Nepotism in primary jobs

DoctorBoo

A job was going in our local rural primary school. A number of candidates were called for interview. The job was awarded to the least experienced candidate - straight out of college with only teaching practice as teaching experience. The new (permanent) teacher's mother teaches in the school.
This state of affairs is completely unfair to the other candidates and is unsatisfactory for the children being taught - they have the right to have the best person for the job.
How widespread is this practice, and more importantly, what can be done about it?

Pwpane

Did she do her teaching practice there?

evolving_doors

DoctorBoo wrote: »

A job was going in our local rural primary school. A number of candidates were called for interview. The job was awarded to the least experienced candidate - straight out of college with only teaching practice as teaching experience. The new (permanent) teacher's mother teaches in the school.
This state of affairs is completely unfair to the other candidates and is unsatisfactory for the children being taught - they have the right to have the best person for the job.
How widespread is this practice, and more importantly, what can be done about it?

Nothing really unless any of the other candidates takes a case....

was the successful candidate from that area? Perhaps they were the only candidate to have gone to that school, therefore the interview board could take the view that they would 'embody the ethos' the most!

How widespread is it? Well I think its too easy to generalise but I could tell ya a few nepotism stories but I suppose we are moving from tge particular to the general which isn't that scientific. Suffice to say, I have never heard of a principal's offspring finding it difficult to secure employment straight out of teacher training (and even before that!). But I would leave that one open to be challanged by anyone else here.

DoctorBoo

Pwpane wrote: »

Did she do her teaching practice there?

I think so, but other candidates have also taught there.

DoctorBoo

Armelodie wrote: »

Nothing really unless any of the other candidates takes a case....

was the successful candidate from that area? Perhaps they were the only candidate to have gone to that school, therefore the interview board could take the view that they would 'embody the ethos' the most!

At least one of the other candidates would also fulfil that criteria.

gaeilgebeo

DoctorBoo wrote: »

This state of affairs is completely unfair to the other candidates and is unsatisfactory for the children being taught - they have the right to have the best person for the job.

What's to say she isn't the best person for the job????
Lots of teachers got jobs straight out of college. It doesn't make them any less of a teacher.
Yes, it's a pity for those who may have had more experience and chances are very likely that she had some "pull", but you can't make a sweeping generalisation that she wasn't the best candidate that was interviewed.

TheDriver

Unless someone appeals, then you will never know. Unfortunately this story isn't unheard of, especially in rural primary schools as you put it.

DoctorBoo

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

What's to say she isn't the best person for the job????
Lots of teachers got jobs straight out of college. It doesn't make them any less of a teacher.
Yes, it's a pity for those who may have had more experience and chances are very likely that she had some "pull", but you can't make a sweeping generalisation that she wasn't the best candidate that was interviewed.

I'm not saying she won't make a good teacher, but given her comparative inexperience, it would be hard to argue that she is the best person for the job. Surely having two or three more years teaching experience would make a person a better candidate?

TheDriver

Not always, experience might show they aren't good and the references support this view.

DoctorBoo

TheDriver wrote: »

Not always, experience might show they aren't good and the references support this view.

In that case, it would be unlikely that the candidate would be shortlisted and called for interview. Presumably the fact that you have been called for interview would indicate a level of confidence in your experience and ability.

I know these things are delicate in rural areas, however instead of cursing the dark.

Did you request feed back from the interview and see how you were scored.

Did you write to the board of management letting them know you were going to request feed back from the interview, you would not have to make a formal complaint they will be able to read between the lines and it might put the wind up them a bit if there was any favouritism gong on ( which there might not have been ).

Finley what sort of young inexperienced teachers wants to work with their mammy in a small rural school, where they would be watched like a hawk.

TheDriver

mariaalice wrote: »

I Finley what sort of young inexperienced teachers wants to work with their mammy in a small rural school, where they would be watched like a hawk.

the type of person who unfortunately has been advised by no one else and basically wants to be like their mammy.

I have heard plenty of stuff like that before "My Dad said I should ask for more hours" type of thing but Dad hasn't a clue of how the system works etc

DoctorBoo

mariaalice wrote: »

I know these things are delicate in rural areas, however instead of cursing the dark.

Did you request feed back from the interview and see how you were scored.

Did you write to the board of management letting them know you were going to request feed back from the interview, you would not have to make a formal complaint they will be able to read between the lines and it might put the wind up them a bit if there was any favouritism gong on ( which there might not have been ).

Finley what sort of young inexperienced teachers wants to work with their mammy in a small rural school, where they would be watched like a hawk.

I should say that I am not directly involved in this situation. It just seems like an unfair practice that will work out to the detriment of the school and the pupils.
Is there any scope for someone not involved in the process to complain, or does the responsibility lie with the disappointed candidates?

Moody_mona

Detriment of the pupils is a tad extreme. This person is qualified. As qualified as the other candidates.

DoctorBoo

Moody_mona wrote: »

Detriment of the pupils is a tad extreme. This person is qualified. As qualified as the other candidates.

They are not getting the best qualified person for the job. They are being taught that what counts is not what you know but rather who you know. This is a corrupt practice which creates a negative example and a negative culture within the school.

Moody_mona

How are the others more qualified? They are qualified teachers if they have an undergraduate and pgde or equivalent.

I got a job as a NQT, should I not have?

You have to start somewhere, you have to build experience. Not every school and board sees experience as a necessity.

DoctorBoo

Moody_mona wrote: »

How are the others more qualified? They are qualified teachers if they have an undergraduate and pgde or equivalent.

I got a job as a NQT, should I not have?

You have to start somewhere, you have to build experience. Not every school and board sees experience as a necessity.

I am not saying that NQTs should not get jobs - far from it. But, someone who has been working for two or three years has more experience to offer a school and a class.

Does experience not count in your book?

Moody_mona

Yes and no.

I did my teaching practice in a private school with little to no discipline problems. I got an excellent grade from it. I currently work in DEIS school. Had I 2 or 3 years experience from my TP school applying for my current job, I would have been no better than I was as a NQT because they're world's apart.

I'm all for giving NQT's a start, a chance to prove themselves and gain experience. They can have a lot going for them that more experienced teachers, and it boils down to a board's criteria and a school's need.

Without being on the interview panel, you don't know who is the best candidate, so although you feel this is corruption, I wouldn't recommend you to take it any further, especially since you're not actually involved in it.

TimeToShine

Nepotism being defended by Irish people!

Never thought I'd see the day.

FWIW OP, I know a graduate who just secured employment in the local primary school - ahead of 4 other candidates, 2 of whom had a few years experience under their belts (and one of them a male). His Father was the principal up until 2 years ago.

You'll have to take it on the chin and move on.

poolsandles

DoctorBoo wrote: »

I should say that I am not directly involved in this situation. It just seems like an unfair practice that will work out to the detriment of the school and the pupils.
Is there any scope for someone not involved in the process to complain, or does the responsibility lie with the disappointed candidates?

It is an unfair practice, but in my experience it is rife and widespread, not just in rural areas but nationwide.

There is no scope for you to complain unfortunately, that falls on the unsuccessful candidates who can write to the Board of Management if they wish but there isn't much point really.

I have been the unsuccessful candidate because of nepotism on more than one occasion. In my experience, there isn't a thing you can do about it. It happens and it will keep happening. If a school have someone if mind for a job, they will set the criteria so that person gets the job.

I have never complained. Ireland is a small country. Principals talk to each other and a teacher who is job hunting is in no position to complain really. I have known cases where unsuccessful candidates asked about getting their scores and were told "you don't want to make a bad name for yourself"

Having said all of that, it doesn't mean that the person related to somebody in the school isn't the best candidate. You don't know what the criteria was. They may very well have some special skill or talent, or done courses in a certain area that suit the needs of the school that the other candidates did not have. I have seen this happening too.

RealJohn

DoctorBoo wrote: »

Is there any scope for someone not involved in the process to complain, or does the responsibility lie with the disappointed candidates?

I would certainly hope not.

As you said, the teacher did their teaching practice in the school. Other candidates had also taught in the school. Isn't it possible that the school authorities had taken all of this into account and decided that the NQT was best suited to the school and the job? Your complaint seems to be based entirely on the fact that the teacher has a parent working in the school and is less experienced than some of the other applicants. Should NQTs be automatically excluded from any job in a school they're connected to? If so, how closely connected to they have to be before they're disqualified from applying?

I'm not saying that the person hired was the best person for the job. I don't know. Neither do you. You're not directly connected so I can only assume that either someone close to you is, in which case it's their business, not yours, or you have a kid/kids in the school in which case you should go to the school yourself and voice your concerns and see if they'll explain it. If you're just complaining because you don't like it, maybe you should ask yourself if that's your only motivation.

evolving_doors

DoctorBoo wrote: »

They are not getting the best qualified person for the job. They are being taught that what counts is not what you know but rather who you know. This is a corrupt practice which creates a negative example and a negative culture within the school.

I hear what your saying but you can;t categorically state that that was not the best person for the job unless you were on the interview panel yourself.

Oh yeah,, What kind of person wants to work with their Mammy?
Well if the person plays their cards right the 'family business' will be passed on.
I've seen it in quite a few professions, the path is laid out for their offspring.. 'Follow my lead son and keep yer mouth shut and all this will be yours someday'... In saying all that though, it does not necessarily make them a bad choice as they have access to advice from their mother or father at the drop of a hat and get introduced to all the right people (which they'll prbably know of already). Hence why politics is passed on from family to family, they have the machine behind them already up and running.

Symptoms of a small country, I think if it were in the UK the population is so wide that things are more likely to run on merit (compared to Ireland). If I were in the same shoes and my mam or dad was handing it on a plate I'd think twice about refusing. Doesn;t make it right though.

doc_17

Here's a hypothetical for you all.

A few years ago a young, talented GAA player from my rural club was just entering his final year of primary school teacher training. He received a phone call from a principal of a primary school in Dublin. This school is based in the parish of a large GAA club.

The principal asked him was he looking to return to his home county or washe looking to stay in Dublin. The young lad, on the county panel, said he hoped to stay in Dublin for a year. The principal, who is heavily involved in the local GAA club, told him not to try to seek employment elsewhere. He said he would sort him out for work.

The lad is working there now. He did not do his teaching practice there. I'd imagine there was an interview. But the others who turned up we're wasting their time. Also, is the department subsidising this Gaelic team? As he is now playing for them because he has a job there?

Wonder if that's ever happened!!

evolving_doors

TimeToShine wrote: »

Nepotism being defended by Irish people!

Never thought I'd see the day.

FWIW OP, I know a graduate who just secured employment in the local primary school - ahead of 4 other candidates, 2 of whom had a few years experience under their belts (and one of them a male). His Father was the principal up until 2 years ago.

You'll have to take it on the chin and move on.

I don;t think anyone is defending Nepotism, what is being argued though is the OP's assertion that the person who got the job is not the best person for the job. If that assertion holds true simply because the successful candidate was related then should related teachers be precluded from applying to certain schools (baring in mind half the country is related).

Also it is well known that schools do like taking on past pupils (related or not) as they would have a sense of what the school is about (discipline, routine,ethos etc..) and could have a connection with the students' families.
If you or the OP were sitting on an interview panel it would be ridiculous to discount it as PART of the interview adjudication.

What does being a male have to do with anything? That's a debate for another thread though.

First off asking for feed back is not going to black ball you that's in the realm of paranoia. Every one is entitled to apply for any job they are qualified for including where their parents work or else it a kind of reverse discrimination.

There is no point in getting annoyed on someone else's behalf if they are not prepared to do something about it, in facts it unhealthy and disempowering to them.

The issue of a young inexperienced teacher working in a small rural school with their mother should have raised some questions. Teaching in a rural primary school is a very public profession. What about their growth and development as a person.

rainbowtrout

doc_17 wrote: »

Here's a hypothetical for you all.

A few years ago a young, talented GAA player from my rural club was just entering his final year of primary school teacher training. He received a phone call from a principal of a primary school in Dublin. This school is based in the parish of a large GAA club.

The principal asked him was he looking to return to his home county or washe looking to stay in Dublin. The young lad, on the county panel, said he hoped to stay in Dublin for a year. The principal, who is heavily involved in the local GAA club, told him not to try to seek employment elsewhere. He said he would sort him out for work.

The lad is working there now. He did not do his teaching practice there. I'd imagine there was an interview. But the others who turned up we're wasting their time. Also, is the department subsidising this Gaelic team? As he is now playing for them because he has a job there?

Wonder if that's ever happened!!

This is just seriously, WTF??????

Are you seriously suggesting that the Dept of Education is financially subsiding a county GAA team, for which the teacher in question was already representing, and he's only on the county team because he as a primary school teacher???

rainbowtrout

DoctorBoo wrote: »

I am not saying that NQTs should not get jobs - far from it. But, someone who has been working for two or three years has more experience to offer a school and a class.

Does experience not count in your book?

Did you go for this job DoctorBoo????

Not denying that nepotism exists, I know it does, but how do you know the best person didn't get the job etc, if you didn't go for it?

TimeToShine

rainbowtrout wrote: »

This is just seriously, WTF??????

Are you seriously suggesting that the Dept of Education is financially subsiding a county GAA team, for which the teacher in question was already representing, and he's only on the county team because he as a primary school teacher???

No, what I took from it is that the principal saw the young lad as a valuable addition to the local GAA team so threw him a job to keep him around.

Doesn't surprise me in the least.

rainbowtrout

TimeToShine wrote: »

No, what I took from it is that the principal saw the young lad as a valuable addition to the local GAA team so threw him a job to keep him around.

Doesn't surprise me in the least.

My understanding of GAA is fairly rudimentary but my understanding is that transfers to different clubs are quite uncommon and I wouldsay even more so if you are a county player.

TimeToShine

rainbowtrout wrote: »

My understanding of GAA is fairly rudimentary but my understanding is that transfers to different clubs are quite uncommon and I wouldsay even more so if you are a county player.

You are allowed to transfer (and are encouraged to) if you move to a different county. Transfers are frowned upon within the county but if you have to move for work then it's fine.

rainbowtrout

TimeToShine wrote: »

You are allowed to transfer (and are encouraged to) if you move to a different county. Transfers are frowned upon within the county but if you have to move for work then it's fine.

I get all of that. What you still haven't said is if this county player moved from his local club to this new club in Dublin, and presumably the insinuation is that his getting the teaching job was largely based on him doing this?

TimeToShine

It's hard to know tbh. The most likely scenario in my mind is that he was playing with the college + playing county as well, now that college is over he has been offered the opportunity to work in Dublin, and quite conveniently the local parish is in need of a very good footballer. Depending how far away from home he is the county won't make him commute so they expect him to keep playing football/training to a reasonable standard.

rainbowtrout

TimeToShine wrote: »

It's hard to know tbh. The most likely scenario in my mind is that he was playing with the college + playing county as well, now that college is over he has been offered the opportunity to work in Dublin, and quite conveniently the local parish is in need of a very good footballer. Depending how far away from home he is the county won't make him commute so they expect him to keep playing football/training to a reasonable standard.

But has he actually transferred to this team? That's what you were implying, not the reasons why he might or might not transfer.

DoctorBoo

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Did you go for this job DoctorBoo????

Not denying that nepotism exists, I know it does, but how do you know the best person didn't get the job etc, if you didn't go for it?

No I didn't, I'm not a teacher. It's a small community and I know a number of people involved.
To be clear, I'm not saying that this is a clear-cut case of nepotism, as many people have pointed out, I was not part of the interview panel so I can't know. However, I feel there are a few valid questions to be asked about the situation. I'm looking for some transparency around the process.
I'm more than a little surprised by some of the views here that I should more or less mind my own business. This kind of thing shouldn't be happening in public bodies - it's not in society's interest.

DoctorBoo

DoctorBoo wrote: »

No I didn't, I'm not a teacher. It's a small community and I know a number of people involved.
To be clear, I'm not saying that this is a clear-cut case of nepotism, as many people have pointed out, I was not part of the interview panel so I can't know. However, I feel there are a few valid questions to be asked about the situation. I'm looking for some transparency around the process.
I'm more than a little surprised by some of the views here that I should more or less mind my own business. This kind of thing shouldn't be happening in public bodies - it's not in society's interest.

What exactly do you want though you are not being very clear, do you want the interview notes to be made public, do you want the board of management to publicly justify why they gave the job to that person. Do you want public proof that it was not nepotism.

Thinking about it, in todays climate the board of management, the person who got the job, the mother, the principle, all must be sure of there ground because they know the decision would cause gossip.

rainbowtrout

DoctorBoo wrote: »

No I didn't, I'm not a teacher. It's a small community and I know a number of people involved.
To be clear, I'm not saying that this is a clear-cut case of nepotism, as many people have pointed out, I was not part of the interview panel so I can't know. However, I feel there are a few valid questions to be asked about the situation. I'm looking for some transparency around the process.
I'm more than a little surprised by some of the views here that I should more or less mind my own business. This kind of thing shouldn't be happening in public bodies - it's not in society's interest.

Of course it's in society's interest that the best person gets the job etc, but surely the starting point of all this is the people that applied for the job. Did they feel hard done by, and if so, have they asked for their interview scores and feedback.

poolsandles

mariaalice wrote: »

First off asking for feed back is not going to black ball you that's in the realm of paranoia.

Not paranoia at all in my experience. Have it first hand from teachers who were advised not to request their scores.

poolsandles

poolsandles wrote: »

Not paranoia at all in my experience. Have it first hand from teachers who were advised not to request their scores.

Advised by who though.

I have my sister and a friend of here's coming for a visit tonight anyway she drives me mad with this sort of stuff gossip about who is related to who and thast why they got the job, and funny enough it happened to her it turned out she was the third cousin of someone she was working with and the gossip was that's why she got the job ( she had not even realised she was related to them )

I am not saying nepotism does not exists, but sometime people need to take off the tinfoil lined hat.

doc_17

rainbowtrout wrote: »

This is just seriously, WTF??????

Are you seriously suggesting that the Dept of Education is financially subsiding a county GAA team, for which the teacher in question was already representing, and he's only on the county team because he as a primary school teacher???

No I'm not saying the dept are deliberately doing it. They know nothing about it. But his salary is paid by the dept. He transferred clubs when he was awarded the job, or shortly after it. He was told by the principal of the school that he didn't need to look for another job because he "would sort him out". So that principal would be using taxpayers money to give someone a job so that that person could improve the principal's GAA club.

And I said nothing about him being on the county team just because he is a primary school teacher.

Again, this is all just a hypothetical.

rainbowtrout

doc_17 wrote: »

No I'm not saying the dept are deliberately doing it. They know nothing about it. But his salary is paid by the dept. He transferred clubs when he was awarded the job, or shortly after it. He was told by the principal of the school that he didn't need to look for another job because he "would sort him out". So that principal would be using taxpayers money to give someone a job so that that person could improve the principal's GAA club.

And I said nothing about him being on the county team just because he is a primary school teacher.

Again, this is all just a hypothetical.

Yes it is all just hypothetical. Are you going around back home saying it though and contributing to gossip. In one of your earlier posts you said yourself player's are encouraged to move clubs if they have moved away for work, so maybe if he got the job he would have moved clubs anyway?

You've got bits of the story, and have made a whole story out of it.

Also this is what you wrote:

Also, is the department subsidising this Gaelic team? As he is now playing for them because he has a job there?

If there is a position in the school, the department are paying the wages of that teacher - they are not subsidising a GAA team. Principals can't just give out jobs for the craic. There has to be a position available. Maybe this guy was encouraged afterwards to play for a particular GAA club, maybe he chose to do so out of convenience.


The only thing I would have a problem with is a principal giving a job away before it was advertised.

byhookorbycrook

Many principals prefer an NQT to have new ideas and also to guide them into how the school works. Sometimes a more experienced teacher can be quite set in their ways. Giving an NQT a job, if they are the best person for the job in not nepotism .

DoctorBoo

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Of course it's in society's interest that the best person gets the job etc, but surely the starting point of all this is the people that applied for the job. Did they feel hard done by, and if so, have they asked for their interview scores and feedback.

The unsuccessful candidates I know are unhappy but afraid to complain. Work is scarce and we all know what happens to whistleblowers or anyone who dares to put their head above the parapet in this country.

poolsandles

mariaalice wrote: »

Advised by who though.

In one case by other teachers, in the second case by the Principal of the school.

I should add they were advised not to ask for their scores but there was no problem asking for feedback on performance at interview.

poolsandles

DoctorBoo wrote: »

The unsuccessful candidates I know are unhappy but afraid to complain. Work is scarce and we all know what happens to whistleblowers or anyone who dares to put there head above the parapet in this country.

If the unsuccessful candidates are unhappy and feel they were they best candidate, by all means they should write to the Chairperson for feedback. That isn't complaining, it is just asking where they went wrong and how they can do better next time. As others have said, you don't know what the criteria was. The successful candidate could have been chosen for any number of reasons.

doc_17

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yes it is all just hypothetical. Are you going around back home saying it though and contributing to gossip. In one of your earlier posts you said yourself player's are encouraged to move clubs if they have moved away for work, so maybe if he got the job he would have moved clubs anyway?

You've got bits of the story, and have made a whole story out of it.

Also this is what you wrote:



If there is a position in the school, the department are paying the wages of that teacher - they are not subsidising a GAA team. Principals can't just give out jobs for the craic. There has to be a position available. Maybe this guy was encouraged afterwards to play for a particular GAA club, maybe he chose to do so out of convenience.


The only thing I would have a problem with is a principal giving a job away before it was advertised.

I don't think I said people are encouraged to move club after they moved to an area for work, nor am I contributing to gossip thanks very much. Did you accuse anyone else of contributing to gossip when contributed with their experiences?

I think people know why I added the hypothetical part. Hopefully most of you can read between the lines on this.

Anyway, I'm done. As I shouldn't really say anymore. The thread is related to nepotism and what I'm describing isn't really that.

evolving_doors

doc_17 wrote: »

I don't think I said people are encouraged to move club after they moved to an area for work, nor am I contributing to gossip thanks very much. Did you accuse anyone else of contributing to gossip when contributed with their experiences?

I think people know why I added the hypothetical part. Hopefully most of you can read between the lines on this.

Anyway, I'm done. As I shouldn't really say anymore. The thread is related to nepotism and what I'm describing isn't really that.

Well it could be classed as nepotism by proxy! The GAA is a big family network too.
I know rainbowtrout is a bit taken aback by someone being hired mainly for sport reasons..however ..
I happened to be listening to some sports show on the wireless yesterday , it was about the whole dublin/resources vs rural/emigration/poverty issue and how it was affecting the rural clubs and lack of mentoring for younger players... (in spite of my gibe about gender not mattering earlier)..the guy pointed to the feminisation of the primary teaching profession and that there wouldnt be the male teachers to train the boys at school (his words not mine btw).
He could have been talking sh##e but if that is the sentiment amongst many GAA 'movers and shakers' then you can well understand the previous poster's 'hypothetical scenario' and the way it would play out in job applications.

Leaving aside that women might be involved in GAA too and that girls attend primary school too!

rainbowtrout

Armelodie wrote: »

Well it could be classed as nepotism by proxy! The GAA is a big family network too.
I know rainbowtrout is a bit taken aback by someone being hired mainly for sport reasons..however ..
I happened to be listening to some sports show on the wireless yesterday , it was about the whole dublin/resources vs rural/emigration/poverty issue and how it was affecting the rural clubs and lack of mentoring for younger players... (in spite of my gibe about gender not mattering earlier)..the guy pointed to the feminisation of the primary teaching profession and that there wouldnt be the male teachers to train the boys at school (his words not mine btw).
He could have been talking sh##e but if that is the sentiment amongst many GAA 'movers and shakers' then you can well understand the previous poster's 'hypothetical scenario' and the way it would play out in job applications.

Leaving aside that women might be involved in GAA too and that girls attend primary school too!

No, not taken aback by that at all. Am more than aware that it happens.

The initial post about this particular position was that a lad in college gets a call and is basically offered a job in a primary school and he happens to be on the county panel and it was implied that he would move to the principal's local club as part of the job, in a "I'll give you a job, if you play for my GAA club" rather than 'i'll give you a teaching job if you coach in the school', which would be a far more likely scenario.

I was looking for confirmation that this was the case as there was no evidence provided.