Where did all the money go?

galwayredgirl

OK - We are all paying back the money that the banks lent developers to buy fields for millions which are now worthless along with the shoe boxes that were built on them.

Ireland inc owes €94 billion or something like that - but where did the money actually end up?

Are there a lot of farmers out there now with millions in their bank accounts?

arctictree

galwayredgirl wrote: »

OK - We are all paying back the money that the banks lent developers to buy fields for millions which are now worthless along with the shoe boxes that were built on them.

Ireland inc owes €94 billion or something like that - but where did the money actually end up?

Are there a lot of farmers out there now with millions in their bank accounts?

Yes, I know of a good few myself.

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller

Have you checked down the back of the sofa?

MagicIRL

It was given to little ****s for Communion and Confirmation money.

holystungun9

You don't know?? So what did you fill YOUR pool with then???

I am pie

We lost it all at the dogs one weekend in 2008.

jimgoose

Forget it. Like last year's snow, it's gone! :pac:

Birneybau

It's in Bill's house.

SEPT 23 1989

back to the Reichsbank

Geuze

galwayredgirl wrote: »

OK - We are all paying back the money that the banks lent developers to buy fields for millions which are now worthless along with the shoe boxes that were built on them.

Ireland inc owes €94 billion or something like that - but where did the money actually end up?

The Irish Govt owes 200 bn approx in public debt.

That's separate from private debt, which is also huge.

Lucifer MorningStar

It's just resting in the account

Ruu

Lucifer MorningStar wrote: »

It's just resting in the account

A good long rest, yeah.

Geuze

galwayredgirl wrote: »

OK - We are all paying back the money that the banks lent developers to buy fields for millions which are now worthless along with the shoe boxes that were built on them.

Are there a lot of farmers out there now with millions in their bank accounts?

The gross cost to recapitalise the banks was 64bn approx.

No senior bank bond was not repaid.

All bank liabilities were guaranteed by the State.

Snake

Okay so we put it in a deposit account with a maturity of 1.2% over 5 years, and it's gone.

shruikan2553

Maybe there was no money and we all thought there was.

Geuze

Here is a table of the costs of the banking crisis:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/-ZzsEgWCd3Og/UQwBDsKfS0I/AAAAAAAAJ2A/QTSja435ESY/Bank%252520Recapitalisation%252520Payments_thumb%25255B8%25255D.png?imgmax=800

Spent on jumbo breakfast rolls and diesel

Geuze

How do I get this PNG image

http://lh5.ggpht.com/-qJNTvp8aHRk/UQwAYzHFcXI/AAAAAAAAJ14/YQnmPlX847A/s1600-h/Bank%252520Recapitalisation%252520Payments%25255B10%25255D.png

into the post itself?

AnonoBoy

Birneybau wrote: »

It's in Bill's house.

What the hell is my money doing in your house Bill?

Awkward Badger

Geuze wrote: »

How do I get this PNG image

http://lh5.ggpht.com/-qJNTvp8aHRk/UQwAYzHFcXI/AAAAAAAAJ14/YQnmPlX847A/s1600-h/Bank%252520Recapitalisation%252520Payments%25255B10%25255D.png

into the post itself?

You can't embed images in After Hours.

galwayredgirl

Geuze wrote: »

Here is a table of the costs of the banking crisis:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/-ZzsEgWCd3Og/UQwBDsKfS0I/AAAAAAAAJ2A/QTSja435ESY/Bank%252520Recapitalisation%252520Payments_thumb%25255B8%25255D.png?imgmax=800

Yes but my understanding is as follows:

Developer borrows money from bank

Developer givers money to farmer for field

Developer borrows more money to build builds houses / flats etc.

Crash!

Only one with money = farmer

K-9

galwayredgirl wrote: »

OK - We are all paying back the money that the banks lent developers to buy fields for millions which are now worthless along with the shoe boxes that were built on them.

Ireland inc owes €94 billion or something like that - but where did the money actually end up?

Are there a lot of farmers out there now with millions in their bank accounts?

Probably some farmers all right. Some developers got out before the crash but many got caught too, profits and property tied up in the "next" big thing.

Geuze

galwayredgirl wrote: »

Yes but my understanding is as follows:

Developer borrows money from bank

Developer givers money to farmer for field

Developer borrows more money to build builds houses / flats etc.

Crash!

Only one with money = farmer

Yes, true, and plenty of landowners did make millions from land sales.

Geuze

Example

Sean Dunne buys three hotels in Ballsbridge for 350-400m, with a lot of borrowings.

The sellers still have the proceeds of the sale - they are immensely wealthy.

Property dev plans collapse - banks are left with huge bad loans.

Frank Lee Midere

galwayredgirl wrote: »

Yes but my understanding is as follows:

Developer borrows money from bank

Developer givers money to farmer for field

Developer borrows more money to build builds houses / flats etc.

Crash!

Only one with money = farmer

Definitely some farmers made off like bandits. Developers kept reinvesting - betting the farm every time.

As to where that money went? The banks which guatanteed the loans were effectively bankrupt, the banks (or senior bond holders ) who lent to them should have taken the hit but didn't. The money was nationalised so it is going to pay back the bond holders over the next 30 years.

Frank Lee Midere

Geuze wrote: »

Example

Sean Dunne buys three hotels in Ballsbridge for 350-400m, with a lot of borrowings.

The sellers still have the proceeds of the sale - they are immensely wealthy.

Property dev plans collapse - banks are left with huge bad loans.

The sellers were jury's. Yes that's true. Some money went to people with assets and land. Some is stilled owed to bond holders.

K-9

Geuze wrote: »

Example

Sean Dunne buys three hotels in Ballsbridge for 350-400m, with a lot of borrowings.

The sellers still have the proceeds of the sale - they are immensely wealthy.

Property dev plans collapse - banks are left with huge bad loans.

Indeed, IIRC the sellers then started buying up a lot of property at crash prices!

Another example was the guy who owned Choice/Quality hotels. Sold a good few of the hotels in 05/06 and made a fortune, but invested badly. The remaining hotels he owned ended up in NAMA I think.

ScumLord

I see what your getting at OP. There must be some bank or person at the top of the bank debt tree. If we can find that person and kill them it should have a knock on effect canceling out all debt, kind of like killing the original vampire.

Akrasia

Birneybau wrote: »

It's in Bill's house.

Hey, what the hell are you doing with my money at your house Fred?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Akrasia

Money was created by the banking sector to fuel the bubble
Money was destroyed in the economic crash when the 'value' of shares in banks and other investment vehicles collapsed. Hundreds of billions of euros were simply 'wiped off the balance sheet' of banks and hedge funds when investment portfolios collapsed.

Some very canny/lucky people in the middle sold high, kept the proceeds in cash and bough back their assets at fire sale prices.

Some other 'investors' lost all their money on bad investments but miraculously got repayed by idiots who threw money at them (the tax payers who bailed out unsecured bondholders)

Ash.J.Williams

we'll just invest a little here in a new decking, and we'l put a little in a second house, and it's gone.....

Maximus Alexander

galwayredgirl wrote: »

Where did all the money go?

An 80 year-old woman stuffed it all into her mattress and then one day when she was out with her granddaughter her kids came around to the house and threw out all of her old stuff, cleaned up the house, put in a new bathroom and changed the mattress on her bed.

They paid some man in a white van to take the old stuff away and dump it, and on revealing that she had stuffed €94bn into the mattress, a mad dash ensued where the whole family worked round the clock to recover the dumped mattress, combing recycling centers and landfills around Dublin.

Unfortunately, the woman's idiot son who still lived at home in his late 40s decided to get on to Joe Duffy and explain the whole predicament, offering a reward for the safe return of the mattress. Naturally, this just led to the bulk of the population spending their days combing landfill sites in an attempt to recover the lost loot for themselves.

The reality is that the mattress sits in the abandoned Boland's Mill in Grand Canal Dock having been dragged there by an unassuming homeless person for use as bedding. It will only be found if, by chance, someone happens to spot another mattress being pushed up to the gate in a shopping trolley and thinks to go and investigate.

So in short, we're screwed.

galwayredgirl

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

How did the farmer lose lots of money? He got paid - the bank got stung?

galwayredgirl

galwayredgirl wrote: »

How did the farmer lose lots of money? He got paid - the bank got stung?

He used the proceeds of the land sale to buy Bank Of Ireland shares - investing in the banks will never loose you money.

Edit: Or he got into property himself at the tail end of the boom - used the proceeds as a deposit on a block of flats in Mullingar, and had his capital wiped out.

Edit2: I know of a farmer who farmed sites and liked to be seen as a man of means - buying a new 4X4 every year with a new horsebox to match the colour and some nags to match. It doesn't last long that way.

I'm sure there are plenty of people sitting on cash piles but it's not €65,000,000,000

Ash.J.Williams

I know a farmer that invested in a beautiful sports car that he takes out on weekends and fills it with women!

galwayredgirl

Are billions of borrowed money sitting in former land owners accounts while the taxpayer pays the debts of builders who bought the land from them?

Yes, I know its the free market and there is such a thing as capital gains tax but it just doesn't seem very fair.

sheesh

galwayredgirl wrote: »

OK - We are all paying back the money that the banks lent developers to buy fields for millions which are now worthless along with the shoe boxes that were built on them.

Ireland inc owes €94 billion or something like that - but where did the money actually end up?

Are there a lot of farmers out there now with millions in their bank accounts?

there would be a number of farmers that got rich over it

I assume that alot of it went to building companies that were now defunct as in they were using it to service their own debts and then had to close down leaving debts unpaid.

some would have been invested in shares that lost value in the world wide financial crash e.g. anybody that invested in Anglo AIB and BOI or in the US financial sector would have been burned.

loads of it would have gone straight to the government in stamp duty development fees who spent it on stuff

another section would have been borrowed by individuals who bought overpriced property

and of course Sean Quinn

Rhys Essien

In the height of it,I remember hearing that 1 in every 150 people was a millionaire.~33,000 millionaire's in Ireland.

OP,Just to give you an idea how screwed we are,have a look at Irelands debt clock here.€179,885,000,000 as of this second.

http://www.financedublin.com/debtclock.php

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Maximus Alexander

galwayredgirl wrote: »

Are billions of borrowed money sitting in former land owners accounts while the taxpayer pays the debts of builders who bought the land from them?

Yes, I know its the free market and there is such a thing as capital gains tax but it just doesn't seem very fair.

Whatever money may or may not be sitting in a farmer's account due to the sale of their land is rightfully theirs and has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of us. They are not the bad guys here.

If you'd sold your house to someone who subsequently defaulted on their mortgage would you feel the need to give the money back in the interest of fairness?

Ash.J.Williams

galwayredgirl wrote: »

Are billions of borrowed money sitting in former land owners accounts while the taxpayer pays the debts of builders who bought the land from them?

Yes, I know its the free market and there is such a thing as capital gains tax but it just doesn't seem very fair.

can't really complain about people who bought and sold at the right time and didn't get carried away with it all.

galwayredgirl

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Whatever money may or may not be sitting in a farmer's account due to the sale of their land is rightfully theirs and has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of us. They are not the bad guys here.

If you'd sold your house to someone who subsequently defaulted on their mortgage would you feel the need to give the money back in the interest of fairness?

A lot to be said for Socialism - Oh wait, wasn't Bertie into socialism for a while? Maybe not such a good idea afterall!

Dravokivich

galwayredgirl wrote: »

A lot to be said for Socialism - Oh wait, wasn't Bertie into socialism for a while? Maybe not such a good idea afterall!

Na, that was socialising.

j8wk2feszrnpao

galwayredgirl wrote: »

Yes, I know its the free market and there is such a thing as capital gains tax but it just doesn't seem very fair.

I don't understand about it been "unfair". What exactly is unfair?
Person sells an item to a person who wants to buy it. Seems as fair as it gets.

There's always money in the banana stand

galwayredgirl

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I don't understand about it been "unfair". What exactly is unfair?
Person sells an item to a person who wants to buy it. Seems as fair as it gets.

Person borrows money + cant pay it back = Irish taxpayer paying it back = unfair

galwayredgirl

bluewolf wrote: »

There's always money in the banana stand

jimgoose

galwayredgirl wrote: »

A lot to be said for Socialism...

Whether or not Socialism seems like a good idea seems to depend very much on where a particular individual sits socio-economically. :pac:

j8wk2feszrnpao

galwayredgirl wrote: »

Person borrows money + cant pay it back = Irish taxpayer paying it back = unfair

Yes, but I don't know why you are focusing on the person who was selling.

galwayredgirl

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Yes, but I don't know why you are focusing on the person who was selling.

Bet you're loaded! Did ya sell the field for a fair whack?