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Meet the Mormons
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26-06-2014 10:17pm#1
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Deferring to the skeptic/atheist due to their greater knowledge of YOUR religion. Well Holy Mary Mother of God, I've heard it all now.
Skobie 69. Heard of the scam cult called Scientology started in the 1950's? John Smiths Mormonism is the 1830 equivelent. Islam is the 650AD equivalent, Christianity is the 50AD equivalent, Judaism is the..................etc0 -
Sorry Brian. I've only looked into the Church enough to join it & being active in it for the last 25 years so I defer to you're obviously greater knowledge on the subject. How was it founded by a con-artist?
A) the golden tablets, which appeared then just as magically disappeared, with no independent witnesses.
His various convictions for different fraudulent activities.
C) Have you read the book of mormon? Because I have, and not a bigger gam on is to be found. Made for good toilet paper though.And if as you say it was founded by a con-artist as a scam then its some accident that its members are singled out consistently by people not of the Church the World over for their honesty & the Church that a con somehow thought up of 200 years ago is 15 million strong today & has been the fastest growing Church in the world for many generations now.
John Rabe a convinced and high-level Nazi was instrumental in saving over 200,000 Chinese people after the Japanese sacking of Nanking during the Sino-Japanese war of 1937-1945. That does not make Nazism any less of a monstrous ideology, it just signifies that John Rabe was a good man taken in by an evil crowd. Oskar Schindler (the hero of the eponymous book and film), was too a convinced and active Nazi until he realised the monstrosity of the regime. There were literally millions of good people who worked within the Nazi system in Germany and ethnic German Europe, that doesn't make Nazism itself good. The same holds for mormonism, just because good people believe in it doesn't make it any less of a fraud.0 -
Deferring to the skeptic/atheist due to their greater knowledge of YOUR religion. Well Holy Mary Mother of God, I've heard it all now.
Skobie 69. Heard of the scam cult called Scientology started in the 1950's? John Smiths Mormonism is the 1830 equivelent. Islam is the 650AD equivalent, Christianity is the 50AD equivalent, Judaism is the..................etc
Pointless explaining some things. Scientology & Mormonism have nothing in common. Go back look at my post above & you'll see why. If you want to attack Scientology then go to the Scientology post. In fact Scientology belief system is closer to Atheism. So you might as well say as Scientology is a cult then Atheism is also a cult! Your point is that senseless. Where does the muck throwing stop & a rationale for your views start?0 -
Brian Shanahan wrote: »A) the golden tablets, which appeared then just as magically disappeared, with no independent witnesses. His various convictions for ...
C) Have you read the book of mormon? Because I have, and not a bigger gam on is to be found. Made for good toilet paper though.
A) There were many witnesses - 11 of whom gave sworn testimony to seeing the plates. Many of these died in the faith but some did not. Even though they were not alligned to the Church at their death none of them ever denied their testimony of seeing the plates.
Your issue is with regard to lack or perceived lack of physical evidences for Church the Book Of Mormon etc. which one can incorporate the same kind of question with regards to the bible or of any faith based organisation for that matter. Its all part of a wider question of whether there is a God or not but certainly if there is one then he puts more importance in genuine seekers of understanding of our spiritual nature, putting more importance in exercising our faith, alongside an intellectual investigation into Gods teachings rather than purely basing our understanding on intellectual argument & counter argument & what we construe are or are not physical evidences of what God teaches. The tainting of Joseph Smith as a "con-artist" is an update on early 1800's opponents of Mormonism dismissing Joseph Smith as a "juggler," or "conjurer" which was a common 19th century method of dismissing his prophetic claims via ad hominem (attack the man & not his message). Modern-day claims about him being found to be a "con man" are simply the same attack with updated language, usually bolstered by a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of Joseph's 1826 court hearing on Joseph Smiths claims on divine revelation or special abilities. No official court record survives from this hearing with many doubting that there was a trial at all. There was a hearing but it seems to be from county records a pretrial hearing & pretrial hearings cannot deliver guilty verdicts. However Joseph Smith was not given jail time or the court did not assess a fine against Joseph. "There were bills made out by Judge Neely and Constable DeZeng, but these were for costs. Those bills were directed to the County for payment of witnesses, etc., not to Joseph". This isn't consistent with any conviction.
Even if one rejects Joseph's claims to divine revelation or special abilities, his conduct still does not match that of a "con man":
- Con men seek out their marks; Joseph was approached for his help by those who had heard about him
- Con men travel from place to place, staying one step ahead of the law while defrauding their marks; Joseph was known locally and remained in his local area.
Finally, even if Joseph Smith was convicted for his claim to divine revelation or special abilities & you feel this is a reason to dismiss all Mormonism I seem to remember Jesus Christ himself being convicted of the same thing & condemned to death for it. On that basis are you also dismissing all of Christianity as false for being founded by a convicted "Con Man"?Brian Shanahan wrote: »John Rabe a convinced and high-level Nazi was instrumental in saving over 200,000 Chinese people after the Japanese sacking of Nanking during the Sino-Japanese war of 1937-1945. That does not make Nazism any less of a monstrous ideology, it just signifies that John Rabe was a good man taken in by an evil crowd. Oskar Schindler (the hero of the eponymous book and film), was too a convinced and active Nazi until he realised the monstrosity of the regime. There were literally millions of good people who worked within the Nazi system in Germany and ethnic German Europe, that doesn't make Nazism itself good. The same holds for mormonism, just because good people believe in it doesn't make it any less of a fraud.
Your Nazism analogy although sensationalist is irrelevant to the point you're trying to make. Yes there were good people caught up in Nazism but Nazism came crashing down & failed dramatically as an ideology because it was inherently evil. Mormonism has thrived since its inception almost 200 years ago & continues to be the fastest growing church in the World.0 -
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A) There were many witnesses - 11 of whom gave sworn testimony to seeing the plates. Many of these died in the faith but some did not. Even though they were not alligned to the Church at their death none of them ever denied their testimony of seeing the plates.
There are many witnesses to the "miracle" at Fatima, none of them were independent. Same goes for the eleven "witnesses" to the golden tablets. Strange how he only ever showed them to his closest confidants isn't it?Your issue is with regard to lack or perceived lack of physical evidences for Church the Book Of Mormon etc.
You're right my issue is with a book which has no evidence for its veracity, and a hell of a lot of evidence that it is a made up pile of pewk (come on, you believe a book which magically transports the "missing" tribes of Israel across 4,000 miles of water, and says that the majority of humanity are doomed to hell simply because of the colour of their skin). Nothing you have actually written goes to disproving my theory that the book of mormon is a fraud. The tainting of Joseph Smith as a "con-artist" is an update on early 1800's opponents of Mormonism dismissing Joseph Smith as a "juggler," or "conjurer" which was a common 19th century method of dismissing his prophetic claims via ad hominem (attack the man & not his message). Modern-day claims about him being found to be a "con man" are simply the same attack with updated language, usually bolstered by a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of Joseph's 1826 court hearing on Joseph Smiths claims on divine revelation or special abilities. No official court record survives from this hearing with many doubting that there was a trial at all. There was a hearing but it seems to be from county records a pretrial hearing & pretrial hearings cannot deliver guilty verdicts. However Joseph Smith was not given jail time or the court did not assess a fine against Joseph. "There were bills made out by Judge Neely and Constable DeZeng, but these were for costs. Those bills were directed to the County for payment of witnesses, etc., not to Joseph". This isn't consistent with any conviction.
He was conviceted twice for fraudulent activities by properly empannelled juries according to the then laws of the US, one for preaching false religion for personal gain, the other for practising illegal banking in order to defraud others. He also skipped out on a third fraud charge, also for illegal banking. If that is not sufficient evidence to call him a con-man, then we cannot ascribe any characteristic to anyone.
I'm sorry but your illogical, irrational and untrue religion was set up by a fraudster, in order to con others out of their money and to gain power over those same people. I fell sorry that a) you cannot accept the evidence that i) the religion is false (all religions are by the way), ii) your religious leader was a con man, and iii) the holy book you worship is an obvious tissue of lies written in order to fool the gullible; and b) you are so set in defending the indefensible.
To set this out as final: Mormonism is a lie.0 -
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and I thought he was just a fictional character from a book. 
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