Sick Pay Policy

LegacyUser

I have just received new contract from company I am joining.

The sick pay policy is

'The company will not make any payment for any day that you do attend work. You may be entitled to claim social welfare benefit from the Department of Social Protection'.

So basically they want 100% commitment from me but If i get break my leg/get sick/etc. they couldn't give a hoot.

I know this is common place with agency workers but this is a full time perm job.

Is this normal?

I'd like to query this with the Manager but not sure how to go about it? Thoughts/Opinions? I don't want to come across as a guy who is concerned about sick pay and is planning to take a load of sick days, but at the same stage I am annoyed at this. Should this not have being mentioned to me? Christ Tesco's will pay ya if your out sick.

Would it be fair to say I am working on an hourly basis now really? This is certainly not how job was sold to me.

Help!

Eoin

Is this normal?

This is definitely common, and quite understandable too, IMO.

It seems pretty clearly laid out, so I'm not sure what there is to query with the manager.

No Pants

I've never worked anywhere that didn't pay sick pay and I'm not sure that I'd want to unless the hourly rate was significantly higher to compensate for it. I haven't had a sick day in at least seven years, but I'm only human and even machines break down.

TimeToShine

A lot of places don't pay for sick days, and if they do it's at most 5 days a year. You can ask and see if you can use your annual leave in lieu of losing payment but other than that there's not much else to be done. I don't think it's worth kicking up a fuss this early over what is probably going to be 2-3 days of pay a year.

Is this a professional job? In that case it is mildly surprising but not uncommon.

Chattastrophe!

I'd say it's quite common.

Of course, perhaps in practice they do pay on a discretionary basis, but just have that in the policy to cover themselves.

It's certainly not something I'd make a fuss about when starting in a new job!

Hello Lady!

The reality is that more places don't give sick pay than those that do. There isno legal obligation to pay sick leave so most companies don't. In fact a lot of places that used to pay have changed their policies. And I thinl you'll find that tesco don't pay sick pay, and I would guess close to zero retail employers pay it.

tenifan

Op, it really depends on your basic salary. If it's a decent salary, you should put money into a rainy day fund that should cover the odd sick day. You might also consider taking out an income protection policy to cover longer term illnesses.
Also, what's your annual leave like? If it's 25 days, well that's equivalent to 20 days statutory annual leave, and another 5 days you could essentially use as sick days.

If your basic salary isn't great, you could ask them to bump it up a bit, pointing out that while the basic pay offered is in line with other jobs, the benefits aren't as good.

Mrs OBumble

Feel free to get another job with better T&Cs.

Y2KBOS86

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Feel free to get another job with better T&Cs.

Someone red card this, not helpful advice.

pablo128

Tesco's warehouse used to pay sick pay up to 12 weeks per year. The workers used to take exactly 12 weeks off sick. At the same time of year, usually the summer. Every year.
I know this, as I sat in on a meeting between management, staff, and the union. The staff and union didn't dispute this.

As with everything, some people take a good thing, take the complete piss out of it, and ruin it for everyone else.

Larry Wildman

Y2KBOS86 wrote: »

Someone red card this, not helpful advice.

Why is it not helpful advice?

Too many people only look at the salary when they're assessing a prospective job.

Ancillary stuff like this should also be factored in.

tenifan

Y2KBOS86 wrote: »

Someone red card this, not helpful advice.

I disagree. It's fairly sound advice. If the op wrote "I got offered a job but I'm not happy with the salary" people will most likely say "well, don't take it!"

pablo128 wrote: »

As with everything, some people take a good thing, take the complete piss out of it, and ruin it for everyone else.

Once again, I disagree. If a company is offering generous sick leave, it would be sad to see the most unhealthy people benefiting from it, when some one fitter and more active is expected to show up every single day with no extra thanks.

I worked in a company that actually rewarded staff with a bonus day of annual leave if they didn't take a sickie in a quarter. up to 4 days a year.

Arthur Beesley

Y2KBOS86 wrote: »

Someone red card this, not helpful advice.

Nor is back seat modding.

Tar.Aldarion

You need to look at this when applying, as well as salary and other benefits, it would be important to me, haven't worked anywhere without it.

smcgiff

Companies only have to pay you for time you work. Imagine if you were an employer - would you fancy paying people taking sick leave.

And, yes set days paid sick leave is abused, especially in the P... actual Let's not go there.

LegacyUser

I appreciate all the views - I can see there is a disagreement here among posters.

It is a professional job with large company - I can't really give any more details.

I did check out the benefits and salary - I didn't even think to ask about sick pay - naively I suppose I just presumed there was sick pay for perm employee - I've never heard of there not being sick pay (again maybe I was being naive here).

I am not getting above industry rate yet I feel like contractor now but without extra pay - in fact I suppose I feel like hourly paid employee now really and I don't feel like I will be there too long and I don't feel secure.

This is just my opinion and I see already how people will disagree with me but I can't see how company expects to me commit psychologically to this job - I could bust my ass for 2 years, have an accident one night and basically the company couldn't care less nor will they pay me. Lets say I am in the middle of a project and I go out sick suddenly - I know they will want me to ring in and give updates (which I normally would) but I'd find it a bit strange ringing in giving updates and the company won't even pay for my sick leave. I could be out sick and they'd want me to ring in with updates yet they don't even pay.

I find it a joke they want medical certificate yet it ain't like yee are paying me lads.

Again I know people will differ too me but that is the way I look at it and that is how I feel about it.

Also lets not get into people riding sick leave - I am not one of those and I am not looking for a free ride.

LegacyUser

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

I'd say it's quite common.

Of course, perhaps in practice they do pay on a discretionary basis, but just have that in the policy to cover themselves.

It's certainly not something I'd make a fuss about when starting in a new job!

Oh I defo won't be making a fuss about it - no point - it is what it is and I'll just have to put up with it.

However I am already looking for new job due to this and not feeling positive about it - I did 3 interviews with them so I presume they are keen. No matter what happens I'll kinda always have this ticking away in the back of my mind.

tayto lover

We need a new James Larkin.
Workers conditions are being eroded on a whim now because jobs are short. Many employers taking advantage.

tenifan

tayto lover wrote: »

We need a new James Larkin.
Workers conditions are being eroded on a whim now because jobs are short. Many employers taking advantage.

That's an argument for another thread. You don't know what the op's earning so you can't say the employer is taking advantage.

beanie10

If you break your leg or get sick op that's your tough sh1t! What annoys me is that people think it's there God given right to expect their employer to fund sick days. Bear in mind your employer is already suffering as a result of your non-attendance.
In my experience sick leave is abused especially in public sector. it's seen as a target and not a limit.
Is anybody grateful anymore to be employed. Maybe a few months on the dole will change your attitude.

beanie10

tenifan wrote: »

I disagree. It's fairly sound advice. If the op wrote "I got offered a job but I'm not happy with the salary" people will most likely say "well, don't take it!"



Once again, I disagree. If a company is offering generous sick leave, it would be sad to see the most unhealthy people benefiting from it, when some one fitter and more active is expected to show up every single day with no extra thanks.

I worked in a company that actually rewarded staff with a bonus day of annual leave if they didn't take a sickie in a quarter. up to 4 days a year.

This is an absolute disgraceful attitude. I guarantee if you became self employed tomorrow with 20 employees your attitude towards would change very quickly.

tenifan

beanie10 wrote: »

This is an absolute disgraceful attitude. I guarantee if you became self employed tomorrow with 20 employees your attitude towards would change very quickly.

it's not a disgraceful attitude. (and apologies for dragging the op's thread slightly OT)

At the moment I have 20 days annual leave, and 5 sick days. My job can be a little bit stressful at times, so I like to treat myself to an impromptu sick day once every 2 months. I don't take sick days when work's busy and I get all my work done.

In comparison, a woman I work with gets 27 days annual leave, a sick leave entitlement of several months (reduced pay after a certain amount I believe) and has already taken about 20 so far this year at times inconvenient to other team members. Her health problems are self inflicted as a result of obesity and smoking.

According to you, I'm the one abusing the system.

But my point of view: I'm a "knowledge worker" in a salaried position. I'm not a drone or a piece of equipment rented at an hourly rate. Why would you begrudge me a few days off that costs the company very little and gives me a degree of flexibility and increased satisfaction in my job?

I would gladly forgo paid sick leave in exchange for an additional annual leave entitlement, or perhaps a higher basic wage. It's up to my employer to put in place a pay and benefits package that is acceptable to me to stop me from looking for a better package elsewhere.

Larry Wildman

tenifan wrote: »

At the moment I have 20 days annual leave, and 5 sick days. My job can be a little bit stressful at times, so I like to treat myself to an impromptu sick day once every 2 months

That's what your annual leave is for. Your behaviour is disgraceful and in my view you should be fired for it. The bottom line is that you're being dishonest and untrustworthy. Pretending that you're sick and skiving off is lying - It's dishonest and morally wrong.

Eoin

sickpay policy wrote: »

Lets say I am in the middle of a project and I go out sick suddenly - I know they will want me to ring in and give updates (which I normally would) but I'd find it a bit strange ringing in giving updates and the company won't even pay for my sick leave. I could be out sick and they'd want me to ring in with updates yet they don't even pay.

They need to plan around your absence, so it makes sense they'd expect you to ring in with updates.

Mrs OBumble

tayto lover wrote: »

We need a new James Larkin.
Workers conditions are being eroded on a whim now because jobs are short. Many employers taking advantage.

I have a counter example: I went to work on-site for a large multi-national, through an agency, in 2007. At that time, the policy was no paid sick leave. Went back to the same gig, on the same salary, in 2011, and the only policy change was a few days paid sick leave entitlement. I think the difference was EU policy, rather than any union leadership.


I apologise if my earlier post was a little terse: one of the hazards of posting from the phone. But I totally stand by the comment. Labour economics is very simple. There is demand and supply, and the overall compensation is based what is required in order to get workers to supply their labour. If you don't like what's on offer, you simply need to get another job, negotiate, or put up with it. If a company has explicitly said that their policy is no paid sick leave, then it's very unlikely that they will negotiate on this, so the choice is simple, if unpalatable.

Something to keep in mind is the difference between sick leave (ie permission to not attend work without prior agreement, due to your being sick) and paid sick leave. There is no legal requirement in Ireland to offer either. But most employers do offer the first, and some - mainly public sector - offer the second too. And the majority of people are eligible for welfare after the first six days of being off due to sickness. (Used to be three days, was increased a budget or two ago.)

Fundamentally, an employment contract is an agreement to exchange labour (or labour+knowledge-and-skill) for cash. If you become unable to meet your side of the deal, it's not really fair that the employer should have to meet theirs.

LegacyUser

Eoin wrote: »

They need to plan around your absence, so it makes sense they'd expect you to ring in with updates.

Not a chance Eoin - they can kiss my ass now. I do respect and acknowledge what your saying but I feel very different about it. We all have expectations I suppose - I expect company to pay sick leave but there you go I suppose.

I'll make it quite clear they are not to ring me whilst on sick leave (if ever on sick leave). Not a chance they are ringing me whilst off sick and they are not even paying me.

This for me is more to do with the psychology of the situation really - anytime I've being out sick with a previous company I'd always drop them an email with updates,things that need to be done,etc. even when not needed/ expected. I feel very different about this situation. I am rarely sick but I feel this is just going to be indicative of the way they treat employees.

I kind of thought this was only for contractors/agency workers but obviously looking at responses here I understand I am wrong.

Thanks for all responses folks!

professore

tayto lover wrote: »

We need a new James Larkin.
Workers conditions are being eroded on a whim now because jobs are short. Many employers taking advantage.

That's what unions / labour party are supposed to be for. Neither are any good if you're not in the public sector.

professore

sickpay policy wrote: »

Oh I defo won't be making a fuss about it - no point - it is what it is and I'll just have to put up with it.

However I am already looking for new job due to this and not feeling positive about it - I did 3 interviews with them so I presume they are keen. No matter what happens I'll kinda always have this ticking away in the back of my mind.

That's the answer ... Get another job where you are happy with the Ts & Cs.

LegacyUser

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I have a counter example: I went to work on-site for a large multi-national, through an agency, in 2007. At that time, the policy was no paid sick leave. Went back to the same gig, on the same salary, in 2011, and the only policy change was a few days paid sick leave entitlement. I think the difference was EU policy, rather than any union leadership.


I apologise if my earlier post was a little terse: one of the hazards of posting from the phone. But I totally stand by the comment. Labour economics is very simple. There is demand and supply, and the overall compensation is based what is required in order to get workers to supply their labour. If you don't like what's on offer, you simply need to get another job, negotiate, or put up with it. If a company has explicitly said that their policy is no paid sick leave, then it's very unlikely that they will negotiate on this, so the choice is simple, if unpalatable.

Something to keep in mind is the difference between sick leave (ie permission to not attend work without prior agreement, due to your being sick) and paid sick leave. There is no legal requirement in Ireland to offer either. But most employers do offer the first, and some - mainly public sector - offer the second too. And the majority of people are eligible for welfare after the first six days of being off due to sickness. (Used to be three days, was increased a budget or two ago.)

Fundamentally, an employment contract is an agreement to exchange labour (or labour+knowledge-and-skill) for cash. If you become unable to meet your side of the deal, it's not really fair that the employer should have to meet theirs.

I accept your apology I don't really disagree with anything you are saying there at all, but you are looking at things in a very cold,legal light shall we say.

I am kind of referring to the psychological contract shall we say - I am not exactly going to be telling people 'Oh yeah I've a fantastic employer who treats me well'.

Just reading a bit about their core values and how much they care about people - I sniggered when I read this.

Rightly or wrongly I don't feel this is fair and it will be there in the back of my mind. Am I going to give the company 120% like I would normally do? Honestly no as I mentioned before if I've an accident they will not help me in any way, shape or form - again I get that is their right and off with them. I am not busting my ass for any company that operates this way - again tis just the psychology of the thing as I am pretty sure I won't even call in sick in the next year!!

Jasus I was entitled to sick pay in Tesco's stacking shelves at 16!

Either way I'll just have to suck it up and get on with it, but I don't think they'll ever have my full commitment if that makes sense - I'll do my job well of course but they'll never have me fully if that makes any sense to people. Sure already I am looking at ways out/looking at job website/planning to stay 6 months. I already was a bit disappointed with salary and lack of benefits and this was the final straw!

LegacyUser

professore wrote: »

That's the answer ... Get another job where you are happy with the Ts & Cs.

I know but I'd rather be bouncing into my new job and looking at it long term. I am thinking now 'What else is there lads' 'Anything else I might not be aware of'. I am thinking negatively about new employer which is not nice!

I've learned my lesson though!

pablo128

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Fundamentally, an employment contract is an agreement to exchange labour (or labour+knowledge-and-skill) for cash. If you become unable to meet your side of the deal, it's not really fair that the employer should have to meet theirs.

I posted earlier about being in a meeting in Tesco warehouse between management, workers and union. The above paragraph was basically what Tesco were telling their workers.

tenifan

Larry Wildman wrote: »

That's what your annual leave is for. Your behaviour is disgraceful and in my view you should be fired for it. The bottom line is that you're being dishonest and untrustworthy. Pretending that you're sick and skiving off is lying - It's dishonest and morally wrong.

Not at all. They don't pay me a pension and if I had a long-term illness, well they wouldn't pay it either. So both of us are reasonable happy with the current terms.

If I didn't take the odd sickie, it might add to my stress levels. And ya know, sometimes I don't sleep very well because of work, so when things quiet down a bit I take a sick day. It compensates me for stress.. so my sick days taken are due to stress. So what if my self-prescribed treatment is to have lie in and go for a coffee and a scone?

Larry Wildman

tenifan wrote: »

Not at all. They don't pay me a pension and if I had a long-term illness, well they wouldn't pay it either. So both of us are reasonable happy with the current terms.

If I didn't take the odd sickie, it might add to my stress levels. And ya know, sometimes I don't sleep very well because of work, so when things quiet down a bit I take a sick day. It compensates me for stress.. so my sick days taken are due to stress. So what if my self-prescribed treatment is to have lie in and go for a coffee and a scone?

It was a good windup while it lasted.

Now I know you're kidding.

pablo128

tenifan wrote: »

Not at all. They don't pay me a pension and if I had a long-term illness, well they wouldn't pay it either. So both of us are reasonable happy with the current terms.

If I didn't take the odd sickie, it might add to my stress levels. And ya know, sometimes I don't sleep very well because of work, so when things quiet down a bit I take a sick day. It compensates me for stress.. so my sick days taken are due to stress. So what if my self-prescribed treatment is to have lie in and go for a coffee and a scone?

Well consider this. So you take your 5 'sick' days off, and put your feet up eating scones. After they are used up, and your 'stress' levels return to normal, what happens if you get a bad dose of something that lays you up for a few days.

Now that's what called poetic justice. Hopefully it never happens to you.:rolleyes:

Tar.Aldarion

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Fundamentally, an employment contract is an agreement to exchange labour (or labour+knowledge-and-skill) for cash. If you become unable to meet your side of the deal, it's not really fair that the employer should have to meet theirs.

Indeed, I plan to bring up maternity leave with management immediately.

tenifan

pablo128 wrote: »

Well consider this. So you take your 5 'sick' days off, and put your feet up eating scones. After they are used up, and your 'stress' levels return to normal, what happens if you get a bad dose of something that lays you up for a few days.

Now that's what called poetic justice. Hopefully it never happens to you.:rolleyes:

I'd rather use my sick days than hoard them in the off chance I got sick.

davo10

OP, as an employer I can tell you I do not pay sick leave, it's not legally required and the nature of my business means I have to employ a replacement so why should I have to pay two people at the same time?

The second reason could not be better illustrated than by this poster, if an employee is paid the same whether at work or not, the temptation is there to not be at work.

tenifan wrote: »

If I didn't take the odd sickie............so when things quiet down a bit I take a sick day. It compensates me for stress.. so my sick days taken are due to stress. So what if my self-prescribed treatment is to have lie in and go for a coffee and a scone?

The reality is that it is very unusual for employers to pay sick leave and if it is a requirement for you to take a job, then you may be searching a very long time. Don't forget to ask that question at interview, if you are in a hurry to leave, it is a great way of drawing the interview to an end.

greendom

Sick days, if paid should be just that. Employers should demand a doctor's cert for an employee to qualify for sick leave. That would stop the situation mentioned at Tesco.

Qualitymark

It's a buyer's market at the moment, and firms are getting what they can out of it. If the job is one you want, take it. And then keep an eye out for the same work in a firm that has better working conditions.
You might also consider taking out one of those private insurances against illness that puts you out of work. Saved a friend's bacon when his health collapsed.
When the economy starts to improve, conditions for working people will improve - people will be able to move jobs more easily, and companies will start to get sense about making a workplace a good place to work.
(Have you noticed that job ads now often don't have salary quoted, whereas in the seller's market of a few years ago nice salary and terms & conditions were dangled temptingly in every ad?)

The J Stands for Jay

I've worked for companies that have paid sick pay and i've worked for companies that don't. Buy i've never worked for a company that gave a set number of sick days. It sounds like additional holidays. No wonder it gets abused.

LegacyUser

davo10 wrote: »

OP, as an employer I can tell you I do not pay sick leave, it's not legally required and the nature of my business means I have to employ a replacement so why should I have to pay two people at the same time?

The second reason could not be better illustrated than by this poster, if an employee is paid the same whether at work or not, the temptation is there to not be at work.



The reality is that it is very unusual for employers to pay sick leave and if it is a requirement for you to take a job, then you may be searching a very long time. Don't forget to ask that question at interview, if you are in a hurry to leave, it is a great way of drawing the interview to an end.

In my experience I've only ever being paid for sick leave, I've never of not being paid for sick leave and all my friends would be getting paid for sick. I've only ever worked for large companies. I don't think I will be searching a long time as I know most decent companies do pay sick leave - I can understand how a small business might find it difficult/impossible.

As i said earlier tis more to do with the psychology of the situation - I know they are looking at me long term - I certainly don't feel that way and will leave at the drop of a hat. They can shag off trying to ring me if I am ever out sick - in all likelihood if I am out sick I am interviewing elsewhere. I don't like having this attitude/feeling but that's life.

I've learnt my lesson and I'll take it on the chin.

Qualitymark

McGaggs wrote: »

I've worked for companies that have paid sick pay and i've worked for companies that don't. Buy i've never worked for a company that gave a set number of sick days. It sounds like additional holidays. No wonder it gets abused.

Almost all the companies I've worked for gave set numbers of sick days. They weren't abused. People were professional; they knew they were covered if they got the usual annual flu or two, but didn't go sick unless they were sick.

LegacyUser

Qualitymark wrote: »

It's a buyer's market at the moment, and firms are getting what they can out of it. If the job is one you want, take it. And then keep an eye out for the same work in a firm that has better working conditions.
You might also consider taking out one of those private insurances against illness that puts you out of work. Saved a friend's bacon when his health collapsed.
When the economy starts to improve, conditions for working people will improve - people will be able to move jobs more easily, and companies will start to get sense about making a workplace a good place to work.
(Have you noticed that job ads now often don't have salary quoted, whereas in the seller's market of a few years ago nice salary and terms & conditions were dangled temptingly in every ad?)

Yeah that is exactly the way I am going to have to look at it - just a bit hurt and upset about it but that's the way it goes these days.

LegacyUser

Qualitymark wrote: »

Almost all the companies I've worked for gave set numbers of sick days. They weren't abused. People were professional; they knew they were covered if they got the usual annual flu or two, but didn't go sick unless they were sick.

Thanks!

That is the set up I have being used too - not being sick in years but always knew twas there and the company was somewhat looking out for me.

TimeToShine

pablo128 wrote: »

I posted earlier about being in a meeting in Tesco warehouse between management, workers and union. The above paragraph was basically what Tesco were telling their workers.

Where were these lads getting doctors notes for 12 weeks worth of illness?

No Pants

pablo128 wrote: »

Well consider this. So you take your 5 'sick' days off, and put your feet up eating scones. After they are used up, and your 'stress' levels return to normal, what happens if you get a bad dose of something that lays you up for a few days.

A dodgy scone?

pablo128

TimeToShine wrote: »

Where were these lads getting doctors notes for 12 weeks worth of illness?

A doctor will write a note for whatever you want in exchange for 50 euro. You would be naive to think otherwise.

pablo128

No Pants wrote: »

A dodgy scone?

Wouldn't that be ironic?:pac:

martingriff

I think that companies are seeing people take time of on there sick days as if it an add on to there annual leave. They also see that some doctors just write sick notes so they see what is the best way to stop this is to have in the T&C no statuary sick entitlement however I would say the companies for someone who lets say breaks there leg etc would see this as a reason for being out so while they might not pay you full wage might pay a reduced rate

Qualitymark

martingriff wrote: »

I think that companies are seeing people take time of on there sick days as if it an add on to there annual leave. They also see that some doctors just write sick notes so they see what is the best way to stop this is to have in the T&C no statuary sick entitlement however I would say the companies for someone who lets say breaks there leg etc would see this as a reason for being out so while they might not pay you full wage might pay a reduced rate

Surely the best thing is to hire professional people and arrange proper pay and conditions and respect on both side? Then no one is going to take advantage.

Mrs OBumble

sickpay policy wrote: »

...but you are looking at things in a very cold,legal light shall we say.

...

Rightly or wrongly I don't feel this is fair and it will be there in the back of my mind. Am I going to give the company 120% like I would normally do? Honestly no as I mentioned before if I've an accident they will not help me in any way, shape or form - again I get that is their right and off with them. I am not busting my ass for any company that operates this way - again tis just the psychology of the thing as I am pretty sure I won't even call in sick in the next year!!

Jasus I was entitled to sick pay in Tesco's stacking shelves at 16!

Either way I'll just have to suck it up and get on with it, but I don't think they'll ever have my full commitment if that makes sense - I'll do my job well of course but they'll never have me fully if that makes any sense to people.

I actually find employment law here a bit harsh: IMHO employers should legally have to pay the first few days until the Illness Benefit kicks in.

And TBH, since I've been in Ireland I've only ever given 100% of what is being paid for. There are a few factors at work here, but the relatively hard-ass edge of Irish labour law is definitely one of the. (mmm .. except one six month job in the non-profit sector which got a lot more out of me than they were paying for, due to a lack of other jobs at the time.)



Sometimes I do play up the cold legal line here, because it helps people to understand what employers may be thinking about If everyone's all warm and fuzzy and agreeing with your, then it might make you feel justified, but won't help you focus your mind about the realities of the situation.

Good luck with the job hunting: if you can find someone else quickly, then one option is to leave within only a few weeks, and not to even mention the job on your CV in future.