King's Inns 2014 - a spanner in the works?

Behind you Joey

Hello all,

I was set to apply to sit the King's Inns entrance examinations today when my parents read a pair of articles in today's issue of the Irish Independent, and began inevitably to worry about my future prospects upon graduation from the BL degree - http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/bar-council-favours-reform-but-lets-have-a-proper-debate-30316152.html (I can't seem to find the other article which highlights the fact that an average of 80 barristers per year are leaving the law library, the highest figure to date and a very shocking statistic all things considered).

Thankfully the standard deadline of the 31st of May for applications has been pushed back in an unprecedented twist to the 16th of June in light of requests from some students to postpone the deadline - https://twitter.com/KingsInns/status/472365109885800449

I'm not sure whether this is due to the fact that the annual Bar Council conference is be held in Westport over this bank holiday weekend or is the King's Inns as a society, under severe pressure to ensure that they reach their quota of entrance exam applicants per year. Nonetheless, it seems to me that they are worried about the evident lack of interest in the barrister-at-law degree in the current economic climate.

I'm a 22 year old, BCL with French Law graduate and seek your advice in deciding whether to apply to sit the examinations before June 16th. In the meantime, my parents & I will mull it over and try and suss out my options.

Apologies for the long-winded post and many thanks for responses in advance.

Tom Young

There is never a right time. If it's what you want, get on with it.

feargale

Law is one of the professions that is particularly affected by economic fluctuations. In good times lawyers, particularly barristers, make good money. When times are bad they are especially bad for them. How good or bad will the economy be when you qualify? That is the question, and I don't think the wisest person in Ireland can give you the answer. I wouldn't dare try to predict that. If you find yourself qualified and not thriving, at least you have a valuable qualification, it's relatively easy to disentangle yourself from whatever professional commitments you have. You could then look to other openings here or abroad, in business, journalism etc. or the law in another jurisdiction. You have a difficult choice. Don't take any of this as saying you should or you shouldn't.

johnnyskeleton

Just for some perspective, this article was originally published in 2006 ie the boomiest of boom years:

http://m.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/tribunal-riches-entice-young-to-the-bar-26409624.html

seb65

First, it depends on what your view of "success" is.

Second, if you're good at what you do, you'll always be successful.

Third, it's a very valuable qualification to have and would go a long way towards getting you into other employment, if you don't make it at the bar.

Finally, because it opens many doors to steady, permanent jobs, many people will leave to take those opportunities instead. I wouldn't be dismayed by the number leaving.

Behind you Joey

Tom Young wrote: »

There is never a right time. If it's what you want, get on with it.

Re Tom Young, I would argue that there is in fact certainly a better time to qualify as a barrister. Maybe 15 or 20 years ago, when there were a lot less barristers on the Dublin circuit compared to today's figures, when legal fees for barristers were higher and obviously when there was no economic crash.

seb65 wrote: »

First, it depends on what your view of "success" is.

Second, if you're good at what you do, you'll always be successful.

Third, it's a very valuable qualification to have and would go a long way towards getting you into other employment, if you don't make it at the bar.

Finally, because it opens many doors to steady, permanent jobs, many people will leave to take those opportunities instead. I wouldn't be dismayed by the number leaving.

Some very comprehensive points here, thanks. The third & last points respectively ring home for me. I've always considered that if I found that the Bar was not for me after my deviling years(planning on doing one year civil & another year criminal) that I would apply for a job in the Department of Foreign Affairs or the EU, the UN, etc. In the hope that the French Law aspect of my undergraduate degree as well as holding a BL degree would aid me in my search for prospective employment abroad.

Just a stand-alone point which I know is completely subjective; do we think that as a profession 'the barrister' is a dying one? The King's Inns society seems to be advertising their degree courses more than ever this year as well as extending the closing date for applications by more than two weeks, which is unprecedented as far as I know.

To be honest, I'm still fairly uncertain, but feel like I should give it a go as it's always been a dream of mine excluding the economic and financial constraints.

errlloyd

There is no increase in fees for applicants who apply before the 16th

Behind you Joey

errlloyd wrote: »

There is no increase in fees for applicants who apply before the 16th

Yes I'm aware of that thanks. It's going to be the increased rate of €1000 from the 16th of June to the 1st of July as far as I'm aware.

Question is; with an average of 80 barristers per year leaving the law library, would it be foolish to start the barrister-at-law degree?

Pro Hoc Vice

Behind you Joey wrote: »

Yes I'm aware of that thanks. It's going to be the increased rate of €1000 from the 16th of June to the 1st of July as far as I'm aware.

Question is; with an average of 80 barristers per year leaving the law library, would it be foolish to start the barrister-at-law degree?

The Bar is like any business some people do well others don't. It's a great job if you are earning a living but can be terrible if the money is not coming in. Expect none or little income for first 3 years with slow increases year on year up to a reasonable income by year 10. But it is a slog but if it was not then everyone would do it.

stringy

Just coming to the end of third year. Will I leave? I hope not, I have a couple of big cases to keep me here for another 12 months, which should be lucrative.

To date, in three years, I've been paid around 2k, I'm owed about 10k.

Library fees and entrance fees amount to about 7k, so I'm out of pocket on top of the 22k I paid the Inns.

So, should I leave? Perhaps.

What would I do in hindsight? I'd probably go and do an MBA. That was my decision, BL or MBA. I had a nice job, 50k a year, in my mid/late 20s, and I gave it up. Pity the fool! Do I regret it? Sometimes, but not all the time.

Would I recommend doing the BL now? No, not at the moment.

If you want to struggle for 3-7 years, without any guarantee of success, then go for it. The Library is emptying out, there's fewer people hanging around, you can see it physically. Sometimes it feels like a hobby rather than a job. A colleague was at the Annual Conference this weekend, and he told me it was the most depressing and pessimistic weekend. So, all is not well at the Bar. This isn't an attempt at scaremongering, but it is the truth.

Good luck with your decision.

number13

stringy wrote: »

Just coming to the end of third year. Will I leave? I hope not, I have a couple of big cases to keep me here for another 12 months, which should be lucrative.

To date, in three years, I've been paid around 2k, I'm owed about 10k.

Library fees and entrance fees amount to about 7k, so I'm out of pocket on top of the 22k I paid the Inns.

So, should I leave? Perhaps.

What would I do in hindsight? I'd probably go and do an MBA. That was my decision, BL or MBA. I had a nice job, 50k a year, in my mid/late 20s, and I gave it up. Pity the fool! Do I regret it? Sometimes, but not all the time.

Would I recommend doing the BL now? No, not at the moment.

If you want to struggle for 3-7 years, without any guarantee of success, then go for it. The Library is emptying out, there's fewer people hanging around, you can see it physically. Sometimes it feels like a hobby rather than a job. A colleague was at the Annual Conference this weekend, and he told me it was the most depressing and pessimistic weekend. So, all is not well at the Bar. This isn't an attempt at scaremongering, but it is the truth.

Good luck with your decision.

I too was looking at doing the barrister at law however I was not going to devil. I thought the BL would look good on my CV as I have just completed my law degree. However after reading your message I seriously considering my original idea of MBA

Hippo

The BL remains a great qualification and an excellent training, even if you don't intend to go into practice. I would suggest that not all MBAs are equal, and that in many cases a BL would prepare you at least as well for a career in business.

johnnyskeleton

stringy wrote: »

A colleague was at the Annual Conference this weekend, and he told me it was the most depressing and pessimistic weekend.

Why so? Maybe he had a bad pint?

nuac

stringy wrote: »

Just coming to the end of third year. Will I leave? I hope not, I have a couple of big cases to keep me here for another 12 months, which should be lucrative.

To date, in three years, I've been paid around 2k, I'm owed about 10k.

Library fees and entrance fees amount to about 7k, so I'm out of pocket on top of the 22k I paid the Inns.

So, should I leave? Perhaps.

What would I do in hindsight? I'd probably go and do an MBA. That was my decision, BL or MBA. I had a nice job, 50k a year, in my mid/late 20s, and I gave it up. Pity the fool! Do I regret it? Sometimes, but not all the time.

Would I recommend doing the BL now? No, not at the moment.

If you want to struggle for 3-7 years, without any guarantee of success, then go for it. The Library is emptying out, there's fewer people hanging around, you can see it physically. Sometimes it feels like a hobby rather than a job. A colleague was at the Annual Conference this weekend, and he told me it was the most depressing and pessimistic weekend. So, all is not well at the Bar. This isn't an attempt at scaremongering, but it is the truth.

Good luck with your decision.

I think the excessive tribunal fees of some years ago have created the perception that there is a lot of easy money available at the Bar.

Sadly not so.

there is an increasing demand for legal services, but often those needing the service cannot pay the cost, and the various legai aid schemes are being cut to the bone.

Hope the Westport conference went well. Local reports from the Westport-Achill Greenway is that that many barristers were not seen on bikes since petrol rationing days of WW2.

Behind you Joey

Just looked up the preparatory courses offered by Independent Colleges and the likes of Griffith College and they come in at a mere €1800! Absolutely shocked, may just buy the manuals off someone at less expense.

Hippo

If it's of any use, numbers entering the library seem to be dropping recently.

Flecktarn

Hippo wrote: »

If it's of any use, numbers entering the library seem to be dropping recently.

Really? I hope that's the case. Was just talking to my neighbour there, he was called to the Bar in 2012 and there were 160 in his year. Despite the fact he went on to say that just over half that number went on to practice, I was stunned by the sheer volume of students.

Hotcuppa

Hey guys , I am on the verge of a breakdown , I have been studying for weeks but it's two weeks away and I feel like it's getting away from me !!! I started reading the contract past exam papers and I cannot spot the issues on any of the questions !!! Has anyone out there sat these and what advice would you give to me!! I need to pass and I have put in the work but it's how to approach the questions ??? Help, on the verge of a break down[/QUOTE]

Potus

Hotcuppa wrote: »

Hey guys , I am on the verge of a breakdown , I have been studying for weeks but it's two weeks away and I feel like it's getting away from me !!! I started reading the contract past exam papers and I cannot spot the issues on any of the questions !!! Has anyone out there sat these and what advice would you give to me!! I need to pass and I have put in the work but it's how to approach the questions ??? Help, on the verge of a break down

[/quote]

Hotcuppa maybe take a day or two off???You don't want to burn out this close. I remember doing the entrance exams and it wasn't a nice week to put it mildly. Almost walked out on the weds but a m8 pulled me back in. I am so glad I stuck it out and got through the week. When you finish that week you'll be able for anything believe you me. So stick with it but sounds like a day or two away from the books is what would benefit you most at this stage. Best of luck to you and all else sitting them and hope you do good.

Hotcuppa

Thanks Potus. Really kind ! Did you go down to the Inns in the end ? How did you get on in the exams ? Sorry for all the questions it's just nobody else I know is doing or has done. Curiosity is consuming me

Potus

Hotcuppa wrote: »

Thanks Potus. Really kind ! Did you go down to the Inns in the end ? How did you get on in the exams ? Sorry for all the questions it's just nobody else I know is doing or has done. Curiosity is consuming me

Well I got all the exams. I found them the most challenging I've ever sat. I was debating going down to the law library but I stuck with my job because I'm employed now as an in house legal adviser. Some day though I do intend going to the library. As for the exams I stuck with doing out previous questions. I had a very good lecturer in college who always began class with going through previous questions and how to answer them. So by the end of my final year I had a good set of model answers. I don't know what way you studied but I found previous questions the way to go for me.

I found once I knew the basis of the law then the questions were not as bad. They are not looking for you to set out the law from a-z but to apply the legal principles to a set of circumstances they present. If you know the basic principles then try to think on broad terms. So for eg what would I want best for my client and do I have enough to get it for them. What has the other side got as a plus for their case and how can I negate that. Hope that helps but get back to me if I can help any more specifically.

Hotcuppa

Great advice Potus ! I have been doing past questions over the past few days and it does settle me, firstly to see that the same issues seem to come up time and time again but also that I am spotting some (not all) of the issues that need to be addressed . As I said my main concern is getting it all in and remembering it and keeping the stamina during that week to do well and study that night for the next exam. Thanks a million for the advice. I really appreciate it

Potus

Hotcuppa wrote: »

Great advice Potus ! I have been doing past questions over the past few days and it does settle me, firstly to see that the same issues seem to come up time and time again but also that I am spotting some (not all) of the issues that need to be addressed . As I said my main concern is getting it all in and remembering it and keeping the stamina during that week to do well and study that night for the next exam. Thanks a million for the advice. I really appreciate it

Hotcuppa you will NOT remember all facts as you study (unless you're a genius) but the skill is to understand the principles as you study in the sense that a light comes on each time i.e. "yeah I get what this means" and then in the exam if it comes up you will recognise the issue and remember the principle.

Glad you have also found previous answers a good way to study as it was most of the way of the way I did mine. Just read over your previous answers and know what the principles are from it. The problem is that a question on the paper will probably contain a number of issues so it is really about issue spotting, hitting it and moving on to the next issue. I know this is very hard to get across here but I think you have the gist of what I'm on about. It also sounds like you are more prepared the you realise. Best of luck.

Hotcuppa

You are a saint ! You have totally relaxed me ! Just one final question in relation to case names , the sheer volume of cases is just unbelievable and trying to remember even half is challenging. How bad does it look to the examiner if I just said "in a case decided in this area with the following .... X was decided in relation to this area and just give a conclusion. I am having serious problems remembering all the case names. Scenarios in the cases is not a problem. Does this look infantile ??

Potus

Hotcuppa wrote: »

You are a saint ! You have totally relaxed me ! Just one final question in relation to case names , the sheer volume of cases is just unbelievable and trying to remember even half is challenging. How bad does it look to the examiner if I just said "in a case decided in this area with the following .... X was decided in relation to this area and just give a conclusion. I am having serious problems remembering all the case names. Scenarios in the cases is not a problem. Does this look infantile ??

Just glad to help hotcuppa. I had people help me out too. On the issue of case names, I remember being told by my lecturers not to get too worked up about remembering case names. To quote principles as you have suggested appears to be accepted and examiners I think are sympathetic to the pressures of an exam setting when it comes to case names not being in the top of your tongue. It's great if you can remember the case names but I don't believe it's a make or break for a question. It would however be a minimum requirement to remember the main cases establishing important principles for a given subject, for example the o'brien case for constitutional and say carbolic smoke ball for contract and so on. Hope that helps and best of luck. Just relax, read over your previous answers and don't stress. If you've been working away up til now you will hopefully do a lot better then you feel you will. We have all been there just don't panic and don't give up. Take a few days off to settle and let your brain rest. You will have a heavy week of the exams so don't go into it drained.

hullaballoo

Remembering case names is very much secondary to showing you understand the law. I never remember case names - my brain doesn't work that way - so, for exams, I would just briefly describe the facts or a unique aspect of the case in question.

Be aware that my above method does take slightly longer in the exam because it might be a couple of sentences rather than a few words.

Bepolite

hullaballoo wrote: »

Remembering case names is very much secondary to showing you understand the law. I never remember case names - my brain doesn't work that way - so, for exams, I would just briefly describe the facts or a unique aspect of the case in question.

Be aware that my above method does take slightly longer in the exam because it might be a couple of sentences rather than a few words.

From a friend who took them last year, you'll be grand without all the case names but apparently (and I've only her word for this and the fact she passed 4/5) the tort marker is a bit of a stickler.

Hotcuppa

Bepolite wrote: »

From a friend who took them last year, you'll be grand without all the case names but apparently (and I've only her word for this and the fact she passed 4/5) the tort marker is a bit of a stickler.

Thanks for the heads up !! Did your friend get in on the dispensation of over 45% for the failed subject ??

Bepolite

Hotcuppa wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up !! Did your friend get in on the dispensation of over 45% for the failed subject ??

Nope.

Hotcuppa

Bepolite wrote: »

Nope.

Oh wow!!! Well that has just gone and made me puke !!!!! Funny talking to people and you don't really hear the stories of people failing but obviously it happens ! I'm terrified now . Really don't know what way to approach the final week. Any suggestions ??

Bepolite

She there in the library working away a year older, a year wiser and none thew worse for it. If it doesn't happen this time round, there is always next year.

Hotcuppa

Well fair play to her !!! Fingers crossed for her any everyone sitting it this year . Have faith all

conorh91

Interesting thread.

Some senior legal professionals seem to view the numbers of students being churned out of the Kings Inns as a bit of a joke.

This has had a number of consequences. For example, barristers practicing with a weak understanding of the law in areas they claim to have competence. Yes, that's probably been the case since law practice began, but with a dramatic increase in the number of barristers in circulation, young practitioners may be far slower to develop professional skills or awareness.

Questions arise over the quality of graduates being recruited and called over. This may manifest itself in weak professional skills, above, or even weak language skills.

One example that stands out is a judge explaining the meaning of the word disinterest, and how it was distinct from non-interest, to a barrister appearing before the Circuit Court.

There is also a problem with people calling themselves barristers who have not practiced for many years, or have never done so. The rules regarding professional titles should be tightened.

Hippo

conorh91 wrote: »

This may manifest itself in weak professional skills, above, or even weak language skills.

One example that stands out is a judge explaining the meaning of the word disinterest, and how it was distinct from non-interest, to a barrister appearing before the Circuit Court.

You could find yourself explaining that particular one to plenty of senior professionals as well. It's just a common error, and not necessarily indicative of generally 'weak language skills'.

As you suggest, I'm sure senior professionals have complained about the quality of the new intake in whatever field since the dawn of time. By way of contrast, a senior barrister told me recently that the verbal advocacy skills of younger barristers was much better now than in his early years, owing to the emphasis placed on the skill at the Inns. Make of that what you will.

conorh91

Fait point. I also neglected to mention the positive educational reforms you rightly point to.

But educational improvements are of doubtful relevance when what truly matters is professional experience.

Diminishing quality is a risk in any supply chain where output is increasing at a rate disproportionate to resources; in this case, resources=experience.

Although litigation has increased, it has not increased at a rate that would justify the increase in the numbers called to the Bar. New barristers may then find it harder to get work, and a negative feedback system establishes itself, whereby an ever-increasing number of inexperienced barristers share a diminishing availability of work.

This system harms talented practitioners from succeeding in their careers. I would go so far as to say i think the Inns are being a little irresponsible in their marketing of places to graduates, many of whom have no chance of surviving at the Bar, and to an unprecedented magnitude.

Bepolite

Conorh - I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make. Surely having a weak competency in an area results in no more work in that area?

As for educational innovations it seems to me the more academic institutions have lagged behind the likes of UL and even GCD in terms of getting clinical skills into law graduates. Arguably it's not the job of undergraduate lecturers to instill this and the job of the Inns but isn't that what Deviling is for?

I don't really take your point on 'negative feed back', I would have thought Darwinism prevents this from happening.

conorh91

Bepolite wrote: »

I don't really take your point on 'negative feed back', I would have thought Darwinism prevents this from happening.

No the negative-feedback loop impedes efficient market clearing.

The rate of market clearing lags behind the rate at which the market is flooded.

Think of the classic school algebra problem, of a bath being filled with water faster than the plughole can drain it.

In legal practice, individuals will have invested thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of euro, and 5+ years of their lives preparing for a law career.

As a consequence of this investment, they are reluctant to quit after just one year devilling. They may take two, three, or even five, six years to figure out that it just isn't viable; they don't have the capacity to succeed.

And although survival of the fittest still occurs, it occurs below optimal efficiency. Barristers who could become very competent under an efficient system are, as a consequence of the flooding of the market, very slow to develop competence. They leave. They are replaced by a revolving door of low-skilled crops of barristers who themselves will eventually quit, but often not until a number of years have elapsed.

My point is not necessarily that litigation suffers (although having an ever-present abcess of inexperienced barristers hanging around for five years certainly may do so), but primarily it is unfair on entrants to the Bar.

This is comparable to something which, in economics and commercial law, is referred to as dumping the market.

Bepolite

I see your point, I'm not sure if I agree wth it but I certianly see merit too it. I've not enough experiance either way to commit, so firmly on the fence. One point I did want to make is that I don't think the Inns is see as only a route to practice, I know quite a few use it as a stepping stone in house jobs, although perhaps this only backs up your point on 'barristers'.

A massive strength to the Irish system though, imo, is the accesability. Relative to the US system we pay peanuts and you've a BL and a year experiance, even if you do end up working in Tesco. I'd never have to the oppitunity to go down the road to becoming a lawyer in the US.

(I'm not suggesting that you're looking for thr US system.)

LegalChef

I appreciate I am slightly off topic, but I am curious as to what exactly one does upon completion of their time as a devil?
In the sense that if there is such a lack of work, does one ultimately 'hang around' the Law Library, simply studying/networking in the hope of an opportunity to present itself?

Pro Hoc Vice

LegalChef wrote: »

I appreciate I am slightly off topic, but I am curious as to what exactly one does upon completion of their time as a devil?
In the sense that if there is such a lack of work, does one ultimately 'hang around' the Law Library, simply studying/networking in the hope of an opportunity to present itself?

In simple terms yes. Maybe write a book or a few articles and just hope and pray.

johnnyskeleton

conorh91 wrote: »

This system harms talented practitioners from succeeding in their careers. I would go so far as to say i think the Inns are being a little irresponsible in their marketing of places to graduates, many of whom have no chance of surviving at the Bar, and to an unprecedented magnitude.

Is there a source for these senior legal figures? I know the barcouncil occassionally says there are too many barristers for comfort, but i dont think they have criticised the kings inns.

As to the irresponsibility, where do you draw the line though? The official position of the inns is that anyone who proves that they can do the 5 exams in a week to the requisite standard is admitted, and people only pass the exams if the inns are satisfied they have met the criteria.

So, if it was decided that there were too many barristers at present, wouldnt that suggest that the kings inns should have a civil service style recruitment freeze, with new applicants only being accepted when the market conditions become more favourable again? However, there is nohing to suggest that someone who qualifies pre recruitment freeze is better at lawyerig that someone who is now frozen out of the market.

I also have problems with how one might define too many barristers or too little work. Without wanting to sound like an advocate of milton friedman, surely he market is the besr mechanism to decide this?

johnnyskeleton

LegalChef wrote: »

I appreciate I am slightly off topic, but I am curious as to what exactly one does upon completion of their time as a devil?
In the sense that if there is such a lack of work, does one ultimately 'hang around' the Law Library, simply studying/networking in the hope of an opportunity to present itself?

Hang around in court looking barristerry and hope some solicitors take pity on you is a fairly time honoured option, although people tend to do this less often now. In crime theres a whole pile of badly paid district court work that needs doing.

NoQuarter

conorh91 wrote: »

There is also a problem with people calling themselves barristers who have not practiced for many years, or have never done so. The rules regarding professional titles should be tightened.

What would you suggest?

LutherBlissett

Is it true that a chambers system is coming in? If this can set up barriers to entry to the market like it does in the English system, might it alleviate market saturation somewhat?

What would happen to young barristers if a chambers system was brought in, would they have to gather together and try and take in as much as low level work as possible?

conorh91

NoQuarter wrote: »

What would you suggest?

That the Bar Council should follow its own rules and maintain a fuller register of practicing Barristers, whether or not those Barristers are members of the Law Library.

If that is opposed by the Law Library (and I can see why it could) then it should be maintained by the Kings Inns.

In either case, the professional title should be restricted to individuals on that register.

If any complaint is upheld against a Barrister on that register, then that should be published on the register, for such a period of time as the Kings Inns or the Bar Council thinks appropriate.

I think a little more transparency would be helpful to public trust in such an important legal service.

Pro Hoc Vice

conorh91 wrote: »

That the Bar Council should follow its own rules and maintain a fuller register of practicing Barristers, whether or not those Barristers are members of the Law Library.

If that is opposed by the Law Library (and I can see why it could) then it should be maintained by the Kings Inns.

In either case, the professional title should be restricted to individuals on that register.

If any complaint is upheld against a Barrister on that register, then that should be published on the register, for such a period of time as the Kings Inns or the Bar Council thinks appropriate.

I think a little more transparency would be helpful to public trust in such an important legal service.

Is there a problem that I some how missed of hordes of persons who have gained the degree Barrister at Law somehow holding them selves out as practicing barristers when they are not.

Its simple when a persons gains the Degree Barrister at Law and is called to the Bar before the Chief Justice he or she is to put it simply a Barrister, a barrister can be either in practice or not, but they remain a Barrister with a right of audience before all courts in the State.

If a person is found to act in a manner that is unbecoming a barrister he can be removed as has only to my knowledge happened once. But until he or she is so removed they remain a Barrister.

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-lawyer-struck-off-for-disgraceful-misconduct-328101-Jan2012/

NoQuarter

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Is there a problem that I some how missed of hordes of persons who have gained the degree Barrister at Law somehow holding them selves out as practicing barristers when they are not.

Its simple when a persons gains the Degree Barrister at Law and is called to the Bar before the Chief Justice he or she is to put it simply a Barrister, a barrister can be either in practice or not, but they remain a Barrister with a right of audience before all courts in the State.

I agree. I simply dont get the previous post. Conorh91 are you suggesting that if one leaves the law library and practice and goes in-house or into academia they should be stripped of their qualification?

conorh91

NoQuarter wrote: »

are you suggesting that if one leaves the law library and practice and goes in-house or into academia they should be stripped of their qualification?

Not necessarily. It would be a bit like CPD, where they'd have to be engaged in work that is directly relevant to the practice of law.

And the title wouldn't be "stripped"; it could be used if they returned to practice at the Bar or continued to engage in the practice of law.

I don't see what's difficult to understand.

If a Client or a Solciitor wishes to consult a register of practicing Barristers, he or she should be able to do so.

People who were called over in 1960 and are now in journalism or farming shouldn't be using the title as some kind of life membership.

Some conditionality of competence should be attached to use of the professional title.

NoQuarter

Have to say, I don't agree.

Journalists, Farmers and Presidents too?

Pro Hoc Vice

conorh91 wrote: »

Not necessarily. It would be a bit like CPD, where they'd have to be engaged in work that is directly relevant to the practice of law.

And the title wouldn't be "stripped"; it could be used if they returned to practice at the Bar or continued to engage in the practice of law.

I don't see what's difficult to understand.

If a Client or a Solciitor wishes to consult a register of practicing Barristers, he or she should be able to do so.

People who were called over in 1960 and are now in journalism or farming shouldn't be using the title as some kind of life membership.

Some conditionality of competence should be attached to use of the professional title.

If a person wishes they can search the law library databases online for any member of the law library. While I'm not a lover of the idea of someone who has never nor ever intends to practice using the title, never the less he has the right to use it I personally think its silly of a person who has never so much as stood in front of a judge (except the day of call) to call themselves barrister they never the less can. Also as except in limited circumstances a barrister is only engaged by a solicitor (they maintain a list of theses with practicing certs) I can see no issue for the general public.

I sometimes meet retired Judges and still address them as a Judge or Justice, and will only for a few small number call any judge retired or not by his or her first name.

Pro Hoc Vice

NoQuarter wrote: »

Have to say, I don't agree.

Journalists, Farmers and Presidents too?

And even Popes.