Burnt out terminal in Triton T90z

72hundred

Had a triton T90z installed a while ago, decided against DIY and paid to get it installed a €100 extra over unit cost... might be regretting that decision! Check out the nicely burnt for the live wire terminal! Seems it was loose, arked and burn out locally.

Robbie.G

72hundred wrote: »

Had a triton T90z installed a while ago, decided against DIY and paid to get it installed a €100 extra over unit cost... might be regretting that decision! Check out the nicely burnt for the live wire terminal! Seems it was loose, arked and burn out locally.

Oh yeah looks like a loose connection if there's enough spare on the cable cut it clear of the burn up strip it twist the cable with a pair of pliers then replace connector and reconnect.

Sleeper12

At least you spotted it now. If it got much worse (apart from risk of fire) you'd never get rid of the burn smell from inside the shower

John T Carroll

An old (now retired) electrician friend of mine told me many years ago that he would always go back a week or so after installing a shower or immersion and retighten the terminals, I presume he used to put a few bob on to the bill to cover his time, he always had plenty of work wheter he did or not.

Sleeper12

John T Carroll wrote: »

An old (now retired) electrician friend of mine told me many years ago that he would always go back a week or so after installing a shower or immersion and retighten the terminals, I presume he used to put a few bob on to the bill to cover his time, he always had plenty of work wheter he did or not.

If he tightened it enough in the first place & checked it before he left there was no need to come back a week later.
I guess maybe he didn't trust his own work.
Do the job once. Check it twice. You'll only ever need one visit.

John T Carroll

Sleeper12 wrote: »

If he tightened it enough in the first place & checked it before he left there was no need to come back a week later.
I guess maybe he didn't trust his own work.
Do the job once. Check it twice. You'll only ever need one visit.

That one way of looking at it alright, its obvious that he didnt install the T90Z, above.

72hundred

Since this thread as come up again, I should say that the original installer came out and repaired the damage. Some issues to get him out to fix it but its fix (or at least so far) now.

Sleeper12

72hundred wrote: »

Since this thread as come up again, I should say that the original installer came out and repaired the damage. Some issues to get him out to fix it but its fix (or at least so far) now.

From your photo it suggests he didn't tighten the live enough. All that is needed is to replace the connector block & tighten properly. I'm pretty sure he wont make the same mistake twice.
When I was trained (in the 80s) I was always told to check everything twice because the 2nd call out (as in this case) is at your own expense.:)

DGOBS

Remember all electrical works in a bathroom are restricted works and require a registered electrical contractor, and must be certified

Sleeper12

DGOBS wrote: »

Remember all electrical works in a bathroom are restricted works and require a registered electrical contractor, and must be certified

Shower replacement & pull cord replacement do not need a rec. New installations only. Replacement showers and replacement pull cord come under competent person.

DGOBS

Fair enough, so who is considered competent?

Sleeper12

DGOBS wrote: »

Fair enough, so who is considered competent?

I own a shower installation & repair company. I've been doing it over 30 years. I'm a plumber by trade. I am considered competent according to the new regulations & by my insurance company.
TThe scariest thing is the shower manifacture selling electric showers as a diy product. Because of this you have people with almost no knowledge of what they are doing possibly replacing an 8.5kw shower for 9.5kw or even 10kw with only 6mm cable.
II would suggest that the new regulations should include rules stopping manifacture selling their products as diy when the law says they are not diy.

DGOBS

Couldn't agree more

It's about time we had an equivalent to UK Part P competence, as with no scheme in place

Just to add, a friends son (some years back) was killed by an electric shower

Sir Arthur Daley

DGOBS wrote: »

It's about time we had an equivalent to UK Part P competence, as with no scheme in place

I agree with you to an extent but anyone in the trade of plumbing/electrics home maintenance should not be replacing showers if they are not competent to do so.
I had a look at the installation manual of the Triton T90z online and its covered in warnings and important information for the installer, if whoever is installing it either a keen diyer or a qualified personal they should read the manual and take note of these.
This country is turning into courses for this and for that, yearly memberships who to some call them "clubs" which entitle them to do a job that another equally qualified person cannot.
For a homeowner replacing a shower is no different to them changing brake pads and calipers and incorrectly bleeding them and causing a traffic collision. People need to accept their limits and their boundaries. Unfortunately a you tube video now gives people a false idea of what a job they may be about to do and the reprocuctions it could have without them knowing it.

Sir Arthur Daley

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

I agree with you to an extent but anyone in the trade of plumbing/electrics home maintenance should not be replacing showers if they are not competent to do so.
I had a look at the installation manual of the Triton T90z online and its covered in warnings and important information for the installer, if whoever is installing it either a keen diyer or a qualified personal they should read the manual and take note of these.
This country is turning into courses for this and for that, yearly memberships who to some call them "clubs" which entitle them to do a job that another equally qualified person cannot.
For a homeowner replacing a shower is no different to them changing brake pads and calipers and incorrectly bleeding them and causing a traffic collision. People need to accept their limits and their boundaries. Unfortunately a you tube video now gives people a false idea of what a job they may be about to do and the reprocuctions it could have without them knowing it.

Those courses can be a benefit and we have to start somewhere, my UK Gassafe ID shows the courses i'v sat so customers can tell what areas of gas, electrics and plumbing I'm competent in.

There are over 156 different Gassafe papers to take and you only sit what is relevant to your ability and experience.

Robbie.G

I was at one today that the neutral was burnt out and elbow leaking inside tenant got shower fitted themselves around 6 months ago.
I don't know who fitted the shower a sparks?Plumber ? Bodger?
Sparks should have twisted the stranded cable and tightened it.
Plumber should have changed English nuts and rings on elbow.
Bodger wouldn't know any better so who's guess.
But like all tenant gets job done
Leak caused by whoever damages ceiling burnt out neutral and council ends up picking up bill

Sir Arthur Daley

Robbie.G wrote: »

Sparks should have twisted the stranded cable and tightened it.

On some mira installations its says not to twist the cable cores. What make shower was it?

Robbie.G

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

On some mira installations its says not to twist the cable cores. What make shower was it?

It was a triton t 90z
I was always taught to twist stranded if not the strands can spread under the terminal and can cause a bad connection.

Sir Arthur Daley

Robbie.G wrote: »

It was a triton t 90z
I was always taught to twist stranded if not the strands can spread under the terminal and can cause a bad connection.

I was always thought that too, i think with some of the mira connectors they have a flat metal under the screw and an untwisted cable would flatten and give better surface contact. Definately in the triton though where the screw pierces down on the cable its better twisted.

Sleeper12

Robbie.G wrote: »

I was at one today that the neutral was burnt out and elbow leaking inside tenant got shower fitted themselves around 6 months ago.
I don't know who fitted the shower a sparks?Plumber ? Bodger?
Sparks should have twisted the stranded cable and tightened it.
Plumber should have changed English nuts and rings on elbow.
Bodger wouldn't know any better so who's guess.
But like all tenant gets job done
Leak caused by whoever damages ceiling burnt out neutral and council ends up picking up bill

A lot a manufactures say not to twist the strands at all.
I'm going to get hammered for saying this but a half inch English nut and ring work perfectly on an Irish pipe. I've been using them on several showers per day for 30 years. Not a single call back.
YYou won't get away with three quarter inch though only half inch.

Sir Arthur Daley

gary71 wrote: »

Those courses can be a benefit and we have to start somewhere, my UK Gassafe ID shows the courses i'v sat so customers can tell what areas of gas, electrics and plumbing I'm competent in.

There are over 156 different Gassafe papers to take and you only sit what is relevant to your ability and experience.

I appreciate your point but i don't think its necessary for a plumber to do a course on basic electrics e.g connecting up a shower, immersion.
Surely in the 4 years of a plumbing apprentice there is some training on electrics that are associated with plumbing, i don't know the plumbing apprentice so appreciate some input on my post.

Sir Arthur Daley

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

I appreciate your point but i don't think its necessary for a plumber to do a course on basic electrics e.g connecting up a shower, immersion.
Surely in the 4 years of a plumbing apprentice there is some training on electrics that are associated with plumbing, i don't know the plumbing apprentice so appreciate some input on my post.

It's not about teaching tradesmen how to suck eggs, the courses I sit are to prove competency and relevancy in a given trade to help protect the tradesman in the event of a incident, they also help restrict entry in to the industry of those who don't have a trade back ground and are a extra level of safety by confirming good working practise which can change over the years.

As someone who is both qualified and tested every five years for the last 25 I can see the benefits of doing this as much as I hate the bloody test papers.

Sir Arthur Daley

gary71 wrote: »

It's not about teaching tradesmen how to suck eggs, the courses I sit are to prove competency and relevancy in a given trade to help protect the tradesman in the event of a incident,

Shouldn't a qualification not stand to a tradesman as being competent in their apprenticeship or other schooling?
Or are your referring to people who may not be skilled at all and doing a course now and again and building up their portfolio?

they also help restrict entry in to the industry of those who don't have a trade back ground and are a extra level of safety by confirming good working practise which can change over the years.

I used do some work on gas before RGII was established and didint do any course or training to find out that the changes in working on gas.

Sir Arthur Daley

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Shouldn't a qualification not stand to a tradesman as being competent in their apprenticeship or other schooling?

No, i'v been a gas fitter 28 years and I'm a better one for having to prove myself every 5 years because I can forget things or miss they changed, when I started gas fitting some older gas fitters where using matches to find gas leaks and wet fingers to find power. Competency needs to be proven in environments where people can get hurt.

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Or are your referring to people who may not be skilled at all and doing a course now and again and building up their portfolio?

if their building a portfolio aren't they gaining skills, set a decent benchmark for everyone to meet regardless of background.

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

I used do some work on gas before RGII was established and didint do any course or training to find out that the changes in working on gas.

Good for you but how do you prove to a coroner the explosion wasn't your fault, I can prove my competency and have a element of protection if I wire a shower(in the UK) or fit a unvented cylinder or a gas boiler.


I don't want to go off topic so we'll agree to disagree.

John T Carroll

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

I was always thought that too, i think with some of the mira connectors they have a flat metal under the screw and an untwisted cable would flatten and give better surface contact. Definately in the triton though where the screw pierces down on the cable its better twisted.

That makes sense, what it says in the manual for my (2007) Mira Sport is
"Caution! DO NOT twist the individual cable cores of the live and neutral conductors, as this will prevent them from entering the terminal block".
It says somewhere else that "The terminal block will not accept cable larger than 10 MM2 (7.5, 9.0 and 9.8 KW)".

I had a pre-wired immersion fitted to the top of new cylinder which had a loose neutral that generated so much heat the welds on the immersion went, flooding the house, totally destroying the sitting room and music room below, surprisingly my parents don't ask me to do any more work for them.

At least I understand the importance of a good connection now.

Sir Arthur Daley

gary71 wrote: »

I don't want to go off topic so we'll agree to disagree.

My apologies for dragging it off topic, its debate for another thread.

Sleeper12

gary71 wrote: »

I had a pre-wired immersion fitted to the top of new cylinder which had a loose neutral that generated so much heat the welds on the immersion went flooding the house, totally destroying the sitting room and music room below, surprisingly my parents don't ask me to do any more work for them.

At least I understand the importance of a good connection now.

It could have been worse. Check out the photos below. cylinder in the attic. Family had to stay in a hotel last Dec & Jan. Needed new roof & attic. Nothing tripped & because it was in the attic they noticed the smell much later than if it was on the landing
Scary stuff

Frightening.