Meet the mormons?

homer911

Anyone watch meet the mormons on Channel 4 last night?

The amount of control they hold over their members is unreal - very "cult like"

Manach

I did not watch it, football was on TV. However Channel 4 have their own institutional lens through which it views various topical subjects, and this might have effected how they sought to portray Mormons. Quite a number of my SciFi/Fan reading material originates from authors who happen to be Mormon. From their blogs, writings and articles they commonality they have is that that hold a diverse range of opinions and I've not noticed any cult-like (the term now mostly used in a pejorative sense) outpourings from them.

homer911

Manach wrote: »

I've not noticed any cult-like (the term now mostly used in a pejorative sense) outpourings from them.

I cant think of any other way to use the term. I was referring to the way they control their members, not specifically to their beliefs (definitely not biblical) or their "outpourings".

No swimming, no alcohol, no smoking, no tea or coffee, wear special underwear, obligatory tithing, no going out of sight/earshot or your co-missionary unless going to the bathroom, shunning of ex members...

EI52N7W

A group of us as young lads were asked to a meeting once as young teens and couldnt stop laughing during the meeting, as you would expect out were we put.

Benny_Cake

homer911 wrote: »

I cant think of any other way to use the term. I was referring to the way they control their members, not specifically to their beliefs (definitely not biblical) or their "outpourings".

No swimming, no alcohol, no smoking, no tea or coffee, wear special underwear, obligatory tithing, no going out of sight/earshot or your co-missionary unless going to the bathroom, shunning of ex members...

I haven't seen the show yet, I'll try to watch it this weekend, football permitting.

My understanding is that life for LDS missionaries is quite regimented (missionaries aren't supposed to swim but other LDS members can). Although it isn't LDS policy to shun ex-members, some families probably take it on themselves to do that.

I don't get the impression that they are a "cult" though. From my few encounters with Mormons they are generally kind and decent, and there is an emphasis on education that you wouldn't normally associate with a cult. There is a lot of internal debate that seems to go on as well.

lazybones32

I never trust a C4 'documentary' to give an objective assessment or appraisal of anything; they always try to paint in a negative light.

I've briefly met Mormons on mission and I must say I was impressed with their politeness, pleasantry and good-manners.
However, my sister brought home a book by the mormons, designed to instruct their children, and it was faaaar out. You'd forget that it was intended as being serious because lots of it was so ridiculous. I suppose my beliefs aren't exactly logical either, so I'll leave them to it.

Turtwig

C4 + Documentary = Fantasy.

KatyMac

I felt sorry for the young lad. It must be so difficult being cut off so completely from their family and friends for 2 years. As the interviewer said, would it be such a terrible thing to let them have a little more contact with their mum?

mezuzaj

KatyMac wrote: »

I felt sorry for the young lad. It must be so difficult being cut off so completely from their family and friends for 2 years. As the interviewer said, would it be such a terrible thing to let them have a little more contact with their mum?

Classic sect tactic.

Mormonism is a made up religion which latches onto Christianity.

Just ask them some of these questions and you will see who they start to back off and move onto the next house.

http://www.bible.ca/mor-questions.htm

Skobie 69

mezuzaj wrote: »

Classic sect tactic.

Mormonism is a made up religion which latches onto Christianity.

Just ask them some of these questions and you will see who they start to back off and move onto the next house.

I suppose they would move on because they're more interested in sharing their message with someone who wants to hear it rather than someone who doesn't.

Those questions are many & varied but in general are asked in a manner & with a purpose to catch people out rather than asked with any desire to find out more about their religion.

A quick browse of the questions seem to show that most of them are with regard to lack or percieved lack of physical evidences for Church teachings, the Book Of Mormon etc. which one can incorporate the same kind of questions & certainly the same manner of questioning for any of the Christian churches with regards to the bible or of any faith based organisation for that matter.

Its all part of a wider question of whether there is a God or not but certainly if there is one then he puts more importance in genuine seekers of understanding of our spiritual nature, putting more importance in exercising our faith, alongside an intellectual investigation into Gods teachings rather than purely basing our understanding on intellectual argument & counter argument & what we construe are or are not physical evidences of what God teaches.

newmug

There has to be some boundaries. Mormons are not Christian. They are about as Christian as those westboro Baptist loons. The "Book of Mormon" instead of the Bible, polygamy versus "Thou shalt NOT commit adultery"?


Yea. Maybe they're not quite what you'd call a cult, but they aint Christian.

Skobie 69

newmug wrote: »

There has to be some boundaries. Mormons are not Christian. They are about as Christian as those westboro Baptist loons. The "Book of Mormon" instead of the Bible, polygamy versus "Thou shalt NOT commit adultery"?


Yea. Maybe they're not quite what you'd call a cult, but they aint Christian.

It depends on what you define as Christian. If you define Christianity in its traditional sense as a follower of Jesus Christ then Mormons certainly are Christians. The Churches official name is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

We don't practice polygamy, only one wife & adultery is treated far more seriously than in most other Christian churches. The early days of the Church a restricted form of polygamy was practised but then the same is true of Christianity with polygamy being widely practised throughout Old Testament & even New Testament times.

We have the Book of Mormon as another testament of Jesus Christ which we use alongside the Bible - it does not replace it.

I know in recent times as Christianity has broken up into more & more denominations there has been many new aged redefinitions of what does & does not construe a "Christian", that's moved on from the traditional definition of what a Christian is & generally depends on what Church is carrying out the redefinition (usually & conveniently aligning closely with that Churches particular doctrines), but for me telling someone who has a particular belief in Christ that he or she is not a Christian is just about the most unchristian thing you can do.

mezuzaj

Skobie 69 wrote: »

It depends on what you define as Christian. If you define Christianity in its traditional sense as a follower of Jesus Christ then Mormons certainly are Christians. The Churches official name is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

We don't practice polygamy, only one wife & adultery is treated far more seriously than in most other Christian churches. The early days of the Church a restricted form of polygamy was practised but then the same is true of Christianity with polygamy being widely practised throughout Old Testament & even New Testament times.

We have the Book of Mormon as another testament of Jesus Christ which we use alongside the Bible - it does not replace it.

I know in recent times as Christianity has broken up into more & more denominations there has been many new aged redefinitions of what does & does not construe a "Christian", that's moved on from the traditional definition of what a Christian is & generally depends on what Church is carrying out the redefinition (usually & conveniently aligning closely with that Churches particular doctrines), but for me telling someone who has a particular belief in Christ that he or she is not a Christian is just about the most unchristian thing you can do.

Mormons have broken from Christian denominations to form their own view on Christianity. Just because the use the work Jesus Christ does not mean they follow the same person. Infact they have invented a whole narrative about a nation that never existed to whom Jesus appeared.

When Christ preached his message he preached it to his disciples and to the crowds. The places mentioned in the Bible exist. The Temple existed. Most historians agree that the Person of Jesus Christ existed.

As regards the Book of Mormon, they have concocted so many leaps of faith around what Joseph Smith said that its incredible people actually believe it. Mormonism all hangs on the writings of this one man. Christianity was not given to one many it was given to many. Why would Christ ask his apostles to preach a Gospel to all peoples and then himself go to america to preach a message that was only discovered in the 1800's and that would contradict his other message.
No historical evidence backing up the Book of mormon. Its not Christian. its a deformed sect.

homer911

Nobody doubts the sincerity of the Mormons - its not an easy path travelled, however being sincere doesnt make it right

shruikan2553

Mormons are Christians. A friend of mine was one so asked a few questions about it before. The whole polygamy thing is looked down on by many groups and they can only communicate by letters to home when out on missions. Knew it was done it pairs but didn't realise how close they had to be.

More religious than the average person anyway. They have lots of events together. Nice and friendly bunch even if their visits can be annoying.

Benny_Cake

The whole "are Mormons Christians?" debate always ends up going in circles! My personal opinion is that they are a heterodox branch of Christianity, well outside the mainstream. At the same time, they emerged from Christianity, they believe in the divinity of Christ, view the Old & New Testaments as scripture...I don't see that they fit under any other world religion, nor do I see them making up an independent religion alongside Christianity, Islam, Judaism and the rest. Not going to deny that they have some very strange beliefs and doctrines but they aren't alone there.

One concept that Mormonism does have is that of the "great apostasy", ie; that the early church believed much as the Mormons did but fell away through error. This tends to annoy a lot of people - particularly Catholic and Orthodox Christians, but individual Mormons tend to downplay this (probably out of politeness). Since we don't get many Latter-day Saints here I'd be curious to know what Skobie 69 thinks of this - are non-Mormon Christians really Christian?

gozunda

I am intrigued at the reason behind the 'no Swimming' rule for Mormon missionaries - why is this?

Benny_Cake

gozunda wrote: »

I am intrigued at the reason behind the 'no Swimming' rule for Mormon missionaries - why is this?

That was news to me, but apparently it's true - I've no idea what the reasoning behind it is:

Q: What you’re saying, then, is that a mission may be the best two years of your life thus far, but it won’t be the easiest. Is that right?

President Dunn: Yes, sir! A mission is tough! We ought to shout that in every priesthood quorum and from every Mormon housetop in the world.

I think one of the great challenges to the missionary is that we take him out of a normal environment—by normal environment I’m thinking now of boy-girl relationships. We’re saying that he can’t date, he can’t hold hands, he can’t kiss, he can’t dance, he can’t swim, he can’t shoot, he can’t motorcycle, he can’t ski, he can’t skate—and there are other can’ts.

So here he is now, committed to a new way of life. He can’t do certain things for his own spiritual protection, and that plays on some persons. I’m just as sure as I’m sitting here that the adversary uses this as a great device. So a missionary has two or three things working against him: restrictions that are abnormal in his present state of life, the adversary who’ll try harder to get him in areas where he knows the missionary might be tempted, and the restricted free agency that he must learn to live with.

(source: LDS website)

tommy2bad

Benny_Cake wrote: »

The whole "are Mormons Christians?" debate always ends up going in circles! My personal opinion is that they are a heterodox branch of Christianity, well outside the mainstream. At the same time, they emerged from Christianity, they believe in the divinity of Christ, view the Old & New Testaments as scripture...I don't see that they fit under any other world religion, nor do I see them making up an independent religion alongside Christianity, Islam, Judaism and the rest. Not going to deny that they have some very strange beliefs and doctrines but they aren't alone there.

One concept that Mormonism does have is that of the "great apostasy", ie; that the early church believed much as the Mormons did but fell away through error. This tends to annoy a lot of people - particularly Catholic and Orthodox Christians, but individual Mormons tend to downplay this (probably out of politeness). Since we don't get many Latter-day Saints here I'd be curious to know what Skobie 69 thinks of this - are non-Mormon Christians really Christian?

I duno Benny, to be christian means certain things, for one belief in the trinity and in the Jesus/God thing. Mormons don't hold either of these beliefs, they belong more in the JW camp of offshoots than even the WBC.
I'm not saying this in a judgmental way, what they hold to is their business and who's to say they are wrong but christian as it's understood they ain't.

Benny_Cake

tommy2bad wrote: »

I duno Benny, to be christian means certain things, for one belief in the trinity and in the Jesus/God thing. Mormons don't hold either of these beliefs, they belong more in the JW camp of offshoots than even the WBC.
I'm not saying this in a judgmental way, what they hold to is their business and who's to say they are wrong but christian as it's understood they ain't.

That's why I described them as unorthodox, they are clearly a long way removed from mainstream Christianity and I'd doubt that they would deny it.

mezuzaj

Benny_Cake wrote: »

That's why I described them as unorthodox, they are clearly a long way removed from mainstream Christianity and I'd doubt that they would deny it.

Benny the problem with Mormons is that they have invented a different Christ. Protestants/Catholics/Orthodox all have the same person at the centre of their teachings, Same historical figure from Israel. And we all agree more or less about Sacred Scripture, we all have the Gospels.

Mormons have their own additional Gospel based on the writings of one man.

tommy2bad

Benny_Cake wrote: »

That's why I described them as unorthodox, they are clearly a long way removed from mainstream Christianity and I'd doubt that they would deny it.

Yeah, I class them as a christian offshoot. TBH I'm inclined to be a splitter when it comes to religions so don't mind me. If you're more of a joiner then they are as christian as most of us.

shruikan2553

They view themselves as Christians and the teaching of Christ are their main focus. All Christian religions have changed over time so I find it hard to consider them anything but. They are a bit more different than the others but how many changes does a religion need to make until they are no longer Christian? Outside of not following Christs teaching of course.

tommy2bad

shruikan2553 wrote: »

They view themselves as Christians and the teaching of Christ are their main focus. All Christian religions have changed over time so I find it hard to consider them anything but. They are a bit more different than the others but how many changes does a religion need to make until they are no longer Christian? Outside of not following Christs teaching of course.

Well that's a thread in itself.

Skobie 69

Benny_Cake wrote: »

The whole "are Mormons Christians?" debate always ends up going in circles! My personal opinion is that they are a heterodox branch of Christianity, well outside the mainstream. At the same time, they emerged from Christianity, they believe in the divinity of Christ, view the Old & New Testaments as scripture...I don't see that they fit under any other world religion, nor do I see them making up an independent religion alongside Christianity, Islam, Judaism and the rest. Not going to deny that they have some very strange beliefs and doctrines but they aren't alone there.

One concept that Mormonism does have is that of the "great apostasy", ie; that the early church believed much as the Mormons did but fell away through error. This tends to annoy a lot of people - particularly Catholic and Orthodox Christians, but individual Mormons tend to downplay this (probably out of politeness). Since we don't get many Latter-day Saints here I'd be curious to know what Skobie 69 thinks of this - are non-Mormon Christians really Christian?

I would say definitely, Christians not in the Mormon Church are certainly viewed as Christians by ourselves. The Mormon Church doesn't go into judging others outside their faith. As I said before we view Christians as those who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, accept Christ as their Saviour & redeemer & try to follow his example. I understand that others of different Christian faiths have added certain caveats to what being a follower of Christ is - such as a belief in the trinity as mentioned above. We do believe in God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ & the Holy Ghost but we believe they are not physically one as in the classic Trinity definition but one in purpose.

The great apostasy as you speak of would not be unique to Mormon doctrine but is a core belief of Protestant Churches also, & the biggest reason why Martin Luther & others organised breakaways from the main Church & thereby undertook to "Reforming" their various Churches in trying to get back to the original Church Christ organised when on the Earth. We believe that you cannot reform something when it is taken away (what the apostasy spoken of in the gospels of Matthew & Mark refer to). Therefore the Church needed to be restored not reformed which Restoration, we believe, was undertaken by Jesus Christ himself & others through Joseph Smith.

Anyway for me, having studied the Gospels, I would never dream of telling someone who believes in Jesus Christ & genuinely, within the teachings of his own faith & whatever faith that would be, tries to follow Christ's example in his daily life & how he interacts with others that he is not a Christian. That judgement of others to me is inherently non-Christian. The Church (& myself) would define Christianity in its more broader sense as I have outlined above. Others are entitled to their opinion - I'm just pointing out that despite what others believe of us we would always view ourselves as Christian, in fact Christianity is central to the Church - we believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is Christs Church that he originally set up, restored back on the Earth. However those who believe in Christ in their own way are to me also Christian.

Skobie 69

gozunda wrote: »

I am intrigued at the reason behind the 'no Swimming' rule for Mormon missionaries - why is this?

These are mission rules - rules that missionaries are expected to keep for the duration of a mission - & have nothing to do with regular members not on a mission.

You may have noticed that the missionaries are all about 18-22 years old or in that age bracket at least. There's a practical reason for that I suppose, you serve a 2 year mission for a male or an 18 month mission for a female in that period between secondary school & college or full time work before people settle down & move away from home/start their own family etc. I think that should be viewed as the Church being so confident of its message that it wants to share that its fine to put all its preaching to the Youth of the Church. Its not about the missionary its about the message they share.

The reason for mission rules is to 1) Protect the missionaries & 2) to help them get the most out of their mission experience.

Believe it or not missionaries are like most people in that age group - prone to their own forms of high jinks etc. (not drink or drugs but messing around on their day off & prone to getting hurt, breaking legs etc.) Therefore they need some rules to focus themselves on why they're here & to protect themselves. Hence the no swimming rule. In the Church you could be asked to go anywhere in the world & while Irish beaches are fine & safe (mostly) some early missionaries to the South sea islands drowned while swimming so its decided better off no swimming. As soon as your mission is up you can jump back in the pool, but not while on a mission.

newmug

shruikan2553 wrote: »

They view themselves as Christians and the teaching of Christ are their main focus. All Christian religions have changed over time so I find it hard to consider them anything but. They are a bit more different than the others but how many changes does a religion need to make until they are no longer Christian? Outside of not following Christs teaching of course.

I'm sorry, but you are so, so wrong on this. You couldn't be wronger. The Catholic Church did not change one iota. Not one bit. Much to the dismay of feminists, but that's the way Jesus set it up, and we're leaving it like that. The Catholic Church is the original, untainted, absolute true Christianity. Our HQ is even still on the very spot where St. Peter is buried! Peter means rock in Hebrew. "Upon this rock I will build my Church"

shruikan2553

newmug wrote: »

I'm sorry, but you are so, so wrong on this. You couldn't be wronger. The Catholic Church did not change one iota. Not one bit. Much to the dismay of feminists, but that's the way Jesus set it up, and we're leaving it like that. The Catholic Church is the original, untainted, absolute true Christianity. Our HQ is even still on the very spot where St. Peter is buried! Peter means rock in Hebrew. "Upon this rock I will build my Church"

The sale of indulgences? Unbaptised babies? Thats just 2 things off the top of my head. The church has changed over time to reflect society for fear of being left to die in the past. Gay people are now ok, it is just their actions that are sinful.
The Catholic church is the original for of Christianity but untainted is completely wrong. Ireland and Poland know this very well and many schisms have be caused due to believed taint in the RCC.
Every religion think they are the one true religion, take a ticket and wait your turn.

This topic is about Mormons, a group who seem themselves as Christians and as long as they follow the teachings of Christ then they have the same right to that claim as the RCC.

newmug

shruikan2553 wrote: »

This topic is about Mormons, a group who seem themselves as Christians and as long as they follow the teachings of Christ then they have the same right to that claim as the RCC.

Of course they have the "right". The same way some deluded American tourists have the "right" to call themselves Irish because their great uncle's second wifes cousin fourth removed was Irish. Yep.

shruikan2553

newmug wrote: »

Of course they have the "right". The same way some deluded American tourists have the "right" to call themselves Irish because their great uncle's second wifes cousin fourth removed was Irish. Yep.

Except in this case the Mormons are right. I asked a person who used to be one, he says they are. A bit different to other more mainstream Christians like Catholics and Protestants but Christ is the center of their teachings.
You can disagree with that and say they have changed from the original church but so have Catholics. You both have an equal claim to be right along with every other Christian religion but it is understandable why you would be biased.

newmug

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Except in this case the Mormons are right. I asked a person who used to be one, he says they are. A bit different to other more mainstream Christians like Catholics and Protestants but Christ is the center of their teachings.
You can disagree with that and say they have changed from the original church but so have Catholics. You both have an equal claim to be right along with every other Christian religion but it is understandable why you would be biased.

Are you saying then, that the American tourist is wrong to claim that they're Irish? What defines Irishness anyway? If its citizenship, then the American is NOT Irish. If its culture, they're NOT Irish either. But if its genetics, then they might just have some grounds to their claim, but its still a very, very long shot.


Its a good analogy. Whatever way you cut it, Mormons are to Christianity what that American tourist is to Irishness. Its not about the "right" to "claim" anything. Christianity is about loving God, and loving your neighbour. And if you really loved God, you'd follow the Church He himself set up.

shruikan2553

newmug wrote: »

Are you saying then, that the American tourist is wrong to claim that they're Irish? What defines Irishness anyway? If its citizenship, then the American is NOT Irish. If its culture, they're NOT Irish either. But if its genetics, then they might just have some grounds to their claim, but its still a very, very long shot.


Its a good analogy. Whatever way you cut it, Mormons are to Christianity what that American tourist is to Irishness. Its not about the "right" to "claim" anything. Christianity is about loving God, and loving your neighbour. And if you really loved God, you'd follow the Church He himself set up.

Yeah....not really. Mormons do that, they are just another off shoot like Protestantism. Christ died before the Roman Catholic Church was started up so had nothing to do with it and anyone who "really loved god" would follow his teachings, not people and fight against what they saw as corruption of these teachings.

In the end mormons are Christians whether you like it and not and any I have met definitely have a more Christian attitude than you do.