The Sweet Science

Big Ears

FTA69 wrote: »

One of my coaches is Herol Graham who fought Mike, he said McCallum was the toughest fight he ever had.

Greatest British fighter to never win a World title. McCallum rates him as the best 'boxer' he's faced (he states James Toney as the best fighter overall he's faced): http://ringtv.craveonline.com/news/168053-best-ive-faced-mike-mccallum

Duran & Hearns were kept away from McCallum, and for good reason as he'd of beaten both. He's the only fighter James Toney actually gives an kind of praise to (and he gives him quite a lot, really respects him).

FTA69

Herol's a character alright, teaches a very unorthodox style. He insists on laying back heavily on the back foot almost akin of the old bareknuckle fighters; he also advocates never turning a punch over, always using a vertical fist. The jab he tells people to use is nearly all arm and he has people dancing around the ring continuously. He's definitely in the minority of coaches I've seen anyway.

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

Greatest British fighter to never win a World title. McCallum rates him as the best 'boxer' he's faced (he states James Toney as the best fighter overall he's faced): http://ringtv.craveonline.com/news/168053-best-ive-faced-mike-mccallum

Duran & Hearns were kept away from McCallum, and for good reason as he'd of beaten both. He's the only fighter James Toney actually gives an kind of praise to (and he gives him quite a lot, really respects him).

I would have loved to have seen McCallum-Hearns. Tommy would have had his moments, but Mike breaks him mid to late rds for a KO. Too strong and heavy handed

megadodge

I really rate McCallum, but I think he has become slightly overrated in the last 10 years or so.

There is no doubt he was avoided by the real big names during his prime, mainly because he was too big a risk for too little reward, but when people talk about his technical excellence (and he was very good technically) they forget how he was clearly outboxed by Don Curry before landing a wild enough finishing left hook, then he lost on points to Sumbu Kalambay, being outboxed also.

I'm not so sure he'd have beaten Hearns. Nobody, and I really mean NOBODY ever outboxed a prime Tommy Hearns, so it would have had to be a stoppage. Now, that's not beyond the bounds of possibility, as Tommy's chin wasn't 100%, but it also wasn't quite as bad as people made it out to be. I'd fancy Tommy on points.

For what it's worth I thought McCallum was robbed in at least one of the first two Toney fights, probably both.

walshb

megadodge wrote: »

For what it's worth I thought McCallum was robbed in at least one of the first two Toney fights, probably both.

We'd discussed this. No way can you call fight 1 a robbery. Toney deserved it. He landed the more clean and solid shots throughout the fight. Mike did very well, but he didn't win that fight. To make out a robbery in a very competitive and closely fought 12 rd fight is off the mark. Fight 2 I haven't seen in a long time, but again, it was fought very competitively.

megadodge

walshb wrote: »

We'd discussed this. No way can you call fight 1 a robbery. Toney deserved it. He landed the more clean and solid shots throughout the fight. Mike did very well, but he didn't win that fight. To make out a robbery in a very competitive and closely fought 12 rd fight is off the mark. Fight 2 I haven't seen in a long time, but again, it was fought very competitively.

I admit it's been an awful long time since I've seen them (I watched them 'live' or morning after on TV), but I remember my whole thinking was that McCallum was doing all the working, in particular the jab, and Toney far more sporadic. If there were punch stats, I'd love to see them, cos I don't think Toney outlanded him at all.

Plus, it is James Toney we're talking about, and you're not exactly renowned for your unbiased analysis of his fights

Edit: Just googled both fights. The first had punch stats of McCallum landing 3 more punches, which is even, but in the second McCallum landed 100 more punches!! He threw more in both fights also.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1665&dat=19920830&id=03NPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zCQEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3390,7603992
http://articles.philly.com/1991-12-14/sports/25809754_1_mike-mccallum-james-toney-jackie-kallen

walshb

megadodge wrote: »

I admit it's been an awful long time since I've seen them (I watched them 'live' or morning after on TV), but I remember my whole thinking was that McCallum was doing all the working, in particular the jab, and Toney far more sporadic. If there were punch stats, I'd love to see them, cos I don't think Toney outlanded him at all.

Plus, it is James Toney we're talking about, and you're not exactly renowned for your unbiased analysis of his fights

Edit: Just googled both fights. The first had punch stats of McCallum landing 3 more punches, which is even, but in the second McCallum landed 100 more punches!! He threw more in both fights also.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1665&dat=19920830&id=03NPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zCQEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3390,7603992
http://articles.philly.com/1991-12-14/sports/25809754_1_mike-mccallum-james-toney-jackie-kallen

No doubt Mike landed as much, but Toney landed the more solid and clean shots in the first fight.

FTA69

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/4/30/5668082/maidana-mayweather-boxing-frame-by-frame-orchestrated-violence-video-analysis-technique

Great analysis of the evolution of Maidana as a fighter under Robert Garcia and how he is using jabs and feints to accompany his pressing and aggressive style. There's no denying he has become a far more rounded and impressive boxer over the past few years.

megadodge

pac_man wrote: »

Very few modern day boxers I see use the jab to the body and I don't understand why. It's a great punch that gives distance and offsets any
type of rhythm against a pressure fighter.

Very few boxers ever used that punch, not just modern day ones.

I'm not a fan of it at all. I think any decent counter puncher should be able to land the right hand over it and you're then in a vulnerable position when on the receiving end. I think that's the reason it's seldom used.

Deiseboy01

Its the upper cut id be worried about, you're sticking your head right out asking to have it knocked off

walshb

Personally I think the jab to the body is quite a difficult punch to counter against. The leaning in and stretching/dipping motion of the shot almost puts you out of harms way.

megadodge

pac_man wrote: »

Firstly it's hard to counter because the punch is unexpected and usually occurs after a faint or when it looks like your throwing a regular jab from eye contact or switching mid jab.

Secondly, I don't think you'd have significant leverage to throw a troublesome uppercut because you'd be connecting at waist level and even at that, the punch would be unnatural.The same applies to the right/left hand counter over the top especially when the fighter is square.

As I kinda mentioned earlier, the punch is so versatile, it can set things up, keep distance, disrupt rhythm or break down a fighter . Of course any punch can be countered, I just think you'd want to have really good timing to have any kinda success.

I really disagree. For starters if it was such a good punch how come so few fighters have ever used it consistently?

Your final paragraph is exactly how I'd describe the advantages of the jab to the head, except you could add in that a jab to the head can do consistent damage. I really struggle to see how a jab to the body sets things up or breaks down a fighter and as I said if a decent counter puncher throws and connects with a downward right hand while your in that vulnerable position (crouched and not perfectly balanced), you're gonna be hurt.

Plus if your opponent is standing in a correct side-on stance the body jab is going to be hard to land / slide off rather than land solidly.

FTA69

I agree with pac_man, and the jab to the body is a punch I use myself. Yes, it can be countered, but so can all punches and the jab to the body is one of the more difficult ones to counter due to the fact its often thrown from an awkward angle, the puncher steps slightly out of range and the fact the puncher has their arm extended protecting their chin.

Getting a hard jab in the solar plexus is no fun whatsoever, and while it isn't enough to seriously hurt, it certainly throws you off whatever you were doing in the first place. As pac said above, it also creates variety and uncertainty when fighting at range. If your opponent is guarding high then shoot one to his solar plexus, if he drops his guard to intercept it then feint, jab to the head and throw a right over it. Likewise if someone is telegraphing to gear up for a charge with heavy shots, a jab to the body can offset him while you move your feet.

I think it's a very useful tool.

megadodge

Well, I'd be prepared to take a jab to the body in order to land a counter right to the head. I know which one of the two is going to hurt more.

Punching downward is unnatural???
Wha???

As a person who is 6'2" and fought at light-middle, I punched downward quite a lot and it never felt unnatural. I can't imagine it's any different for most tall boxers.

Anyway, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

megadodge

I see what you mean about Mayweather/Mosely.

But also go to 2:53ish and you'll see perfectly what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK-obp_enCo

walshb

megadodge wrote: »

As a person who is 6'2" and fought at light-middle, I punched downward quite a lot and it never felt unnatural.
.

I knew the Hitman was on this site!:p

FTA69

Well, I'd be prepared to take a jab to the body in order to land a counter right to the head. I know which one of the two is going to hurt more.

If the person has their jab arm extended, is bent at the waist and is stepping to their right, you'll find it very hard to land that counter right.

As a person who is 6'2" and fought at light-middle, I punched downward quite a lot and it never felt unnatural. I can't imagine it's any different for most tall boxers.

Lanky boxers, the scourge of the amateurs.

megadodge

FTA69 wrote: »

If the person has their jab arm extended, is bent at the waist and is stepping to their right, you'll find it very hard to land that counter right.

I don't think it's that hard at all, especially as I have a memory of doing it (jab to the body) once in an important fight and getting instantly clipped. I remember thinking "ok, I won't be doing that again".

Lanky boxers, the scourge of the amateurs.

FTA69

http://www.hroarr.com/manuals/boxing-pugilism/Mendoza%20-%20The%20Art%20of%20Boxing.pdf

Here's a link to Daniel Mendoza's "The Art of Boxing"; it was the first book written about the scientific aspects of boxing and was published in the 1790s. Mendoza was an East End Jew who fought at middleweight but ended up winning the heavyweight championship with his advanced style that emphasised footwork, head-movement and avoiding punches.

FTA69

Here's a great video that examines the science behind "shifting" or switching stances mid-fight, it's something I've been incorporating myself over the past year with a decent amount of success.

FTA69

This is a great video from a couple of years back of Chavez Jr sparring underrated Armenian, Vanes Martirosyan. It's exactly how sparring should be conducted in the gym and shows some solid work from both. If Chavez Jr can tighten up aspects of his defence he'll be a much more formidable force.

walshb

Beautiful offensive display from both men. JCC is considerably bigger than the sparring partner. SMW vs. LMW.

FTA69

I've been a fan of Martirosyan since he held Lara to a draw. He has great explosiveness and lovely combinations.

Emmo-m-

Mayweather and Andre Ward both use the jab to the body. Fairly effectively as well.

You can hear Virgil Hunter saying to Ward in his last fight I think to use the "Floyd Jab" meaning the one to the body. Although obviously Floyd didnt invent the punch ha.

Henno30

Lee Wylie on the footwork of Roman Gonzalez

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rq8iKZnRyc

walshb

Wasn't sure where to post this, but this thread seems the best place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppoypIfgW-Q

4 mins 40 is probably the best KO I have ever seen. Its delivery is awesome. I had seen it several years ago and couldn't recall how I had seen it. Came across it by accident. The slo-mo of the KO is beautiful. You just have to see it. Ranks higher for me than his KO of Graham.

walshb

pac_man wrote: »

Punching power! Is it something you improve with technique or are you born with it?

Bit of both. But you either have force/weight/power to a naturally high level or you don't. The skill and techniques that you work on make the delivery and effectiveness of your punch that bit deadlier. I have done pads with hundreds of people, and many of them were very poor and unskilled guys, but some of then generated effortless power. It just happens with them.

megadodge

Takaloo v Wayne Alexander - still the best one punch ko I've ever seen.

Go to around 10:20 in the following video for the live KO and 12.45ish for the replays

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okfGnACPaEg

Big Ears

Julian Jackson was always value for money, he's got a highlight real of spectacular ko's all to himself.
These are 2 that always stick in my mind when I think massive ko shots:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGQfadN_10Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJJI-Dn2hmk

Sergio Martinez ko of Paul Williams, and JMM's ko of Pacquiao, and Pacquiao's ko of Hatton are a few others than stand out.

While some people are certainly born punchers, what a fighter is trying to do is apply as much force as possible through a certain point, in a certain plane of motion, and to not believe that physical training and improved technique can seriously alter that ability would be naive.

FTA69

Poor Herol. He coaches in my gym from time to time. He had that fight totally in the bag until he got sparked.