Catholic-bashing.

FullblownRose

It's all the rage! Anyone else finding it tiresome? A bit hypocrytical, an excuse to be self righteous? Certainly, there are any people with good reason to shun *the r.c church as an organisation*. There are also may people who don't have a personal reason for their hateful attitude to catholics *as individuals* ! Needless to say the past misdeeds of many priests and nuns are abhorrent and inexcusable and the reputation of the organisation is understandably tarnished beyond repair imo.
I am not a Catholic, as it happens. I am just bored with it aand I also empathise with innocent people who have to endure insulting rearks because of their personal faith and in a sense being found guilty by association.

Turtwig

It's all the rage for very valid reasons. Atrocities committed tend to make people angry. Rights denied make them frustrated. If they didn't we wouldn't be human.

Catholics just aren't used to having their ideas scrutinized or criticised. There is some insults and personal attacks that I would consider bashing, but all too often criticism is conflated with bashing. Every person has the right to their opinion but if they wish to use that opinion to shape public policy they cannot expect an absence of public criticism.

B.A._Baracus

Sadly people are assholes.
People like to bash things that they are not, do not believe in, the opposite of their lifestyle, etc. It's all apart of blowing yourself up. "I'm right because X, Y, Z... but your wrong because of X, Y, Z!"


Like, the Catholic Church has alot to answer for. Because alot has gone on. But all too often you see people bashing religion as a whole.

krudler

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Sadly people are assholes.
People like to bash things that they are not, do not believe in, the opposite of their lifestyle, etc. It's all apart of blowing yourself up. "I'm right because X, Y, Z... but your wrong because of X, Y, Z!"


Like, the Catholic Church has alot to answer for. Because alot has gone on. But all too often you see people bashing religion as a whole.

Isn't that exactly what the RCC does? people often confuse "calling organistations with outdated views out on their BS" with "bashing".

_Redzer_

I don't hate catholics, I hate their religion. I have valid reasons for it though. I don't hold my opinions for no reason, just because "it's all the rage" these days... apparently.

B.A._Baracus

krudler wrote: »

Isn't that exactly what the RCC does? people often confuse "calling organistations with outdated views out on their BS" with "bashing".

Re-read what I said.
It's taking an issue against the roman catholic church (which there are plenty) but applying that to all over religion.

--LOS--

Peoples memories are not that short and it's completely warranted.

RDM_83 again

Its just one of those things OP, its like making a big point of not being homophobic or not being racist, I respect people that actually stand up to against a majority opinion because it they feel its right, when the majority opinion is on your side and your not adding anything new its just the standard lazy back slapping that here is famous for.

FullblownRose

Turtwig wrote: »

It's all the rage for very valid reasons. Atrocities committed tend to make people angry. Rights denied make them frustrated. If they didn't we wouldn't be human.

Catholics just aren't used to having their ideas scrutinized or criticised. There is some insults and personal attacks that I would consider bashing, but all too often criticism is conflated with bashing. Every person has the right to their opinion but if they wish to use that opinion to shape public policy they cannot expect an absence of public criticism.

I already said there are people who are understandably anti catholic church for personal reasons. Youre conflating those with people who have not had direct experience of having any rights denied or atrocities perpetrated upon them yet they expound on their ill feeling towards the catholics as though they have a personal grievance with every catholic person.. I think catholics must live a very isolated life if they ''aren't used to ...being criticised'' conidering I see very vehement, misplaced and disproportionate criticism from other atheist acquaintances expressed on social networking sites on a very regular basis.!

It's perfectly posible and reasonable to express a view on public policies calmly and rationally, without being offensive to catholics. They can reasonably expect an absence of criticim that extends far beyond the matter of policy.

iwantmydinner

You say that as if the Catholic Church wasn't an organisation that presided over the systematic rape of children, followed by a systematic cover up. As if it didn't enslave young, pregnant women and steal their children, selling the babies for profit. As if it didn't starve 800 babies to death and then bury them in a mass, unmarked grave.

_Redzer_

FullblownRose wrote: »

I already said there are people who are understandably anti catholic church for personal reasons. Youre conflating those with people who have not had direct experience of having any rights denied or atrocities perpetrated upon them yet they expound on their ill feeling towards the catholics as though they have a personal grievance with every catholic person.. I think catholics must live a very isolated life if they ''aren't used to ...being criticised'' conidering I see very vehement, misplaced and disproportionate criticism from other atheist acquaintances expressed on social networking sites on a very regular basis.!

It's perfectly posible and reasonable to express a view on public policies calmly and rationally, without being offensive to catholics. They can reasonably expect an absence of criticim that extends far beyond the matter of policy.

Why would you need to be personally affected by the Catholic Church in order to be against them? By your logic, anyone who isn't black or gay shouldn't care or get preoccupied by issues that don't personally affect them.

I don't have to be black to care or get involved about an issue of racism. If I think it's wrong, it's wrong in my view. Why would I step aside just because it doesn't affect me personally shows a lack of concern or care. How would any sort of social progression be achieved by that mindset?

The Catholic Church has carried out very serious atrocities in this country and they used to bash anyone who didn't conform with their ethos severely.

It's like the church has been hitting us over the head with the bible and now we say stop and they cry themselves as victims. They've been doing that for hundreds of years. If you can't take, don't give.

Turtwig

FullblownRose wrote: »

I already said there are people who are understandably anti catholic church for personal reasons. Youre conflating those with people who have not had direct experience of having any rights denied or atrocities perpetrated upon them yet they expound on their ill feeling towards the catholics as though they have a personal grievance with every catholic person.. I think catholics must live a very isolated life if they ''aren't used to ...being criticised'' conidering I see very vehement, misplaced and disproportionate criticism from other atheist acquaintances expressed on social networking sites on a very regular basis.!

It's perfectly posible and reasonable to express a view on public policies calmly and rationally, without being offensive to catholics. They can reasonably expect an absence of criticim that extends far beyond the matter of policy.

One doesn't need a personal experience to be able to empathise with others. What you're saying is akin to saying that you can't be outraged at the situation in Syria if you don't directly experience it. Many people are outraged at the church because they EMPATHISE with others. It could just have easily been themselves or their families and friends that were directly affected.

You're targeting that minority group of loons. Who will bash anything that isn't their belief e.g "Gaelic football is great, I've don't have an interest in cricket ergo it's sh1t." Those people will always ignorantly bash stuff and insult personalities. But they should never be allowed to drown out, or downplay, the valid expressions of others.

Social media is 99% idiotic comments anyway.

FullblownRose

_Redzer_ wrote: »

Why would you need to be personally affected by the Catholic Church in order to be against them? By your logic, anyone who isn't black or gay shouldn't care or get preoccupied by issues that don't personally affect them.

I don't have to be black to care or get involved about an issue of racism. If I think it's wrong, it's wrong in my view. Why would I step aside just because it doesn't affect me personally shows a lack of concern or care. How would any sort of social progression be achieved by that mindset?

The Catholic Church has carried out very serious atrocities in this country and they used to bash anyone who didn't conform with their ethos severely.

It's like the church has been hitting us over the head with the bible and now we say stop and they cry themselves as victims. They've been doing that for hundreds of years. If you can't take, don't give.

You see unable to separate the actions of those individuals responsible for the atrocities with the members of the r.c church as a whole. Your language is quite militant and combative. I don't personally feel that anyone has hit me over the head with a bible nor have I been forced coerced or indoctrinated, i simply excercised my free will and made my own mind up. I don't think it is logical to attempt to make a stand against inustice by attacking a whole religion any more than it would make sense to blame Nigeria for Boko Haram.

FullblownRose

Turtwig wrote: »

One doesn't need a personal experience to be able to empathise with others. What you're saying is akin to saying that you can't be outraged at the situation in Syria if you don't directly experience it. Many people are outraged at the church because they EMPATHISE with others. It could just have easily been themselves or their families and friends that were directly affected.

You're targeting that minority group of loons. Who will bash anything that isn't their belief e.g "Gaelic football is great, I've don't have an interest in cricket ergo it's sh1t." Those people will always ignorantly bash stuff and insult personalities. But they should never be allowed to drown out, or downplay, the valid expressions of others.

Social media is 99% idiotic comments anyway.

That's far from what I said actually. By deriding ordinary modern day catholics you arent empathising with victims. I do not think the ''loon' are in the minority- as I have said I very frequently see vitriolic remarks about catholics.

FullblownRose

You don't need to be personally affected to be appaled and to empathise but I think indiscriminate vitriol aimed at anyone who is still associated with the religion is a very poor and ineffective way to express your empathy. It's not logical, either.

jank

It's just fashionable now, people say they have good reasons to but you never hear those same people bash Islam near as much for example where the treatment of minorities is much much worse.

Turtwig

jank wrote: »

It's just fashionable now, people say they have good reasons to but you never hear those same people bash Islam near as much for example where the treatment of minorities is much much worse.

Funny thing is you rarely hear anyone, including Catholic demographics, bash Islam because well fear of axe wielding nutters do tend to have an influence on the confidence of people to state stuff in public.

That said, people do criticise Islam. It wasn't Islam though that played the dominant role in the events in Ireland. So it's a bit like expecting rugby fans to bash the FAI for problems in the rugby administration.

Dozen Wicked Words

jank wrote: »

It's just fashionable now, people say they have good reasons to but you never hear those same people bash Islam near as much for example where the treatment of minorities is much much worse.

It's very true, but also probably a lot less relevant to people who grew up in Ireland.

_Redzer_

FullblownRose wrote: »

You see unable to separate the actions of those individuals responsible for the atrocities with the members of the r.c church as a whole. Your language is quite militant and combative. I don't personally feel that anyone has hit me over the head with a bible nor have I been forced coerced or indoctrinated, i simply excercised my free will and made my own mind up. I don't think it is logical to attempt to make a stand against inustice by attacking a whole religion any more than it would make sense to blame Nigeria for Boko Haram.

The church as a whole fights against me constantly. If I'm not a deviant I'm a pedophole apparently. So yes, I have good reason to be combative.

They constantly shove their ideals over me by wanting me to adhere to their world view by concerning themselves with civil matters they've nothing to do with.

So if I'm not to attack the church as a whole and the ethos they teach and preach, who am I to blame instead?

jank

Turtwig wrote: »

Funny thing is you rarely hear anyone, including Catholic demographics, bash Islam because well fear of axe wielding nutters do tend to have an influence on the confidence of people to state stuff in public.

That said, people do criticise Islam. It wasn't Islam though that played the dominant role in the events in Ireland. So it's a bit like expecting rugby fans to bash the FAI for problems in the rugby administration.

Well if you bash Islam in public more often then not you are accused of being an islamophobe and a supporter of some right wing scary party. It comes at a price, while bashing Christians or Catholics is like picking apples, easy and more often then not is supported by a certain demography. There is a big mob mentality at play here.

jank

_Redzer_ wrote: »

The church as a whole fights against me constantly. If I'm not a deviant I'm a pedophole apparently. So yes, I have good reason to be combative.

They constantly shove their ideals over me by wanting me to adhere to their world view by concerning themselves with civil matters they've nothing to do with.

So if I'm not to attack the church as a whole and the ethos they teach and preach, who am I to blame instead?

It might come to a shock but people and organisations have a right to air their opinions. Freedom of religion is not freedom from religion.

_Redzer_

jank wrote: »

It might come to a shock but people and organisations have a right to air their opinions. Freedom of religion is not freedom from religion.

By that very statement why are you then bitching about people bashing the church?

Freedom of expression and all that.

FullblownRose

_Redzer_ wrote: »

The church as a whole fights against me constantly. If I'm not a deviant I'm a pedophole apparently. So yes, I have good reason to be combative.

They constantly shove their ideals over me by wanting me to adhere to their world view by concerning themselves with civil matters they've nothing to do with.

So if I'm not to attack the church as a whole and the ethos they teach and preach, who am I to blame instead?

I see where you are coming from alright. I don't think the church should have any role in secular matters and I'm glad I'm not a member of the organisation because even if it is to evolve it will never evolve quickly enough at this stage. All that can be done is to remain focused on tackling these issues I suppose.

anto9

The Catholic Church is evil .Prove me wrong .As well as Child abuse and cover up they helped the Nazi in the WW2.
(i am an ex-Catholic ,now leaning toward Buddhism)

krudler

jank wrote: »

It might come to a shock but people and organisations have a right to air their opinions. Freedom of religion is not freedom from religion.

And people have a right to disagree with those opinions

Daith

jank wrote: »

It might come to a shock but people and organisations have a right to air their opinions. Freedom of religion is not freedom from religion.

Yeah yeah everyone has an opinion. Having an opinion doesn't mean that opinion is right and can't be criticized though.

A right to have an opinion. Not to air them otherwise we wouldn't have libel and defamation laws.

LordSutch

As a non RC looking in from the outside, I get the impression that the RC Church 'in Ireland' is undergoing something of a mini reformation of sorts in recent years. which is a good thing IMO.

Subtle changes.

stefanovich

Bashing Catholics is perfectly fine. The only religion you can't bash is Islam...

Arthur Beesley

OP, have you ever bashed the bishop?

If so, then you are a hypocrite.

gctest50

Arguing with a Christian is like playing chess with a pigeon.

You could be the greatest player in the world, but the pigeon will still knock over all the pieces, **** on the board and strut around triumphantly.

5uspect

So deserved criticism of a vile institution that went for centuries without it is now Catholic bashing? The current fear of criticising Islam is not much different to the societal power once wielded by the Catholic Church.

If you're going to indoctrinate generation after generation in our schools you're going to have to accept that people will reject and criticise the bull**** they were told when more and more people go onto secular third level education.

Maphisto

iwantmydinner wrote: »

You say that as if the Catholic Church wasn't an organisation that presided over the systematic rape of children, followed by a systematic cover up. As if it didn't enslave young, pregnant women and steal their children, selling the babies for profit. As if it didn't starve 800 babies to death and then bury them in a mass, unmarked grave.

Exactly RCC has had it coming for years.

Then add in the popular culture references: Evelyn, Magdlin Sisters, Philomena - that's just a few.

Even if RCC did not have all this baggage, other religions have avoided it. Other religions have the baggage but have managed to avoid the pop culture.

Even without all this religion will die as the internet approaches universal coverage.

jank

_Redzer_ wrote: »

By that very statement why are you then bitching about people bashing the church?

Freedom of expression and all that.

And now your bitching about me bitching about you bitching about catholics....yawn.

Regardless, your post was in response to how the RCC 'fights against you constantly by airing views you do not like'. There are lots of organisations that are political, national, religious etc. that air their views regularly which I do not agree with but I would not draw the lines where one has to 'fight back', life is too short for that. People make a mountain out of a mole hill regarding this question as if the RCC is some all powerful force that somehow dictates everybit how someone lives their lives today. It just borders on the usual whine line tactics that those with too much time get up to. Keyboard warriors of the internet unite! should be the atheist slogan

anto9

The Catholic church deserves to be bashed to the ground and a stake driven through its evil heart .The amount of misery they have caused on this Earth is vast .
(me ,ex-Catholic ,and only ever a Catholic as i was brought up as one and told not to question but have faith lol )

Dan_Solo

It (and other religions) still exist so it hasn't been bashed half hard enough. Hate the religion, not the religious though of course.

Wibbs

--LOS-- wrote: »

Peoples memories are not that short and it's completely warranted.

Or maybe they are? If this was 1954 and not 2014, the chances are high, if not a given that you would be a crawthumper, a god botherer, along with the majority in this thread and I think that's a part of the swing the other way.

jank wrote: »

Well if you bash Islam in public more often then not you are accused of being an islamophobe and a supporter of some right wing scary party. It comes at a price, while bashing Christians or Catholics is like picking apples, easy and more often then not is supported by a certain demography. There is a big mob mentality at play here.

Sure, there always is in such things. Just like there was a mob mentality back in the day. The Catholic church in Ireland didn't exist in a vacuum. Parents, grandparents and great grandparents were its support system. For both good* or ill.

It's in the nature of all cultures. "Oh I could never be a Catholic/Nazi/Communist/Whatever". Sorry, but oh yes you would. Maybe not an ardent or very active one. The Himmlers of the world are generally outliers, but so are the rebels of the world. The vast majority of people go along with things. Turn a blind eye. Feign ignorance. Bend to authority. Go with the flow, like starlings in the wind. Look at this and threads like it. Like I say, I reckon the swing the other way these days is a reaction to that. Deep down I reckon people subconsciously know this and as a sop to themselves cry "not me" and join the chorus of the mob.





*Long before pampered popstars were warbling about feeding the world a large chunk of a generation of Irish men and women were on the ground far from home bringing education and healthcare to some of the poorest in the world. They're almost entirely forgotten today, except in some of those corners of the world. That's left off the balance sheet and I think that's a shame.

RobertKK

Catholic bashers are only bigots, right?

_Brian

I Think the problem in many cases is that Catholics are seen to support a less than clean organisation in the church.
Many I know attend mass for the religion rather than any unwavering support of the church as a whole.

We were reared catholic, if I thought about it much I'd have to change religion as I don't believe many if the fundamental beleifs. As it is I've become a sort of distant "a la cart" catholic.

So My point is that many Catholics have seperated their religion from the church and are in no way supportive of the church body itself.

I think this current Pope will slowly herald in wide sweeping changes, providing he's not killed off by the hard liners like John Paul the first was in the year of the three Popes.

Legs.Eleven

Where do you encounter this "bashing" out of curiosity? Do you see people in real life (enough people to justify your anger) insulting other Catholics? I don't personally and I live in a deeply divided country when it comes to religion.

I see it on the internet mostly but that's about the height of it. I see all kind of "bashing" on the internet of every kind of people. Why are Catholics being singled out?



I hate the Catholic church but I'd never dream of insulting a Catholic (including a few family members) about their beliefs or their choice of religion. I'd actually question just how common this is outside the internet.

Chattastrophe!

I'm atheist, I have no belief in or affiliation to any particular religion, however I have nothing against religious people.

There is one religion that unfortunately has a direct impact on my day-to-day life. This is Catholicism. I have a child, therefore I need to think about schools, therefore - the way the country is now - I need take this into consideration when I decide where I want to live and work, as I (understandably) don't want him indoctrinated into any faith.

This is really unfair. I should have the option to live anywhere I want to in this country, and to have my child attend a school where he won't be indoctrinated into (or influenced by) any specific faith.

Catholic schools should certainly be an option, but not the default.

Until we have the option of indoctrination-free schooling for all children, I think it's a bit much for anyone to be giving out about "Catholic-bashing". :rolleyes:

I just want nothing to do with the religion ... I just wish they'd do me the same favour, get out of our society, let those who wish to practice it do so, but leave the rest of us alone!

wendell borton

Some Catholics like to be bashed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_of_the_flesh

gctest50

Ireland had its own turbo-gimp : Matt Talbot

catbear

Is pointing out an organisations own contradictions bashing?

I would consider it helpful.

FTA69

jank wrote: »

Well if you bash Islam in public more often then not you are accused of being an islamophobe and a supporter of some right wing scary party. It comes at a price, while bashing Christians or Catholics is like picking apples, easy and more often then not is supported by a certain demography. There is a big mob mentality at play here.

The fact is though, that Islamophobia is a major pillar of the far right in Europe today. Thankfully we've largely moved on from the days where people portray blacks as inferior beings, instead this has been replaced with the far-right attempting to create some "Battle of the Civilisations" in various countries over religion. In places like England and France this is often intrinsically linked with traditional racist and xenophobic sentiment.

As an athiest I think all religions are a load of sh*t and I've no problem criticising faith-based approaches. However, I can also see that most of the anti-Islamic criticism in the country I live with often comes with a pretty sinister agenda.

Likewise your notion that Islam is off-limits is largely fallacious I think, if anything Islam and Muslims are often demonised in the media and the body politic. One only has to look at some of the statements from the likes of Robinson and UKIP to see that.

cabb8ge

FullblownRose wrote: »

You see unable to separate the actions of those individuals responsible for the atrocities with the members of the r.c church as a whole. Your language is quite militant and combative. I don't personally feel that anyone has hit me over the head with a bible nor have I been forced coerced or indoctrinated, i simply excercised my free will and made my own mind up. I don't think it is logical to attempt to make a stand against inustice by attacking a whole religion any more than it would make sense to blame Nigeria for Boko Haram.

Hatred is like that, unfortunately.

Even on thread trying to highlight the sickening amount of catholic bashing in after hours, a good few posts are insulting and bashing the catholic. It's getting very tiresome reading the constant crap sprouted by the anti-catholic brigade.

catallus

The legacy of the 20th century has proved that the abandonment of religious belief is a grave folly. The surrender of the transcendental is mere vanity which plunges all of mankind in jeopardy. The imagination of man is nothing but evil for all the long day! To depend on it as a moral compass is the path to Abaddon.

Wibbs

eh... wut? *looks at shoes* Not sure if serious.

weldoninhio

Anyone who believes in a higher being in this day and age deserves ridicule. Be they Catholic, Islamic, Protestant. It's outdated, and ridiculous. The hypocrisy of these organisations, all of them, is pathetic.

Delirium

catallus wrote: »

The legacy of the 20th century has proved that the abandonment of religious belief is a grave folly. The surrender of the transcendental is mere vanity which plunges all of mankind in jeopardy. The imagination of man is nothing but evil for all the long day! To depend on it as a moral compass is the path to Abaddon.

Tell that to the unmarried mothers (and their children that were given up for adoption) shipped such places as the one in Tuam.

FTA69

Ailani Slow Sunburn wrote: »

Even on thread trying to highlight the sickening amount of catholic bashing in after hours, a good few posts are insulting and bashing the catholic. It's getting very tiresome reading the constant crap sprouted by the anti-catholic brigade.

Can you not see why people would be understandably aggrieved with Catholicism in Ireland?