Could there be a teacher shortage in the future?

endakenny

Many newly-qualified teachers have emigrated because of inability to find permanent jobs in Ireland. Furthermore, many students might be unwilling to pursue a career in teaching because of the lack of career opportunities and the workload imposed both by the cutbacks and the Croke Park and Haddington Road Agreements.

All of the above factors could create a teacher shortage when the economy improves.

It's unlikely that many of the teachers who have emigrated will return when the economy improves because the working conditions - and the weather - are much better in Australia and Dubai than in Ireland.

PcAngel

Highly unlikely. A certain college keeps accepting students and the market is seriously overloaded at the moment.

evolving_doors

teacher these days means 'a bunch of subjects that add up to 22hrs'

If there is a shortage and the ptr changes it just means the part timers will be bumped up hours first!

TheDriver

I advertised few jobs lately, fairly high hours for starters and I must say both number and quality as a whole compared to boom times is disappointing. Of course there are some great candidates but not as many as I expected. Hence I tend to agree with OP.

chippers

endakenny wrote: »

It's unlikely that many of the teachers who have emigrated will return when the economy improves because the working conditions - and the weather - are much better in Australia and Dubai than in Ireland.

Most teachers have emigrated to the UK and I reckon the majority have full intentions on returning back to Ireland once they have gained some experience.

Taxburden carrier

There's a few in Leinster House who could be reassigned

evolving_doors

Taxburden carrier wrote: »

There's a few in Leinster House who could be reassigned

He's down with the kids anyways... look at those Gangsta hand signs..

chippers

TheDriver wrote: »

I advertised few jobs lately, fairly high hours for starters and I must say both number and quality as a whole compared to boom times is disappointing. Of course there are some great candidates but not as many as I expected. Hence I tend to agree with OP.

Out of interest could you divulge how many applicants you had for the posts? No problem if you can't. I'm just genuinely interested to know what the competition is like.

Peter Flynt

There are a number of factors which will definitely see teaching jobs becoming freely available in the future:

1 - Pay
Let's start with the obvious. Most teachers cannot afford to work for the dole plus a little bit extra which is what occurring. The Labour Party launched an astonishing attack on the youth of Ireland as soon as they obtained power. The consequences will affect all parts of society.

2 - Terms & Conditions of Employment
Croke Park & Haddington Road are for life. These "agreements" have added an extra months workload to the teacher and all of it unpaid. It is true that most starting new teachers won't remember a time before the unions sold out their members but this won't make them any less exhausted. New teachers are being screwed by management in most schools - the cutbacks (e.g. no replacement of B posts) mean that P & DPs are always begging/threatening new teachers.

The possibility of new "agreements" should not be ruled out from 2016. Indeed most of the changes that have occurred (reduced sick pay, the new JCSA) are just adding to the misery.

3 - The JCSA
The ASTI will do what they always do - jump up and down and whinge . . . and then tell their members "Well this is the way it's going" just like they sold out their younger members. But the JCSA will be brought in and with it a substantial increase in the workload of teachers.

4 - Poor Morale
Morale in the profession is at an all time low. That won't increase anytime soon.

5 - Extending the H.Dip to a 2 year course
Absolute barmy decision designed by third level colleges in cohort with the useless Teaching Council to keep money flowing into the Education Departments of third level institutions. The cost of doing such a course will be approximately 10,000 plus. . . Not worth the time or money.

6 - Increasing indiscipline in schools with Ministers who don't care.
Some schools have serious discipline issues with management paralysed to do anything about seriously disruptive students ("Section 29").

7 - The culture of the "teacher is always responsible"

Crazyteacher

What do you mean by quality thedriver? Where you expecting people with more experience ? Was the quality of their application not up to scratch?

TheDriver wrote: »

I advertised few jobs lately, fairly high hours for starters and I must say both number and quality as a whole compared to boom times is disappointing. Of course there are some great candidates but not as many as I expected. Hence I tend to agree with OP.

endakenny

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The ASTI will do what they always do - jump up and down and whinge . . . and then tell their members "Well this is the way it's going" just like they sold out their younger members. But the JCSA will be brought in and with it a substantial increase in the workload of teachers.

If the members of both the ASTI and the TUI refuse to assess their pupils then the JCSA won't work.

HRA is not a ban on industrial action.

gaiscioch

Peter Flynt wrote: »

5 - Extending the H.Dip to a 2 year course
Absolute barmy decision designed by third level colleges in cohort with the useless Teaching Council to keep money flowing into the Education Departments of third level institutions. The cost of doing such a course will be approximately 10,000 plus. . . Not worth the time or money.

Couldn't agree more. Once again the Minister for Education confirms he is more concerned with getting students to fund university education departments (and save his department millions), than he is with reforming the entire sorry mess that is the teacher training system. In fact, by this stunt he's reinforcing the very system which is the central reason for thousands of teachers not having full hours: the deliberate flooding of the profession with qualified, but largely unneeded, teachers in order to subvent universities and provide the conditions for schools to extract more productivity from new, fearful, teachers. An underclass of cheap, dispensable teaching labour has been created in the teaching profession, and this stunt by Quinn is reinforcing this underclass. With such hostility to the very section of society it professes to defend, the marginalised, the Labour Party deserves to be destroyed.

It's incredible that the unions continue to refuse to make a stand on this most fundamental systemic cause of poor conditions for the thousands of teachers who are not on full hours. I have no problem with the entire system being changed and the emphasis put on teaching first and foremost. But extending the training to two years, and increasing costs accordingly for students, while doing absolutely nothing to tackle the oversupply created by the same system is a pisstake, an unapologetic "teacher training will continue to be a money-making racket for the universities" statement from this Labour Party Minister for Education.

evolving_doors

Peter Flynt wrote: »

.....
New teachers are being screwed by management in most schools - the cutbacks (e.g. no replacement of B posts) mean that P & DPs are always begging/threatening new teachers.

MOD WARNING:

Please don't make sweeping statements about management in most schools (maybe it is true but you would have to have first hand knowledge of at least 360 of them (in secondary anyway))... also the frequency adverb is unsubstantiated and as such statistically/scientifically unsound.

Member has been warned

Do not refer to this post

TheDriver

Crazyteacher wrote: »

What do you mean by quality thedriver? Where you expecting people with more experience ? Was the quality of their application not up to scratch?

By quality, there are a number of factors which are noticeable compared to a number of years ago.
Teacher applying for say a French job. Previously you would have gotten a majority of 2.1 degrees or higher and a leaving cert result of b1 or higher. Nowadays, you get a lot of 2.2 degrees and people getting c2 in their own leaving French.
A lot of 1 subject applications. There is a continuing issue on this forum about teachers not being on full hours but if you only have 1 subject, its hard to timetable you for full hours.
Application forms and CVs are full of errors and mistakes which is a bad 1st impression. People don't proof read their applications or CVs.
The list goes on and on.........

Crazyteacher

I can't understand how people send applications with mistakes. That's ridiculous. Not much they can do about the 2.2 degrees now or the low result in their own leaving cert. I suppose the criteria for studying that subject at 3rd level should be increased so they'll choose an arts subject area they might be better at. Do you consider post qualification experience as a day to day sub to be a quality experience?

Peter Flynt

TheDriver wrote: »

By quality, there are a number of factors which are noticeable compared to a number of years ago.
Teacher applying for say a French job. Previously you would have gotten a majority of 2.1 degrees or higher and a leaving cert result of b1 or higher. Nowadays, you get a lot of 2.2 degrees and people getting c2 in their own leaving French.
A lot of 1 subject applications. There is a continuing issue on this forum about teachers not being on full hours but if you only have 1 subject, its hard to timetable you for full hours.
Application forms and CVs are full of errors and mistakes which is a bad 1st impression. People don't proof read their applications or CVs.
The list goes on and on.........

If you're judging the potential quality of a teacher on the class of their degree then you shouldn't be on the panel.

Personally I'd be looking at their experience and their H.Dip result with, in particular, the grade they got on their teaching practice.

My OH constantly does interviews for a major American multinational and recently pointed out the number of interviews where the candidate has a first and it quickly becomes apparent that they don't really have a clue.

Having stated that there's no excuse for errors on a CV.

Crazyteacher

I wouldn't even look at the hdip result if I were schools, many get placement in their own secondary schools and get nice groups to teach and don't really experience teaching a challenging group. They can get the first on TP but then have to face in to a more challenging class and not be fit for it.

spurious

I can second what TheDriver says about applications having seen the state of some of the ones came into our place last year.

Seriously, not knowing where to place an address on an envelope and applying for a job teaching English? My LCA students would have done it properly.

Other clangers -
name and/or address of school spelled incorrectly
wrong name of Principal
'collage' - I cannot begin to think how anyone could excuse that
letter addressed to the wrong person
green biro

It was scary to see.

As a rough guideline, given where our school was, we looked for people who had experience in fairly similar places.

Peter Flynt

Crazyteacher wrote: »

I wouldn't even look at the hdip result if I were schools, many get placement in their own secondary schools and get nice groups to teach and don't really experience teaching a challenging group. They can get the first on TP but then have to face in to a more challenging class and not be fit for it.

There's not a shred of evidence to suggest that the order of the quality of a teacher goes as follows:

1.1 > 2.1 > 2.2 > 3 > Pass

Teaching is not really a normal job and the demands placed on a young unqualified teacher are immense to the extent that it is very difficult for any manager to come to a conclusion as to who is a better teacher than someone else.

You can only attempt to try and bring out their personality during the interview. I know of a school where the Principal gets the applicant to stand in front of the interview panel and get them to "teach a topic" for a while.

Crazyteacher

I think they do that in Meath VEC . It's a brilliant idea .

Peter Flynt

Crazyteacher wrote: »

I think they do that in Meath VEC . It's a brilliant idea .

In the UK it's quite common for interviews to occur during an actual class with students in the class.

The panel sit at the back and watch as an applicant teaches a class.

Obviously this cannot occur during the summer months.

I'm not sure how I'd feel about that though.

aunt aggie

I wouldnt mind the idea of teaching a topic as part of the interview process as long as I had a head up about it first.

The Driver, do interview panels really look at leaving cert results of applicants?!? My teaching subjects were also my worst results at LC because I just didnt put in the same level of work to the subjects I found easy. Slightly concerned that schools would look back on some exams I did almost ten years ago as an estimation of my ability.

Crazyteacher

aunt aggie wrote: »

I wouldnt mind the idea of teaching a topic as part of the interview process as long as I had a head up about it first.

The Driver, do interview panels really look at leaving cert results of applicants?!? My teaching subjects were also my worst results at LC because I just didnt put in the same level of work to the subjects I found easy. Slightly concerned that schools would look back on some exams I did almost ten years ago as an estimation of my ability.

I see it's getting more common to ask for l cert results. Another way of whittling down applicants. Sad really , I for one didn't have a clue what I was doing at leaving cert.

seavill

Crazyteacher wrote: »

I wouldn't even look at the hdip result if I were schools, many get placement in their own secondary schools and get nice groups to teach and don't really experience teaching a challenging group. They can get the first on TP but then have to face in to a more challenging class and not be fit for it.

This is a great point about teaching practice. I had someone this year get top marks in her tp.
I was never asked my opinion despite bring in the back of the class far more often than the inspectors.
There is not a hope I would employ her next year if I were our principal with an open slot

Boober Fraggle

Whatever about asking for leaving cert results, I have recently heard of a number of schools asking teachers to sit a leaving cert higher level paper as part of their interview. An A1 was expected in each case from the candidates.

I think results have their place in finding out about a person's work ethic. I don't think it's the be all and end all, but I do think it has to be part of the process. Teaching practice results are harmless though, seeing someone with one class on 5 occasions will tell you very little about their ability as a teacher.

Crazyteacher

Where they told in advance? I heard of a school that this too. They arrived expecting just to be interviewed and instead were given an exam paper and then interviewed . I can imagine people would have went through with it , I don't think I would.

Boober Fraggle

In one school they were, and in the other they were told about it at the interview.

aunt aggie

Could you say what part of the country or type of school has begun to give exam papers as part of the interview process?

I had the experience of working through an A level paper while interviewing for a school in England. As it happened two teachers were employed after this process rather than one, myself included. Few months later the exam papers reappear and it turns out I got a better result than the other teacher who was also successful in that particular interview. Very chuffed with myself as I wasn't as familiar with the course as other applicants and I'd apparently gotten the top marks. Came back half hour later and was told we had in fact gotten the exact same mark.

This kind of process doesn't tell interview panels anything about someones teaching ability but it can lead to tensions within departments. I'd much prefer to teach a topic as part of the interview process.

Crazyteacher

It's testing subject knowledge I think . Definitely not the ability to teach.

Millem

Maybe it depends on the school or the location but I know in my own school there were hundreds of applications for the 3 jobs we advertised (this summer). We have people already on the staff who will more than likely get these jobs (fingers crossed for them), so I presume if anyone did some investigation this may put them off applying. My school doesn't make you teach a topic however a nearby school have started to do this. The vice p told me the number of applications again was in the hundreds and the job is privately paid!!!! In one of the new schools (that is opening up in sept) I heard there was over 1600 applications!!

spurious

Millem wrote: »

In one of the new schools (that is opening up in sept) I heard there was over 1600 applications!!

..and still they herd them onto the Teaching qualification courses, all thinking 'Oh there will be jobs by the time I get out'. A scandal really.

Millem

spurious wrote: »

..and still they herd them onto the Teaching qualification courses, all thinking 'Oh there will be jobs by the time I get out'. A scandal really.

I hear you!

gaiscioch

wrote:

The hdip isn't easy to get admitted to at all. People have to have a high standard to get on to the course. Surely this should be proof enough of their academic ability. Making them sit an exam at interview is beyond ridiculous . There are other ways of testing knowledge at interview, "how would you teach x to third years". Teachers have worked hard for their qualifications and should be treated as equals .

I disagree; I had ten more points than I needed. Despite all the hype, it was neither hard to get into, nor academically challenging when in it. At the time, I only had a single teaching subject, and that subject wasn't even one of the three compulsory ones. Clearly, I was academically solid but I was never tested for my emotional intelligence, my interpersonal skills, or any of those abilities which are useful in teaching people, as opposed to teaching a subject.

I shouldn't have been allowed in but I was because the entry criteria for teacher training are designed to ensure as many fee-paying students as possible while keeping a veneer of "difficulty" about the course -- a veneer ably propagated by legions of drama queens freaking out each year and devious male teachers in the background smirking at the potential personal benefits to be derived from these verbal "oh my God, it's like the most difficult thing ever, like" comments on the teacher training course.

As said above, it is an absolute scandal that such a system designed entirely - there's not even a nod to creating a system which will meet demands for particular subjects and, say, adjusting points according to demand for teachers of specific subjects - to finance universities continues under the guise of being designed to train teachers. The Teaching Council, it seems, has a mandate to regulate all aspects of teaching except the number of people who can enter the profession.

There must be votes from among the army of underemployed and unemployed teachers, and their families, for any politician who will make an issue out of this. Alternatively, we could get a petition going for a centralised teacher recruitment and training system à la An Garda Síochána and the Garda College in Templemore.

Peter Flynt

Powerhouse wrote: »

It is true to say that teaching is not exactly a business which contains academic high-flyers.

According to the Minister:

We need to continue to ensure that most entrants to Initial Teacher Education come from the top 15% of all Leaving Cert students.

https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Speeches/2014-Speeches/SP2014-04-22.html

Powerhouse

Peter Flynt wrote: »

According to the Minister:

https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Speeches/2014-Speeches/SP2014-04-22.html

Your link relates to Primary teaching. I was talking about Post-Primary, and this discussion generally has related, as I interpret it anyway, to Post-Primary teaching.

It was possible to do an Arts degree in this country last year with 300 points. It was possible about four years ago to do a Science degree with the same. Obviously those are minimum scores and there are many brilliant students with huge points doing such courses but there's no doubt that there is huge mediocrity going into/attempting to go into teaching because they will achieve little else and a teaching qualificaton is relatively easily attainable. And the advent of Hibernia put the tin hat on it altogether. At this stage you'd need a fairly dire Primary degree to not be able to do some version of a teaching qualification.

It is, of course, a tangential point to this discussion but to say that 'people have to have a high standard to get on to the course' is not necessarily the case - depending of course on what you call a high standard. In 2013 it was possible to do the PME in almost any Irish university without even a 2.1 Primary degree. And at least one of the colleges had a scarily low points threshold for Business teachers - a decent pass degree (or third-class honours as some call it these days) was enough (assuming my cursory reading of the points is correct). Now I realise that these are minimum points requirements and are demand-driven but the barriers to entry are almost non-existent academically at the moment.

That said, the original point stands - that degree performance should give a decent indication of someone's grasp of a subject. Getting them to sit an LC paper as part of an interview is bearded lady territory and not exactly the greatest endorsement of school authorities ability to rely on their own judgement in assessing a potential teacher in the traditional manner. If part of their job were to sit LC papers than fair enough measure that, but it's not.

TimeToShine

Absolutely no chance there will be a shortage. Sure a teaching job is a mere H.Dip away for plenty of ladies and gentlemen with degrees. A whiff of a shortage will get a bunch of people hopping on the train.

Peter Flynt

Powerhouse wrote: »

Your link relates to Primary teaching. I was talking about Post-Primary, and this discussion generally has related, as I interpret it anyway, to Post-Primary teaching.

It was possible to do an Arts degree in this country last year with 300 points. It was possible about four years ago to do a Science degree with the same. Obviously those are minimum scores and there are many brilliant students with huge points doing such courses but there's no doubt that there is huge mediocrity going into/attempting to go into teaching because they will achieve little else and a teaching qualificaton is relatively easily attainable. And the advent of Hibernia put the tin hat on it altogether. At this stage you'd need a fairly dire Primary degree to not be able to do some version of a teaching qualification.

It is, of course, a tangential point to this discussion but to say that 'people have to have a high standard to get on to the course' is not necessarily the case - depending of course on what you call a high standard. In 2013 it was possible to do the PME in almost any Irish university without even a 2.1 Primary degree. And at least one of the colleges had a scarily low points threshold for Business teachers - a decent pass degree (or third-class honours as some call it these days) was enough (assuming my cursory reading of the points is correct). Now I realise that these are minimum points requirements and are demand-driven but the barriers to entry are almost non-existent academically at the moment.

That said, the original point stands - that degree performance should give a decent indication of someone's grasp of a subject. Getting them to sit an LC paper as part of an interview is bearded lady territory and not exactly the greatest endorsement of school authorities ability to rely on their own judgement in assessing a potential teacher in the traditional manner. If part of their job were to sit LC papers than fair enough measure that, but it's not.

I'm afraid you're talking absolute nonsense.

If you knew anything about how those who apply to get on the H.Dip course you'd know that a points system has been used and operated by the CAO based on the class or higher of the applications qualifications. I know people who interview and, generally, they get people with Masters in all disciplines.

Degree performance does not give an indication of someone's grasp of a subject or, more importantly, THEIR ABILITY TO TEACH.

It's possible to do an Arts degree with 300 points? - So what?

Powerhouse

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I'm afraid you're talking absolute nonsense.

If you knew anything about how those who apply to get on the H.Dip course you'd know that a points system has been used and operated by the CAO based on the class or higher of the applications qualifications. I know people who interview and, generally, they get people with Masters in all disciplines.

Degree performance does not give an indication of someone's grasp of a subject or, more importantly, THEIR ABILITY TO TEACH.

It's possible to do an Arts degree with 300 points? - So what?

I'm afraid you're talking absolute nonsense.

If you knew anything about how those who apply to get on the H.Dip course you'd know that a points system has been used and operated by the CAO based on the class or higher of the applications qualifications. I know people who interview and, generally, they get people with Masters in all disciplines.

Absolute nonsense doesn't come into it. The points required for the PME in the various colleges is quite transparent and available on the PAC website. It shows that people are getting into teaching with 2.2 degrees and less. That's not my opinion - that's demonstrable fact. And pointin out that people have a Master's means Jack quite frankly - a veritable industry had grown up around Masters' degrees in recent years in order to give people with poor Primary degrees a leg up to apply for teaching. It does not necessarily imply a higher standard of applicant. Sometimes in fact quite the opposite as those with higher Primary degrees are not forced down the Master's route immediately. (Incidentally how on earth could you think I don't know how teaching candidates are selected through the PAC, especially when I referenced it in an earlier post?!)

Degree performance does not give an indication of someone's grasp of a subject or, more importantly, THEIR ABILITY TO TEACH.

So someone who has, say, a 1.1 does not necessarily have a better grasp of a subject than someone getting a 2.2? You sure about that?

I never said anything about anyone's ability to teach. That's a separate matter, to be assessed separately. Which presumably is what the average degree course does not include as assessment of one's ability to teach the topic.

It's possible to do an Arts degree with 300 points? - So what?

So.........people of very average academic capacity can do an Arts degree, and then potentially move into teaching. What other 'profession' could that be said about? I'd have thought the answer to the 'so what?' you raise was crystal clear. Like I said it's not a business full of academic high flyers. The academic requirements both at degree level and PME level are transparent and clearly show this.

Peter Flynt

Powerhouse wrote: »

Absolute nonsense doesn't come into it. The points required for the PME in the various colleges is quite transparent and available on the PAC website. It shows that people are getting into teaching with 2.2 degrees and less. That's not my opinion - that's demonstrable fact. And pointin out that people have a Master's means Jack quite frankly - a veritable industry had grown up around Masters' degrees in recent years in order to give people with poor Primary degrees a leg up to apply for teaching. It does not necessarily imply a higher standard of applicant. Sometimes in fact quite the opposite as those with higher Primary degrees are not forced down the Master's route immediately. (Incidentally how on earth could you think I don't know how teaching candidates are selected through the PAC, especially when I referenced it in an earlier post?!)

So what if they have a 2.2? They're qualified to do the job as long as they have their H.Dip.Ed.

You're basically, it seems, contradicting yourself by then going on to discuss the "industry" around having a Masters.

So someone who has, say, a 1.1 does not necessarily have a better grasp of a subject than someone getting a 2.2? You sure about that?

100% sure. . . The highest level they'll teach is Leaving Certificate Higher Level in their subject. Grasp of a subject requires knowing the ins and outs of the system, the marking schemes, having marked for the SEC and general experience. . . Not getting a higher class of degree

I never said anything about anyone's ability to teach. That's a separate matter, to be assessed separately. Which presumably is what the average degree course does not include as assessment of one's ability to teach the topic.

Except those courses which are geared towards teaching only.

So.........people of very average academic capacity can do an Arts degree, and then potentially move into teaching.

Academic capacity is not judged by how someone got on in their Leaving Certificate.

What other 'profession' could that be said about? I'd have thought the answer to the 'so what?' you raise was crystal clear. Like I said it's not a business full of academic high flyers. The academic requirements both at degree level and PME level are transparent and clearly show this.

No they do not. . . You're argument is nonsense - that you think the top 15% of Leaving Certificate candidates comprise primary teachers only and not secondary.

audi12

most people seem to want to be a teacher because of holidays they get does any teacher actually like there job it must be the most boring job ever

ahahah

audi12 wrote: »

most people seem to want to be a teacher because of holidays they get does any teacher actually like there job it must be the most boring job ever

Boring? Are you serious? It's the least boring job ever. And the holidays are a great perk but we need them. Most teachers don't get paid for holidays for years fyi.

chippers

audi12 wrote: »

most people seem to want to be a teacher because of holidays they get does any teacher actually like there job it must be the most boring job ever

troll much?

TimeToShine

audi12 wrote: »

most people seem to want to be a teacher because of holidays they get does any teacher actually like there job it must be the most boring job ever

Teaching is a nightmare for people trying to break into the profession (read: recent graduates) but the cushiest job in the world for anyone who has been in for the past few years. No burden of proof on the teachers whatsoever, dynamic changing environment every year with different students, 180 days off a year...living the dream pretty much.

Before I get slated I acknowledged that it is a tough, tough business for young people, the least you could do in turn is concede that it's a bit of a joke for the more senior teachers. There are 27/28 year olds now who walked into jobs 6 years ago that are set for life, meanwhile recent grads are scraping the bottom of the barrel to get a few hours a week to build up the required experience. Madness.

chippers

TimeToShine wrote: »

Teaching is a nightmare for people trying to break into the profession (read: recent graduates) but the cushiest job in the world for anyone who has been in for the past few years. No burden of proof on the teachers whatsoever, dynamic changing environment every year with different students, 180 days off a year...living the dream pretty much.

Before I get slated I acknowledged that it is a tough, tough business for young people, the least you could do in turn is concede that it's a bit of a joke for the more senior teachers. There are 27/28 year olds now who walked into jobs 6 years ago that are set for life, meanwhile recent grads are scraping the bottom of the barrel to get a few hours a week to build up the required experience. Madness.

That's great. What's your opinion on whether there will be a teacher shortage in the future?

TimeToShine

chippers wrote: »

That's great. What's your opinion on whether there will be a teacher shortage in the future?

Posted earlier:

TimeToShine wrote: »

Absolutely no chance there will be a shortage. Sure a teaching job is a mere H.Dip away for plenty of ladies and gentlemen with degrees. A whiff of a shortage will get a bunch of people hopping on the train.

Peter Flynt

TimeToShine wrote: »

Absolutely no chance there will be a shortage. Sure a teaching job is a mere H.Dip away for plenty of ladies and gentlemen with degrees. A whiff of a shortage will get a bunch of people hopping on the train.

It's 2 years + 10K to do the H.Dip now.

After that the teacher is still not considered qualified until 300 hours post graduate experience are clocked up

Powerhouse

Peter Flynt wrote: »

So what if they have a 2.2? They're qualified to do the job as long as they have their H.Dip.Ed.

This is irrelevant. Nobody is questioning the reality that a teacher with the PME is a qualified teachers. I am merely suggesting that the job features a lot of academic medicority. And until some abstract means by which to judge academic ability is provided we must assume degree results to be a fair and reasonable objective guide. You'll always have the person who feels hard done by in relation to results and we'd all like to think that teaching is fill of academic distinction but reality is different I'm afraid.

100% sure. . . The highest level they'll teach is Leaving Certificate Higher Level in their subject. Grasp of a subject requires knowing the ins and outs of the system, the marking schemes, having marked for the SEC and general experience. . . Not getting a higher class of degree

Whatever, but all other things being equal getting a higher class of a degree is a good guide to the general grasp of any topic in the first instance I think. Why, otherwise, do universities bother keeping people's scores?

Except those courses which are geared towards teaching only.

Yes. Given the nature of the forum I assumed there was no need to point that out.

Academic capacity is not judged by how someone got on in their Leaving Certificate.

Yes it is. I think you'll find that the CAO and the universities do exactly that. It is always argued (often presumably by under-achievers themselves) that as Larry Gogan used to say 'the questions didn't suit you' in the exam, but in my experience the brightest students tend to do best.


No they do not. . . You're argument is nonsense - that you think the top 15% of Leaving Certificate candidates comprise primary teachers only and not secondary.

This an excerpt (below) from the link you provided which is the Minister's address to the INTO conference. It is clear that he is referring to the intake to Primary teaching not only from the general context but also from the reference to the B.Ed degree immediately afterwards. Maybe all Post-Primary teachers are also in the top 15 per cent bracket but you see I am relying on evidence, and I have yet to see that. The evidence I see suggests that it is far from being the case.

Quality Teaching
A major focus in improving quality in our schools, must be to ensure that we have the best quality teachers in every classroom.
Teaching is a widely respected and sought after profession in Ireland.
We need to continue to ensure that most entrants to Initial Teacher Education come from the top 15% of all Leaving Cert students.
As you know, we have expanded the B.Ed. from 3 years to 4 years.
There is now an increased focus on pedagogy, rather than academic subjects.
I also want to see Higher Level Mathematics in the Leaving Cert become part of the minimum entry requirements for Initial Teacher Education, and will be in discussion with the relevant bodies on this issue shortly.

Peter Flynt

Powerhouse wrote: »

This is irrelevant. Nobody is questioning the reality that a teacher with the PME is a qualified teachers. I am merely suggesting that the job features a lot of academic medicority. And until some abstract means by which to judge academic ability is provided we must assume degree results to be a fair and reasonable objective guide. You'll always have the person who feels hard done by in relation to results and we'd all like to think that teaching is fill of academic distinction but reality is different I'm afraid.

I don't think you really know what you're typing about. If someone is qualified to do a job then they're qualified to do a job. "Academic mediocrity", as you put it, doesn't come into.

Whatever, but all other things being equal getting a higher class of a degree is a good guide to the general grasp of any topic in the first instance I think. Why, otherwise, do universities bother keeping people's scores?

It's not "grasp" of a topic that matters. It's ability to teach. Someone with a higher class degree doesn't have a better grasp because the standard that both have reached (degree level) far exceeds the academic demands of the job [Leaving Certificate]. If they're teaching to fourth level university standard to secondary school students then your argument might hold weight. . . but they're not.

Yes it is. I think you'll find that the CAO and the universities do exactly that.

:rolleyes:

This an excerpt . . .

I can read my own links. Ta.

At this stage I'm out. I don't do debating with know-it-alls who, frankly, know nothing.

Powerhouse

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I can read my own links. Ta.

Of course you can, but since the discussion was on a public forum and you were clearly claiming that the link said something that it didn't it was no harm to put it out there more visibly. The 15 per cent thing was a core part of your argument and was obviously baseless so opening the link, so to speak, was necessary.

Pity you felt the need to play the man rather than the ball, but I suppose that's no bad time to bring the matter to an end.

gaiscioch

audi12 wrote: »

most people seem to want to be a teacher because of holidays they get does any teacher actually like there job it must be the most boring job ever

I can't speak for "most people" but I certainly wouldn't be a teacher if it weren't for the holidays. I earn half what friends who graduated at the same time in the same subject earn, and my potential earnings and opportunities for promotion are lower than them all. If anybody expects me to teach for 48 weeks for the same salary that I get for teaching 39 weeks they are, quite frankly, delusional. If, more realistically, I were asked to work those extra weeks and be paid for them, I would get out of teaching as energy wise it's incredibly draining for the 39 weeks that are in it at the moment. I can do with the lower salary because the holidays allow me to fulfil other ambitions which, by my value system, are more important than additional money. That is the lifestyle exchange which I, and I suspect all teachers, have made. If teaching is such a handy number why aren't you doing it yourself?

ectoraige

I know of one school that only had one candidate for the position of Principal when it came up in 2010, although I think there was one other application that was rejected for being filled out incorrectly.