to join the building trade and not sure if I want to be a plumber, electrician or carpenter each one reguiring a 4yr + apprenticeship. They are very different disciplines.

Theres are a huge gap in knowledge and skill-set between the scripting you do as a graphic/web design and a developer. I don't think you appreciate that. You're not going to skip 3 yrs of software development and doing in 4th yr.

If you want to work in small companies doing a bit of everything, you can do that, but that experience is not so different from graphics companies.

Do you have a primary degree. If you might be able to take up an evening 2yr masters, or diploma that you can convert.

Have you at the jobs in the areas you are looking at, and look at the qualifications they are asking for. That's where I'd start with your research.

The Red

beauf wrote: »

Thats a bit like asking I want to join the building trade and not sure if I want to be a plumber, electrician or carpenter each one reguiring a 4yr + apprenticeship. They are very different disciplines.

Theres are a huge gap in knowledge and skill-set between the scripting you do as a graphic/web design and a developer. I don't think you appreciate that. You're not going to skip 3 yrs of software development and doing in 4th yr.

If you want to work in small companies doing a bit of everything, you can do that, but that experience is not so different from graphics companies.

Do you have a primary degree. If you might be able to take up an evening 2yr masters, or diploma that you can convert.

Have you at the jobs in the areas you are looking at, and look at the qualifications they are asking for. That's where I'd start with your research.

Hi Beauf. Yeah I appreciate that they are very different disciplines. I will be going from a ord. degree in design and communications and I will be taking 9 months off to prepare to go back to a follow on year or two in software development. I have a friend who is the lecturer in the masters deg. in an IT college near me and he reckons I can get in. I will be starting fresh with this career choice but I will draw whatever I can from my previous discipline as a designer. But I am still unsure as to which direction to take and I will decide that prior to leaving my current job and starting the 9 month training prep period. I will have an intensive 9 month study regime created by my lecturer friend and according to him app development is the way to go and that he is confident that I will be well prepare to join the course by then. So, back on track... Do u think it is an industry that is worth making this life changing decision for? Or what area of development would you recommend is a better choice? Thanks in advance, Ian.

Digital Society

What are your options course wise?

What colleges are near you? How long are you expecting to spend in college? What do YOU actually want to do? What does your friend mean by you can get in? Get in to what exactly?

The Red

Ok, so basically, I expressed an interest in app development to him and knowing my background (I got my degree in the same college) he basically is convinced that I can join the final year of this course http://www.ait.ie/aboutaitandathlone/courses/benghonsinsoftwareengineering/ that he is a lecturer of.

I stated that I dont have the experience to join it but he reckons that he can prepare me to do it over the course of 9 months intensive study at home that he will provide. Including languages, projects, producing apps for real clients for cost price and all that. And the degree I already have will help to get me into the course with a bit of persuasion from himself.

So I would be aiming for the app development with the first 9 month "pre course" that he will provide me, then I will make further decisions based on the experience I gain during that process.

House of Blaze

Seems a reasonable plan I guess.

That's handy enough that they offer the 'fourth' year that makes up the honours degree separately (presumably as a follow on to the ordinary level, 3 year, NFQ level 7 course).

If you've done a reasonable amount of web development with javascript, PHP etc. and you grasp a few key topics that apply in that domain you could probably get through the course easy enough. I would reckon you would still need to fill a few holes in your knowledge that come through from doing the full four years but it's possible with time of course.

There's loads of background stuff in advanced software engineering that would be a pretty big disadvantage not to have a solid grounding in. Things like multi-threading and all the low level memory management stuff you pick up from earlier programming modules are a large part mobile development due to the processing restraints that exist on mobile hardware / os architectural concerns i'm given to understand.

Performance and complexity of your code come into it in a serious way for the same reason. These wouldn't really be analogous to a whole lot you'd find in general web development (at least broadly speaking in my, admittedly limited knowledge). But if there's one quality you would want to have to be comfortable as a developer, it would be a willingness to spend your life learning new tech all the time!

Even while I was in college I was trying to learn best practices etc. that you wouldn't find on the course anyway. Design patterns etc.
Bottom line though is you can prob pass the course handy enough!

Anyway, just a few thoughts I had, I am by no means a professional yet though, so take it as you will!

beauf

I moved from design to development over time, and I think I've only met one other person who has done it. You get a few who move from design to webdesign and a bit of UX, but a programmer wouldn't consider it development. I'd done a lot (couple of years) of development projects before I switched to pure development. Even now I'd consider myself a programmer-lite because I don't have the background that a CompSci degree gives you. Employers are looking for experience and a good degree and more. So I think not having (2yrs college is a long way short) that will be a severe disadvantage for development jobs. You might get lighter roles. But the problem with that is getting a decent salary. I suspect the environment in those smaller roles will a lot similar to the design roles you're tired of. Maybe its easier now, but I don't think there is a shortage of IT people. There is a shortage of experienced and highly skilled IT people. Big difference. Perhaps I'm wrong, I've not been active in the Job market for a long time.

But hey you'll never know till you try it. I got into development the exactly wrong way to do it. So its not impossible.

Digital Society

It would seem very strange to me that someone can skip straight to 4th year just because they know a lecturer. Didnt think that was possible.

My main concern with that route would be missing out on years of the basics. What you will be doing is a 9 month course on how to pass 4th year rather than a catch up with all the other years and have a well rounded education.

If it all works out fair enough but scraping a pass in 4th year and having just 1 year of Software on your CV wouldnt be great. You definitely need to be averaging about 70 and building a strong Portfolio at the same time.

counterpointaud

Recently started my first software development role after a career change that involved 3 years of college, and I would highly recommend it.

Just to offer an alternative though, there is (or so it appears to me anyway) to be a bit of a lack of experienced designers with experience in things like CSS and XAML. Look on LinkenIn for roles such as UI Designer and UX Designer for examples.

beauf

Is the term designer misleading? increasingly those roles are primarily coding. I only see programmers doing it v anyway.

counterpointaud

There is some knowledge required, but the separation of concerns offered by MVC / MVVM etc means that it is possible to keep design work pretty separated from the rest of the system.

beauf

Maybe I wrong but reading some of those job specs they seem to be aimed at coders not graphics people who do a bit of scripting.

The Red

Hi guys sorry for my absence, so Ive been reading your posts and you guys are very right, I think I might be aiming too high with my expectations on this... so do you all think transferring from design to UI or UX design would be more beneficial and achievable than software development or ios/android app development?
Perhaps the 2 year window could be used to train up on languages, programs and UI design skills? I have strong design skills and strong experience in the adobe suite so the UI design side would be pretty familiar to me... but I think I can do more! perhaps some language skills?

Of your experience in the field, what discipline is there a real need for out there? Would a UI designer role be too specific? Should I be looking into something to learn basic coding and then move into UI design, there for specialising in UI design but having the knowledge of some backend?

Can anyone clarify this? This route would definitely be easier for me but Im afraid of making such a dramatic change just to realise Im on the career level with no hope for advancement as I am in print design.


Again, thanks sooooooo much for the help. It is life changing.

The Red

Just looking there and UI Developer seems to be a good choice for me... would this make sense? Does this take in development and UI design?

House of Blaze

Hi Red!

I think it would be helpful if you narrowed down what it is you really want to get out of a career change.

If you are purely looking for more lucrative work, and are prepared to work at it / take the long term approach then pure development isn't completely out of the picture.

If you are just looking to change up your work and try something new then UI or UX design could be more your thing.

As a print designer you will be familiar with a lot of what UI / UX design is all about in terms of visual and information hierarchies, gestalt perception, colour theory, skeumorphism etc.

UI and UX design merely add the extra interactivity provided by the web into the mix for design in general. You'll get to know about affordances and interaction flow, how to draw attention to calls to action on a website, mental models etc.

There are definitely lucrative jobs in this area as well though, especially at the higher end of the scale.

I would imagine that it would be a lot easier to ease into UI / UX from a pure design background but I wouldn't count on there being a huge amount (if any) of development involved as pretty much anything other than a one man operation will try their best to specialise their workforce and separate the two issues.

Development requires a different set of skills but that's not to say it isn't a satisfying or creative job, it would just require a bigger leap to get into.

The Red

Thanks Blaze, so I basically have a 2 year window of time to make whatever career advancement I can. I am going from a print design (with some elements of development) to whatever I can.

I really want to advance into purely digital and I have some experience with creating interactive PDFs using some Javascript etc, that gave me the push to want to change my career. I really liked what I had achieved even if it was only something small. I have strong photshop skills and great problem solving drive.

But I am open to ideas regarding where I would be best suited for and am willing to spend every waking minute studying from my home office in whatever language and discipline I need to in order to create a new skill set to advance my profession.

I get the impression that if I stuck to pure UI design, that I would be cutting myself short and I could add the development to the mix. Or should I strongly develop just the design side and really specialise in it, giving myself a better chance in the market?

The Red

I guess I am really looking to change up my job as you put it, but I really need to make sure I can earn a decent wage in it too, my payscale right now is still in the very late 20's / very early 30's and even if that advances soon, it wont go up very much higher anytime soon...



So with 3 dependents, I need to do something now or risk getting stuck in a rut.

The Red

I wonder would app deveopment be as intensive as full software development?

Would android/ios development be out of reach for someone like me to get into at this stage given my circumstances?

I think thats where I really want to be at heart...

Graham

The Red wrote: »

I wonder would app deveopment be as intensive as full software development?

App development IS full software development.

House of Blaze

Hi Red!

To answer your question, app development is definitely full software development, as you put it. And in many case can even be more so than if you were to develop a desktop application.

Since the android platform uses primarily Java and to a lesser extent C / C++ as their core language, you would without a doubt need to become knowledgeable in the principles of classes and objects, object oriented design, software design patterns, the various data types and data structures that go with the language in addition to the principles of software application architecture, client server interaction and database design / architecture and implementation. Also, as I mentioned before, due to the restrictions placed on mobile hardware there are further areas that would require study and work in order to become proficient at.

IOS uses objective C as it's main language (as far as I am aware) and the same applies. None of these are trivial topics and require a lot of work to get up to speed on. It was three years in college before I really even had a firm understanding of object oriented design for example, and there is always more to learn.

None of it would outside your reach as you put it. But it will certainly take an awful lot longer and lot more work to bring yourself up to a marketable position in employment terms. (Trust me!)

Web development in contrast is often viewed in software engineering circles as a sort of 'development lite' as the core languages are HTML etc. which are basically markup languages.

Javascript of course is different, and is a fully fledged programming language capable of object oriented design etc. but you will find that the use of javascript in broad, general terms in web design boils down to adding layers of interactivity and visual flair to web based content.

Of course there is much more to it. But that's one of the big uses Javascript has found on the web.

So if you feel you're up to the challenge and want to make a go of it then by all means go and download eclipse and the android IDE and have at it! If you are looking for some learning materials you can PM me and I could sort you out with a ton of programming books that cover all manner of topics. Just be aware that your current skill set will not be of as much use to you in this department is all I would say.

The Red

So the general consensus here is that for me to develop into say, creating apps for ios/android, I am looking at 3-4 years in college?

I am finding a lot of info online to say that there isnt that much involved in the process and that it can be relatively easy to do.

Now before you all strangle me, I mean I was under the impression that with intensive work and study, I could be learning the languages and creating working apps in under 2 years?

What am I missing? (please dont take this as being smartarsed, I genuinely am not knowlegeable on this yet)

The Red

Ha sorry I just posted this as you posted your last one Blaze...

House of Blaze

The Red wrote: »

So the general consensus here is that for me to develop into say, creating apps for ios/android, I am looking at 3-4 years in college?

Not necessarily no! Sure that's the way most do it, but there are plenty of people coming from web development into app development. It all depends on your aptitude and work rate as far as how quickly you progress.

College is useful because it provides the one thing you can't get on the internet or from self study which is structure, to your education. (Being able to ask very experienced and knowledgeable lecturers questions in person is also incredibly useful!)

I am finding a lot of info online to say that there isnt that much involved in the process and that it can be relatively easy to do.

Now before you all strangle me, I mean I was under the impression that with intensive work and study, I could be learning the languages and creating working apps in under 2 years?

It's possible of course. Hell you can have a basic app running from following a tutorial in a couple of hours if you were so inclined, but I wouldn't expect your capabilities to be marketable, or the products you produce to be of high quality.

It's like saying "carpentry is easy anyone can do it" and sure enough anyone can work a saw or hammer, but what sort of table or house or whatever are you going to be able to build after only two years?

I mean if I write:

<html>
    <body>
       
         <h1>Hello World!</h1>

    </body>
</html>

I have basically created a webpage. But that doesn't mean I will get a job as a web developer or that my 'website' will be worth anything!

The Red

Ok thanks for the quick reply Blaze, I think this is exactly what my lecturer friend is talking about. He reckons I would need to learn Java and begin working on the IDE within the first few months and then begin working on projects as fast as possible. He also said he can provide loads of course notes and materials to help. (but Ill keep you in mind for stuff too He is of the impression that with extreme home study and a lot of drive, he can prepare me for the course for september '15.

In actuality he reckons that I shouldnt do the course at all and that I should keep going with the study and working for cost price on project for companies as experince as the course has a lot of non relative work involved that I should bypass...

The Red

Hmm... this is a tough one.. so I wonder if my timeline is not really strong enough? Should I stick with the UI design and try to excel at that?

Is there a strong enough market for UI design alone?


What would people suggest?

The Red

Would these type courses be good? https://www.udemy.com/become-an-android-developer-from-scratch/

I know it comes across as hokey but maybe they would be useful?

House of Blaze

That kind of course is not worth the money in my opinion anyway.

It appears to be 120 videos averaging about 5-6 minutes in length for €300.

So that's approximately 600 minutes of video @ €0.50 per hour.

Although if you have the money to spare and are dead set on app development it could be a nice jumping on point.

It would cover all the basics but not to any degree of depth, and would be nothing that you couldn't pick up simply from reading the android documentation.

You could probably even find enough youtube videos to cover most of these.

But it does give you an idea into what is involved in app development.

I would suggest just reading through the android documentation for a day or two and seeing how you get on. Not even working on anything, just getting your head around the concepts. If your brain is completely melted by the end of it then you may have your answer!

beauf

The Red wrote: »

Thanks Blaze, so I basically have a 2 year window of time to make whatever career advancement I can. I am going from a print design (with some elements of development) to whatever I can.

...


I get the impression that if I stuck to pure UI design, that I would be cutting myself short and I could add the development to the mix. Or should I strongly develop just the design side and really specialise in it, giving myself a better chance in the market?

UX/UI is the closest thing to what you are doing. Development is the furthest. Getting away from the graphics BS and getting paid better will happen the further you move from graphics and closer to development.

Graphics>UX/UI>Development

I wonder though if you don't need to try go do some coding yourself. Like build a simple database and webpage that can read and write to the database without using any graphics. doesn't matter if you use a book, short course or online tutorials to do it. But to see if you have the desire to get it working, or does it bore you to tears.

You'd have to consider is your location a problem, that there's BS in development as well. There also an almost exact opposite mindset in working in development to graphics which is hard to explain. In graphics its all about the big picture. In development its all about the tiny details. You won't understand that unless you've done both.

At the end of the day. You can do anything you want if you are determined enough. If you do try development and don't like it you can always switch back. You'd be a better UI/UX design if you have experience of both.

House of Blaze

Also, there are intro coding courses at http://www.codecademy.com/learn which cover a few different things and will give you a taste for coding in general you may want to try.

The Red

Ill definitely do that.


The bottom line: I am a graphic designer mostly in print and I want to go digital and make a difference to my career.

I would consider myself as pretty good at this sort of thing and I reckon I could do it, but I dont have the real world experience to know the industry and I am nervous about the risk I will need to take.

But thanks Beauf, I think you are right, I need to try more of the coding and get a feel for it. I think I will try to begin the first phase of developing my UI design training and mix in coding later. Then I have at least advanced my design skills. Then I will try to advance further with coding skills.

And thanks Blaze for the advice, I will perhaps come back to you in the future with requests again when I need some materials!


If anyone else has any further advice, I would of course love to hear it but I will proceed with this as a general plan for now.

Oh and also, If anyone has any links to online content that I might find useful, pleeease provide it, there is a LOT out there and I would like to see some recommendations as to which to use.



Thanks again all.

Ian.

counterpointaud

Said it here before a few times, but I am a big fan of Pluralsight.com for this. I know Lynda.com has some more design oriented content too.

The Red

Actually Ive used codacademy to learn some HTML and Css and I found it extremely rewarding, the issue for me was that I was doing it in my spare time (very little time, full time job and 2 baby girls) and it was hard to continue when I wasnt implementing the stuff I learned on a daily basis.

So I guess I know a little bit of what its like to code... I like it quite a bit.

Would this be a good indication of what would be in store with the likes of Java?

The Red

Also, does anyone here know of a good thread to ask someone about a Javascript I cant get to work?

Thanks.

House of Blaze

The Red wrote: »

Also, does anyone here know of a good thread to ask someone about a Javascript I cant get to work?

Thanks.

What's the issue?

I'll help if i can! Put your code in code tags when you post to make it appear properly.

The Red

Ok so, as I said, I am new to this stuff and I got this code somewhere to basically make a set of boxes appear after a set date in a PDF. They will be used to cover certain info that is already in the PDF.

The code:

<code>var now = new Date() ;
var expiration = new Date(16,july,2014) ;
if (now < expiration) {
this.getField("Cover").display = display.hidden ;
this.dirty = false ;
} else {
this.getField("Cover").display = display.visible ;
this.dirty = false ;
} </code>

The Red

I only changed the date and the title for the fields which are "buttons" in the Acrobat Fields creator.

House of Blaze

The Red wrote: »

Ok so, as I said, I am new to this stuff and I got this code somewhere to basically make a set of boxes appear after a set date in a PDF. They will be used to cover certain info that is already in the PDF.

The code:

var now = new Date() ;
var expiration = new Date(16,july,2014) ;
if (now < expiration) {
this.getField("Cover").display = display.hidden ;
this.dirty = false ;
} else { 
this.getField("Cover").display = display.visible ;
this.dirty = false ;
}

Just so you know, the code tags should be square ones like [ ] on boards!

So, is it that you want something to appear when the user has selected something and not appear if he hasn't?

If that's the case, then you should set the display to false by default, and then fire a function in response to the event that triggers when the user changes the value you wish to determine the visibility effect.

House of Blaze

Unless the if condition is contained within a loop and unless the now variable is incremented then that condition will never evaluate to true.

The Red

Sorry, I should be more clear... ok so, I have this set into the Open Page options, as they open the document, this script initiates and after a certain date, the entire PDF (15 pages of interactive fields, calculations and menus) are covered by "buttons" over the whole of each page, effectively "voiding" the document. All the user will see is a grey page with the term "Document is now void, Please contact admin" etc.

And yes, I know this is by FAR not a very effective way to void a PDF document after a certain period but its all I have atm and the users are NOT savvy enough to bother find a workaround.

But by all means if anyone had a better suggestion, I would LOVE to hear it. The client basically need it to "expire" after a certain date. Then they will issue out a fresh one with a new expiry.

The Red

And be aware that I am not very savvy myself on all of this, I am basically learning it as the client requests it.

House of Blaze

Well as it stands right now, you are initialising 'now' to be the current date when the document is opened and then initialising 'expiration' to be two days from now.

You then check to see if now is less than expiration and control visibility depending on that, however, since this runs immediately after they are initialised then now will always be less than expiration.

You need to keep checking the value of date and comparing it to expiration, and you need to increase the value of now as time goes on or else it will never become true.

The best way to do this is to use a loop to keep on checking the value of expiration. Also, possibly within the same loop even, you need to make sure now is increasing by some amount so that eventually, when it becomes the case that the value of now is greater than expiration, the loop will try and evaluate the expression and the condition will be satisfied.

Have you worked with loops before?

The Red

No, Im afraid not...

House of Blaze

The Red wrote: »

No, Im afraid not...

Never mind!

Another possibly easier way to do it, is to use Javascripts built in timing functions.

I'll post some code now in a sec to show you.

Have a look at this in the meantime. http://www.w3schools.com/js/js_timing.asp

The Red

You are a legend... seriously.

House of Blaze

No worries!

I would do it something like this anyway.

<script> 

var expired = new Date(16,july,2014)

var x = setInterval(function(){ isExpired(expired) },3600000);

function isExpired(dateToCheck) {
    var currentDate = new Date();

    if(currentDate > dateToCheck)
    {
         document.getElementByID("cover").style.display = "none";
    }

}

</script>

I'm not sure what the structure of your document is and I haven't used javascript on a pdf before but it would look something like the above anyway.

The Red

Nice one, really, will try this after lunch straight away, is there anything I need to edit before I try it?

Thanks a lot.

House of Blaze

This basically uses setinterval with a value of 3600000 (the number of milliseconds in an hour) to call repeatedly call another function called isExpired.

That function is then passed the expired variable which it then checks against a new date variable that is initialised every time the check is made.

So what this means is that: Every hour (3600000 milliseconds), pass the expired variable to isExpired.

isExpired then creates a new date (which will be one hour ahead in time each time this happens) and compares it to expired.

This will keep happening forever as I have not set a stop condition.

Eventually, the new date constructed in isExpired will be greater than the value of expired.

At that point, the element in your document with an ID of "cover" will have it's display value set to none.

House of Blaze

The Red wrote: »

Nice one, really, will try this after lunch straight away, is there anything I need to edit before I try it?

Thanks a lot.

You may need to depending on the structure of your document, but I can't tell you what that is!

House of Blaze

Oh and that date string is wrong. Should be:

Date("July 16, 2014 00:00:01" );

Provided you want it to expire at midnight.

The Red

AH! Very good, I wanted to include a time too, especially for testing. Thanks.

Going to test it now...

House of Blaze

Let me know how you get on!