PUBLC PLACE RTA ?

NUTLEY BOY

What is the current legal definition of a public place as far as road traffic matters are concerned ?

Little CuChulainn

I think it still comes under the definition in the 1961 Act

any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge

Pro Hoc Vice

The 1961 Act states

"public place” means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;"

The 1994 Act amended that as follows

"(iv) by the substitution for the definition of “public place” of the following definition:

“‘public place’ means—

(a) any public road, and

(b) any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;”;

The 1994 amendment was due to a high court case that decided Grafton stree was not a public place, under the 1994 definition it would be as its a public road.

Carawaystick

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

The 1961 Act states

"public place” means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;"

The 1994 Act amended that as follows

"(iv) by the substitution for the definition of “public place” of the following definition:

“‘public place’ means—

(a) any public road, and

(b) any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;”;

The 1994 amendment was due to a high court case that decided Grafton stree was not a public place, under the 1994 definition it would be as its a public road.

Is grafton street a road?
Is a road actually defined, the linked act defines things on a road to be part of the road but don't define a road.

Pro Hoc Vice

Carawaystick wrote: »

Is grafton street a road?
Is a road actually defined, the linked act defines things on a road to be part of the road but don't define a road.

“public road” means a road the responsibility for the maintenance of which lies on a road authority;


“road” includes any bridge, pipe, arch, gully, footway, pavement, fence, railing or wall forming part thereof;


“roadway” means that portion of a road which is provided primarily for the use of vehicles;


All from the act. Grafton street is a road, but under the 1961 Act as cars did not have access it was not a public place, under the 2994 definition it is.

Lmklad

Basically anywhere that is accessible by vehicle (not pedestrian street) and is maintained by the local authority.

Mikros

Lmklad wrote: »

Basically anywhere that is accessible by vehicle (not pedestrian street) and is maintained by the local authority.

The local authority has nothing to do with it. Private property (e.g. a carpark in a supermarket) can be a public place under the Road Traffic Act if the pubic have a right of access.

Public roads are those maintained by the local authority.

endacl

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

under the 2994 definition it is.

Now that's what I call planning ahead!

mfergus

Lmklad wrote: »

Basically anywhere that is accessible by vehicle (not pedestrian street) and is maintained by the local authority.

Not this.

Pedestrian streets would still be covered.
Otherwise you be allowed to bring your vehicle onto a pedestrian street and drive drunk and dangerously....

Also nothing to do with who maintains it...

coylemj

Mikros wrote: »

The local authority has nothing to do with it. Private property (e.g. a carpark in a supermarket) can be a public place under the Road Traffic Act if the pubic have a right of access.

The don't need a 'right of access', simply permission at a particular time to enter with vehicles and it doesn't matter if they have to pay or not so (e.g.) Dundrum shopping centre car park would be a public place under the RTA.

Mikros

coylemj wrote: »

The don't need a 'right of access', simply permission at a particular time to enter with vehicles and it doesn't matter if they have to pay or not so (e.g.) Dundrum shopping centre car park would be a public place under the RTA.

The Act sets out the access is "whether as of right or by permission". The right to access as such is either implied by virtue of not generally excluding vehicles, or explicitly given by permission. Anyway let's not split hairs, I think we both know know what a public place is...

Carawaystick

I can read the act, but what makes a road a road?
Is a path worn by walkers through a field a road?
Is a towpath a road?

Beano

Carawaystick wrote: »

I can read the act, but what makes a road a road?
Is a path worn by walkers through a field a road?
Is a towpath a road?

Do they have vehicular access? Do the public have access? If there is any doubt as to whether it is a road then it wont be cleared up until it is tested in court.

Pro Hoc Vice

Carawaystick wrote: »

I can read the act, but what makes a road a road?
Is a path worn by walkers through a field a road?
Is a towpath a road?

The following make a road a road,


“public road” means a road the responsibility for the maintenance of which lies on a road authority;


“road” includes any bridge, pipe, arch, gully, footway, pavement, fence, railing or wall forming part thereof;


“roadway” means that portion of a road which is provided primarily for the use of vehicles;

there may be case law on specific definitions of what is and is not a road for the RTA, I do not believe a path worn by walkers through a field would be a road.

Victor

Carawaystick wrote: »

I can read the act, but what makes a road a road?

It would be down to the 'ordinary' dictionary meaning.

The Roads Act 1993 does have: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0014/sec0002.html#sec2

2.—(1) In this Act, except where the context otherwise requires—

“road” includes—

(a) any street, lane, footpath, square, court, alley or passage,

(b) any bridge, viaduct, underpass, subway, tunnel, overpass, overbridge, flyover, carriageway (whether single or multiple), pavement or footway,

(c) any weighbridge or other facility for the weighing or inspection of vehicles, toll plaza or other facility for the collection of tolls, service area, emergency telephone, first aid post, culvert, arch, gulley, railing, fence, wall, barrier, guardrail, margin, kerb, lay-by, hard shoulder, island, pedestrian refuge, median, central reserve, channelliser, roundabout, gantry, pole, ramp, bollard, pipe, wire, cable, sign, signal or lighting forming part of the road, and

(d) any other structure or thing forming part of the road and—
(i) necessary for the safety, convenience or amenity of road users or for the construction, maintenance, operation or management of the road or for the protection of the environment, or
(ii) prescribed by the Minister;

This definition would probably be persuasive but would not be binding in traffic matters.