Block layer says I don't need to have a foundation dug for boundary wall?

Pumpkinseeds

I got a guy out to give me a quote for a small length of boundary wall. It's about 3 metres long and will be about 6 feet tall. He says he doesn't think it'll need to have a foundation dug out but I'm not sure if that's right or if he's just conning me. I'm just curious if anyone who knows the trade could advise me on this?

sydthebeat

What is he building it on?

Pumpkinseeds

sydthebeat wrote: »

What is he building it on?

Concrete.

Glebee

Walk away from him as quick as you can.

Carpenter

Don't walk away RUN away

Pumpkinseeds

Carpenter wrote: »

Don't walk away RUN away

That's what I thought

Glebee

Just thinking out loud here, but I wonder is he suggesting just building up off an existing concrete yard our other solid surface.??? Not good practice anyway?

Pumpkinseeds

Yeah, the garden is concrete so I'm guessing he was planning on sticking it straight on to the existing concrete, either way he won't be getting the job. I think he just thought that since I'm a woman I wouldn't have a clue. I don't have a clue about building but it didn't sound right to me.

Sam Kade

Carpenter wrote: »

Don't walk away RUN away

But why would the op run away from their own property

Gumbo

Maybe post a picture of the location the new wall will be in?

Pumpkinseeds

It's just an end wall. The neighbours either side of us built walls years ago so we just need to put a bit of breeze block wall and a new gate in at the bottom of the garden. The houses are terraced and over 40 years old and it's just concrete. Either side of us dug foundations when theirs were built, so I just felt that he was doing a rush job by not digging foundations.

Surely by just laying blocks on old concrete there'd be nothing to anchor the wall and over time the base of the wall would become unstable?

tenifan

Did he offer to tarmac your driveway? Do you like dags?

fred funk }{

If the existing concrete is sufficient then what's the problem with using it? Am I missing something obvious here?

BryanF

fred funk }{ wrote: »

If the existing concrete is sufficient then what's the problem with using it? Am I missing something obvious here?

Were all missing something.
A site visit

OP I suggest you get a 2nd opinion.

cork2

fred funk }{ wrote: »

If the existing concrete is sufficient then what's the problem with using it? Am I missing something obvious here?

The problem is nobody knows if it is sufficient or not. What depth is the concrete? Is there rebar in it? what kind of ground is it poured on? is it in anyway level? In such situations I'd be inclined to presume it's insufficient rather than sufficient.

wexie

cork2 wrote: »

The problem is nobody knows if it is sufficient or not. What depth is the concrete? Is there rebar in it? what kind of ground is it poured on? is it in anyway level? In such situations I'd be inclined to presume it's insufficient rather than sufficient.

The blocklayer has seen it....but everybody is assuming he's a rip off merchant who's trying to pull a fast one.

Pumpkinseeds

wexie wrote: »

The blocklayer has seen it....but everybody is assuming he's a rip off merchant who's trying to pull a fast one.

That's because there are so many cowboys around that people are naturally wary. As I said earlier, I don't know about these things which is why I asked here. The concrete would be decades old. The guy who originally owned the house had the back yard concreted and it's uneven in the areas I can see around the rest of the garden. The town is very damp and I had heard when they built the last development in the town that the things they sink, don't know what they're called, disappeared.

I'm just trying to get a wall built and in the process avoid getting stung by someone who does a substandard job that we end up having to get someone else to rebuild. I'd have preferred to get someone by word of mouth locally but the names I've been given are all lads in their late 20's/early 30's who have all gone abroad.

wexie

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

That's because there are so many cowboys around that people are naturally wary. As I said earlier, I don't know about these things which is why I asked here. The concrete would be decades old. The guy who originally owned the house had the back yard concreted and it's uneven in the areas I can see around the rest of the garden. The town is very damp and I had heard when they built the last development in the town that the things they sink, don't know what they're called, disappeared.

I'm just trying to get a wall built and in the process avoid getting stung by someone who does a substandard job that we end up having to get someone else to rebuild. I'd have preferred to get someone by word of mouth locally but the names I've been given are all lads in their late 20's/early 30's who have all gone abroad.

Don't get me wrong, there's every chance the blocklayer WAS chancing his arm (certainly from your last post), I just don't understand how there's lots of people saying 'we can't possibly know as we haven't seen it, but that guy's wrong'

Pumpkinseeds

wexie wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, there's every chance the blocklayer WAS chancing his arm (certainly from your last post), I just don't understand how there's lots of people saying 'we can't possibly know as we haven't seen it, but that guy's wrong'

Maybe it's because it's more usual to put a foundation under a boundary wall. When I was telling my husband about it last night he was very sceptical and cynical about the guy. Realistically it'd be a quick filler job for the guy to build the wall without having to take the time to dig the foundation.

cork2

wexie wrote: »

The blocklayer has seen it....but everybody is assuming he's a rip off merchant who's trying to pull a fast one.

Wrong, I never mentioned the man being a rip off merchant. My concern is seeing it or not from just seeing a slab of concrete the majority of the time you can't see how thick it is, you can't see what steel if any is in slab and you can't see the structure underneath. But if I'm wrong and by some cance he can answer all three of my queries and the slab is sufficient then let the man get to work.

martinn123

I wonder how many have read the first post.

It's a 3m length X 2m high, boundary wall.

While I agree it should be done properly, some of the comments here might suggest it's a two storey extension.

Don't spare the Coyboy references also.

So let's Kango out the existing concrete, lay a new foundation, and multiply the cost by ??

Alan Shore

Surely a cowboy would say:
Cut out the existing concrete, dig a trench, pour the foundations, build the wall, a grand in cash! Please and thanks.

Don't builders normally try to overstate the work rather than understate it.

I would have thought some kind of a new footing would be appropriate but have not seen it so who knows.

galwaytt

martinn123 wrote: »

So let's Kango out the existing concrete, lay a new foundation, and multiply the cost by ??

so you've seen the site then, and deemed the concrete suitable ?

martinn123

galwaytt wrote: »

so you've seen the site then, and deemed the concrete suitable ?

How the heck, could I have seen the site, and deemed anything suitable, or not, this is the Internet mate, plus you missed the bit where I said " Let's Kango out the Concrete"

Strange as you quoted it?

OH and don't forget as it's a boundary wall, to go in next door, as the foundations need to be wider than the block, hope they have no flower beds.

cork2

martinn123 wrote: »

How the heck, could I have seen the site, and deemed anything suitable, or not, this is the Internet mate, plus you missed the bit where I said " Let's Kango out the Concrete"

Strange as you quoted it?

When you mention kangoing out the concrete and multiplying the cost it sounded as though you were implying we were trying to jack up the price whereas from our point of view structural integrity and safety were of premium concern.

martinn123

cork2 wrote: »

When you mention kangoing out the concrete and multiplying the cost it sounded as though you were implying we were trying to jack up the price whereas from our point of view structural integrity and safety were of premium concern.

Of course I agree with structural integrity and safety, but again it's a 3m x 2m wall, references to steel in the Concrete etc, and how secure it is are fine but a bit OTT.

My point being let's see the cost for a wall, build on the existing concrete, and the additional cost for a Kango job, new foundation etc, and let the OP decide,

sydthebeat

Ah yes, the bottom line is to be obeyed.

sydthebeat

Ah yes, the bottom line is to be obeyed.

martinn123

sydthebeat wrote: »

Ah yes, the bottom line is to be obeyed.

No, but take a practical situation, again I stress it's a 3m X 2 m wall

So say the original quote was , 2 men, 1 day, plus materials =600

Now we need a Kango, hired 100, dig it out, Plus " can I leave the debris here, or do I hire a mini-skip " 150,

Now it's 2 men, 2 days, skip, concrete, plus Kango, = 1200, (a little bit of profit included in these figures )

Result The Coyboy will do it for 600, the real guy wants 1200.

OP you decide.

I am not advocating either situations, just pointing out the reality.

Pumpkinseeds

There's an interesting mix of opinions. The quote I was given was 250 for labour and materials. The first quote I was given a year ago by a different blocklayer was 1000. The wall on 1 side of us was built without piers and is badly cracked, it also has gaps we can see through into next doors garden where the cement has fallen out, gets worse every year and was built by the owner who is a builder.

The wall on the other side of us was a self build job and isn't in great condition. There seems to be some shifting going on with the terrace. I'm not trying to tarnish anybody's reputation, I just don't want to get stung. It's just a standard concrete path outside our garden, our garden and the gardens either side of us are concreted.

I'm just don't think that a layer of cement under the brick is going to last long. Surely a foundation is the better option.

wexie

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I'm just don't think that a layer of cement under the brick is going to last long. Surely a foundation is the better option.

Sure sounds like it from what you've said, 250 also seems awfully cheap for a job well done.

Could you talk to your neighbours at either end and see would they be interested in having theirs knocked down (if they're already half falling down) and splitting the cost of having a proper wall erected. I'm guessing that a third of 9x2 may well be cheaper than all of 1 * 3x2?

Pumpkinseeds

wexie wrote: »

Sure sounds like it from what you've said, 250 also seems awfully cheap for a job well done.

Could you talk to your neighbours at either end and see would they be interested in having theirs knocked down (if they're already half falling down) and splitting the cost of having a proper wall erected. I'm guessing that a third of 9x2 may well be cheaper than all of 1 * 3x2?

No, the guy on one side of us is a builder as is his brother in law and the state of his own wall is shocking. I wouldn't want them doing anything to our property.The guy on the other side doesn't maintain his property in any way whatsoever. I'll post a picture of the ground tomorrow.

Johnnyhpipe

I'm a structural engineer and I appreciate that structural advice is not allowed here..however I feel obliged to point this out

...of course it needs a foundation. That's what stops it falling over on top of your kids when the wind blows.

Pumpkinseeds

Thanks for the replies, below are 2 photos of where the wall will be.

Gumbo

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Thanks for the replies, below are 2 photos of where the wall will be.

I think you need a foundation.

Slicemeister

From those pictures looks like you need foundations.

cork2

martinn123 wrote: »

Of course I agree with structural integrity and safety, but again it's a 3m x 2m wall, references to steel in the Concrete etc, and how secure it is are fine but a bit OTT.

My point being let's see the cost for a wall, build on the existing concrete, and the additional cost for a Kango job, new foundation etc, and let the OP decide,

I hear what you're saying but cost having any influence is unacceptable. If you can't afford the foundation you can't afford the wall end of. If a 3mx2m concrete wall keels over and falls on someone it'll leave more than a scratch. I'm not trying to insult but opinions like this are why I welcome the new regulations that came in as of march. In some countries you'd have to involved building control for this job, now that's OTT.

Phil_Lives

Why not just replace the rotted, shabby looking planks with fresh stained, treated boards at a fraction of the price. Minimal disruption as opposed to the half-arsed job that is being proposed as an alternative.

Pumpkinseeds

Phil_Lives wrote: »

Why not just replace the rotted, shabby looking planks with fresh stained, treated boards at a fraction of the price. Minimal disruption as opposed to the half-arsed job that is being proposed as an alternative.

Because I don't want a fence, I want a wall. There's no way we'll let anyone build a wall without a foundation.

hexosan

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Because I don't want a fence, I want a wall. There's no way we'll let anyone build a wall without a foundation.

Well then get someone to price a wall with foundations included, problem solved.

Pumpkinseeds

hexosan wrote: »

Well then get someone to price a wall with foundations included, problem solved.

That's what I will be doing, thanks for the constructive advice:rolleyes:

hexosan

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

That's what I will be doing, thanks for the constructive advice:rolleyes:

Your welcome

RITwing

martinn123 wrote: »

OP you decide..

The building owner has prime responsibility to decide I agree with this man.