The value of Martial Art Training in your Life

Tuisceanch

Naturally people have different reasons and approaches for engaging in those arts which are granted the title of martial arts. Some people will naturally look to martial arts as a means of developing a effective means of self defense whereas others will want to test themselves in combat. Others,recognizing their lack of true warrior spirit will seek to gain fitness and confidence from such practice. Some will use their fighting ability in order to be more effective in their chosen profession. Others will recognize their lack of fighting ability but use the qualities gained from training to effect a more harmonious relationship with the world. Some will recognize the spiritual essence of their practice and embrace that understanding.The ambitious few will embrace the whole art. All this of course depends on the extent of the art you practice and the ability,knowledge and availability of a qualified instructor. Equally important is of course the intent,ambition,diligence,aptitude,capability and courage of the student. Some people will be fleeced by unscrupulous types and retreat in disillusionment and some will gain a deluded sense of their fighting prowess.Others will be rendered mad and disappear into another realm.

You get the idea! Please feel free to post anything you wish to express but please try to be constructive and even when you are profoundly in disagreement with someone try and maintain a zen approach. Please give a little at first before requesting something of others as this can be misconstrued as demanding and won't necessarily be received with the spirit you intended. Try and refrain from preaching to others because nobody really wants that and don't feel entitled to scold others based on your own misconceptions because nobody appreciates self-appointed authority figures. It's of course an idealistic approach but let's see what happens even if it's nothing at all!

Tuisceanch

I have just watched a promotional video for a class which is advertised as having something to do with Tai Chi Chaun. This class is based in Dublin.I have to say I'm astounded by the price of this course which of course I won't mention and also the quality of the supposed skilled practitioners was so lamentable that it reminded me of a skit from the 'The Savage Eye'. I had to refrain from commenting on the video because it's not my place and it's unnecessary but I do find it disgraceful that this nonsense is being advertised. With respect to my topic I would say that some people gain a severe state of delusion akin to joining the Moonies from training in something which is completely made up and nothing more than a pyramid scheme. Since I train in Tai Chi Chaun I feel entitled to make this point because Tai Chi Chaun when trained properly regardless of level of competence is a beautiful and beneficial art on many levels and I'm deeply affronted by this sham. Unfortunately I don't think it's appropriate for me to post the video as people have to learn to discriminate for themselves.

Pat Mustard

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Some people will naturally look to martial arts as a means of developing a effective means of self defense whereas others will want to test themselves in combat.

For me, the main purpose of a martial art is to train to fight.

I don't see how someone can make an accurate claim that they can defend themselves or others in a hand to hand situation unless they are able to fight.

Tuisceanch

The Mustard wrote: »

For me, the main purpose of a martial art is to train to fight.

I don't see how someone can make an accurate claim that they can defend themselves or others in a hand to hand situation unless they are able to fight.

The ability to use your martial art effectively in a real combat situation is necessarily the foundation and from whence you can develop a greater understanding of the art. However some people can train with a teacher who is himself or herself competent in the fighting aspect of the art but not really have the ability themselves to develop those skills. They will,of course,gain some benefits from the experience and as long as they don't delude themselves into thinking they are effective fighters then they can legitimately say they train in a martial art if they so feel inclined. Personally I don't consider myself a martial artist in the sense of a proficient fighter (I haven't trained long enough and I'm middle aged) but I do know I enjoy what I learn and I have had excellent teachers and so labels are of no import. I do take your point though and it's appreciated and respected.

smacl

The Mustard wrote: »

For me, the main purpose of a martial art is to train to fight.

I don't see how someone can make an accurate claim that they can defend themselves or others in a hand to hand situation unless they are able to fight.

Martial arts is about fighting for sure, but I'd question the value of learning martial arts purely from a self defence perspective. Those who can fight best in my view are those who train to compete and win in open full contact format competitions.

The value to me has been in training to a level where I could give a decent account of myself in an international competition, working with a coach and team that want to win and are willing to put the work in to do so. Travelling to remote corners of the world to meet a bunch of people, beat the living crap out of one another, and go out on the major lash afterwards. Being able to spar and enjoy a scrap with someone, where the intent is to win without causing serious injury. More recently, to try and apply enough technique to hide my lamentable lack of conditioning in middle age.

I'm in my late 40s at present, and currently out of training for over a year. Over 20 odd years of training, I've had very few occasions where I used self defence skills off the mats, and of those probably would have got away without them.

Pat Mustard

smacl wrote: »

Martial arts is about fighting for sure, but I'd question the value of learning martial arts purely from a self defence perspective. Those who can fight best in my view are those who train to compete and win in open full contact format competitions.

I agree.

Zen65

The Mustard wrote: »

For me, the main purpose of a martial art is to train to fight.

Yes, that makes some sense.

Though if you train for 40+ years and never need to fight, does that mean your training has all been a massive waste of time (and money)? Of course you can compete in contests, which serves to enhance your fighting skill, but as you age this is not usually the case (for very many people) and yet middle-aged and older people will still train in their chosen MA. Are they wasting their time?

There are more effective ways to defend yourself. Survival courses, de-escalation skills, conflict avoidance and a large dog will get you out of as many potentially violent situations as a black belt. The best self-defence courses place little emphasis on the fighting content in them.

I think the fighting element of a MA is just one aspect of it, just as the competitive element can be a part of it. I am past my competitive days, but my passion for training is as strong as ever. It is my bedrock when my mind is troubled over anything . . . work, family, relationships, finances etc. It forces me to breathe more effectively, to focus on my inner feelings and from there to become more aware of what's happening around me. Perhaps some people will consider that to be 'spiritual' though I avoid the term.

It is a community of people whose company I cherish for their sobering wisdom and wit, and it is my insight into the true meaning of Master Ken's bloggs and video clips.

Above all, I use my training to compete against myself. To fight my shortcomings. To overcome my inabilities to achieve 'perfection' whatever that may be. This is not the preserve of martial arts; it is an inherent benefit from any form of strict training which you voluntarily undertake despite the pain and effort it requires of you.

Pat Mustard

Different strokes for different folks.

Peetrik

I'm completely with Mustard in the sense that I believe Martial arts are about fighting. Without fighting it's not martial arts, it's just meditation or dancing or a fitness club with bowing.

So while I'm aware that people practice different styles solely for the side benefits of fitness, fun, they enjoy the discipline and the feeling of progress with each new belt etc, to me, unless they are learning to fight, they aren't learning martial arts.

But thats just me, I'm young and see the world in black and white and have been wrong more times than I can count.

Tuisceanch

Peetrik wrote: »

I'm completely with Mustard in the sense that I believe Martial arts are about fighting. Without fighting it's not martial arts, it's just meditation or dancing or a fitness club with bowing.

So while I'm aware that people practice different styles solely for the side benefits of fitness, fun, they enjoy the discipline and the feeling of progress with each new belt etc, to me, unless they are learning to fight, they aren't learning martial arts.

But thats just me, I'm young and see the world in black and white and have been wrong more times than I can count.

No I don't think you are wrong because the fighting skills of a martial art are it's bedrock and unless you at least understand the martial side then really the core of the art will always remain a mystery. Developing proficiency as a fighter through competition will mark you out as being as someone with serious potential to explore the real essence of the art.Besides it is showing some capability of developing fighting skills that the real essence of the art will be transmitted to you because otherwise a proficient teacher would just let you content yourself with what makes you happy.

Peetrik

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Besides it is showing some capability of developing fighting skills that the real essence of the art will be transmitted to you...

Er, I have no idea if we're on the same page at all. Let me clarify.

What I'm saying is that there is no 'real essence' or 'mysterious core' or nonsense like that.

What I'm saying is that martial arts begins and ends at learning to fight.

Niall Keane

Of course martial arts is centred on fighting. I think what is being said is reflected in famous gazette writing in 1640 - "martial arts proceeds from the complex to the simple", this is copied by Bruce Lee centuries later in his metaphor about a sculpture and chiseling away the unnecessary.

Basically martial arts is minimalism - minimising risk and maximising potential with the least effort. where novices have different mindsets and "techniques" for striking and wrestling a enlightened martial "artist" has discovered the "unity" in movements, so he can follow the advice of the Nei Jia classics: "the jin (technique) is broken the yi (intent) unbroken.

Here I'm talking about effortless proficiency - infinite choice born out of skill and awareness. Things have to be there, and not thought about, as such there is an element of zen "emptiness" or the daoist "unity" - this mindset can be useful in other areas of life. Perhaps this is what is found to be spiritual and profound - a profound simplicity, elegance in expression.

If martial arts is simply combos, conditioning and maximum power, then it has a shelf life, stale at 30 - 40! hang up the gloves, sit at the bar and reminisce about past glory? If it is about seeking purity of expression, and greater awareness then the journey never stops and it enriches all aspects of our lives.

Without considering the "artistic" element (and obviously that involves its training) that the martial arts have brought to my life, ignoring the great teacher it has been and continues to be, about all aspects of art and life, martial arts have also allowed me to travel extensively around the world to many interesting places and meet many good friends, teaching students in Uganda, giving seminars in Europe, trekking through rainforest in central China with my Tai Chi brothers exploring ancient temples on more ancient mountains, meeting with kindred spirits from every continent (bar Antarctica though ) working with international organisations and gaining friendship with colleagues all over the world, never mind meeting up again with old opponents and watching our students compete where we once did, and enjoying "a drink at the bar reminiscing about past glory"

FTA69

Peetrik wrote: »

Er, I have no idea if we're on the same page at all. Let me clarify.

What I'm saying is that there is no 'real essence' or 'mysterious core' or nonsense like that.

What I'm saying is that martial arts begins and ends at learning to fight.

Yup. As far as I'm concerned the "philosophy" behind many martial arts should extend to respecting your teacher, your partners and pursuing a healthy and active lifestyle with the view to maximising your effectiveness in your chosen discipline. Competition is also a major element of it; whether that be you entering grappling opens or even just getting into white collar bouts if you took up boxing in your 20s.

However these are simply the framework; martial arts are about fighting and more specifically the application of things that work and the total disregard for things that don't. It isn't a coincidence that things like boxing, Muay Thai and wrestling are the most effective at breeding scrappers for the simple reason they are sparring-heavy and have zero tolerance for things that can't be pulled off in competition.

Tuisceanch

Peetrik wrote: »

Er, I have no idea if we're on the same page at all. Let me clarify.

What I'm saying is that there is no 'real essence' or 'mysterious core' or nonsense like that.

What I'm saying is that martial arts begins and ends at learning to fight.

Only some people will be trained in certain techniques based on their ability and also their character and others will be there to provide an income for the teacher. Some martial arts have not much cultural inheritance or even depth and are simply about fighting and although this is the foundation of all martial arts it is not so interesting to some people as they mature and wish to gain more from their experience. But you are right we are not on the same page as is clearly evident but that's no problem. We all find our own way.

Mellor

I'd side with the lads saying it starts and ends with fighting. There are a number if different aspects to my training that aren't solely fight related (strength work, conditioning, mobility) and these have their own benefits, and I would still do this if I didn't do MA. But I think I put more effort in, dissecting everything in order to get the carryover to fighting.

Tuisceanch

The title of this topic was 'The Value of Martial Arts Training in Your Life'. Even if there is disagreement that Martial Training is not just only about being able to fight there is surely benefit that martial arts training brings into your life besides the ability to fight. Did it change the way you perceived the world? Did meeting people who had a focused and disciplined approach to their practice help you veer from the destructive path you were on? ..etc. This is nothing to do with spirituality but just ordinary life and the stuff that stories are made of.

Niall Keane

Begins and ends with fighting? That's seriously shallow!

Surely even in the ring / cage / lei tai there are moments of clarity and perfection that turn an otherwise prosaic life into moments of pure poetry? Celebratory epiphanies and moments of enlightenment? Surely if you have taken the pains to achieve noticeable results in martial arts, life has been an epic saga of roller coaster experience rather than the droll day to day of wage slavery? It must have offered BIGGER insights into life?

Surely the totality of the experience means more than simply a skilful aptitude for violence? Or are you still journeymen sheep, running from the wolves, stepping into the ring to prove you can? just to overcome fear of violence or ageing etc... Are you still PUTTING that combo you practised on a dead bag into the ring or are you engaging with the opponent, with the experience?

T.S. Elliot spoke of the “objective correlative” - the ability of a poet to instil emotion in the reader through the use of style and imagery. All art is about this, from painting to architecture to martial arts... we entice a specific response in the opponent through use of rhythms, feints and draws etc. so we can capitalise on it and defeat him, truly as Sun Tzu said “the art of war is the art of deception”!

How brain dead one would have to be to suffer the necessary monotony of repeated martial arts training for it to begin and end with fighting! Really guys? I'm shocked if this is true, that one can be content to sacrifice years of life for a few fleeting minutes of experience. There has to be a deeper meaning for everyone for f sake?

Like I just cannot believe anyone to be so blind and one dimensional, in a word stupid, to blind themselves to a holistic view of what they are engaged in. I'm not talking just martial arts here either! For all the great combat sports lads I know, the martial arts experience has become a structure to view and understand so many other aspects of life. Just like religion is to others, or art and music to others? How could it be otherwise? How could you escape this? Like I know dogs have to be trained to piss outside and for some “bright sparks” this training is situational so you have to repeat the exact same dumb **** in every new house they go to, but humans are supposed to be a bit smarter than that! Affinity and synchronicity and all that...

Lads, I know its the latest craze to act all anti-intellectual and thuggish in martial arts, ridiculing anything and anyone who isn't just sparring and hitting bags, and sounding like the caricature in the uniflu add, and I know this all stemmed from the backlash against unrealistic martial arts practices, but the pendulum has seriously swung too far in the other direction now, if this hollow view of martial arts or even combat sports is prevailing, it just makes average martial artists look dumb!

And when I look at the greats I see art, saenchai's draws, misdirection and double timings come straight out of Musashi's pages though he may never have read them for all I know, the Gracies writings I've seen could be written by Wang Tsung Yeuh or Chaing Nai Zhou, they are so similar, the professionalism and science that goes into training elite sanda athletes I've personally witnessed, where experiments on inducing reactions and trigger responses are carried out costing millions by many a national Olympic organisation, knowledge shared amongst all athletes not just martial artists, hell the best are the best BECAUSE their martial arts extends far beyond “just fighting” !

edit: Actually I refuse to believe anyone is that dumb, perhaps they are reacting against past experience with mac dojo MAs in wishing to express distance between anything other than fighting in their training, fair enough, but that debate is over for 20 years. The question being asked now is how training (and be polite and treat it as training that is every bit as tough as your own! and that we have all been around for the last 20 years, and some of us allways had resistance in training, and heavy sparing and even scores of intertnational full contact experience) has this impacted on your day to day life by adding value to it? Or are you asleep? (if sleeping, maybe post a selfie here with your other pals: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055298886 )

Peetrik

Niall Keane wrote: »

Begins and ends with fighting? That's seriously shallow!

Surely even in the ring / cage / lei tai there are moments of clarity and perfection that turn an otherwise prosaic life into moments of pure poetry? Celebratory epiphanies and moments of enlightenment? Surely if you have taken the pains to achieve noticeable results in martial arts, life has been an epic saga of roller coaster experience rather than the droll day to day of wage slavery?

Of course there have been, incredibly rewarding moments, pitting yourself against an opponent in competition, going head to head and coming out on top. Not to mention all the cumulative smaller physical and mental well being benefits that accompany martial arts

BUT.....

All of these things can be experienced with running, or cycling or crossfit or whatever. These moments of clarity and benefits, while wonderful and fulfilling are not martial arts. The fighting part is martial arts.

While you may experience the rewarding benefits and moments of clarity from training your heart out and winning a kata competition... in my humble opinion, it's not martial arts.

But that's just me.

Niall Keane

Peetrik wrote: »

Of course there have been, incredibly rewarding moments, pitting yourself against an opponent in competition, going head to head and coming out on top. Not to mention all the cumulative smaller physical and mental well being benefits that accompany martial arts

BUT.....

All of these things can be experienced with running, or cycling or crossfit or whatever. These moments of clarity and benefits, while wonderful and fulfilling are not martial arts. The fighting part is martial arts.

While you may experience the rewarding benefits and moments of clarity from training your heart out and winning a kata competition... in my humble opinion, it's not martial arts.

But that's just me.

I have never been in a kata comp, over 150 international chinese wrestling matches, and 87 international sanda bouts, but no katas sorry!

Peetrik

Niall Keane wrote: »

I have never been in a kata comp, over 150 international chinese wrestling matches, and 87 international sanda bouts, but no katas sorry!

Not implying for a second that you have Niall, I've followed your posts on here and have nothing but respect for you or your accomplishments. It's clear that you train to fight.

Niall Keane

It is all part of the art, fighting without training is just saturday night on camden street - haymakers and shouting.

Niall Keane

certainly what sets martial arts apart from say crossfit is the fighting, but there are artistic skills there in martial arts that are trained that belong solely to fighting.

Take feints, crossfit I'm sure doesn't train them?

now the other day my 3 year old was getting upset about a toy that was broken, instinctively I took it in my right hand to check it out, and Thomas the tank engine had a wheel broken. Hysterics ensued. I took another car in my left hand, concealed mind you! threw out my left like a punch, shok the hand (fist) sometimes revealing the new toy sometimes concealing it, until his attention has left Thomas entirely. Could a smart parent have done this anyway - of course, but it just happens naturally for me, I approach the hysterics of a three year old as I would an opponent, (parents will understand this!) and I use trained calmness and conditioned responses of misdirectin to solve the problem, I wont go into how I use similar approaches in Architecture dealing with Clients and Contractors... can't give all the secrets away! :pac:

FTA69

And when I look at the greats I see art, saenchai's draws, misdirection and double timings come straight out of Musashi's pages though he may never have read them for all I know

Pretty safe bet there I'd say. Saenchai's ability comes from years of practical training and hard-won experience over thousands of hours of sparring and hundreds of competitive fights. He developed his skills the same way Venus Williams developed her tennis serve or Andrea Pirlo developed his positioning i.e. practical application. Can we not just respect their skill and athleticism without concocting a massive backstory to it? Is Pirlo's footballing ability a lesser thing because it isn't rooted in Chinese myth?

Surely even in the ring / cage / lei tai there are moments of clarity and perfection that turn an otherwise prosaic life into moments of pure poetry? Celebratory epiphanies and moments of enlightenment? Surely if you have taken the pains to achieve noticeable results in martial arts, life has been an epic saga of roller coaster experience rather than the droll day to day of wage slavery? It must have offered BIGGER insights into life?

Is this a convoluted way of saying there's a buzz to be had off competition? I don't think anyone here is saying there aren't moments of self-discovery that come about as a result of hard training in combat sports; that's all part of it as well. However, I box to box. I enjoy the physical, mental and competitive aspects of it. These don't have to be compartmentalised into a particular philosophy.

Lads, I know its the latest craze to act all anti-intellectual and thuggish in martial arts, ridiculing anything and anyone who isn't just sparring and hitting bags, and I know this all stemmed from the backlash against unrealistic martial arts practices, but the pendulum has seriously swung to far in the other direction now, if this hollow view of martial arts or even combat sports is prevailing, it just makes average martial artists look dumb

Is it? Personally I don't think people are dipsh*ts because they want to concentrate on the more athletic and skill-based elements of a given martial art as opposed to the philosophical ones. Boxing for instance isn't accompanied by the rafts of obscure writings you allude to in your post, that doesn't make it any more or less "hollow" in my eyes.

Niall Keane

FTA69 wrote: »

Pretty safe bet there I'd say. Saenchai's ability comes from years of practical training and hard-won experience over thousands of hours of sparring and hundreds of competitive fights. He developed his skills the same way Venus Williams developed her tennis serve or Andrea Pirlo developed his positioning i.e. practical application. Can we not just respect their skill and athleticism without concocting a massive backstory to it? Is Pirlo's footballing ability a lesser thing because it isn't rooted in Chinese myth?



Is this a convoluted way of saying there's a buzz to be had off competition? I don't think anyone here is saying there aren't moments of self-discovery that come about as a result of hard training in combat sports; that's all part of it as well. However, I box to box. I enjoy the physical, mental and competitive aspects of it. These don't have to be compartmentalised into a particular philosophy.



Is it? Personally I don't think people are dipsh*ts because they want to concentrate on the more athletic and skill-based elements of a given martial art as opposed to the philosophical ones. Boxing for instance isn't accompanied by the rafts of obscure writings you allude to in your post, that doesn't make it any more or less "hollow" in my eyes.

I guess you never read Dempsey then?

Or watches how many great trainers such as Cus D'amato had his students STUDY film footage of other great fighters to LEARN THEIR TRICKS!!! wakey wakey!

I'm not suggesting one must read "Chinese myth" or otherwise to gain pugilistic skill, but I am saying that there is an art to it! Enticing a response, setting up an opponent, is not a matter of speed and strength, not at high level! How Tyson opened up an opponent with high low, diagonal combos is an art, not a recipe! It takes the ability to read an opponent to set him up, it takes martial "art"!

That's why you have a handful of greats and millions of imitators! They just don't fukin get it!

FTA69

Or watches how many great trainers such as Cus D'amato had his students STUDY film footage of other great fighters to LEARN THEIR TRICKS!!! wakey wakey!

You're being patronising again.

I'm well aware how fighters learn from other fighters that went before them; that's pretty much the essence of any sport or any combat art to be honest. Not only do you try and learn from your own trainer but also the greats who went before. That is a practical approach to your training.

It is also distinct from embracing concepts of chi, and zen and various other unquantifiable stuff. If that spiritual aspect of your training floats your boat then more power to you and yours; but it doesn't make people thuggish numbskulls because they'd rather concentrate on the practical, fighting element of it.

I'm not suggesting one must read "Chinese myth" or otherwise to gain pugilistic skill, but I am saying that there is an art to it! Enticing a response, setting up an opponent, is not a matter of speed and strength, not at high level!

It's certainly a science definitely and a skillset that takes years to master and learn; and not necessarily at a very high level either. However, the fact remains that this is learned in a practically-orientated environment where philosophy is often absent.

That's why you have a handful of greats and millions of imitators! They just don't fukin get it!

I think it's less of a case of people "not getting it" and more of a case of you being angry with those who don't share the same perspective of training as you.

Tuisceanch

Peetrik wrote: »

Of course there have been, incredibly rewarding moments, pitting yourself against an opponent in competition, going head to head and coming out on top. Not to mention all the cumulative smaller physical and mental well being benefits that accompany martial arts

BUT.....

All of these things can be experienced with running, or cycling or crossfit or whatever. These moments of clarity and benefits, while wonderful and fulfilling are not martial arts. The fighting part is martial arts.

While you may experience the rewarding benefits and moments of clarity from training your heart out and winning a kata competition... in my humble opinion, it's not martial arts.

But that's just me.

But really is this just saying that even if you train in a martial art you yourself cannot consider yourself a martial artist and having nothing to say on the matter unless you have accomplished something in competition which necessarily means only a select few. What if I enter a competition against a well trained martial artist and based on my totally evil and violent nature kick the almighty crap out of him based only on my unrelenting thuggish ability ..am I then the better martial artist?

Peetrik

Tuisceanch wrote: »

But really is this just saying that even if you train in a martial art you yourself cannot consider yourself a martial artist and having nothing to say on the matter unless you have accomplished something in competition which necessarily means only a select few.

Nope, I'm saying that focal point of your training is fighting. Spending time in the lotus position under a waterfall because you heard that's what they did in feudal times in wherever does not make you a martial artist. Nor does learning by rote the tenants of whichever style you like or the back history etc etc.

Tuisceanch wrote: »

What if I enter a competition against a well trained martial artist and based on my totally evil and violent nature kick the almighty crap out of him based only on my unrelenting thuggish ability ..am I then the better martial artist?

Yes. But only because your "well trained martial artist" claimed to be such without having learned how to fight.

Tuisceanch

Surely if the philosophy of your martial art is to confront force with force then you might take this philosophy into your everyday life. Also this attitude of viewing things as distinct and separate and not interrelated is a product of western philosophy. The world you live in and your attitudes is shaped by these philosophies. If you train in a martial art that is based on eastern philosophical thought then does this not change your attitude to the society you live in? Maybe this is of no interest to those who feel they just do what they have trained to do and experience various emotional states on the way but isn't that just because you have chosen not to and not because it isn't part of your martial art?

Tuisceanch

Peetrik wrote: »

Nope, I'm saying that focal point of your training is fighting. Spending time in the lotus position under a waterfall because you heard that's what they did in feudal times in wherever does not make you a martial artist. Nor does learning by rote the tenants of whichever style you like or the back history etc etc.

But you are describing meditation and academic study which surely nobody so far has suggested is martial arts.

Peetrik

Tuisceanch wrote: »

But you are describing meditation and academic study which surely nobody so far has suggested is martial arts.

There are numerous styles where advancement in rank or belts are dependant on a having done academic study. In some it is possible to advance solely on (what I would consider) academic study.

Tuisceanch

Yes. But only because your "well trained martial artist" claimed to be such without having learned how to fight.[/QUOTE]

My "well trained martial artist" had fought and beaten many of the top guys in his own style and other styles but unfortunately against this guy he had not reckoned on innate thuggist abilty based on no training but just regular bouts of football hooliganism with a top firm overcoming everything he had in his locker.

Peetrik

Tuisceanch wrote: »

My "well trained martial artist" had fought and beaten many of the top guys in his own style and other styles but unfortunately against this guy he had not reckoned on innate thuggist abilty based on no training but just regular bouts of football hooliganism with a top firm overcoming everything he had in his locket.

Well, I hate to tell you but raw thuggish violence is effective. Windmilling with your head down without having done a days training works. A 'well trained' Aikido guy who has never actually sparred might well beat many top Aikido guys but he's going to get smashed by a football hooligan because his training didn't incorporate learning how to fight.

So yes, in a case like that the football hooligan has better martial ability than the Aikido guy.

Niall Keane

I suppose this little tale may be relevant?

A few weeks ago I brought some Irish athletes over to the EWUF Sanda Europeans. It was their first time at an event at this level. 32 countries competed. The Irish athletes did very well for the first time out, one got a bronze. After they were finished up on the fourth day, we all sat down to watch some of the finals, as we did I pointed out some tactics that were being used. Like how the Russians tend to counter fight after drawing out an attack, or how the Turks slip into take-downs with misdirection used to bridge distance etc. and of course I pointed out specific and detailed tricks / skills. But I have a good bit of experience internationally, and I know a lot of their coaches!

One of the Irish athletes asked why they hadn't been trained and told about this, as National Coach I'm was having the finger pointed at me. I proceeded to explain how certain drills in squad training were designed to train certain abilities and the athlete concurred but basically admitted that they didn't take them seriously enough as they had never encountered that level of skill nationally.

They are better and more serious now!

Now, lately I had a conversation with my good friend Henk Vurshur, also known as “the mad dutchman”, some people here may have heard of him, mentor to Hoost, bronze medalist in Judo in Olympics etc.etc...
He works as a professor in sports strategy in a University in the Netherlands and trains many elite athletes, not just martial artists in the Dutch Olympic facility.
So this is the story, hopefully it wont dishearten people too much, to know what you are up against if you step up to international level.....

He takes the Dutch sanda team say, or sometimes an elite athlete – Oliver Hassler, Muslim Salihov etc. and they begin to work together. A TEAM of scientists analyse the opponents, i.e. check out the Russian fighters, the Turkish for example etc. etc. and devise strategies with world class professional combat sport athletes to overcome these opponents. They don't work alone, so say they decide to develop an interruption tactic, they then get the athletes to preform the moves and record them in 3D, this is analysed and sent down to other Olympic employed sport scientists to design a training regime to maximise the explosiveness in the movements and the athletes are put on a programme to develop their bodies to preform these movements with maximum power and speed. The strategists will develop tactics to misdirect etc. and feed this back to the movement scientists to make sure one set of movements does not detrimentally effect the other. So a near perfect solution is devised.
These (as there are a few game plans for different opponents who also live in countries where real money is put into sport to get these results) methods and movements are practised to perfection.

Now eventually every athlete will have his / her own way of doing things – their own style, and so over time, if they stick at it, will have their own tricks to read, expose and deal with opponents. Thanks to sports scientists working throughout Olympic sports not just martial arts, they will have tailor made training regimes.

They are conditioned into perfection, all aspects addressed, the physical, the tactics, the strategy, the whole integration of such becomes an art.

Imagine having teams of scientists and strategists working to perfect your physical and mental performance? What kind of god would you be? Its a long, long way from one, two, uniflu! Its more than just fighting. How can this type of training not have impact and value to your life? How could it not change you utterly?

Ali said the fight began on the road, not even in the gym, training to fight will take 99.99% of martial art time, no matter how much you fight, it is the training that will have the most impact! It is the training that conditions, training that for sure is of no use if not taken seriously as the Irish Athlete pointed out, so there is a lot to be said about the fight experience, it is essential, but the training will also alter your perception utterly. Enlighten you perhaps?




(Btw lads, I dont think anyone posting here is into or arguing from the mysticism or mcdojo stuff, so I don't think it is relevant or helpful to even consider it?)

FTA69

"If you're sitting here now and nodding your head thinking "yup I'm a martial artist and proud to be one" you know absolutely nothing about fighting. You think you do, but you don't. Chances are you're a fat, middle aged man who wears pajamas and runs his mouth twice a week. I'm not trying to insult you... Just trying to clarify the difference between fighters and most martial artists. For the record fighters are people who compete in real fights. Their sparring gear isn't constructed from cheap plastic a quarter of an inch thick because they actually hit each other. They do not throw punches from the hip because they realise the practicality of protecting the face. They know if the techniques shown to them really work because they test them everyday day in the gym and the ring. They've beaten the sh*t out of people and had the sh*t beaten out of them, and through such beatings have become mentally and physically tough."

Forrest Griffin

Tuisceanch

A kid plays as a right back in football and is selected for his team to compete in the U16 local league..footballer?

Same kid continues playing as he gets older and plays in the amateur leagues ..footballer?

Goes on trial for a professional club but is not deemed good enough..footballer but just not top level?

Never gets another opportunity at top level but continues playing into his mid 30's at amateur level..footballer?

Plays 5 aside with his mates..footballer?

Also no matter what you may think there is always going to be someone who will beat you and once that happens, will everybody turn around and say?.. "we always knew you were pretentious".

Niall Keane

FTA69 wrote: »

"If you're sitting here now and nodding your head thinking "yup I'm a martial artist and proud to be one" you know absolutely nothing about fighting. You think you do, but you don't. Chances are you're a fat, middle aged man who wears pajamas and runs his mouth twice a week. I'm not trying to insult you... Just trying to clarify the difference between fighters and most martial artists. For the record fighters are people who compete in real fights. Their sparring gear isn't constructed from cheap plastic a quarter of an inch thick because they actually hit each other. They do not throw punches from the hip because they realise the practicality of protecting the face. They know if the techniques shown to them really work because they test them everyday day in the gym and the ring. They've beaten the sh*t out of people and had the sh*t beaten out of them, and through such beatings have become mentally and physically tough."

Forrest Griffin

Who are you directing this at? you do realise that for example Peetrik and myself have verifiable fight records right? Tuisceanch is one of my students so I'll vouch for he understands whats real and whats "knowing absolutely nothing about fighting".
It is a bit funny, theres a few lads posting online about martial arts, none of which that I know of (so everyone bar yourself) are delusional regarding fighting.
I know "playing to the gallery" can be fun, but in a discussion it is considered that posts are addressed to those participating. No one here wears pyjamas, noone here grades, you have a Muay Thai Fighter, an ex Sanda fighter and now National Sanda Coach, and a student of his.

Just to clarify, so maybe we can drop the pyjamas, at least until a 10th Dan chimes in on the conversation?

Tuisceanch

My grandfather was a bare fist fighter from Liverpool when he worked on the ships. He might have said he was a amateur fighter but I'm pretty much sure he never said he was a 'martial artist'. So can't you be fighter without actually understanding what martial arts are?

FTA69

Niall Keane wrote: »

Who are you directing this at? you do realise that for example Peetrik and myself have verifiable fight records right? Tuisceanch is one of my students so I'll vouch for he understands whats real and whats "knowing absolutely nothing about fighting".
It is a bit funny, theres a few lads posting online about martial arts, none of which that I know of (so everyone bar yourself) are delusional regarding fighting.
I know "playing to the gallery" can be fun, but in a discussion it is considered that posts are addressed to those participating. No one here wears pyjamas, noone here grades, you have a Muay Thai Fighter, an ex Sanda fighter and now National Sanda Coach, and a student of his.

Just to clarify, so maybe we can drop the pyjamas, at least until a 10th Dan chimes in on the conversation?

Relax mate, it isn't directed at anyone in particular rather it's the perspective of a top fighter on the matter we're discussing; namely that martial arts is about fighting and what it boils down to is the act of fighting. Everything else is either superfluous to or subordinate to that basic act. Personally I don't look for philosophical guidance or spiritual enhancement from my athletic activities and I disagree with your contention that martial arts in the absence of the above is thuggishness, ignorance or stupidity.

As for me, I'm not making myself out to be a Billy Badass at all, I started boxing in my late teens and had a few bouts in the intervarsity novices as well as a couple of white collar bouts.

artengo

I googled " rules of sanda". Look at the amount of protection.
Got this :
1) Individually fitted head protector (helmet), open helmets are forbidden
2) Individually fitted tooth protector (gum shield)
3) T-shirt (sleeveless undershirt or bear-chest is prohibited)
4) Individually fitted chest protector
5) Hand bandages max 2.5 meters
6) Gloves 10 OZ in all weight categories
7) Shorts (long trousers are prohibited)
8) Individually fitted groin-protector
9) Individually fitted foot protectors (shin guard)

Is there sanda where they just wear gloves, groin guard and a gumshield

Tuisceanch

FTA69 wrote: »

Personally I don't look for philosophical guidance or spiritual enhancement from my athletic activities and I disagree with your contention that martial arts in the absence of the above is thuggishness, ignorance or stupidity.

But it's not necessarily that you are looking for some philosophical guidance or spiritual enhancement but rather that the approach of your activity influences your thinking on a sub-conscious level which you later become aware of as it manifests itself in your behaviour. For some it might be interesting to hear their reflections on the subject and for others not. There is only so much interest in asserting that unless you train to fight then it's not martial arts and once that has being established then the discussion must broaden it's horizons or die a natural death.

Niall Keane

artengo wrote: »

I googled " rules of sanda". Look at the amount of protection.
Got this :
1) Individually fitted head protector (helmet), open helmets are forbidden
2) Individually fitted tooth protector (gum shield)
3) T-shirt (sleeveless undershirt or bear-chest is prohibited)
4) Individually fitted chest protector
5) Hand bandages max 2.5 meters
6) Gloves 10 OZ in all weight categories
7) Shorts (long trousers are prohibited)
8) Individually fitted groin-protector
9) Individually fitted foot protectors (shin guard)

Is there sanda where they just wear gloves, groin guard and a gumshield

Of course!
Chest protectors and head gear are for amateur where shin pads are forbidden BTW!
Semi pro has no protection and knees are allowed
Pro has elbows as well

Just like many amateur sports protection is worn as an IOC requirwment .

Groin guards and gum shields are in every combat sport I know of ffs!

You can win by ko in all levels

The headgear is the same as boxing or MT for amateurs - I don't know what you are looking at? The standard rules are from the IOC recognised IWUF - in Europe its body is EWUF - rules are in their sites.

I can dig up rules for MMA that exclude headshots entirely! Please less of the strawman

Zen65

The Mustard wrote: »

For me, the main purpose of a martial art is to train to fight.

I don't see how someone can make an accurate claim that they can defend themselves or others in a hand to hand situation unless they are able to fight.

So at post #3 in the sequence somebody offers an opinion on the purpose of a martial art. Unsurprisingly the purpose of a martial art is described as training to fight. Can't argue there of course, that's exactly what the main purpose is.

But the thread as proposed by the OP is about the value of Martial Art Training in your life. Other ideas about function are interesting (though they have been thrashed out in this Forum ad nauseam) but the value and the function are not the same thing.

The function of a bus ticket is to allow entry onto a bus, but the value of a bus ticket to the holder might be that it allows them to drink while they are out socialising, or that it brought them home to their loved ones, or that it allowed them to travel during a rainstorm without getting wet.

It's hard to debate the function of a MA with sincerity, since we all agree it's to teach you to fight, but the value of the MA to a person is a personal experience and depends on many factors. I have at least two young students for whom the value of their MA training is that it taught them to stand up to bullies without fighting. What they trained to do, and what they were consequently able to do were pretty far removed.

artengo

Ok fair enough. It sounds like a pretty realistic combat sport then. What annoys non martial artists is when martial artists go on about fight records and sparring and then you find out they are light contact only, wearing a suit of armour or the ridicules rule set makes it completely unrealistic.
Niall did you fight full contact with just the gum shield, groin gaurd and gloves?
If so fair enough, win or lose we can't take anything away from anyone who fought full contact limited rule set ie head kicks, elbows

Tuisceanch

Zen65 wrote: »

It's hard to debate the function of a MA with sincerity, since we all agree it's to teach you to fight, but the value of the MA to a person is a personal experience and depends on many factors. I have at least two young students for whom the value of their MA training is that it taught them to stand up to bullies without fighting. What they trained to do, and what they were consequently able to do were pretty far removed.

Thanks for this interesting contribution. It's nice to hear from someone who gives something back and talks of normal life.

Niall Keane

artengo wrote: »

Ok fair enough. It sounds like a pretty realistic combat sport then. What annoys non martial artists is when martial artists go on about fight records and sparring and then you find out they are light contact only, wearing a suit of armour or the ridicules rule set makes it completely unrealistic.
Niall did you fight full contact with just the gum shield, groin gaurd and gloves?
If so fair enough, win or lose we can't take anything away from anyone who fought full contact limited rule set ie head kicks, elbows

I fought amateur before the chest protector was introduced 2002 in a bid to enter the Olympics, and pro sanda with elbows and knees, ended up ranked 4th in world in 2005 IMAF-PWKA before hanging up the gloves. 67 countries competed. Since then I've had two students ranked in the top 3 in PWKA European pro rankings, along with several others who have won amateur titles in Ireland, UK and Spain.

Sanda is always full contact. Head kicks are in all sanda amateur and pro, I don't know where you get your misinformation, the only full contact combat sport I know of that precludes strikes to the head at amateur level is MMA.

SVJKarate

Karate keeps me sane and helps me to manage the stresses of my working day.

I do also get satisfaction from passing on what knowledge I can to our students in the club, but if I could not train I would not want to teach.

Kevin Moran

Niall Keane wrote: »

I don't know where you get your misinformation, the only full contact combat sport I know of that precludes strikes to the head at amateur level is MMA.

The MMA league is probably half a step below amatuer tbh, its for mainly complete novices. Great way to get the ball rolling for a lot of guys as regards considering competing. The potential unheralded situations an MMA match can conjure means that the tight rules of the MMA league give an avenue for people training a relatively short time, some perspective of what things could be like with the added headache ( ) of strikes to the head. Amateur MMA usually just means larger gloves, elbow strikes removed and some really damaging submissions being disallowed. i.e. Heel hooks. Much more like an actual Mixed Martial Arts contest.
As regards the value of Martial Arts in life, if you enjoy doing the art, spending time thinking about the art and generally the thought of the art evokes positive feelings from within, then its worth your time. If you want to learn how to fight, or to fight to compete, then that's probably going to be a different story.
As an aside, probably just my own experiences and background, but I don't consider any martial arts that you compete in an 'alive' manner, a martial art. Just sport, with loads of layers and opportunity to learn skills to give yourself an advantage

Tuisceanch

Martial arts training when trained with a competent teacher would necessarily require you to learn to read more attentively and in minute detail the body language of your opponent. Also you would learn to develop good peripheral vision. Competing would naturally enhance these abilities as your competitive urge to win would depend on your ability in these areas. The ability to remain relaxed and stay in the moment under stressful and demanding conditions could also mean the difference between winning and losing. All these skills will impact on your normal dealings with people and your environment,hopefully in a positive way.These skills are obviously not peculiar to martial arts training but I think there is a difference between the focus of martial arts training and team sports.

MagicIRL

I meet great people. I feel physically better. I'm in much better shape. I have goals. I can compete. I can learn. It helps me with my mental health. Everyone should train a MA!

JonKelleher

Niall Keane wrote: »

Begins and ends with fighting? That's seriously shallow!

Surely even in the ring / cage / lei tai there are moments of clarity and perfection that turn an otherwise prosaic life into moments of pure poetry? Celebratory epiphanies and moments of enlightenment? Surely if you have taken the pains to achieve noticeable results in martial arts, life has been an epic saga of roller coaster experience rather than the droll day to day of wage slavery? It must have offered BIGGER insights into life?

Surely the totality of the experience means more than simply a skilful aptitude for violence? Or are you still journeymen sheep, running from the wolves, stepping into the ring to prove you can? just to overcome fear of violence or ageing etc... Are you still PUTTING that combo you practised on a dead bag into the ring or are you engaging with the opponent, with the experience?

T.S. Elliot spoke of the “objective correlative” - the ability of a poet to instil emotion in the reader through the use of style and imagery. All art is about this, from painting to architecture to martial arts... we entice a specific response in the opponent through use of rhythms, feints and draws etc. so we can capitalise on it and defeat him, truly as Sun Tzu said “the art of war is the art of deception”!

How brain dead one would have to be to suffer the necessary monotony of repeated martial arts training for it to begin and end with fighting! Really guys? I'm shocked if this is true, that one can be content to sacrifice years of life for a few fleeting minutes of experience. There has to be a deeper meaning for everyone for f sake?

Like I just cannot believe anyone to be so blind and one dimensional, in a word stupid, to blind themselves to a holistic view of what they are engaged in. I'm not talking just martial arts here either! For all the great combat sports lads I know, the martial arts experience has become a structure to view and understand so many other aspects of life. Just like religion is to others, or art and music to others? How could it be otherwise? How could you escape this? Like I know dogs have to be trained to piss outside and for some “bright sparks” this training is situational so you have to repeat the exact same dumb **** in every new house they go to, but humans are supposed to be a bit smarter than that! Affinity and synchronicity and all that...

Lads, I know its the latest craze to act all anti-intellectual and thuggish in martial arts, ridiculing anything and anyone who isn't just sparring and hitting bags, and sounding like the caricature in the uniflu add, and I know this all stemmed from the backlash against unrealistic martial arts practices, but the pendulum has seriously swung too far in the other direction now, if this hollow view of martial arts or even combat sports is prevailing, it just makes average martial artists look dumb!

And when I look at the greats I see art, saenchai's draws, misdirection and double timings come straight out of Musashi's pages though he may never have read them for all I know, the Gracies writings I've seen could be written by Wang Tsung Yeuh or Chaing Nai Zhou, they are so similar, the professionalism and science that goes into training elite sanda athletes I've personally witnessed, where experiments on inducing reactions and trigger responses are carried out costing millions by many a national Olympic organisation, knowledge shared amongst all athletes not just martial artists, hell the best are the best BECAUSE their martial arts extends far beyond “just fighting” !

edit: Actually I refuse to believe anyone is that dumb, perhaps they are reacting against past experience with mac dojo MAs in wishing to express distance between anything other than fighting in their training, fair enough, but that debate is over for 20 years. The question being asked now is how training (and be polite and treat it as training that is every bit as tough as your own! and that we have all been around for the last 20 years, and some of us allways had resistance in training, and heavy sparing and even scores of intertnational full contact experience) has this impacted on your day to day life by adding value to it? Or are you asleep? (if sleeping, maybe post a selfie here with your other pals: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055298886 )

Absolutely love your passion. Inspiring.