Understanding P&D training plan

lbucko

Hi,
I've started following one of the P&D marathon plans but I'm a little unsure how to run some of the sessions.
1. General aerobic + speed 8m with 10x100m strides => when should the strides be done during the 8m or at the end? Does it matter?
2. General aerobic 10m => should warmup/cool down mile be done on top of the 10m? I assume warmup should be included in the 10m and likewise for any long runs(16m+)?

Pretty basic questions but I'd just like to make sure I'm interpreting it correctly
Thanks.

blockic

lbucko wrote: »

Hi,
I've started following one of the P&D marathon plans but I'm a little unsure how to run some of the sessions.
1. General aerobic + speed 8m with 10x100m strides => when should the strides be done during the 8m or at the end? Does it matter?
2. General aerobic 10m => should warmup/cool down mile be done on top of the 10m? I assume warmup should be included in the 10m and likewise for any long runs(16m+)?

Pretty basic questions but I'd just like to make sure I'm interpreting it correctly
Thanks.

Generally the strides would be done at the end of the run so coming up on 7 miles or so, start the strides and that should result in you finishing out the 8 once the strides are done.

On point 2, general aerobic is easy running, a pace you are comfortable with, therefore I would see no need for the warm up/ cool down miles, if you want you could do the first and last mile a little slower but I would keep the 10 miles are the same rough pace.

lbucko

Thanks blockic.

ger664

General Aerobic should be faster the your easy/long run pace and slower then marathon pace.
Not sure on the strides, I have done them during the run starting starting from mile 2. Some more expert P&D head might know if there is a difference/benefit in doing them afterwards or not. The more important thing would be to do them correctly and concentrate on running form during the stride.

ooter

doing the p+d up to 55 mile plan and did 10 x 100m strides for the first time last tuesday, jesus me legs were like jelly afterwards.
i did them around the 5 mile point but that's only because it takes me that long to get to the area i normally do my intervals at.

menoscemo

ooter wrote: »

doing the p+d up to 55 mile plan and did 10 x 100m strides for the first time last tuesday, jesus me legs were like jelly afterwards.
i did them around the 5 mile point but that's only because it takes me that long to get to the area i normally do my intervals at.

That shouldn't be happening. Strides are not an interval session, rather part of an easy run. You shouldn't be doing them flat out, just loosening the legs.

Notice what the top runners do before a race? Those are strides.

ooter

menoscemo wrote: »

That shouldn't be happening. Strides are not an interval session, rather part of an easy run. You shouldn't be doing them flat out, just loosening the legs.

Notice what the top runners do before a race? Those are strides.

OK,thanks.
It says in the book to accelerate up to full speed in the first 70 metres and then float for the last 30,that's what I was doing.

menoscemo

ooter wrote: »

OK,thanks.
It says in the book to accelerate up to full speed in the first 70 metres and then float for the last 30,that's what I was doing.

Yes, but if I recall correctly (don't have book in front of me) it also says that 'full speed' is about our 3k race pace.

ooter

I have the 2nd edition,no mention of 3k race pace in that,just "accelerate up to full speed."
Hopefully you're right cos I'd be worried about picking up an injury going at proper full speed.

menoscemo

ooter wrote: »

I have the 2nd edition,no mention of 3k race pace in that,just "accelerate up to full speed."
Hopefully you're right cos I'd be worried about picking up an injury going at proper full speed.

http://strengthrunning.com/2012/10/what-are-strides/

http://www.runnersworld.com/workouts/add-strides-your-next-run

ooter

Thanks.

Clearlier

I wrote a response that I think might merit a wider discussion so I've started a new thread here

JohnnyCrash

ooter wrote: »

doing the p+d up to 55 mile plan and did 10 x 100m strides for the first time last tuesday, jesus me legs were like jelly afterwards.
i did them around the 5 mile point but that's only because it takes me that long to get to the area i normally do my intervals at.

Are you a week too earlyI started doing the 18/55 plan also and by my reckoning im only doing the 8 w/10x100 today-week 2?

ooter

JohnnyCrash wrote: »

Are you a week too earlyI started doing the 18/55 plan also and by my reckoning im only doing the 8 w/10x100 today-week 2?

Well spotted johnny.
Yeah I started a week early cos I'm doing the clontarf half this Saturday,going to do the 10 mile general aerobic this evening and then take it handy till the HM.I'll pick it back up again next Wednesday..

lbucko

I did my first set on the plan today. No problems but interesting discussion on Clearier's thread mentioned above. It may possibly add a bit to my confusion but some interesting points raised.

purceninho

ger664 wrote: »

General Aerobic should be faster the your easy/long run pace and slower then marathon pace.

Checked the book for this one and that is the wrong way round.
general aerobic (15 - 25 per cent off MP) should be slower than a P&D long run (10 to 20 percent off MP).

On the strides. I do them as 25 seconds on, 1 min 35 seconds recovery. Pfitzinger was on marathon talk over the winter. He stated strides should be at 800m to mile pace. I'd err toward mile pace.
What purpose to they serve? I don't have the knowledge of systems spoken of on the other thread but I've been using P&D plans for maybe 8/9 marathons over 5 years. This will sound strange but I find they freshen the legs. Saturday strides and Sunday long run is a formula I've found to work well.

Now If I could just slow down the recovery during the intervals

ger664

purceninho wrote: »

Checked the book for this one and that is the wrong way round.
general aerobic (15 - 25 per cent off MP) should be slower than a P&D long run (10 to 20 percent off MP).

If you look at table 7.1 in the book the upper intensity of a GA Run will also be quicker then the lower end intensity of a marathon Pace run. And the lower end intensity of a GA run is in the recovery run intensity range. The intensity range of these runs is such that it nearly covers the full Aerobic range from Recovery to Marathon Pace.
This is not very clear or helpful to the reader as I mistakenly took it to mean a pace that fell between Long and Marathon pace.
He does however state that these runs should not be ran too hard as they may compromise the following days session. In the schedules some of these runs are followed by Rest/CT days so maybe these can be ran at the higher end of the scale. On runs that have harder sessions the day after as you correctly pointed out could be run between Recovery and Long run Pace.

purceninho

The intensity of these workouts is something I've been thinking about lots lately. I tend towards the higher end of the intensity range for each type of run. So I effectively have a range of 5 BPM that I try to hit for each of recovery(140-145) ga (150-155), long run(155-160), etc for mp and lactate threshold runs. Those are based off my max hr.

This approach has got me results over the years but recently I've been wondering if I'm flogging myself in training especially as I intend to increase the mileage a fair bit for Dublin marathon this year. Should I dial it back a little in easier days and save something for the tough sessions? Any advise appreciated and would be interested to find out other people's interpretations

SWL

purceninho wrote: »

The intensity of these workouts is something I've been thinking about lots lately. I tend towards the higher end of the intensity range for each type of run. So I effectively have a range of 5 BPM that I try to hit for each of recovery(140-145) ga (150-155), long run(155-160), etc for mp and lactate threshold runs. Those are based off my max hr.

This approach has got me results over the years but recently I've been wondering if I'm flogging myself in training especially as I intend to increase the mileage a fair bit for Dublin marathon this year. Should I dial it back a little in easier days and save something for the tough sessions? Any advise appreciated and would be interested to find out other people's interpretations

What is your MaxHR - to me (I am no expert) you are running a little fast, I used to run in the 150s for aerobic runs and always under performed even by my standards, at xmas I bought a new HR got tested and began running in the mid 140s my tester said to keep all aerobic runs under 156bpm I always felt that was too high, since xmas I have made some limited progress (ran a 10k pb) my recovery is much better especially after and during intervals, my overall running volume has increased as has my interval reps, hopefully it will pay off, however over the last three weeks I have reduced aerobic runs to 139bpm or less too early to say if that will work but running has become very enjoyable again, and I have lost a bit fat. that my story hopefully it helps.

purceninho

SWL wrote: »

What is your MaxHR - to me (I am no expert) you are running a little fast.

My max is 194, recorded in lab test last year. Don't think I could go down the low 140s for aerobic run. I'd be driven demented wanting to speed up. The higher intensities have worked over the years but I generally average 50-60 miles a week for marathon training. Going to up it to 65-75 from August, so guess I'm also wondering do people knock back intensity as volume increases ?

viperlogic

Below is from the P&D 2nd edition book. The ranges are quite wide so I just go for the middle. Is that the right thing to do thou?

Type|HR %|avg
Long/Medium-long|74-84|79
Marathon pace|79-88|83
General Aerobic|70-81|75
Recovery|<76|
Lactate threshold|82-91|86
VO2max (5K)|93-95|94

SWL

purceninho wrote: »

My max is 194, recorded in lab test last year. Don't think I could go down the low 140s for aerobic run. I'd be driven demented wanting to speed up. The higher intensities have worked over the years but I generally average 50-60 miles a week for marathon training. Going to up it to 65-75 from August, so guess I'm also wondering do people knock back intensity as volume increases ?

Maybe your HR zones are OK, initially you will find running slower tough, but I have slowed right down to an average of 9.00-9.30/mile, I have never run so slow this at a HR of approx. 140, at the start my legs were sore and very very heavy but this is getting better on the plus side I find it easier to increase volume.

The big question I have is what formula to use when calculating the HR zones, 75% of maxHR for me is 140bpm using heart rate reserve this is 151bpm a big difference. I tend to train a few days very slow and some days a little closer to my aerobic max going by feel and HR, best way to mix it up.

I think if you increase the volume correctly intensity is not so tough on the body, that is my experince

SWL

viperlogic wrote: »

Below is from the P&D 2nd edition book. The ranges are quite wide so I just go for the middle. Is that the right thing to do thou?

Type|HR %|avg
Long/Medium-long|74-84|79
Marathon pace|79-88|83
General Aerobic|70-81|75
Recovery|<76|
Lactate threshold|82-91|86
VO2max (5K)|93-95|94

What method did you use to calculate the zones?

viperlogic

SWL wrote: »

The big question I have is what formula to use when calculating the HR zones, 75% of maxHR for me is 140bpm using heart rate reserve this is 151bpm a big difference.

I don't have the book beside me but I'm 99% sure he has HR reserve in the table also.

lbucko

viperlogic wrote: »

I don't have the book beside me but I'm 99% sure he has HR reserve in the table also.

Not able to copy it from kindle app for some reason but it's in table 1.2 in chapter 1.

viperlogic

Found a table online, will verify it when get home to check the book

Type|max HR %|HRR %
Long/Medium-long|74-84|65-78
Marathon pace|79-88|73-84
General Aerobic|70-81|62-75
Recovery|<76|<70
Lactate threshold|82-91|77-88
VO2max (5K)|93-95|91-94

lbucko

viperlogic wrote: »

Found a table online, will verify it when get home to check the book

Type|max HR %|HRR %
Long/Medium-long|74-84|65-78
Marathon pace|79-88|73-84
General Aerobic|70-81|62-75
Recovery|<76|<70
Lactate threshold|82-91|77-88
VO2max (5K)|93-95|???

That's it. VO2max HRR is 91-94

wobblemouth

Pete Pfitzinger did a great interview with Marathon Talk podcast a while back, and explained a lot of the thinking behind the schedules, pacing, etc. Check it out before your 8 weeks into your schedule!

ooter

What's the situation with the tune up races,the plan I'm following has tune up races pencilled in for 6 and 4 weeks out from the marathon and says 8-15k but then in brackets it says total 14-21km.
Is it better to stick to the lower end of the scale,surely it's not a good idea to do a flat out HM 4 weeks out from the full marathon?

yaboya1

ooter wrote: »

What's the situation with the tune up races,the plan I'm following has tune up races pencilled in for 6 and 4 weeks out from the marathon and says 8-15k but then in brackets it says total 14-21km.
Is it better to stick to the lower end of the scale,surely it's not a good idea to do a flat out HM 4 weeks out from the full marathon?

I made a balls of this too when I was following the same plan. The race should be 8-15k, but you should do a total of 14-21k including the warm up/cool down

ainsyjnr

I followed P&D for the first time this spring to a 7 min pb of 3:08. If there were two GA days together I ran them both at the upper limit, including the progression to MP+10% if they included a recovery day after wards.

For somebody who could only get to 40mpw in the past by doing the recoveries slow on a treadmill I think that was a big help to getting me up to 70mpw, plus foam regular rolling and various potions!

I know there is a big discussion on strides on another thread but for me they helped to freshen the legs for the next challenge, they just felt dead otherwise. They are not a workout but just flushed out some of the crap that accumulates from running slow(er) most of the time.

ooter

yaboya1 wrote: »

I made a balls of this too when I was following the same plan. The race should be 8-15k, but you should do a total of 14-21k including the warm up/cool down

Ah right, cheers.

ooter

wobblemouth wrote: »

Pete Pfitzinger did a great interview with Marathon Talk podcast a while back, and explained a lot of the thinking behind the schedules, pacing, etc. Check it out before your 8 weeks into your schedule!

I remember listening to it last December but I wasn't following a plan at the time.
Glad I listened back to it,he recommended doing the strides at 800-1500m pace and also said he would add 30% more strides to the programmes if there was anything he could change now.
So I've added another 4 sessions of strides in to my programme,only on week 3 now so it shouldn't be a problem.

ooter

can anyone who has access to the book post up here what the marathon recovery plan for the up to 55 mile programme is please?
also, could anyone tell me what regular weekly mileage he recommends before starting the 55-70 mile programme?
i have a copy of the programme,just forgot to take note of that part.

yaboya1

ooter wrote: »

can anyone who has access to the book post up here what the marathon recovery plan for the up to 55 mile programme is please?
also, could anyone tell me what regular weekly mileage he recommends before starting the 55-70 mile programme?
i have a copy of the programme,just forgot to take note of that part.

Haven't got it on me at the moment, but I'll post up the recovery plan tomorrow if no-one has already done so by then.

Regarding what mileage you should already be running before starting the 55-70 plan, he recommends that you can easily cover the Long Run distance for the first week without any issues. Personally, I think you should be at least hitting 50+ miles per week by then, otherwise it's a big jump up and continues to climb gradually after that.

ooter

thanks yaboya.

dublin runner

ooter wrote: »

can anyone who has access to the book post up here what the marathon recovery plan for the up to 55 mile programme is please?
also, could anyone tell me what regular weekly mileage he recommends before starting the 55-70 mile programme?
i have a copy of the programme,just forgot to take note of that part.

They recommend that you should be running at least 45 miles the week before the schedule. They also advise that in the last month you should have comfortably a run close in length to the long run recommended in the the first week of the schedule (15).

May have time later to post the 55 mile recovery.

ooter

Hope it's OK to resurrect this thread rather than start a new one,
Could someone with the book please tell me what the plan for the final week of the 55-70 mile plan is.
I took photos of the plan from the book when I borrowed it from the library but that last week is very blurred and I can't make out the figures.

pistol_75

ooter wrote: »

Hope it's OK to resurrect this thread rather than start a new one,
Could someone with the book please tell me what the plan for the final week of the 55-70 mile plan is.
I took photos of the plan from the book when I borrowed it from the library but that last week is very blurred and I can't make out the figures.

Monday: Rest
Tuesday: Recovery (7 miles)
Wednesday: Dress rehearsal (7 miles w/2 @ MP)
Thursday: Recovery (5 miles)
Friday: Recovery + Speed (5 miles w/6x100m strides)
Saturday: Recovery (4 miles)
Sunday: Race

ooter

Brilliant, thanks a million p75

kit3

How have you found this Ooter now that you are near the end ?

ooter

kit3 wrote: »

How have you found this Ooter now that you are near the end ?

Sorry kit, just seeing your q now.
I hadn't actually started the plan when I posted that q a few months ago, I was planning on following it for DCM 15 but unfortunately I'm only back from injury.
Q for anyone that has the book, is there a 12 week 55-70 mile plan?

Clearlier

ooter wrote: »

Sorry kit, just seeing your q now.
I hadn't actually started the plan when I posted that q a few months ago, I was planning on following it for DCM 15 but unfortunately I'm only back from injury.
Q for anyone that has the book, is there a 12 week 55-70 mile plan?

Yes

ooter

Thanks clearlier.

Murph_D

Jaysus, Ooter, it's probably time to buy the book by now. :pac:

ooter

Back again folks, I'm due to do an 18 miler next sunday but I'm not going to fit it in that day, it'll have to be the Saturday so I need to tweak the schedule for next week, I was thinking of dropping the 7 miles w 8 x 100m strides due for next Saturday and doing the LT run on Tuesday as prescribed, recovery Wednesday, 11 miler on Thursday with the 8 x 100 m strides included, rest Friday and the LR Saturday.
Does that look OK?