Requesting pay when forced to cancel Holiday Leave

Det Somerset

I work as part of a two man technical support team for a company with 100 users. Last week I started two weeks annual leave when it was discovered the other 'man' on the team was handing in a week's notice to take on another job. This meant I had to return to work a week early and cancel a number of personal plans. We are looking to replace the individual quickly but it will not be possible to take another two weeks holidays for the foreseeable future as it will take a number of months before they will be able to perform the job suitably on their own.

Because of the personal inconvenience and inability to quickly reschedule another two week break, I have requested that I am paid a week's wages compensation for this situation. I thought that was fair and given my 15 years of service it would be accepted. However they have said they will give it some consideration and come back to me later this week.

I now fear they will look to take advantage of the situation and get the best outcome for them rather than looking after me. Can anyone advise what the legal position is in such a situation? I would like to know if I have every right to request financial compensation before putting myself in an awkward position. I would honestly prefer to take the two weeks off, but realistically it is impossible for the next few months.

Tow

You should have just stayed on holidays. You bent over backwards for them , and they kicked you up the backside.

Sadderday

you are legally entitled to Annual Leave so make sure you get them days back...

you probably should be compensated but you've learned that once you clock off your unavailable... this isn't your emergency... and to be honest... a company that employs two specifically trained staff members is just pouring money and training into a huge liability. If you both quit tomorrow... they would be f'ecked.

Seems like you should use this opportunity to suggest training a staff member or floater while your at it to give yourself more leeway with AL days and company less open to ... possibly... eventually....... having two positions open... that no-one can actually do.

dixiefly

Sadderday wrote: »

you are legally entitled to Annual Leave so make sure you get them days back...

you probably should be compensated but you've learned that once you clock off your unavailable... this isn't your emergency... and to be honest... a company that employs two specifically trained staff members is just pouring money and training into a huge liability. If you both quit tomorrow... they would be f'ecked.

Seems like you should use this opportunity to suggest training a staff member or floater while your at it to give yourself more leeway with AL days and company less open to ... possibly... eventually....... having two positions open... that no-one can actually do.

You are actually in a pretty strong position as they now see your value to them. Be careful not to overly exploit this position but certainly use it to your gain.

If it was me I would formally make the request for compensation in writing and explain within that exactly what it has cost you (and your family?). Add in a hint that you are the only one that is able to train the new recruit and any management worth their salt will make things good for you.

Sadderday

dixiefly wrote: »

You are actually in a pretty strong position as they now see your value to them. Be careful not to overly exploit this position but certainly use it to your gain.

If it was me I would formally make the request for compensation in writing and explain within that exactly what it has cost you (and your family?). Add in a hint that you are the only one that is able to train the new recruit and any management worth their salt will make things good for you.

Exactly !

shruikan2553

As mentioned above you're in a very good position. Just be careful not to overdo it as you'll become more hastle than you're worth but getting compensation for having to cone back seems fair enough. Might be a good time to see about a salary review.

blindsider

OP - unfortunately, your bargaining position weakened once you cancelled your holidays. I'm sure you did this for the good of the company, but they've taken advantage of you to some extent. OTOH you've safeguarded your job, and the company's future.

(BTW - your co-worker was on a week's notice? Are you on a week's notice also? Is no-one, HR or snr managers, concerned by this?) What if your co-worker's new company rings you in 2 weeks and offers you a job paying €5K more?

Why did your co-worker leave? Was it better money? Closer to home? Bigger company? Who says the next person will remain in the role long-term....?

Did you lose financially by returning to work? Do you have receipts, bookings etc to prove it? If you do, then hold out for re-imbursement.

I'd also be pushing to be appointed as Team Lead for your team - 15 yrs service - committed employee who just gave up holidays....

I'd be asking for a performance Review and developing a plan with your boss so that you are a TL/manager within 6 months on a nice new salary.

What's the jobs market like for your area of expertise?

(Sometimes you need to be a bit mercenary IMO - esp. if a company is taking you for granted. They will almost never offer you a salary increase - you have to fight for it and justify the increase.

Occasionally, the balance of power swings a little in your favour - act wisely and sensibly......

Mrs OBumble

OP, you have my sympathy.

But it may be difficult to get compensation because .. (wait for it) ...

I'm pretty sure that there's a law which says you have to have the opportunity to take two weeks continuous leave within each leave year. Paying you compensation could be seen to imply that they don't intend to allow you to do that, which is illegal.

Now, I don't know if your company will go down that line of thinking. But if they check things with their lawyer, they might.


However as others have said, compensation for actual out-of-pocket expenses is more likely to be a winner. And if they say no to your initial proposal, I'd try that approach.


Also, I would expect them to want to change your contract so that you have to give a month's notice. (Really a week is ridiculous in your sort of situation.) So there might be some negotiations to do on that front too.

seamus

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that there's a law which says you have to have the opportunity to take two weeks continuous leave within each leave year. Paying you compensation could be seen to imply that they don't intend to allow you to do that, which is illegal.

Yes. It's also illegal for a company to give you money in lieu of actual holidays, so asking for compensation instead of taking the rest of your holidays just can't work, though I do understand you were looking for compensation in addition to the leave time you have left. But best to not create any confusion.

Out-of-pocket expenses are definitely something to ask for.

Personally I would be looking for something that's perhaps a little more savoury for an employer. Cash payouts and bonusses I find are things that businesses hate paying, especially in one-off individual cases. I think there's an aspect of, "If he gets it, then we have to give it to everyone" with it.

Maybe instead draw up an agreement with your employer that they will give you an extra five days of holidays, and at the end of the training period of the new employee, you will be permitted to take up to a month off - out of annual leave, i.e. fully paid. This should provide adequate compensation for the cancellation of your holiday and also satisfy your personal need to take a break.

Det Somerset

Thought it best to reply once rather than to individuals to keep the information together if that's ok. Some bullet point responses

• The guy who left on one week's notice was being let go at the end of July as he wasn't working out. As a result we couldn't exactly try and stop him from taking the job offer when he got one despite him agreeing to stay on for another month originally.
• I'm already top of the food chain in my area of the company.
• I've already recently renegotiated a pay increase and gotten about as much as I can realistically expect from them.
• For reasons I don't wish to go into, I'm not in a position to seek an alternative job elsewhere.
• A short break away was the only financial loss I incurred. I've been told they will take care of this, but it's not a significant figure to start with.
• I will get the holidays back, but that wasn't a concern to me anyway as I often have more holidays than I can take per year.

As the other guy wasn't working out, he was unable 'hold the fort' on his own sufficiently enough to allow me to take extended holidays (such as two weeks). As a result since last July I've not been able to take 2 unbroken weeks of holiday leave and have been desperately in need of such a break as there is only so much recovery you can get from taking a series of long weekends and early finishes. It will take a minimum of three months to train in a replacement to a suitable level where I might be able to consider another 2 week break. However this would bring us to the busiest period of year for the company and so realistically it would be December at the earliest before I could take an extended holiday. I don't believe I should be expected to work without a holiday for so long without at least some financial compensation.

To the poster who (correctly) suggested it is technically illegal for a company to pay me instead of offering holidays, I presume the counter point of that argument is they legally have to let me take the holidays. However what if both sides agree that it isn't possible to take holidays this year, which essentially is the case here? I'm not happy about not being able to take the holidays but this is a highly unusual series of circumstances. I'm prepared to do the right thing for the company, but just want to get financially compensated. I get the impression they want to try to avoid this but surely they have to do something I agree to if I am unable to take 2 weeks holidays anytime soon?

Thank you to all those who have offered their advice and knowledge so far.

Ray Palmer

Det Somerset wrote: »

However what if both sides agree that it isn't possible to take holidays this year, which essentially is the case here?

No it isn't allowed even if the parties agree. The whole reason for the law coming in was a man didn't take his holidays in agreement with the company he worked for. If I recall correctly he had a nervous break down after not take any holidays in 10 years.

The company has to make sure you take 2 weeks off uninterrupted each year. You don't even need to make a complaint for them to be fined for this. Very poor HR handling if they aren't aware of this. They have a duty of care to you whether you agree or not.

Det Somerset

Ray Palmer wrote: »

No it isn't allowed even if the parties agree. The whole reason for the law coming in was a man didn't take his holidays in agreement with the company he worked for. If I recall correctly he had a nervous break down after not take any holidays in 10 years.

The company has to make sure you take 2 weeks off uninterrupted each year. You don't even need to make a complaint for them to be fined for this. Very poor HR handling if they aren't aware of this. They have a duty of care to you whether you agree or not.

Thanks for this. Could you elaborate regarding the statement you made about '2 weeks each year'? For example our company closes for 10 days at xmas (5 of which are enforced holiday leave for all staff). Last year I took an extra five days holidays which meant I was off for 18 days (if public hols are included). Does this qualify as my 'two weeks uninterrupted' even though I only took a week away from actual business hrs?

Secondly does the 'each year' cover the calendar year any 12 month period?

Sadderday

Sorry.....


But not everyone is entitled to (or is made take) 2 consecutive weeks a year.

That depends on the company. Law states min 20 days .... which you work out with your employer to suit you or your employer assigns your AL according to their business needs.

You need to be in a company minimum 8 months in order to avail of a two consecutive week holiday (or the company may oblige).

So, unless it states in your contract that you must take two weeks... you could take 20 fridays off... if your company agrees....

Det Somerset

Sadderday wrote: »

Sorry.....


But not everyone is entitled to (or is made take) 2 consecutive weeks a year.

That depends on the company. Law states min 20 days .... which you work out with your employer to suit you or your employer assigns your AL according to their business needs.

You need to be in a company minimum 8 months in order to avail of a two consecutive week holiday (or the company may oblige).

So, unless it states in your contract that you must take two weeks... you could take 20 fridays off... if your company agrees....

Oh ok, I thought 2 weeks unbroken was required by law for all full time employment. I'm entitled to 20 days and due to overtime I usually qualify for 30 days plus. However I rarely take more than 25 days due to the importance of my role.

It sounds like I'm sh** out of luck then. So long as I take 20 days during the year they have no legal requirement towards me

Sadderday

Det Somerset wrote: »

Oh ok, I thought 2 weeks unbroken was required by law for all full time employment. I'm entitled to 20 days and due to overtime I usually qualify for 30 days plus. However I rarely take more than 25 days due to the importance of my role.

It sounds like I'm sh** out of luck then. So long as I take 20 days during the year they have no legal requirement towards me

Not saying that!, you have to take 20 days. The extra official days your entitled to... can be paid to you instead.

Your 20 days - You can request to take when you want them or else your company allocates a week here and there or two weeks in summer and two in winter - whatever it may be... but they do have a responsibility to monitor the leave so that its reasonably spaced out.

If you took your 20 days in one go, you would have to work 11 months straight - no break... posing a threat to your health and well being.

So, depending on how long they expect you to go without a break... you do have a point.

Check your contract to see if the 2 week clause is in it !

Sadderday

GIZ A JOB

spurious

They haven't said no yet, so don't flap until you have to.

Ray Palmer

Sadderday wrote: »

Sorry.....


But not everyone is entitled to (or is made take) 2 consecutive weeks a year.

That depends on the company. Law states min 20 days .... which you work out with your employer to suit you or your employer assigns your AL according to their business needs.

You need to be in a company minimum 8 months in order to avail of a two consecutive week holiday (or the company may oblige).

So, unless it states in your contract that you must take two weeks... you could take 20 fridays off... if your company agrees....

No. The law is very clear and has been in place for some time. A full time employee must take two consecutive two weeks off no matter what. EU directive brought in in 1997
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0020/sec0019.html#sec19

See section 3. Specifically telling you that you can negotiate out of it.

If a company closes down for two weeks and you get your time then I think that is acceptable. I don't think you have the right to insist on it being of your choosing

Mrs OBumble

Det Somerset wrote: »

For example our company closes for 10 days at xmas (5 of which are enforced holiday leave for all staff). Last year I took an extra five days holidays which meant I was off for 18 days (if public hols are included). Does this qualify as my 'two weeks uninterrupted' even though I only took a week away from actual business hrs?

I believe it does.

Based on this: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0020/sec0019.html#sec19

The statement about "you could take 20 Fridays off, provided the company agrees" is not strictly true. Both you and the company need to agree.

And for audit and / or health and safety reasons, many companies actually insist on two week continuous, whether you want it or not.

(as always - this is not legal advice. If you want that, consult a lawyer.)

Det Somerset wrote: »

Secondly does the 'each year' cover the calendar year any 12 month period?

AFAIK it covers your company's annual leave year, whenever that runs.

Shelflife

They are obliged to facilitate the taking of your full complement of holidays. If after reasonable notice given by yourself they dont facilitate you then they are in breach of the legislation.

You seem to be a reasonable man and accept that its an unusual set of circumstances and want to do the right thing by everyone. The company need to match this and come to an agreement with you.

If you "decided" not to take any extended break this year and carry over your holidays im sure that the company would come to an agreement with you, maybe an expenses paid trip to investigate a rivet at the foot of the Eiffel Tower that the company might use in the future or something similar.

If on the other hand the company are unreasonable then you can simple force their hand and insist that you want to take all of your annual leave allowance that you are entitled to.

Its up to the company to organise themselves so that staff can take their leave, its not your problem.

Sit down, bargain,cajole before you issue any ultimatums. You are in a strong position, its in the companys interest to look after you in this situation and look after you so that you dont wear yourself out either.

therecklessone

Just for clarity's sake...

The Organisation of Working Time Act 1997

Part III Section 19 (3)

(3) The annual leave of an employee who works 8 or more months in a leave year shall, subject to the provisions of any employment regulation order, registered employment agreement, collective agreement or any agreement between the employee and his or her employer, include an unbroken period of 2 weeks.

So the requirement for an unbroken two weeks is not absolute, but any derogation from that must be by mutual agreement.

However, the employer must take into inter alia account Section 20 (a):

(a) to the employer taking into account—

(i) the need for the employee to reconcile work and any family responsibilities,

(ii) the opportunities for rest and recreation available to the employee,

which from your account seems difficult to achieve.

The only mention I can see of payment in lieu of holidays not granted is in Section 23 which deals with payment on cessation of employment.

You really need to get this sorted, not just for the recent curtailment of your holiday but for future occasions as well.

Best of luck.

Det Somerset

Haven't time to respond to all posts individually but wanted to say thank you to everyone who has responded here as it's all been very helpful and informative. I fully intend standing my ground, but I had hoped I might have a legal right to claim financial compensation which would put me in a stronger position. I have greater clarity now which will help me in the discussion later this week so again thanks to all who contributed here.

I'll pop back with an update on whether I was triumphant or screwed over just so you can see how I got on

Ray Palmer

therecklessone wrote: »

So the requirement for an unbroken two weeks is not absolute, but any derogation from that must be by mutual agreement.

However, the employer must take into inter alia account Section 20 (a):



.

How I read it and the HR companies read it is you include agreements but it must include 2 weeks unbroken leave. You are taking the comas as OR but if you read it again you see the comas are AND.

therecklessone

Ray Palmer wrote: »

How I read it and the HR companies read it is you include agreements but it must include 2 weeks unbroken leave. You are taking the comas as OR but if you read it again you see the comas are AND.

That doesn't make any sense Ray. If the requirement is to take a compulsory 2 weeks unbroken leave then the subsection would not be subject to any other agreement/process, but as you can see above it may be.

Furthermore: Explanatory Booklet on Holidays and Public Holidays for Employers and Employees - Issued by the Department of Enterprise Trade and Employment

Must an employee take an unbroken 2 week’s holidays?

Following 8 months work, the employee is entitled to an unbroken period of 2 weeks which may include one or more public holidays. An employment regulation order, registered employment agreement, collective agreement or any other agreement between the employer and employee may stipulate an arrangement which varies this provision.

Det Somerset

Ok so I had the conversation with the HR guy today. Wasn't as bad as I thought it might be but I think my original 'putting my foot down' tone and attitude last week may have had the desired effect.

Short version is they don't want to pay me an extra week's salary, but they do recognise the personal sacrifice I've had to make and want to 'reward' my commitment to the company. To break it down even further, if they pay me it costs them more on taxes, however if they send me and the wife off on a weekend away they can put that down as expenses and it costs them a lot less despite the same 'end value' to me.

I appreciated the frank dialogue and the fact they recognise they do 'owe' me. I may have accepted their offer another year, but money is tight at the moment so I have requested they come up with another offer which sees cash go into my account. They have yet to come back to me. Worst case scenario I have to accept their 'business trip' which is better than nothing I guess, but fingers crossed they'll cook the books in some other way which will see me get paid

Thanks again to all who gave their helpful advice and opinions

Sadderday

fair play to ya, if you don't look out for yourself no-one else will!

Det Somerset

Final update ...

Discussions dragged on a bit over the last couple of weeks (ironically as some staff were taking holidays) but I got confirmation yesterday that they will allow me to put through three bogus expense claims in the coming weeks which would equate a total equal to a week's wages after tax.

Not impressed with the process and length of time this took but I'm happy with the outcome and glad I dug my heels in.

Cheers guys!