Tire width 23 or 25 mm

outfox

This question has probably been discussed ad nauseum on the boards previously, but I cannot find a recent thread.
I have to replace the stock 23 mm tyre on one of the wheels of my summer bike. There's a lot of stuff online about 23 v 25 mm.
I'm wondering how many boardsies have switched from 23 to 25 on their good bike, and if anyone is disappointed with 25?

07Lapierre

You'll be even more confused by the end of the video!

http://youtu.be/2pIHm40Amx0

PeddlyFreddly

I recently replaced the 23s on my alu training bike with 25s and the difference in pretty amazing. It's now slightly more comfortable to ride than my good carbon framed race bike (23s). It's now a pleasure to take out on 100km+ rides. I guess it depends on what you're using your good bike for. There is a small trade-off in rolling resistance, so I wouldn't do it for racing.

krissovo

PeddlyFreddly wrote: »

There is a small trade-off in rolling resistance, so I wouldn't do it for racing.

I think this has been proven incorrect or irrelevant recently, most teams are using 25's as there is LESS rolling resistance.

krissovo

Just to add, going from 23 Michelin pro 4's to 25's conti gp4000's has been a god send. My ass could read the road like Braille with the 23's, if I rode over a coin it could tell you the year of minting and the buzz of the roads with the stone on them was annoying. With the 25's it's very plush in comparison on our bumpy roads.

happytramp

To be honest as far as I can tell there is zero difference. It all depends on the tire. Thread count (tpi) is king. I've 19mm clinchers with a 320TPI that are far more comfortable than my 25mm GP4000's. That said they'll wear out quicker. Ultimately a better quality tire will make a bigger difference than a slightly wider tire.

outfox

As to be expected, I'm no wiser!

not yet

Sorry to hijack your thread..

Just got a pair of conti 4000gpII delivered this morning, put them on and realised there is an indicator for putting them on right way around, now with the hangover I didn't see this till now, so I'm wondering if it will make a difference or or should I just leave them.

Oh and a big shout out to swimcyclerun.com Delivered in 48hrs and cheaper then anywhere else.

on_the_nickel

Just check there's enough clearance in your forks - I tried 25mm tyres on my new bike and had to change them back to 23mm because of rubbing.

Inquitus

not yet wrote: »

Sorry to hijack your thread..

Just got a pair of conti 4000gpII delivered this morning, put them on and realised there is an indicator for putting them on right way around, now with the hangover I didn't see this till now, so I'm wondering if it will make a difference or or should I just leave them.

Oh and a big shout out to swimcyclerun.com Delivered in 48hrs and cheaper then anywhere else.

I have had mine on the wrong way round since I got them, but for that I would be an A1 by now.......

lopesc

not yet wrote: »

Just got a pair of conti 4000gpII delivered this morning, put them on and realised there is an indicator for putting them on right way around, now with the hangover I didn't see this till now, so I'm wondering if it will make a difference or or should I just leave them.

Change them back or else you'll end up cycling backwards!

not yet

Inquitus wrote: »

I have had mine on the wrong way round since I got them, but for that I would be an A1 by now.......

+1

outfox

Coincidentally, I was leaning towards GP4000s. Thanks for the heads up re fitting direction. Should help my own A1 prospects...

Lumen

krissovo wrote: »

I think this has been proven incorrect or irrelevant recently, most teams are using 25's as there is LESS rolling resistance.

"Wide tires only roll better at the same inflation pressure, but narrow tires can be inflated to higher pressures than wide tires"

http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/rolling_resistance

What are recommended and max pressures for (say) 23mm and 25mm GP4000s?

not yet

outfox wrote: »

Coincidentally, I was leaning towards GP4000s. Thanks for the heads up re fitting direction. Should help my own A1 prospects...

I'll prob end up fitting them correctly but not today with a hangover, Check out that website above, really are hard to beat..

not yet

Lumen wrote: »

"Wide tires only roll better at the same inflation pressure, but narrow tires can be inflated to higher pressures than wide tires"

http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/rolling_resistance

What are recommended and max pressures for (say) 23mm and 25mm GP4000s?

The 25s I got have a 120psi max recommended. Think the 23s are 115psi.

ford2600

outfox wrote: »

Coincidentally, I was leaning towards GP4000s. Thanks for the heads up re fitting direction. Should help my own A1 prospects...

25 according to what I've read roll faster, all other variables being equal only if run at same high pressure.

It's all to do with size/shape of contact patch.

More comfortable and less likely to pinch at lower pressure but you will lose performance gains

Lumen

not yet wrote: »

The 25s I got have a 120psi max recommended. Think the 23s are 115psi.

Found it.

talkabout

Changed to 25mm GP4000 recently from 23mm Gatorskins. The difference is night and day; roll better, better handling and very comfortable even on rough surfaces. I wouldn't go back to Gatorskins. Probably not a fair comparison as the Gatorskins and GP4000 are completely different tyres but I’m very happy with the 25mm GP4000. I did find them very wide looking at the beginning but you soon get used to that.

not yet

talkabout wrote: »

Changed to 25mm GP4000 recently from 23mm Gatorskins. The difference is night and day; roll better, better handling and very comfortable even on rough surfaces. I wouldn't go back to Gatorskins. Probably not a fair comparison as the Gatorskins and GP4000 are completely different tyres but I’m very happy with the 25mm GP4000. I did find them very wide looking at the beginning but you soon get used to that.

Looking forward to getting out later for a spin, the stock tyres on a trek are pretty crap.

happytramp

talkabout wrote: »

Changed to 25mm GP4000 recently from 23mm Gatorskins. The difference is night and day; roll better, better handling and very comfortable even on rough surfaces. I wouldn't go back to Gatorskins. Probably not a fair comparison as the Gatorskins and GP4000 are completely different tyres but I’m very happy with the 25mm GP4000. I did find them very wide looking at the beginning but you soon get used to that.

This. The GP's are a far nicer rolling tire than the gatorskins in any size.

In relation to thread direction. I've always firmly believed it makes no difference but Daragh from Beecycles maintained that it must. I stuck to my guns, didn't change my tires and slipped and broke my leg two days later. Probably had zero to do with thread direction but I always do it right these days

Ryath

not yet wrote: »

Looking forward to getting out later for a spin, the stock tyres on a trek are pretty crap.

Which model trek? Had a 1.5 rental one in Nerja last week frame was nice wheels bit heavy but the brakes were s***. Absolutely no feel and required a huge effort. Had to keep them on the whole way down a 3.5k descent that averaged 9% the first day as I had no faith they would slow me in the corners. Got the bike shop to change front pads was better after that more feel but the deep drop calipers still needed a fair bit of effort. I'll bring my own pads and maybe wheels next time.

The tires bontager r1 were decent I thought though tough as old boots rode several climbs with surfaces like this on them and worse and there wasn't a mark on them. They're probably not great in the wet though never got a chance to test that out

https://www.google.ie/maps/@36.768651,-3.790204,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1siFFq0bp9QfuT2xtVNWI5Zg!2e0

not yet

Ryath wrote: »

Which model trek? Had a 1.5 rental one in Nerja last week frame was nice wheels bit heavy but the brakes were s***. Absolutely no feel and required a huge effort. Had to keep them on the whole way down a 3.5k descent that averaged 9% the first day as I had no faith they would slow me in the corners. Got the bike shop to change front pads was better after that more feel but the deep drop calipers still needed a fair bit of effort. I'll bring my own pads and maybe wheels next time.

The tires bontager r1 were decent I thought though tough as old boots rode several climbs with surfaces like this on them and worse and there wasn't a mark on them. They're probably not great in the wet though never got a chance to test that out

https://www.google.ie/maps/@36.768651,-3.790204,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1siFFq0bp9QfuT2xtVNWI5Zg!2e0

Domane 2.3, kind of a mid range trek but at 1,500 euro I'd expect a better tyre.

Ryath

not yet wrote: »

Domane 2.3, kind of a mid range trek but at 1,500 euro I'd expect a better tyre.

Same tyre as the 1.5. It's fairly standard even a lot of €3000 bikes come with fairly basic tyres and wheels. I've used a mix of continental gp 4000s , gp 4 seasons and attack/force over the last few years and they're a much nicer tyre to ride than hard shell tyres like gatorskins or the bontager r1's. 4 seasons are still very durable. The attack/force are not as long lasting bit more prones to cuts but are a very nice race tyre. The 4000s are the best all round bet.

AstraMonti

At the state of our roads a higher TPI, wider, with lower pressure will probably be faster than a narrow pumped above 120psi tire. The first will deform taking the shape of the road while the other will be jumping around.

not yet

not yet wrote: »

Sorry to hijack your thread..

Just got a pair of conti 4000gpII delivered this morning, put them on and realised there is an indicator for putting them on right way around, now with the hangover I didn't see this till now, so I'm wondering if it will make a difference or or should I just leave them.

Oh and a big shout out to swimcyclerun.com Delivered in 48hrs and cheaper then anywhere else.

Well just back from a 30k spin on my new tires, They sure stand up to the comments on line, nearly feels like you have the wind at your back all the time..

kumate_champ07

krissovo wrote: »

I think this has been proven incorrect or irrelevant recently, most teams are using 25's as there is LESS rolling resistance.

theyre using 25's because alot of carbon rims are 25mm wide so it creates a better aero profile

kumate_champ07

also a 25mm tubular is always 25mm, but a 25mm clincher tyre will change size depending on the rim inner and outer width. 23mm clincher tyres measure closer to 25mm when on a wide rim.

H.E. Pennypacker

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

also a 25mm tubular is always 25mm, but a 25mm clincher tyre will change size depending on the rim inner and outer width. 23mm clincher tyres measure closer to 25mm when on a wide rim.

That's interesting.

On my commuting Shimano 501 wheelset (20.8mm rim width), 25mm Gatorskins fully inflated measure 25mm wide, 23mm GP4000S measure 23mm but 25mm GP4000S are a hefty 27mm wide :eek:. The bike feels fastest on 23mm GP4000S.

The GP4000S referred to above are folding whereas the Gatorskins aren't.

kumate_champ07

gp4000s 23mm measured 24.5mm on my 20mm wide pro lite wheels

are those shimano 13/15 or 17mm internal width do you know?

Ive seen it mentioned before about the 25mm gp4000s being more of a 28mm 4000s

H.E. Pennypacker

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

gp4000s 23mm measured 24.5mm on my 20mm wide pro lite wheels

are those shimano 13/15 or 17mm internal width do you know?

Ive seen it mentioned before about the 25mm gp4000s being more of a 28mm 4000s

I've no idea what the internal width of the WH-501 is - this is the only info that I can find but it just mentions the 20.8mm width:

http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/SI/Wheel/MTB/SI_4SB0A/SI-4SB0A-002-ENG_t_v1_m56577569830749985.pdf

AstraMonti

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

also a 25mm tubular is always 25mm.

I have to disagree on that. I have: 23mm veloflex that measure 21.8, 25 veloflex that are 24, vittoria 25 at 24.2 and only the fmbs are 25. Edit: and it's a possibility that I could be measuring them wrongly

outfox

Decided to go with a GP4000s 23 mm. Put it on yesterday evening, and did 30 km on it. Feels slightly different to my previous tyre (Vittoria Zafiro 23 mm). I could feel the bumps more, but they weren't jarring.
It seems to measure about 23 mm on the rim (Shimano RS10).
I agree with most posters above that a 25 mm tyre would probably be better on our roads, but the thought of having a 25 mm tyre on one wheel and a 23 mm on the other was just too awful to contemplate.

laraghrider

For a long time it was thought/assumed that 23 was a quicker tyre than 25. Not the case and a lot of new figures coming out in the past year suggest 25 is actually ever so slightly quicker than 23 all things being equal. The vast majority of pro's now ride 25's however pressure changes pending on road surface, weather, temperature etc...

kumate_champ07

AstraMonti wrote: »

I have to disagree on that. I have: 23mm veloflex that measure 21.8, 25 veloflex that are 24, vittoria 25 at 24.2 and only the fmbs are 25. Edit: and it's a possibility that I could be measuring them wrongly

sorry I wasnt clear, I mean it will measure exactly the same on every tubular rim

Cond0r

Surprised nobody has mentioned this yet:

http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/01/01/tires-how-wide-is-too-wide

(TL;DR: Wider tyres are actually faster, especially on bad surfaces, up to a point.)

Lumen

Cond0r wrote: »

Surprised nobody has mentioned this yet:

http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/01/01/tires-how-wide-is-too-wide

(TL;DR: Wider tyres are actually faster, especially on bad surfaces, up to a point.)

There's little mention of pressures in that article, which other sources cite as being critical.

In the comments it is stated that "we tried to keep all variables except tire width the same" if that includes pressure then it's no surprise that they found wider tyres are faster.

The raw data isn't public.

Cond0r

Lumen wrote: »

There's little mention of pressures in that article, which other sources cite as being critical.

In the comments it is stated that "we tried to keep all variables except tire width the same" if that includes pressure then it's no surprise that they found wider tyres are faster.

The raw data isn't public.

What are the other sources? He states in the last comment "Some differences between tires with similar performance were not significant, but the noise in the tire pressure tests was small enough that the results were statistically significant."

I don't quite understand your logic.. if the pressure is taken out of the equation, and the wider tyre rolls faster then wider equals faster?

Or are you suggesting that they ran the narrower tyres at lower pressure (taking the lowest of the recommended between the different widths) and hence the wider tyres ran faster because they were at the "correct" pressure?

Lumen

Cond0r wrote: »

What are the other sources?

Sources other than Bicycle Quarterly.

Cond0r wrote: »

He states in the last comment "Some differences between tires with similar performance were not significant, but the noise in the tire pressure tests was small enough that the results were statistically significant."

There are loads of charts which show that for a given tyre, higher pressure gives lower rolling resistance up to a point. For 23mm tyres the ideal pressure is usually around 120psi IIRC, depending on road surface.

Cond0r wrote: »

I don't quite understand your logic.. if the pressure is taken out of the equation, and the wider tyre rolls faster then wider equals faster?

Wider tyres are designed to be run at lower pressures. I used to run 28mm Schwalbe Ultremos at about 90psi, and they would have exploded at 120psi (they exploded anyway, but that's Ultremos for you).

Cond0r wrote: »

Or are you suggesting that they ran the narrower tyres at lower pressure (taking the lowest of the recommended between the different widths) and hence the wider tyres ran faster because they were at the "correct" pressure?

I have no idea what they did, because they don't say in that article.

Cond0r

Lumen wrote: »

Sources other than Bicycle Quarterly.


There are loads of charts which show that for a given tyre, higher pressure gives lower rolling resistance up to a point. For 23mm tyres the ideal pressure is usually around 120psi IIRC, depending on road surface.


Wider tyres are designed to be run at lower pressures. I used to run 28mm Schwalbe Ultremos at about 90psi, and they would have exploded at 120psi (they exploded anyway, but that's Ultremos for you).


I have no idea what they did, because they don't say in that article.

It's a fair point that we don't know, but it would be a bit silly if they ran the tyres at the *same* pressure, rather than at the relevant recommended pressure.

outfox

Lumen wrote: »

(they exploded anyway, but that's Ultremos for you).

Were you on the bike at the time? What happens if a tyre explodes when you're rolling? Is it catastrophic?

kumate_champ07

wider tyres will pick up more glass too

Lumen

outfox wrote: »

Were you on the bike at the time? What happens if a tyre explodes when you're rolling? Is it catastrophic?

I was about to begin a long cycle in Donegal when I noticed a small bulge in the sidewall. Being an idiot, I decided it would be grand. Halfway into the cycle it was looking heavily pregnant, so I dropped the pressure and carried on. Finally the sidewall gave way as I was climbing some godforsaken hill into a gale force headwind and rain. I spend quite some time squatting in ditches using all available means to boot and patch the tyre and tube, before finally admitting defeat and calling a taxi.