Outdoor Wedding Ceremony - Validity

Addle

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/humanists-to-take-legal-action-to-overturn-outdoor-weddings-ban-1.1849681

I know it's been debated often on this forum so bear the attached in mind when organising your ceremony.

Gatica

We were lucky to have a wonderful outdoor ceremony before they tried to enforce the Registrar rules on everyone else. It's a shame really that they're trying to control how/where a wedding takes places that's presided by a supposedly qualified person.

rainbow kirby

The General Registrar’s office said it insisted on weddings being held indoors “to avoid situations where marriages are solemnised to which there may be an impediment, to prevent forced marriages, and to provide an opportunity for the making of objections.”

It did not explain how four walls and a roof could safeguard against such eventualities.

This says it all really... surely for pretty much all of their objections listed an outdoor ceremony actually makes things easier?

conf101

It's complete nonsense from the HSE.

We're getting married in August and had arranged with our celebrant (who has been brilliant from day 1) to have an outdoor ceremony. Initially the plan was that we would have to go indoors during the declaration part of the ceremony to fulfill HSE criteria (just us, celebrant & witnesses) and that would be fine. But we got a call last week saying that unfortunately we can't even do that any more, the whole thing has to now take place indoors.

I'm sure the HUI will fight it and it will eventually be resolved but for now it's a pile of crap from the HSE. There's no sensible justification for it.

nearzero

It was fab to hear the Humanist society being interviewed on the radio - they put across their point so well & spoke so eloquently about the subject.

They pointed out that the law does state 'any place open to the public' and that they did feel the HSE was enforcing the 'building' regulation onto that phrase wasnt within the spirit of the law. It is open to interruption & they are choosing to enforce it very literally.

The HSE are maintaining that its to prevent forced or secret marriages! But there is no statistics to back this up & the Humanist society pointed out that they could be asked to perform a ceremony in a hotel in some back room but they cant have it out on the lawn in full few of everyone - so the HSE point doesnt hold much water! Interesting though

Sulla Felix

BNit of a pain in the ass, but Presumably you'll be indoors at some stage during the day? Outdoor ceremony (most of the ceremony is meaningless legally anyway) and when you get to the reception duck into a spare room with two witnesses. The actual legal part takes only a few minutes if you're so inclined.
Or am I missing something?

pooch90

They won't do any of it outdoors at all Sulla Felix.

conf101

Sulla Felix wrote: »

BNit of a pain in the ass, but Presumably you'll be indoors at some stage during the day? Outdoor ceremony (most of the ceremony is meaningless legally anyway) and when you get to the reception duck into a spare room with two witnesses. The actual legal part takes only a few minutes if you're so inclined.
Or am I missing something?

That's the way Humanists had been doing it: have the ceremony outdoors and then pop indoors for the legal bit and everyone was happy.

But that's what the HSE are preventing them from doing. They say that this constitutes 2 ceremonies so each invalidates the other. Complete nonsense as they would originally claim that a fully outdoor ceremony is invalid so how they can now claim that it is if part takes place indoors is ridiculous!

stinkle

constitutes 2 ceremonies? do they say the same about religious ones? like the wedding mass followed by the bit when the couple disappear off somewhere and everyone else gets a bit bored waiting til they come back?

Addle

That's not another ceremony, that's just signing the register, and I've never not seen it done away from the congregation.

stinkle

I know that it's not another ceremony, that's why I'm aghast. But regardless of the religious stuff that precedes it, signing the register is the important part. Once the 5 signatures are on the MRF and the legal words were spoken by the registered solemniser and couple that should be sufficient. Having handed in our MRF and received or marriage cert yesterday I know if we'd lost that form the registrar wouldnt have entertained us no matter who said what or where on the day.

I can't see how they are able to treat "humanist ceremony outdoors, with non-legally binding pleasant words spoken, followed by indoorsy legalities with 2 witnesses and celebrant" different to "religious service of choice, with non-legally binding religiousy promises, followed by legalities with 2 witnesses and celebrant". We had a handfasting for example, it's no more legal than a prayer, but surely it should be ok for couples to do whatever ceremonial stuff they like, then retire indoors and say the required legal words in front of celebrant and witnesses.

In my experience theres an hour or so of mass and then everyone is left waiting while couple and witnesses go off to the sacristry with priest and sign/pose for pics.

Gatica

I don't think the couples go off when in the church, it's done there and then in front of everyone and in the same building.
The whole thing is ridiculous though. Anyone should be able to register, if they meet certain requirements and perform ceremonies. It's such a monopoly here for those on the "inside"...

stinkle

Our local church has an area where they go back to. Always thought it was strange and annoying. It's old and huge though, maybe more modern buildings don't bother/have the space?

Addle

The only thing that's good about the law regarding getting married in Ireland is that there's no chance of Vegas style elopements/mistakes!
After a 3 month wait, everything about the ceremony should be a choice.

rainbow kirby

English couples seem to get on just fine with a 16 day notice period :pac:

conf101

There's a huge contradiction in the HSE's "2 ceremonies" thing. The whole thing makes no sense and any reasonable explanation of it is impossible. It's infuriating for me because the whole thing has come too late for me to make alternative arrangements!

stinkle

Legal now hooray http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/al-fresco-weddings-get-green-light-after-ruling-by-ag-1.1866981

Gatica

about bloody time!

Although from what I understand it was never illegal, just in murky waters since the HSE were frowning upon it.

rainbow kirby

Good news, now just the Irish weather to contend with for those who want one

Milly33

Yep its great news,,, As above jus the weather now to sort out...

pooch90

Brilliant news,outdoor wedding in 2 weeks. I'm over the moon!!!

Milly33

wow congratulations to you.. Did ye have a civil planned indoors and just ring them and say ye wanted outdoors or what did ye do

pooch90

It was always planned for outdoors, then when they messed with it all, we were going to do legalities few days before and blessing outdoors. So just cancelled the thing for few days before. Jammy timing!!!

Milly33

I see I see.. All ends well, will be nicer to have it all done on the one day for ye

pooch90

Also nice to have just one wedding anniversary!

my username

Sorry to drag up an old thread! Is the current status of this still murky or is this definitely legal now? I ask because the HSE website still lists open air as a no go

fits

Really? Where did you see that. Its definitely legal. Should be specific on humanism website

my username

fits wrote: »

Really? Where did you see that. Its definitely legal. Should be specific on humanism website

Www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/1/bdm/marriagesinireland/civil ceremony.html

Venues such as marquees, private dwellings or the open air are not acceptable. To ensure the venue is approved in time for your wedding you should arrange for the approval well in advance of notifying the Registrar.

Here Comes The Trio

my username wrote: »

Venues such as marquees, private dwellings or the open air are not acceptable. To ensure the venue is approved in time for your wedding you should arrange for the approval well in advance of notifying the Registrar.

This only applies to HSE ceremonies though, right?
We have played outdoors for Humanist ceremonies and ceremonies by the Grace Christian Church, both of which are fully legal ceremonies and everything took place outdoors.

pooch90

No it's all OK now.
AFAIK you have to be able to give a definite address though, not just the middle of the woods.

neris

the 1st mistake made was letting the HSE take control over weddings/registration

lazygal

neris wrote: »

the 1st mistake made was letting the HSE take control over weddings/registration

The Hse didn't "take control over" anything. When the law was changed to allow civil marriage ceremonies to take place outside registry offices the Hse simply followed the ministerial diktat on the whole thing. Do you really think the Hse "took control over" civil marriage just to make life difficult?
Some people would want to cop themselves on. There's no requirement to have a Hse celebrant unless you choose to do so. Getting married in Ireland is not some big monopoly, which the Hse loves controlling.

mrsbyrne

lazygal wrote: »

The Hse didn't "take control over" anything. When the law was changed to allow civil marriage ceremonies to take place outside registry offices the Hse simply followed the ministerial diktat on the whole thing. Do you really think the Hse "took control over" civil marriage just to make life difficult?
Some people would want to cop themselves on. There's no requirement to have a Hse celebrant unless you choose to do so. Getting married in Ireland is not some big monopoly, which the Hse loves controlling.

As I see it the fact that until a few years ago everyone more or less married in church and the priest took care of more or less all the paperwork is the main reason for all the consternation surrounding organising the business end of your wedding.They're not doing that any more. There's nothing will knock the romance out of your recent engagement like having to complete some forms and gather up some documents.

Addle

mrsbyrne wrote: »

There's nothing will knock the romance out of your recent engagement like having to complete some forms and gather up some documents.

Well deciding to get married is a very serious thing, not to be taken lightly.
A bit of notice and some paper work is merited.

lazygal

mrsbyrne wrote: »

As I see it the fact that until a few years ago everyone more or less married in church and the priest took care of more or less all the paperwork is the main reason for all the consternation surrounding organising the business end of your wedding.They're not doing that any more. There's nothing will knock the romance out of your recent engagement like having to complete some forms and gather up some documents.

There was always a requirement to register intent with the state regardless of the church documents. I found it quite romantic registering our intent to marry, and organising the solemnising of our relationship.
Anyway life isn't all sunshine and rainbows. Getting married is a serious undertaking and filling out a few forms isn't the end of romance.

pwurple

mrsbyrne wrote: »

As I see it the fact that until a few years ago everyone more or less married in church and the priest took care of more or less all the paperwork is the main reason for all the consternation surrounding organising the business end of your wedding.They're not doing that any more. There's nothing will knock the romance out of your recent engagement like having to complete some forms and gather up some documents.

Did you forgot about the Banns? Those were announced for weeks before an impending marriage. Those were only abolished in 1983.

Marriage is a legal item, it's got forms, documents and is committed to public records permanently.

mrsbyrne

I help people fill forms everyday and even the most straightforward questions cause consternation in toxic levels.
I got married in 96 and apart fRom letters of freedom and religious certificates being produced I don't recall any onerous paperwork.

lazygal

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I help people fill forms everyday and even the most straightforward questions cause consternation in toxic levels.
I got married in 96 and apart fRom letters of freedom and religious certificates being produced I don't recall any onerous paperwork.

There's no consternation in registration of intent to marry. The hse register fills out everything for you. You bring your id and payment by credit card and they check everything. It was a lot less work than friends of mine who needed letters of freedom and dispensation for non Catholic partners or baptism certs from far away parishes. And then they had to do the civil paperwork on top of that. I don't understand how any element of the registration of intent process can cause consternation, especially if you don't need the hse to marry you.

Looshkin

Just checking, so we can go ahead and arrange a ceremony somewhere outdoors (with landowners permission) to be married by the spiritualist union as long as it has a proper address? Is that ok now? (Newly engaged, no idea what I'm doing with this planning stuff!! Just want a small outdoor wedding if possible.)

Gatica

Even outdoors it needs to be a proper location. It can't be a field somewhere even if it's owned by Mr Joe at Ballynacaddy, Co. Carlow...
It can be outside of a hotel, or some other venue. It can't be in the middle of the woods even if the woods have an address. It also can't be a home address.