Dublin Niche Licence announcement imminent

Radioman44

With Highland keeping its Radio Licence for another 10years and the remaining two licences for a Niche Service in Dublin and Local Radio for the North West, any viewpoints on whether Sunshine and Ocean will hold theirs.

L1011

Ocean hold. Sunshine had the weaker paper application but the stronger oral I think so I won't call it.

If Sunshine go, I'd be worried for the safety of the associated stations due to the amount of debts to common owners/investors that can't be repaid - the BAI may have taken that in to account.

Radioman44

Interesting comments made and I would agree that Ocean look best to hold on to their licence. However if Sunshine Hold on to their licence, question's will be asked as to how they would be awarded the licence for a "Niche" music station as they are clearly not suggesting this in their application. Country Fm look the better option all round, but does the bai have the courage to take a licence back and give it to the challenger?

L1011

Radioman44 wrote: »

but does the bai have the courage to take a licence back and give it to the challenger?

The BCI, pre-reforming, did it in 2004 to three licences (albeit two were for altered franchise areas). I doubt they've lost the will to do it if they feel its correct.

Losty Dublin

I found it interesting that the incumbent want to play easy listening/soul and referred to a survey saying nobody listens to country music at all. Meanwhile, the challenger, who have experience in the C+I music business, said that €36,000 a week is spent on advertisments for country music concerts in the Sunday World. They can't both be wrong yet can they they both be right?

Something that concerns me with Sunshine is how they propose another shift to the mid market in their already vanilla musical output; it's a new station application within the old application yet they admit within the application that they fouled up in the first place though their books are fairly okay in recent years. Country appear to be understaffed but the model of smaller stations running on skeletal staff numbers is something that Ireland may hve to embrace in the long run as music playback habits change. That said, my birdy tells me there have been a lot of hard questions going between the BAI and the applicants so it's something that's worrying everybody as well.

It will boil down to if the BAI want to go safe with a track record and consistency or go brave and for vibrancy and diversity. If the former then Sunshine are safe; the latter and Shanley wins out.

As impressive as Mid West's performance has been for it's 25 years on air, it hasn't moved on as much as it should have and it's had it's scrapes over the years. I can't see it getting NWR FM back so it won't get it's anniversary gift; Ocean will retain again.

radioland

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I found it interesting that the incumbent want to play easy listening/soul and referred to a survey saying nobody listens to country music at all. Meanwhile, the challenger, who have experience in the C+I music business, said that €36,000 a week is spent on advertisments for country music concerts in the Sunday World. They can't both be wrong yet can they they both be right?

Something that concerns me with Sunshine is how they propose another shift to the mid market in their already vanilla musical output; it's a new station application within the old application yet they admit within the application that they fouled up in the first place though their books are fairly okay in recent years. Country appear to be understaffed but the model of smaller stations running on skeletal staff numbers is something that Ireland may hve to embrace in the long run as music playback habits change. That said, my birdy tells me there have been a lot of hard questions going between the BAI and the applicants so it's something that's worrying everybody as well.

It will boil down to if the BAI want to go safe with a track record and consistency or go brave and for vibrancy and diversity. If the former then Sunshine are safe; the latter and Shanley wins out.

As impressive as Mid West's performance has been for it's 25 years on air, it hasn't moved on as much as it should have and it's had it's scrapes over the years. I can't see it getting NWR FM back so it won't get it's anniversary gift; Ocean will retain again.

They've confirmed on Facebook that they've retained licence

L1011

Awarded "in principle" to Sunshine; would suggest this all but guarantees Ocean have it.

Losty Dublin

radioland wrote: »

They've confirmed on Facebook that they've retained licence

And Keith Shanley has confirmed on Facebook that he isn't happy with the decision

Trick of the Tail

Two astonishing decisions by the BAI of recent.

DLFM's application was clearly superior to Highland's, and with the Sunshine licence the BAI have demonstrated that they don't really want a niche music licence, even though that's supposed to be what it is.

Despite the BAI being legally obliged to foster diversity, once again they have not taken the opportunity to do so.

Infoanon

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

Two astonishing decisions by the BAI of recent.

DLFM's application was clearly superior to Highland's, and with the Sunshine licence the BAI have demonstrated that they don't really want a niche music licence, even though that's supposed to be what it is.

Despite the BAI being legally obliged to foster diversity, once again they have not taken the opportunity to do so.

Not really astonishing, Sunshine had shown that Country music was not viable and thus the BAI would not take the risk of a new entrant failing.
Problems with Phantom and 4FM possibly influenced the outcome as well.
Highland are untouchables.

PacMan

Infoanon wrote: »

Highland are untouchables.

Why ?
Is it because of their very high market share, being Number 1 of all locals in the JNLR's ?
If this is the case, then why was Tipp Mid west licence taken in 2003, or I am sure others aswell ?

Trick of the Tail

Sunshine never wanted to be a country station and never were a real one, so their assertion that its unviable was invalid.

Country FM however had a very viable business plan which showed that it was viable, read it if you wish, their way of doing things would have been a model for niche radio in this country.

Sadly the BAI are too protectionist to allow that to happen, even though they're legally obliged to. Instead they've licenced another Q102/4FM clone.

No diversity or listener choice there.

Infoanon

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

Sunshine never wanted to be a country station and never were a real one, so their assertion that its unviable was invalid.

Country FM however had a very viable business plan which showed that it was viable, read it if you wish, their way of doing things would have been a model for niche radio in this country.

Sadly the BAI are too protectionist to allow that to happen, even though they're legally obliged to. Instead they've licenced another Q102/4FM clone.

No diversity or listener choice there.

is there any commercial station on air that has stuck to its promises in its application ?

On paper every licence application has a viable business plan, Sunshine - Country FM at the start - flopped with a country format and nearly went out of business.
Sunshine did not hand back the licence and varied the output which ultimately would go down well with the BAI as today has proved.

With the capital investment required It was unlikely that BAI would risk a new entrant trying the same format.


As an aside imo its the BAI who need to alter their requirements before a niche country music station could be viable.

Infoanon

PacMan wrote: »

Why ?
Is it because of their very high market share, being Number 1 of all locals in the JNLR's ?
If this is the case, then why was Tipp Mid west licence taken in 2003, or I am sure others aswell ?

I assume you mean North West Radio - Tipp Mid West is still on air

Losty Dublin

Infoanon wrote: »

On paper every licence application has a viable business plan, Sunshine - Country FM at the start - flopped with a country format and nearly went out of business.
Sunshine did not hand back the licence and varied the output which ultimately would go down well with the BAI as today has proved.

As an aside imo its the BAI who need to alter their requirements before a niche country music station could be viable.

They tried to go sexy and it failed miserably. The hired big radio names and American styled Nu-country was what cost them and let them down instead of going with tried and trusted country presenters and play listing. Once it failed the first time it became country and they tried everything to squirm out of things. To be fair to them, they have made gains slowly but surely over the last few years and it can't be ignored that the station is doing far better today than it did when it first hit the airwaves.

I agree with your last point; the BAI needs to look at what they want stations to be aiming for as a whole.

PacMan

Infoanon wrote: »

I assume you mean North West Radio - Tipp Mid West is still on air

Yes, its correct that Tipp Mid west is still on air.
They are now broadcasting with a community licence.

Mediajunkie

It was clear that country fm wasn't going to win - did you watch their presentation. Keith Shanley couldn't even speak and explain himself. It was completely left to Martin block who hasn't lasted in any of the stations he was involved with.

Sunshine have clearly shown that country format is not viable and wouldn't provide enough listeners to sustain any sort of profits in the long run.

marno21

PacMan wrote: »

Yes, its correct that Tipp Mid west is still on air.
They are now broadcasting with a community licence.

Community station they maybe but I'd doubt they're having trouble reaching their old listeners

I can get it perfectly on my phone here approx 80km from their TX site while I can't get Spin Southwest from the TX 40km away (different terrain I know but surely Tipp MWR can't be that much affected)

Anyway, back to the topic at hand

Declan A Walsh

Infoanon wrote: »

is there any commercial station on air that has stuck to its promises in its application ?

On paper every licence application has a viable business plan, Sunshine - Country FM at the start - flopped with a country format and nearly went out of business.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

They tried to go sexy and it failed miserably. The hired big radio names and American styled Nu-country was what cost them and let them down instead of going with tried and trusted country presenters and play listing. Once it failed the first time it became country and they tried everything to squirm out of things. To be fair to them, they have made gains slowly but surely over the last few years and it can't be ignored that the station is doing far better today than it did when it first hit the airwaves.

I agree with your last point; the BAI needs to look at what they want stations to be aiming for as a whole.

In relation to Infoaman's post: Strictly speaking, Sunshine never called itself Country FM. It was initially called Dublin's Country 106.8. Then, a bit of nuance was inserted in the name as it became Dublin's Country Mix 106.8. This was after the management tried and failed to get permission to drop "Country" from the station name. Eventually, it did manage to do that with Sunshine. What changed the B.A.I.'s attitude on that point?

Re Losty Dublin's post: You are so right about their initial lineup. I remember then Chairman David Harvey being interviewed around the time of its launch and he referred to "hot country jocks". Yeah right! Most of the initial lineup, certainly the daily presenters, were not well-known on the country circuit - but they were well-known! I'm thinking of the likes of Mike Maloney, Bob Conway, Hugh O'Brien and Gerry Wilson. The first breakfast presenter was Stephen Keogh, previously with Today FM. There have been exceptions over the years of course, such as Paschal Mooney, Mike Ryan, Alan Corcoran and Bill McLoughlin. At least four of the presenters over the years went on to Radio Nova: Ernie Gallagher, Greg Gaughren, Mike Maloney and Hugh O'Brien! Carol Dooley went in the opposite direction!

And yes, it was evident where they intended to go music-wise from the start. The country music that it was enthusiastic about was of the crossover variety. If anything, it became more of an easy-listening station than the official license-holder Lite FM (rebranded Q102)!

Incidentally, Keith Shanley from the other applicant (Country FM) used to be a presenter on Sunshine. Between him and Martin Block - ex-Capital Radio (FM104), ex-Lite FM (Q102) and ex-4FM - don't think (if they got the license) that they would not have tweaked their music mix too if they felt it was required!

Radio Freak

Its a complete joke. LiteFM now Q102 was originally licenced as a easy-listening station for Dublin. Suddenly the BAI allowed that station to change the rules and opt for a more uptempo format. The same thing happened with 4fm where they started off playing easy-listening music for the multi- city licence. Now it's like your listening to a different station today. How can the BAI be taken seriously? Newstalk seems to be the few stations that has not deviated from their remit.

Losty Dublin

Radio Freak wrote: »

Newstalk seems to be the few stations that has not deviated from their remit.

Apart from being granted permission to broadcast to most of Ireland as well as Dublin, that is.

Radio Freak

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Apart from being granted permission to broadcast to most of Ireland as well as Dublin, that is.

The basic content of their pr

Radio Freak

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Apart from being granted permission to broadcast to most of Ireland as well as Dublin, that is.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Apart from being granted permission to broadcast to most of Ireland as well as Dublin, that is.

That is true, however, Newstalk's basic content of their programming was not changed unlike Q102 or 4fm music content. That is the fundamental difference. In my opinion, Newstalk's quasi National licence was for the betterment of the radio landscape at the time. Their was no national commercial independent talk station in Ireland at that time to seve the rest of Ireland. Newstalk had already brought their talk station to Dublin and had gotten a favourable response from audiences and they continue to grow a steady listenership to this day.

Declan A Walsh

4FM won the competition for a multi-city license. It was believed to be for a mainly middle-aged audience. It was never specifically an easy-listening license so there was not really an issue there. It has more flexibility than say the holder of the easy-listening license. which was Lite FM.. ah, wait a minute, never mind!

A couple of years ago, I discovered that 106.8 had a more complex license than I thought. The license it received was not for a pure country station but a split of different proportions between country, easy-listening and Irish music. It might have done better if it was pure country as it would have had a more clearly defined identity to reach a potential audience, not to mention that it would have been unique in its music selection. Personally, if we had a licensed station that played country-and-western music for example, I for one would not be listening to it but that is not important! There are plenty fans in Ireland of that genre.

It's a strange situation that when you hear an Eagles song overnight you could be listening to the quasi-country station Sunshine 106.8, or rock station Radio Nova, or multi-city station 4FM or a late might music show on RTE Radio One!

Radioman44

Declan A Walsh wrote: »

In relation to Infoaman's post: Strictly speaking, Sunshine never called itself Country FM. It was initially called Dublin's Country 106.8. Then, a bit of nuance was inserted in the name as it became Dublin's Country Mix 106.8. This was after the management tried and failed to get permission to drop "Country" from the station name. Eventually, it did manage to do that with Sunshine. What changed the B.A.I.'s attitude on that point?

Re Losty Dublin's post: You are so right about their initial lineup. I remember then Chairman David Harvey being interviewed around the time of its launch and he referred to "hot country jocks". Yeah right! Most of the initial lineup, certainly the daily presenters, were not well-known on the country circuit - but they were well-known! I'm thinking of the likes of Mike Maloney, Bob Conway, Hugh O'Brien and Gerry Wilson. The first breakfast presenter was Stephen Keogh, previously with Today FM. There have been exceptions over the years of course, such as Paschal Mooney, Mike Ryan, Alan Corcoran and Bill McLoughlin. At least four of the presenters over the years went on to Radio Nova: Ernie Gallagher, Greg Gaughren, Mike Maloney and Hugh O'Brien! Carol Dooley went in the opposite direction!

And yes, it was evident where they intended to go music-wise from the start. The country music that it was enthusiastic about was of the crossover variety. If anything, it became more of an easy-listening station than the official license-holder Lite FM (rebranded Q102)!

Incidentally, Keith Shanley from the other applicant (Country FM) used to be a presenter on Sunshine. Between him and Martin Block - ex-Capital Radio (FM104), ex-Lite FM (Q102) and ex-4FM - don't think (if they got the license) that they would not have tweaked their music mix too if they felt it was required!

I have from a reliable source who worked in Dublins Country that Keith Shanley as PD made significant changes bringing the music back to a more Country Format and when he left the stations figures were better then they had been in years.

Radioman44

It seems several Radio Stations can do as they please by playing the "If we don't change what we've been given a licence to do, we won't survive" card and the BAI are allowing the changes clearing from what they proposed to do in the first place. The BAI don't want a Radio Station going to the wall on their watch. I think the BAI have missed a golden oppertunity with regard to the Dublin Niche Licence to say "enough is enough". If you don't do what you were given a licence to do, we'll take it back and give someone else a chance.

Onthe3rdDay

Century Radio really scarred the BAI (or the IRTC as it was) If it were a person it would need counseling. Once a station has a licence it seems it can get away with almost anything. Obviously the press releases say it's with the agreement of the BAI but the BAI will never disagree when there's a threat of closure hanging over their head.

L1011

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

Century Radio really scarred the BAI (or the IRTC as it was) If it were a person it would need counseling. Once a station has a licence it seems it can get away with almost anything. Obviously the press releases say it's with the agreement of the BAI but the BAI will never disagree when there's a threat of closure hanging over their head.

RLO lost their licence after the Century debacle - probably the one warning shot fired, but it didn't happen.

Losty Dublin

MYOB wrote: »

RLO lost their licence after the Century debacle - probably the one warning shot fired, but it didn't happen.

If you knew exactly what RLO had done to warrant their licence being revoked, you'd actually be shocked that they were let on air for as long as they were!

Cork_chick_94

Losty Dublin wrote: »

If you knew exactly what RLO had done to warrant their licence being revoked, you'd actually be shocked that they were let on air for as long as they were!

What did they do ?

Losty Dublin

Cork_chick_94 wrote: »

What did they do ?

It would be easier to list off what they did do as per their contract A friend of mine was working for them at the time and mentioned that there were over 40 alleged contract breaches at the time! The main ones related to ad breaks that ran over the allowed times, failure to provide programme loggers, alleged editing of programme loggers, failures to adhere to agreed programme schedules and failure to answer routine IRTC communications on even mundane matters.

There were also book keeping discrepancies, using unapproved broadcast equipment, issues in relation to deflector relays it's satellite radio service and a TV channel and other minor issues, all of which went against the station.

In 1997 the IRTC removed the stations FM licence; undeterred the station carried on with high powered relay of it's satellite broadcast as the legitimate operator 95FM took over the county's licence. In 1999 OFCOM removed it's satellite licence over its inability to allay it's concerns over links to the relay transmitters; it remained on air via internet streaming. It was raided Black Tuesday in 2002 but it was not until 2006 when it was finally raided one last time and RLO was finally put to bed.

Radio is for life

Radio Freak wrote: »

Its a complete joke. LiteFM now Q102 was originally licenced as a easy-listening station for Dublin. Suddenly the BAI allowed that station to change the rules and opt for a more uptempo format. The same thing happened with 4fm where they started off playing easy-listening music for the multi- city licence. Now it's like your listening to a different station today. How can the BAI be taken seriously? Newstalk seems to be the few stations that has not deviated from their remit.

"Newstalk seems to be the few stations that has not deviated from their remit" Did you really make that statement. All stations change with changing attitudes and times. How cana talk station not change. as there is clearly different stories every day and different agendas. They Talk!!! It can only come out of their mouths unless they start talking thorugh their a*rse like some on here. A talk station cant change unless it plays music! Whats a ridiculous comment.

As for the Sunshine Vs Country debate. The best application won the prize. It cant be any easier to understand. I too watched the oral hearings and Ashmore and the guys were polished and on the ball. Shanley fell apart at the scenes and the presentation was amateur to say the least. They all need o grow up and take the decision for what it was.

Radioman44

Radio is for life wrote: »

"Newstalk seems to be the few stations that has not deviated from their remit" Did you really make that statement. All stations change with changing attitudes and times. How cana talk station not change. as there is clearly different stories every day and different agendas. They Talk!!! It can only come out of their mouths unless they start talking thorugh their a*rse like some on here. A talk station cant change unless it plays music! Whats a ridiculous comment.

As for the Sunshine Vs Country debate. The best application won the prize. It cant be any easier to understand. I too watched the oral hearings and Ashmore and the guys were polished and on the ball. Shanley fell apart at the scenes and the presentation was amateur to say the least. They all need o grow up and take the decision for what it was.

I would agree with you regarding the Oral Hearing. Sunshine did come over Polished and rehearsed, while the Country Fm consortium came of passionate and knowledgeable. It has been said and proven here in many comments, that Sunshine did not win the argument on "niche", which this licence was. As for Shanley falling apart, I agree he did not come over very well but the Oral Hearing I believe is only one third of the application. Many of us have been have been caught in the Rabbits highlights and fold under pressure at the wrong time. Like you said Ashmore is polished and used to these hearings and Country Fm simply are not. Surely that's not reason enough not to award a licence to a challenger OR maybe it is?

end of the road

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It would be easier to list off what they did do as per their contract A friend of mine was working for them at the time and mentioned that there were over 40 alleged contract breaches at the time! The main ones related to ad breaks that ran over the allowed times, failure to provide programme loggers, alleged editing of programme loggers, failures to adhere to agreed programme schedules and failure to answer routine IRTC communications on even mundane matters.

There were also book keeping discrepancies, using unapproved broadcast equipment, issues in relation to deflector relays it's satellite radio service and a TV channel and other minor issues, all of which went against the station.

In 1997 the IRTC removed the stations FM licence; undeterred the station carried on with high powered relay of it's satellite broadcast as the legitimate operator 95FM took over the county's licence. In 1999 OFCOM removed it's satellite licence over its inability to allay it's concerns over links to the relay transmitters; it remained on air via internet streaming. It was raided Black Tuesday in 2002 but it was not until 2006 when it was finally raided one last time and RLO was finally put to bed.

i'd say they would have shut anyway around 2006/7 but the raid brought the end on quicker

Trick of the Tail

It seems the mistake Country FM made was assuming that when the BAI advertise a niche service, they want a niche service.

Which they clearly do not, as the Sunshine application isn't one.

I also find it strange that an application which bases a large part of its viability on sharing resources with other stations is successful, when those other stations' licences run out before the new one.

If the stations upon which Sunshine will rely don't get their licences renewed, then surely their business plan falls apart?


Country FM's application was for a standalone station, and their business model looked good, if unconventional. It would also serve as a model for future niche stations, which the BAI obviously don't want either.

Radioman44

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

It seems the mistake Country FM made was assuming that when the BAI advertise a niche service, they want a niche service.

Which they clearly do not, as the Sunshine application isn't one.

I also find it strange that an application which bases a large part of its viability on sharing resources with other stations is successful, when those other stations' licences run out before the new one.

If the stations upon which Sunshine will rely don't get their licences renewed, then surely their business plan falls apart?


Sunshines application was for a standalone station, and their business model looked good, if unconventional. It would also serve as a model for future niche stations, which the BAI obviously don't want either.

Don't you mean Country Fm's application was for a standalone station? I agree and have said before on this post, I believe the BAI have lost a golden oppertunity by awarding a Niche licence to a non niche station.

Trick of the Tail

Radioman44 wrote: »

Don't you mean Country Fm's application was for a standalone station? I agree and have said before on this post, I believe the BAI have lost a golden oppertunity by awarding a Niche licence to a non niche station.

I did and have corrected! Sorry bout that!