Zoe/Leaf Battery Rental Figures, Why are The Irish Obsessed with owning Everything ?

I said I'd post this up on a separate thread.

Please feel free to correct if necessary my numbers.

Battery rental makes a lot of sense if you drive a lot of miles or intend to fast charge multiple times daily.

On the U.K Leaf site battery lease over 36 months 15K miles costs 109 Pounds pm. (135 Euro's)

From now on I'll just refer to Euro's.

Excess costs €9.34/100 miles.

So my average mileage is about 20,000 per year so 80K miles over say 4 years.


Rental = 6,480 Euro's over 4 years to do the 15K miles a year and 60K miles over 4 years.

The excess mileage = 20K miles.

20 K miles extra cost .

9.34 per 100 miles over, so 20,000/100 = 200 x 9.34 =€1,868.

So for me to drive 80K miles it will cost me a grand total of €8,298.

How does this compare to diesel ? Ok, of you get 58 mpg for arguments sake in the newest diesel clio it would need 6,271 litres of diesel @ 1.44 = 9,030 Euro's.

Wait, a minute, we've not included electricity costs.

If the Leaf has an EPA consumption of 29 Kwh/100 miles (34 for the MK I) but I'm going to calculate the MK 1.5.

So you divide 80,000 into 100 to find out how many Kwh needed for 80K miles.

Needs 23,200 Kwh x 0.09 C/Kwh night rate = 2,000 Euro's.

Interestingly that's about 8 months driving in the Prius compared to 4 years driving in a Leaf !

The total for the Leaf and rental = €10,298. for 4 years and 80,000 miles. INC electricity.

This makes it just under a grand more expensive than the Diesel clio, that's if of course you can average 58 mpg per tank , the gap narrows the less mpg you get.

All this still excludes the purchase prices of the vehicles and the price for Zoe is still not on the site, I really wish I knew why zoe still isn't available.

A diesel clio higher spec costs €23,000 for the automatic.

A higher spec Leaf will cost around 28K for the highest spec. or 23K without the battery which is interesting.

So the Leaf without battery would cost 25,520K + 10,298 inc battery rental/ leccy =35,818

The diesel clio would cost 23K + 9K = 32K.

Now I am excluding the maintenance cost of the Clio which will be much higher over 80K miles. Costing maybe 1500 over 3 years, excluding timing belt after 80 K miles costing 400 euro ? =1900 . costing nearly 34K.

Not including the extra cost of motor tax.

A leaf with 80K miles will only need fluid changes around 100K miles and "inspections" and a battery check.

A leaf with battery will cost 28K for the high spec out the door with granny cable + leccy 30K over 80 K miles.

The Leaf is about 4 K cheaper without rental, however you can't replace the battery.

With the Leaf you do get more gadgets and the ability to remote activate heat/ac which is a function a lot of owners that have it couldn't now live without.

The Leaf will still be a good car even after 100K miles and whenever the battery needs replacing it will still be a very good car.

So battery rental doesn't seem that bad ?

robtri

a nice look at it there....

it really doesn't stack up as a money saver then the EV....

And considering the enviromental damage building these cars does and that the electricity to supply them is dirty...
I fail to see the appeal of them

robtri

robtri wrote: »

a nice look at it there....

it really doesn't stack up as a money saver then the EV....

And considering the enviromental damage building these cars does and that the electricity to supply them is dirty...
I fail to see the appeal of them

They are no worse for the environment than an ordinary ice in their production.

Electricity generated at night wastes a lot of fuel because the power stations have to be kept going to be available for demand, electrics can at least use that wasted power.

The refining of petrol and diesel uses enough electricity to power something like half a billion electric cars, the exact figure I can get. Based on U.K refineries.

So I would say electric cars are far greener. + you don;t get diesel exhaust in towns and cities.

robtri

robtri wrote: »

it really doesn't stack up as a money saver then the EV....

It doesn't in regard to leasing, based on Leaf figures from the U.K, however this could be different in Ireland for Zoe.

However based on a car of similar size such as a golf, though the Golf is smaller, then the cost of the Golf DSG Highline = 29K with a lower spec than the highest spec Leaf.

so then the Golf will cost if you can average 55 mpg over 80K miles a total of €9,521.

The highest spec Leaf, higher spec than Golf, costs about 28K with granny cable, cost of leccy for 80K miles on night rate leccy = 2K. Total cost 30K

Total cost for Golf = 38,521 excluding the difference in servicing.

So I'd say that's a fair difference.

You can buy the base leaf with quick charge for 21,500.

robtri

Deleted User wrote: »

They are no worse for the environment than an ordinary ice in their production.

Electricity generated at night wastes a lot of fuel because the power stations have to be kept going to be available for demand, electrics can at least use that wasted power.

The refining of petrol and diesel uses enough electricity to power something like half a billion electric cars, the exact figure I can get. Based on U.K refineries.

So I would say electric cars are far greener. + you don;t get diesel exhaust in towns and cities.

I would disagree about the production piece, Lithium mining is hugely damaging to the environment.

I see the point about the exhaust fumes in town, and thinking on it I do agree this is a real plus point, but the overall damage to the air on a larger scale is similair as we just don't have enough renewables.

robtri

robtri wrote: »

I would disagree about the production piece, Lithium mining is hugely damaging to the environment.

I see the point about the exhaust fumes in town, and thinking on it I do agree this is a real plus point, but the overall damage to the air on a larger scale is similair as we just don't have enough renewables.

Only if you buy from certain Chinese mines which are now actually getting shut down, more and more each day.

There are only small amounts of lithium in car batteries, Graphite is the main one and Tesla were heavily criticised for supposedly using supplies from China when in fact Elon mush himself said they get their lithium from well regulated mines from Japan.

Currently most battery production is to supply demand for consumer electronics.

NEC probably also get their minerals from Japan for the Leaf batteries.

BMJD

robtri wrote: »

I would disagree about the production piece, Lithium mining is hugely damaging to the environment.

I see the point about the exhaust fumes in town, and thinking on it I do agree this is a real plus point, but the overall damage to the air on a larger scale is similair as we just don't have enough renewables.

are you comparing like with like?

i.e. the cost of oil exploration, extraction, refinement, transport, etc. Vs the batteries?

As I said refinement of oil to petrol and diesel consumes enough electricity alone to power half a billion electric cars.

So anyway, no interest in talking about the battery rental ?

What do people think of my figures above ?

beazee

I'd say it's the fact you've to pay "extra" each month that kills the joy of owning Zoe.

Say you meet you ICE friend at the petrol station - he has just put €70 into the tank.
And you've to put €135 in a week coming towards battery rental. It does kill the discussion on "saving through EV ownership".

With LEAF it's a different story - that €70 would pay the "extra" on home electricity bill for 4 months.
Each time you're passing the garage you may feel you have saved that bit.

All that initial cost of buying a car apart.

I could probably swap my current car for the new Zoe once it's available at no extra cost.
But the €135 pm for the battery rental is actually more than what I currently put in the tank*.
So I keep paying more for a smaller car with way quieter engine.
Nah!


*Sorry, checked this - €2081 for petrol in 2013 (€166 pm). Not much of the savings then.
OK, newer car but smaller.

gctest50

Deleted User wrote: »

As I said refinement of oil to petrol and diesel consumes enough electricity alone to power half a billion electric cars.

Mining and transporting the metals for batteries for electric cars is a bit rough too

Mods, can you please delete the above post as I don't want this thread getting hijacked like all the others.

Gctest50 if you want to debate the environmental impact of electrics then please do it in your own thread.

gctest50

Deleted User wrote: »

Mods, can you please delete the above post as I don't want this thread getting hijacked like all the others.

Gctest50 if you want to debate the environmental impact of electrics then please do it in your own thread.

I'm not derailing/hijacking it

Diesel / petrol - you need big holes in the ground or under the sea

EV - you need big holes in the ground

Its not the magic ticket - it is the absolute doggies for the school / shopping run though

the little diesels can cost you very dearly if they are on short runs

- a little electric yoke would whizz away for many 100,000s miles

iffy servicing .......... turbo failure + bad replacement procedure = €€€€€€€€€€ :

http://www.assuredperformance.ie/assets/images/Presentation-1.6-hdi-carbo-issues.pdf

.

KrustyBurger

I wouldn't countenance battery rental. The Leaf makes sense to me as the savings in fuel costs can make a large dent in repayments. If I had to rent a battery each month it wouldn't be doable so I won't consider it.

gctest50

gctest50 wrote: »

I'm not derailing/hijacking it

Diesel / petrol - you need big holes in the ground or under the sea

EV - you need big holes in the ground

Its not the magic ticket - it is the absolute doggies for the school / shopping run though

the little diesels can cost you very dearly if they are on short runs

- a little electric yoke would whizz away for many 100,000s miles

iffy servicing .......... turbo failure + bad replacement procedure = €€€€€€€€€€ :

http://www.assuredperformance.ie/assets/images/Presentation-1.6-hdi-carbo-issues.pdf

.

Look, You can create a thread of your own and by all means we can debate the environmental impacts of electrics V ice then.

Please just keep it on topic, that is discussing battery rental.

beazee

beazee wrote: »

I'd say it's the fact you've to pay "extra" each month that kills the joy of owning Zoe.

My figures could be off for Zoe as the numbers I got are for the Leaf and UK prices. That's why I titles the thread as I did.

You're not really paying extra though, because in the case of the Leaf the car actually costs 6,860 Euro's without the battery in the U.K.

So 135 PM is € 6,480 over 4 years, what (I) would pay over 80K miles in excess is 1,868 extra.

You're still going to be paying for a loan PM anyway and if you buy the car with the battery you'll actually pay more due to interest.

If you Buy the car with the battery you're monthly payments will be more either way.

beazee wrote: »

Say you meet you ICE friend at the petrol station - he has just put €70 into the tank.
And you've to put €135 in a week coming towards battery rental. It does kill the discussion on "saving through EV ownership".

It doesn't actually because your friend will have paid more for his equivalent car in the first place + he's paying much higher fuel costs.

beazee wrote: »

I could probably swap my current car for the new Zoe once it's available at no extra cost.
But the €135 pm for the battery rental is actually more than what I currently put in the tank*.
So I keep paying more for a smaller car with way quieter engine.
Nah!

If you get a new car then anything you buy will cost you much more PM than just paying for fuel in your current car.

If you buy Zoe without battery it still won't cost you more, because the "total" you pay back over 4 years will be the same, only mine higher because of the fact I have to drive a lot. Though hopefully this year that will have dropped a lot.

beazee wrote: »

*Sorry, checked this - €2081 for petrol in 2013 (€166 pm). Not much of the savings then.
OK, newer car but smaller.

You're completely missing the point, The battery rental is offset against the cheaper cost of the car. If the car included the battery you'll still have the same PM to pay battery or not because what you'd pay PM in the rental will be included in the repayments on the car, the difference being, you're paying more interest on the car with the battery and so for me this could offset the excess in total.

KrustyBurger

KrustyBurger wrote: »

I wouldn't countenance battery rental. The Leaf makes sense to me as the savings in fuel costs can make a large dent in repayments. If I had to rent a battery each month it wouldn't be doable so I won't consider it.

The thing is though, if you're not paying battery rental then you're paying 6,800 more on the cost of the car + interest, so you end up paying the same.

It just means your car repayments will be higher per month anyway.

I'll do another example on a cheaper monthly payment and lower miles in a while.

robtri

Deleted User wrote: »

As I said refinement of oil to petrol and diesel consumes enough electricity alone to power half a billion electric cars.

and I am sure the mining and transportaion of Lithium use similar amounts..

ei9go

On Topic

I would not buy any car where I had to pay a monthly charge to the manufacturer in order to use it.

KrustyBurger

If I was buying an EV then I'd be looking longterm. So I'm thinking of buying a Leaf in the UK and importing it (thanks for link). After I finish repayments then I'm saving roughly 200/month on fuel. That would be wiped out if I had to lease a battery.

wexie

ei9go wrote: »

On Topic

I would not buy any car where I had to pay a monthly charge to the manufacturer in order to use it.

I'd be perfectly happy paying a battery lease, if they managed to give me a somewhat useful range, but from what I gather real world figures are 70/80 miles on a charge and that's assuming no traffic, hills or strong winds.

I'll stick to daysel thank you.

ei9go

ei9go wrote: »

On Topic

I would not buy any car where I had to pay a monthly charge to the manufacturer in order to use it.

Depends, might suit the high mileage driver, makes no difference to the lower mileage driver who would probably run up 80K miles in 10-12 years.

If someone wants to use the fast chargers a lot it also makes sense.

Lots of people lease, it's no big deal.

Do you really want to own the battery in the first place, especially if it's going to degrade ?

Nissan should allow people to buy a new battery to begin with or allow 2nd hand owners to buy or lease a new abttery.

wexie

Deleted User wrote: »

Nissan should allow people to buy a new battery to begin with or allow 2nd hand owners to buy or lease a new abttery.

Do they not do this? It'd be extraordinarily stupid if they didn't no? Essentially then if you buy one you're stuck with it, nobody in their right mind would buy one second hand

Scottie99

I've be trying to find the Irish renting prices but to avail. Firstly, I'd add 10/20% onto the UK prices because......that's just usually the way it is. Then I'd go from there.

wexie

wexie wrote: »

Do they not do this? It'd be extraordinarily stupid if they didn't no? Essentially then if you buy one you're stuck with it, nobody in their right mind would buy one second hand

No they don't allow you buy a new battery outright, not yet anyway.

I would be interested in buying a 2nd hand Leaf and Leasing the battery, the cost should come down though as the battery ages.

with a new battery the Leaf will most likely run a very, very long time.

The Leaf will still will still find uses even with a degraded battery.

It won't be that long until Leaf II with more range.

Scottie99

Scottie99 wrote: »

I've be trying to find the Irish renting prices but to avail. Firstly, I'd add 10/20% onto the UK prices because......that's just usually the way it is. Then I'd go from there.

Nissan Ireland don't give people the choice, in Ireland the Leaf is sold with the battery.

The Leaf costs more in the U.K. Going by the highest spec.

Another example, this time driving 10,500 miles a year.

106 PM x 36 payments = € 3,816 over 3 years. Excluding electricity of course.

I really wish I had Irish prices because the Leaf is working out more expensive in the U.K.

The Leaf costs 25,632 in the U.K without battery compared to 26,390 in Ireland with the battery excluding dealer charges.

But going by the U.K price the total cost over 3 years would be 29,448 Euro's.

The cost new with battery is 31,882 Euro's. So it's costing you less + you pay less interest because the cost of the car is lower without the battery.

So going by U.K prices it actually costs less to lease the battery than to buy the battery outright over 3 years and 10,500 miles per year.

Doing such little mileage you probably wouldn't need to lease the battery because you shouldn't have lost much range 31,500 miles. you wouldn't notice it.

If you abuse the battery by fast charging excessively or to the point the battery roasts and you intend to keep the leaf a long time then renting the battery makes a lot of sense, why would you want to own something that will degrade ?

Scottie99

Deleted User wrote: »

Nissan Ireland don't give people the choice, in Ireland the Leaf is sold with the battery.

The Leaf costs more in the U.K. Going by the highest spec.

I know that because I drive one. I was talking about the Renault Zoe battery rental price which was quoted (uk) Add 10/20% to the Uk cost and you get the Irish price.

kdouglas

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Leaf costs 25,632 in the U.K without battery compared to 26,390 in Ireland with the battery excluding dealer charges.

are you sure that UK price is without battery? I was sure I saw UK Leaf for about 14-15k GBP without battery?

Do you really want to own the battery in the first place, especially if it's going to degrade ?

Do you really want to own a combustion engine in the first place if it's going to become less efficient and require costly maintenance?

That's the way I see the battery lease, it's like owning a car but not the engine that powers it? I prefer to own the whole car including battery. If you are going to lease, lease the whole car and get a new one in 3 years. Is anyone really going to keep an EV long enough to change the battery?

Then there's resale value, it would be a nightmare trying to sell an EV with a battery lease in Ireland.

Lastly, regardless of mileage, what about long term cost? Surely the cheaper purchase cost of the vehicle is completely blown out of the water after 6,7...10 years of battery lease payments?

ei9go

Deleted User wrote: »

Another example, this time driving 10,500 miles a year.

106 PM x 36 payments = € 3,816 over 3 years. Excluding electricity of course.

I really wish I had Irish prices because the Leaf is working out more expensive in the U.K.

The Leaf costs 25,632 in the U.K without battery compared to 26,390 in Ireland with the battery excluding dealer charges.

But going by the U.K price the total cost over 3 years would be 29,448 Euro's.

The cost new with battery is 31,882 Euro's. So it's costing you less + you pay less interest because the cost of the car is lower without the battery.

So going by U.K prices it actually costs less to lease the battery than to buy the battery outright over 3 years and 10,500 miles per year.

Doing such little mileage you probably wouldn't need to lease the battery because you shouldn't have lost much range 31,500 miles. you wouldn't notice it.

If you abuse the battery by fast charging excessively or to the point the battery roasts and you intend to keep the leaf a long time then renting the battery makes a lot of sense, why would you want to own something that will degrade ?

Good calculation.

You did forget the most important point.

You never factored in the residual value of the car with and without the leased battery.

Also, this calculation might work for the 1st owner.

Consider the cost of the battery lease to the 2nd or 3rd owner who is buying the car at sub 10k prices.

ei9go

ei9go wrote: »

Good calculation.

You did forget the most important point.

You never factored in the residual value of the car with and without the leased battery.

Also, this calculation might work for the 1st owner.

Consider the cost of the battery lease to the 2nd or 3rd owner who is buying the car at sub 10k prices.

It's impossible to calculate the value with and without battery rental.

It's down to whether the owner wants to own a degraded battery that they can't replace to one they can.

The car itself will still be pretty good after 100,000 miles.

It would take probably 130,000 miles to reach 70 % capacity unless it's really abused with fast charging.

I don't think they should charge full whack as the battery ages.

The obvious question someone should ask is will I abuse fast charging ? And do I intend keeping the car past 80 k miles, then they should rent the battery.

If you drive 6-10 k miles a year or less then you shouldn't need to rent it.

Over 3-4 years it works out about the same if you buy the car with or without battery.

However if you keep the car 7-10 years and you've to pay pm for the battery over this time then it will work out very expensive.

I'll work that out later and to throw a spanner in the works, compare it to a golf tdi.

ei9go

Thats it exactly.

The point is that the person who pays 3k for the car in 7 years time would not be a candidate for 75 pm battery rental.

I think that what will happen the flex Leaf's being sold in the UK is that they will end up being sold used with the battery rental abandoned.

Incidentally, there are a number of 2011 Peugeot Ions for sale in the UK on autotrader with 2 to 3k miles on them for £8000. I think these were never sold in the first place.

Make a great city car or second car at that price.

beazee

gctest50 wrote: »

Mining and transporting the metals for batteries for electric cars is a bit rough too

CO2 emissions all the way from the well to wheels:
Current US gasoline extracting method - top line (430 gCO2/mile)
US Electricity - BEV100 Renewable - in orange - for energy conscious EV owners (~5 gCO2/mile)


Amt of petrol used (BTU/mile) all the way from the well to wheels:
top line - current gas guzzler (4510 BTU/mile)
BEV (21-24 BTU/mile)


Source: http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/13005_well_to_wheels_ghg_oil_ldvs.pdf

@55

OK , I worked out that 5 years and 100K miles = 10,500 Euro's for rental including excess.

The cost of the Leaf is about 28 K out the door with the battery in Ireland and in the U.K the cost is about 6K less without the battery so say the cost of the car is 21K that means the total after 5 years 100K miles = 31.5K or 33,180 with interest.

Over 100K miles based on the EPA rating of 28 Kwh/100 miles for the current model electricity will cost @ night rate, €2500.

Total cost 34,000.

A 1.6 TDI DSG Golf High spec will cost 29,500 but the Leaf comes with a few K worth of extra kit, for instance full climate control costs over 800 on the Golf, parking heater would cost another 1500 Euro's if it were available in Ireland. Rear parking camera 250. LED tail lights 400 Euro's, standard on Leaf. Xenon lights 1500 Euro's, led headlights included in the high spec Leaf.

So already you're talking 4,000 worth of extra kit in the Leaf and it costs about 2000-2500 cheaper than the Golf.

The cost do drive the Golf over 100,000 miles @55 mpg average per tank, some will get less some more = 11,901 Euro's. +29,500 K price =41,104 Euro's.

"Servicing" will cost 100 in the Leaf every 20K miles, for inspections. Cost 200 in the Golf every 10,000 miles ? so the golf will cost 1500 extra for servicing add in a timing belt an extra 450 euro's 1,450. The Golf will go through more brakes, pads.

All this doesn't include interest on a loan which will be less on a leased battery as the cost to buy is about 6K less.

Currently interest is 3.9% for the Golf and 8% for the Leaf, so on 29,500 Golf = 30,650

On the Leaf 21K +8% = 22,680


The Golf works out 7,924 more expensive to do 100,000 miles over 5 years, this is excluding extra maintenance.

So does the battery leasing still sound like such a bad idea ?

Of course the figures will vary once we have proper Irish lease prices and the cost with/without the battery for Zoe, Nissan Ireland do not offer battery leasing, however Nissan offer it so I can't not imaging Nissan Ireland not offering it if you want.

The only other thing is that in order to get a new battery it will have to loose 30% capacity so that would mean a worst case 60 miles turns into 49 miles, still more than enough for most commutes with charging available at work or fast charging.

Lads please keep this on topic about battery leasing. Thanks.

beazee

Deleted User wrote: »

in the case of the Leaf the car actually costs 6,860 Euro's without the battery in the U.K.

I'm sold! Where do I get one?

The complete Nissan leaf battery pack system 24kwhr is about $6500 total including warranty.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/nissan-leaf-lithium-battery-pack-system-94283.html

Half the battery (24 of 48 modules) to be had for $2,500:
http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=product&task=show&cid=4&name=new-11kw-h-battery-block-182v-60ah&Itemid=605

Then I could have LEAF with a new battery for ~€12,000 and no extra monthly battery rental! That's a deal!

Question is why are people so obsessed about battery failing after 100,000 miles or so? Can't see this being an issue with me. I'm quite confident in what's offered on the market.

beazee

beazee wrote: »

I'm sold! Where do I get one?


http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/nissan-leaf-lithium-battery-pack-system-94283.html

Then I could have LEAF with a new battery for ~€12,000 and no extra monthly battery rental! That's a deal!

Question is why are people so obsessed about battery failing after 100,000 miles or so? Can't see this being an issue with me. I'm quite confident in what's offered on the market.

The battery will not fail but degrade slowly over 5-10 years depending on mileage.

They will probably be some thing in the contract that the car can't be sold on without the battery ? how that would work is anyone's guess.

I still say they should offer the option to buy a new battery whenever you wand without leasing. This means owners of the MK 1.5 Leaf could install a brand new battery once the old one becomes useless.

beazee

Deleted User wrote: »

I still say they should offer the option to buy a new battery (...) This means owners of the MK 1.5 Leaf could install a brand new battery once the old one becomes useless.

But as you said - they still have 5-10 years to come up with the offer:

Deleted User wrote: »

The battery will not fail but degrade slowly over 5-10 years depending on mileage.

beazee

beazee wrote: »

But as you said - they still have 5-10 years to come up with the offer:

5 years is only 2 years left for someone who bought a leaf in 2011.

If they do 20 k miles a year.

100K miles could come up in another 2 years for some.

I still doubt at 100 K miles that you'd loose 30% battery capacity.

I think the industry standard of 70% is too low on a 75 mile range car to begin with, with an 85 Kwh Model S 70% would still give you a real 175 miles range.

Dexter1979

Thanks for the calculations. I guess it does make sense for some people.

The actual car will be pretty good after 5 years. What would you check in a 5 year second hand car? The engine, mostly. In an EV this is not the case. You'd check the battery health. With a battery lease this is a non-issue as you know it will be replaced if it's faulty, degrades or (perhaps) they bring a better model on the market that doubles the range.

Time will tell. The batteries in the Leaf are holding up pretty well for most people.

Dexter1979

Dexter1979 wrote: »

Thanks for the calculations. I guess it does make sense for some people.

The actual car will be pretty good after 5 years. What would you check in a 5 year second hand car? The engine, mostly. In an EV this is not the case. You'd check the battery health. With a battery lease this is a non-issue as you know it will be replaced if it's faulty, degrades or (perhaps) they bring a better model on the market that doubles the range.

Time will tell. The batteries in the Leaf are holding up pretty well for most people.

Battery lease would suit higher mileage drivers and for those who will find themselves addicted to fast charging.

Leasing eliminates the risks, why would you want to own something you know will degrade.

If you do low enough miles leasing works out cheaper, and I didn't calculate the savings on interest due to the lower price of the car.

Of course we're still waiting on irish Zoe rental prices.

Nissan Ireland don't offer it, but I'm sure they will if you insist.

Leasing the whole car makes sense too if you don't intent to keep It more than 3 years.

In 3 years you won't likely need a new battery anyway.

It's unlikely there will be a higher capacity battery for the leaf until the MK II comes in 2017/18

Dexter1979

Deleted User wrote: »

It's unlikely there will be a higher capacity battery for the leaf until the MK II comes in 2017/18

I also doubt that Nissan would be able to retrofit the battery of the MK II in the Mk I.x.

I like the Zoe as a car and your calculations make sense. I don't need a larger EV like the Leaf. I am finding it hard to justify the costs of a new Zoe with battery lease against a used Leaf from the UK at around €12k. This would screw up the calculations a bit

Dexter1979

Dexter1979 wrote: »

I also doubt that Nissan would be able to retrofit the battery of the MK II in the Mk I.x.

I like the Zoe as a car and your calculations make sense. I don't need a larger EV like the Leaf. I am finding it hard to justify the costs of a new Zoe with battery lease against a used Leaf from the UK at around €12k. This would screw up the calculations a bit

No Nissan won't offer a higher capacity battery for the current model Leaf, it would be possible but too expensive, + all the battery electrics would need to be changed.

Buying a 2nd hand Leaf makes a lot of sense, but it might be worth while hanging on and getting one already imported to Ireland for about 13-15K Euro's.

It's a lot of hassle making 2 trips to see car, pay deposit, then transfer money then go back and bring it home, praying you'll make it to the ferry on time.

I'd pay 16-17 K for a high spec MK 1.5 Irish leaf with 6.6 Kw charger, but dealers in Ireland won't add the more powerful charger the bloody muppets.

I'd probably pay a few K more to buy it in Ireland and save myself the hassle of making 2 trips to the U.K which will cost + ferry.

You got to install the home evse also.

The thing about Zoe is you can replace the battery, you can't replace the one in the Leaf, Nissan U.S.A now offer a brand new battery for about 5.5K USD. but you might as well rent it at that rate.

There are not many fast a/c chargers for zoe, this is where the Leaf wins imo.

The I3 would be a lot of fun but again, CCS chargers are few.

Dexter1979

Most DC fast chargers along the motor ways in Ireland also have a 43kW AC port. Newer ones have the CCS as well (three plugs). Often when a DC port has a problem the AC side is fine. Really strange. Nissan dealers only have the DC. Zoe would be just fine with the current infrastructure in Ireland. UK is brilliant as well.

ted1

When comparing costs you need to consider the true costs.
In all your figures you forgot to include owners time. That is the extra time required to charge the car on journeys with a distance over 60 miles. Anyone doing 20k a year will more than likely be doing trips like dublin to cork.

My hourly rate is 95 euro an hour if I have to stop off in a service station for 30 mins each way to get a top up. Then the trip is costing an extra 95 euro.

Ted my previous commutes were 20 k miles a year and more just to get to work and back. That was without traveling Dublin to Cork.

Now where I am it's just less than half that, for a few months at least.

A leaf could easily do 20 k miles a year and more with fast charging and work charging.

I'm sure nobody would have trouble getting a loan of an ice for the times an ev won't work, I'm sure someone would gladly drive the ev for a few days.

Remember the leaf could have twice the range or almost if they used a Tesla battery, or almost 4 times the range with the model s 85 kWh, though it is a bigger car, it does show the limitations are mainly cost and not ev tech.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ted my previous commutes were 20 k miles a year and more just to get to work and back. That was without traveling Dublin to Cork.

Now where I am it's just less than half that, for a few months at least.

A leaf could easily do 20 k miles a year and more with fast charging and work charging.

I'm sure nobody would have trouble getting a loan of an ice for the times an ev won't work, I'm sure someone would gladly drive the ev for a few days.

Remember the leaf could have twice the range or almost if they used a Tesla battery, or almost 4 times the range with the model s 85 kWh, though it is a bigger car, it does show the limitations are mainly cost and not ev tech.

Huge fan of tesla, unfortunately my driving pattern would rule out every other EV on the market.

Also needing to borrow a car to go on journeys sounds like an awful lot of hassle and is a clear indication that you ( not specifically you )invested a large amount it money in a product that is not up to doing the job.

KrustyBurger

ted1 wrote: »

Huge fan of tesla, unfortunately my driving pattern would rule out every other EV on the market.

Also needing to borrow a car to go on journeys sounds like an awful lot of hassle and is a clear indication that you ( not specifically you )invested a large amount it money in a product that is not up to doing the job.

It depends.

If the EV is perfectly suited to most of your driving (you decide the %) then borrowing/renting an ice car could make perfect sense. That's where I'm at. An EV would be perfect for 99% of my driving. The other 1% is every 6 weeks for a week-end down the country. Would I mind borrowing/leasing a car for that 1%. No problem! It won't suit everyone though. Re the costs: the fuel savings would make a large dent in those.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

Huge fan of tesla, unfortunately my driving pattern would rule out every other EV on the market.

Also needing to borrow a car to go on journeys sounds like an awful lot of hassle and is a clear indication that you ( not specifically you )invested a large amount it money in a product that is not up to doing the job.

Borrowing a car for me would be no problem, I had to do it before we got the crv.

Now that we have two cars it wouldn't be a problem.

I don't know what to say to you if the 250-280 mile model s range isn't enough with 200 mile top up in 30 mins.

I certainly wouldn't like to see your fuel bills.

Dexter1979

KrustyBurger wrote: »

The other 1% is every 6 weeks for a week-end down the country. Would I mind borrowing/leasing a car for that 1%.

You go somewhere without electricity? Get a granny cable and take the Leaf. Even camp sites have electricity.

If you get one with a 6.6kW AC charger than you should be able to take that anywhere in the country, within reason. I would only need to plan if I were to go abroad. Then charge cards and plugs (France) could be an issue.