Marriage equality referendum

Annasopra

So it will happen early next year.

RANT ALERT

I find it deeply worrying that there is a complacency this will pass.

Its going to be a battle but a battle that needs all of us and our friends and families to fight it.

If we all just sit back and assume it will pass, If we all just sit back and dont do something to make it pass then I'm afraid it will fail.

Muise...

Hello Joey and forum!

I started a thread on this in AH, really trying to gauge which way the wind is blowing as I'm worried about complacency too. Didn't want to start a row over it, and I'm relieved there have only been a few flare-ups over two - TWO - naysayers.

Anyhoo - if there's anything us straights can do to get people out the door doing the right thing on polling day, just let us know.

Canard

I probably won't be here for it. I know my one vote wouldn't be the deciding one by any means, but still... it's something I really care about. I'll have to make up for it by making absolutely sure that everyone I know votes rather than assuming it'll pass!

J_E

I will be voting and I think it's something to take seriously. Intellectual arguments about heteronormativity and the like aside, this is the chance to give people an equal standing, and I don't think anyone who claims to care can turn their nose at such a thing. There are no downsides to it passing. It just bridges empathy and understanding between people.

ixoy

Completely agree about the complacency - I know a lot of people who are for it in principle but, as one openly admitted to me, "I'm not sure if I'd vote". That's what we need to address. Make them understand that, for the cost of maybe an hour or two of their time spent getting to the poll booth, they could help bring a lot of happiness to many thousands of people.

DazMarz

It is complacency that will kill it. Simple. Nothing else will. Despite all the huff and puff from the Iona-mob, they won't kill it. The killer will be people assuming it will pass, or simply just not giving enough of a shít.

However... the mere fact that ALL the political parties are unified about it (barring the right-wing whack job-parties, who are thankfully few in number) is huge. This should kill any "protest" vote who would vote against it because the "gubbermint" said to vote for it. Fine Gael, Labour, Fianna Fáil, The Green Party, etc. all support it.

But the best, absolute best, support for this referendum is from Sinn Féin. Had they been against it, it would have been sunk, thanks to the protest vote. But, thankfully, they've long supported LGBT rights. I might not like Sinn Féin, but their support for this referendum is crucial. They might just swing a few crucial votes to the "YES" side.

But if social media is used, effective campaigning and a "rise above it" attitude to negative campaigning (which the "No" side will undoubtedly use), this could be scraped. I will be ashamed of this country if it doesn't pass. Utterly ashamed.

This is a defining moment of a generation. Let's make sure that it is not fúcked up. Because, believe it or believe it not, the eyes of the world will be upon us. And we had better not fúck it up.

Amirani

DazMarz wrote:

This is a defining moment of a generation.

I very much agree with this. I'm quite politically active when it comes to elections and referenda, I'm always well informed and make sure I head along to vote. This is on a whole other level though. Owing to my relative youth, this will be the first time I'll have voted in a referendum that will have a clear and meaningful effect on me and many people I know. I won't just be making sure that I'm well informed and heading along to vote, I'll be making sure that I encourage and actively pressure everyone I know to do so also. It will undoubtedly be a tough campaign, but endurance here is necessary for victory.

Marriage equality is coming way too late, but when it does come (hopefully next year), I will be proud to be a citizen of a country that actively enshrines within its constitution the equal rights of people of all sexual orientations.

J_E

Always like the chance to give this video a spin;

LegacyUser

Canard wrote: »

I probably won't be here for it. I know my one vote wouldn't be the deciding one by any means, but still... it's something I really care about. I'll have to make up for it by making absolutely sure that everyone I know votes rather than assuming it'll pass!

Same here where are you heading on Erasmus then?

On-topic, I also unfortunately won't be in Ireland to vote so I'll just have to make sure everyone I know does!

DazMarz

I was wondering for a long time (well, one minute thirty seconds, approximately), "what the f--- is going on here?!".

Then...

That's deadly!

Daith

Going to be a long couple of months folks.

Be nice if we could get a number of Boardies at the March for Marriage event at the end of August.

ongarboy

Maybe this is an opportunity to utilise "the power of one". In the couple of weeks coming up to the referendum, subtle support can come in the way of liking the Yes vote on Facebook or posting a Vote Yes on your timeline so all your FB friends (and acquaintances) get exposure. People who may have been indifferent or even against it may think twice when someone they know is affected by the ramifications of a No vote. It doesn't have to be all out revolutionary. We can all do our little bit to help.

eviltwin

Very happy to see a firm commitment to this referendum, I was wondering if it would ever happen. As Daith says its going to be a long road and a difficult one, there is going to be comments of epic proportions from the anti marriage brigade. I seriously fear for the mental health of young LGBT people and those not so young if the impact of the Protection of Life debate on post abortive women was anything to go by its going to get personal and be really nasty.

The yays and nays will already have made their minds up so its the people on the fence who need to be targeted and rather than make it a gay issue which can be alien to a lot of people maybe the focus needs to be more on the fact its about helping two people in love make the ultimate commitment. Love is a universal thing we can all understand after all.

Annasopra

ongarboy wrote: »

Maybe this is an opportunity to utilise "the power of one". In the couple of weeks coming up to the referendum, subtle support can come in the way of liking the Yes vote on Facebook or posting a Vote Yes on your timeline so all your FB friends (and acquaintances) get exposure. People who may have been indifferent or even against it may think twice when someone they know is affected by the ramifications of a No vote. It doesn't have to be all out revolutionary. We can all do our little bit to help.

To be honest I think it may need a little more than that. I think putting up stuff on facebook is a bit too passive but if you actively ask all of your friends on a one to one basis I think that would have much much more of an affect.

You could also potentially volunteer with any yes campaigns.

Ambersky

I too am nervous about complacency and over confidence, Referendum Campaigns have a habit of narrowing the differences between their percentage points as voting gets closer. In analysing trends people speak about the soft Yes vote and they are the people who have said they would vote for a change but when the question is worded differently they say No. These people can be scared into changing their Yes by arguments that don’t have to hold water, they just have to play into people’s fears.
If you think that people couldn’t reasonably be against gay marriage just think back and remember you could just as well have thought who could reasonably be against people having the right to divorce, who would want to make people stay together for life in misery, or who could be against an Amendment to protect children rights.
On 04/12/2006. Sixty-eight per cent of respondents to The Irish Times/TNS mrbi poll said they would support the proposed changes to protect childrens rights with just 16% opposing the move.
But by 11 November 2012 the children's rights referendum had been passed by a narrow margin, with final results from all count centres across the country showing a result of 58pc in favour versus 42pc against.
A lot of that loss of support happened because of fear campaign was launched against it concentrating on the terrible things that could happen if the act was passed and ignoring once again the terrible things the act was designed and intended to prevent.

I know a lot of people have changed their attitudes to LGBT people I just don’t want to underestimate the opposition. If you think of it in sporting terms look at what can happen to the team that is over confident when faced with an underdog that really wants to win. I imagine the Catholic church will rally against us and may join with other churches and religions to do so, conservative Ireland will be out in force with leaflets at church doors, parish halls, hospitals, old folks homes, shopping centers and door to door. Just because this is not the kind of community you may belong to a lot of Ireland does relate that way and I would urge people not to underestimate all of that when it comes to a National Vote.
Also remember Irelands broadcasting watchdog the BAI has directed that when it comes to a Referendum ”The allocation of airtime must be equitable and fair to all interests and undertaken in a transparent manner. It won’t be our choice who we argue with and it won’t matter if the anti gay marriage groups are in the minority, they will be presented with equal air time to present their arguments against gay marriage. Mostly I think they will be spreading fear and mostly we will be clarifying misconceptions and allaying fears presenting a reasonable need that also speaks to peoples empathy and emotional understanding.

Going door to door or campaigning anywhere or just having conversations people will need to be prepared to answer what you may consider others unreasonable arguments in a respectful and conclusive way.Get familiar with those unreasonable arguments and get to understand them in order to be able to address them. One example is peoples misconception that we are trying to force churches to marry us against their stated principles, a lot of people think we have Civil Partnership and now we are trying to force people into allowing Church Weddings. We need to get the differences between those really clear in our own heads first and then be prepared to share that. Arguing or trying to convince people anywhere to vote in favour of gay marriage will need to be done without alienating the very people you are trying to convince by being too patronising, arrogant or dismissive of their fears. And that’s what people have is fears, they can be scared to make changes and may not vote simply to “leave well enough alone” it will be our jobs in conversations, with friends, online, with family to let people know we need this change and why.

eviltwin

There needs to be cohesion between the pro marriage groups, the one things the anti choice crowd have is money and a great network of linking in with one another and make no mistake they will treat this with military precision. They will have everything planned down to the finest detail, posters and leaflets galore full of scare mongering statistics, they will be outside churches every sunday and writing opinion pieces for the papers...they are very strong in terms of their organisation and marriage equality groups really need to do the same so there is no part of the country that goes unnoticed. My worry would be that most of these groups are concentrated in urban areas leaving the rural towns without a strong Yes voice.

L1011

Much of the support change in the childrens rights referendum was due to the Melrose court case / victory about the state breaching the McKenna decision; and the media coverage it got. Not really relevant for another referendum unless the same happens again.

Annasopra

Ambersky wrote: »

I too am nervous about complacency and over confidence, Referendum Campaigns have a habit of narrowing the differences between their percentage points as voting gets closer. In analysing trends people speak about the soft Yes vote and they are the people who have said they would vote for a change but when the question is worded differently they say No. These people can be scared into changing their Yes by arguments that don’t have to hold water, they just have to play into people’s fears.
If you think that people couldn’t reasonably be against gay marriage just think back and remember you could just as well have thought who could reasonably be against people having the right to divorce,

Completely agreed. I was 16 in 1995 and would have voted no to divorce if I could vote.

MetalDog

Hi, this is my first time posting in this forum.

I will be voting in favour of marriage equality, I'm a staunch supporter of LGBT rights.

Can I just say though - we (those in favour) - are going to come up against organisations that can best be described as hate groups. Shall I name them - Coir, Youth Defence and the Iona Institute. These groups are going to lie, lie, and lie and they have platforms in the media who allow them to do so. As Rage Against the Machine said "Know your enemy". I would also count the Catholic Church and its followers as being a significant group with influence, especially among the old and the rural.

They are well funded (American dollars!) and have lapdogs in the media, politics and the judiciary. Let us not be complacent here. Older voters ie the more conservative, are more than likely to vote. Demographics is going to be key if this is going to be carried.

We have moved on a lot since the Divorce Referendum (1995) but Ireland is still quite conservative. There is a real chance that this won't pass, due to not enough people of simply getting out there and voting.

Annasopra

Absolutely Metal dog

For this to pass lgbt people need to actively convince their friends and family to vote.

Regardless of the particular circumstances in the Childrens Rights referendum we should take it as a warning.

A warning that the no side will be outrageous and nasty
A warning that fringe groups completely unrepresentative of anybody really will be given am amplified voice
A warning that it could be lost and there is no room whatsoever for complacency.

DazMarz

As I've said, complacency will be the killer. As it is with an awful lot of votes in this country (elections included). I know many incumbent county councillors in my county who did not get re-elected. Simply because the impression was their seat was "safe" and some of their supporters did not bother voting. The same could happen here.

I know for a fact, I will be campaigning and canvassing for this hard. I will be doing my level best to get as much support for this as I possibly can and will be urging people on to make sure that they get up, get out and vote on it.

And as I've also said, I really, really hope that Sinn Féin put their full weight behind it. Even if they are only doing it for self-serving political means (trying to gain a key demo for the next elections; ie. the LGBT Community). If there is one group in Ireland that could possibly combat the organisation and social media presence of the Iona-mob, it is Sinn Féin. If they put a lot of effort behind it, that will have a huge bearing on the result. If they could get their voters out in support of it, it would be massive. However, the big question is, will they? I have a feeling they might, just to further boost their own "fighting for the downtrodden" image (a bit unfair of me; in fairness, they do do a lot of fighting for those that nobody else will fight for). Fingers crossed.

The mere fact, too, that all the other major and minor political parties (barring the right-wing loonies) support this is huge also. Fair enough, some individual members of the parties may not, but the official party line will be supportive. This includes Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil, Labour, The Socialists, The Greens, PBPA, etc. That is also huge. Deep in Ireland, there still runs feelings for the party that you're loyal to (particularly in rural Ireland). The fact that oul Farmer John might be anti-gay could be tempered by the fact that "his" party has said "Vote in support of it!". It's amazing how blindly loyal to the party line some people can be.

The cross-party support for this is massive. And I think that will go a long way towards negating the high-profile smear campaign that the "No" side will launch. The only question is, will they spend enough money and throw enough weight behind it to make sure that their support is actually effective support? Because the "No" side will undoubtedly spend a fúcking fortune on their campaign. The "Yes" side cannot be out-spent here. There needs to be a massive, high-profile "Yes" campaign that accentuates the positive and does NOT descend to the level that the "No" campaign will undoubtedly sink to.

I believe that the more vitriol and hatred the "No" side spews, the better the chances of the referendum passing. People will just get more and more uncomfortable with how they will try to dehumanise and demonise the LGBT community. This will swing more and more people away from "No" (hopefully). But this will have a detrimental cost also; how many young, innocent gay kids will suddenly find themselves in the firing line for these bigots? What mental toll will this take on them? How many young LGBT kids will suddenly start to see awful hate propaganda and start to possibly believe it? There is a chance that this campaign will get ugly and will have a killing effect upon the mental (and possibly physical, by-proxy) health of younger LGBT people? It does not bear thinking about.

Fingers crossed, this referendum will pass. If it does not, Ireland will be even further a pariah in the eyes of European countries that are far more progressive (see: Germany, France, Netherlands, Spain, UK, etc.) when it comes to this issue. We are at a great crossroads here. We need to take the right path.

ninty9er

Some simple tips from GLEN's referendum event last week

• Don't use the word homophobe
• Don't use the phrase same sex
• Don't assume religious people will vote against
• Don't assume old people will vote against
• Don't assume young people will vote in favour
• Love thy neighbour
• MAKE NO ASSUMPTIONS

Annasopra

ninty9er wrote: »

Some simple tips from GLEN's referendum event last week

• Don't use the word homophobe
• Don't use the phrase same sex
• Don't assume religious people will vote against
• Don't assume old people will vote against
• Don't assume young people will vote in favour
• Love thy neighbour
• MAKE NO ASSUMPTIONS

Sounds good. I actually broadly agree with that!

I think personally calling people bigots and homophobes should only be done in extreme circumstances and that its very unhelpful to a referendum campaign to label everyone who might vote no as homophobes.

Annasopra

I think it has been put well in AH. A quote from Colm O'Gorman was just posted.

"There are also people who have concerns that must be heard and answered. Changing our constitution, especially in an area such as marriage and family, is something Irish people take seriously. Those of us who propose change must continue to make the case for it. We must do this with care, and recognise that not everyone who is yet to be convinced is motivated by bigotry. We must listen to their concerns and respond with openness and clarity. If we do, I believe we will succeed"

Ambersky

Are there any links to the points GLEN were making at the Referendum event Joeytheparrot I cant seem to find any more on it than the bit you posted which I thought was very interesting. I would like to know more.

Annasopra

I wasn't there.

No idea. I quoted 99ers post.

Ambersky

No idea. I quoted 99ers post.

Oh sorry how silly of me. Well 99er do you have any more info or links to suggestions from GLEN or to what was said at that get together.

J_E

The thread on After Hours is awful. People just arguing for the sake of argument. If you feel strongly about the referendum passing, then educate people rather than roaring at them...it's extremely childish behaviour.

floggg

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Sounds good. I actually broadly agree with that!

I think personally calling people bigots and homophobes should only be done in extreme circumstances and that its very unhelpful to a referendum campaign to label everyone who might vote no as homophobes.

I think its a case of we might get further if we refrain from identifying homophobes as homophobes as much as possible.

The only non-homophobic reason to vote no is stupidity though.

Annasopra

floggg wrote: »

I think its a case of we might get further if we refrain from identifying homophobes as homophobes as much as possible.

The only non-homophobic reason to vote no is stupidity though.

I've been thinking about this thread and the AH thread and what Ninety9er said and what Cydoniac said.

In ways I think a lot of the AH thread has been perhaps a bit too combative. (I include my own posting there too)

I think we need to engage with people a bit more rather than jumping up and down and shouting "homophobe" at them.

eviltwin

Homophobes can't really be changed anyway and they are in the minority so I'd leave them to it. We've seen with Pantigate how that word can backfire - even when its a completely accurate description. Emotions will run high and the No side will try and get people outraged by using pejorative descriptions of gay people, its important to respond calmly and respectfully even if they don't deserve it. Just keep your eyes on the prize.

Annasopra

eviltwin wrote: »

Homophobes can't really be changed anyway

Yes they can.

If we are going to be succesful in the referendum we need to stop making assumptions like that.

Theres a big undecided group in the middle who need convincing. If we start shouting "homophobe" at some of them from the outset then we're going to lose.

eviltwin

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Yes they can.

If we are going to be succesful in the referendum we need to stop making assumptions like that.

I think the yes campaign will be more productive focusing on the undecided. Just my opinion.

Annasopra

eviltwin wrote: »

I think the yes campaign will be more productive focusing on the undecided. Just my opinion.

I agree with but again you're making assumptions.

I think there are people with hardened homophobic views that won't change but there may be some people with homophobic views who may be a little bit more open minded and open to persuasion and have an ability to change their views.

eviltwin

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Again you're making assumptions.

I think there are people with hardened homophobic views that won't change but there may be some people with homophobic views who may be a little bit more open minded and open to persuasion.

I probably am. Unfortunately I know a lot of very homophobic people who won't entertain a yes vote under any circumstances. We've all seen the debates on the subject, some people can't be changed. Personally I will use my time to engage with the don't knows and try and get them to see the benefits of a yes vote cause if we don't the no side certainly will.

floggg

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I've been thinking about this thread and the AH thread and what Ninety9er said and what Cydoniac said.

In ways I think a lot of the AH thread has been perhaps a bit too combative. (I include my own posting there too)

I think we need to engage with people a bit more rather than jumping up and down and shouting "homophobe" at them.

Yes, but after hours isn't the real world.

This issue has been trashed out in AH a number of times and there's few undecideds out there.

I doubt there are few undecideds out in the general public either to be honest. While I agree that in real world campaigning and conversations we should engage differently, I think the real campaign will be to encourage turn out from passive supporters.

I see most of the campaigning being to encourage friends and families to get out and vote, and it will be as much about relating our personal stories and showing the very real impact this can have for us than arguing the pros and cons.

floggg

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Yes they can.

If we are going to be succesful in the referendum we need to stop making assumptions like that.

Theres a big undecided group in the middle who need convincing. If we start shouting "homophobe" at some of them from the outset then we're going to lose.

They can, but not by referendum campaigning.

I think they homophobes tend to change when LGBT people stop being "other" - when friends and family come out and they finally see it from the other side.

For a lot of these people there is nothing that's nice polite stranger on tv or at their doorstep can tell them to change their minds.

It only becomes real for them when it's a loved one delivering the message.

Peanut Butter Jelly

Hi everyone, I just wanted to pop in to say that I'll vote for it to be passed, and I'll try to get others to do the same. I even changed my sig for it :pac:

I also posted a thread here for counterarguments to the likes of Senator Ronan Mullen and all those against SSM. Please don't be turned away by the fact it's in Atheism & Agnosticism, it's a thread everyone pro-SSM is welcome to contribute to .

Annasopra

Ambersky wrote: »

Are there any links to the points GLEN were making at the Referendum event Joeytheparrot I cant seem to find any more on it than the bit you posted which I thought was very interesting. I would like to know more.

I found this on the AH thread

http://www.kaycairns.com/#!How-to-Win-the-Equal-Marriage-Referendum/cczi/82D4D649-32FC-4B81-8B03-59CC08A821E5

Vojera

My wife and I had about 100 adults at our civil partnership last year and I'll be individually asking every one of those people to remember to take half an hour out of their day to vote. It's a small thing to them, but it'll be huge to all of us. I imagine they'll be supportive since they came to help us celebrate, but, like the rest of you, I'm terrified they'll assume things will turn out alright and not make the effort to ensure their voice is heard.

ninty9er

Ambersky wrote: »

Oh sorry how silly of me. Well 99er do you have any more info or links to suggestions from GLEN or to what was said at that get together.

When people bring religion, god, sex, children, adoption or family into it, kindly and politely advise that is not the issue under discussion (talking politely under them if they attempt to talk over you) and advise it is about commitment, love and strengthening the institution of marriage by allowing more consenting adults to engage in it.

LegacyUser

This referendum is very much ours to lose.

I think we can't go around saying "If you aren't planning on voting yes you are a homophobe". We can't get worked up about how oppressed we used to be. Everything we say should be positive - it is up to the No side to make their arguments look foolish.

Just my two cents.

Annasopra

AnonyMoosey wrote: »

This referendum is very much ours to lose.

I think we can't go around saying "If you aren't planning on voting yes you are a homophobe". We can't get worked up about how oppressed we used to be. Everything we say should be positive - it is up to the No side to make their arguments look foolish.

Just my two cents.

Completely agree - when you read the underlying data in the polls it is certainly ours to lose.

http://www.redcresearch.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Same-Sex-Marriage-Poll-Feb-2014.pdf

Read it. It shows the yes vote is very very insecure.

Bowlardo

is there a site that you can check if you registered to vote. I'm registered for local election and I think European elections so I am assuming I am registered to vote?
When will do I receive my voting card?

Annasopra

Bowlardo wrote: »

is there a site that you can check if you registered to vote. I'm registered for local election and I think European elections so I am assuming I am registered to vote?
When will do I receive my voting card?

www.checktheregister.ie

You need to check you are on the draft 2015/2016 register

You'll get a voting card when there is an election or referendum