Contingency traffic plans for incidents on major arteries

MOH

A fatal collision overnight led to the Fairview junction at the bottom of the Malahide Road being closed for most of the morning.
The Malahide Rd was closed below the Griffith Ave junction, with traffic being diverted down Griffith Ave.
Buses were then being routed down Philipsburgh Ave, into the top of Ballybough, then back down Poplar Row onto Nth Strand.

The garda traffic management plan seemed to be to block off the Malahide Rd at Griffith Ave and stick up diversion signs.

There was no sign of any gardai further upstream, where traffic was getting fairly chaotic. I spent close to 20 minutes standing at a bus stop at Donnycarney Church, 15 of those looking at buses coming down the road sitting at the lights on the far side of the junction. Each time the lights changed, they were blocked from moving by cars westbound on Collins Ave turning left onto the Malahide Rd getting stuck crossing the bus lane trying to get into the main flow. Apart from the cars trying to cross it, the bus lane was empty the entire time.
The situation wasn’t helped by cars coming out of Donncarney Rd turning right onto Malahide road inbound forcing their way into every gap, which prevented the traffic moving and left the bus lane blocked.
I’m not blaming any of the drivers –the situation was chaotic. I’m honestly amazed there wasn’t another collision during the time I was standing there.

A single garda at that junction could have both kept the buses moving and made the whole situation a lot safer for all concerned.

The whole situation seemed really badly organised. I realise I was only looking at a very small part of the picture and maybe resources were deployed elsewhere, but it didn’t feel like there was a coherent plan.

(I’m not moaning about being delayed – someone lost their life. But there was serious potential for further knock-on incidents which seemed to be very badly handled).

coylemj

It amazes me when I hear of roads being closed 'for a forensic examination' after single vehicle accidents like a car going off the road and hitting a tree - what's the point? In many other cases the road can be measured and photos taken after the event like when the road is quiet, it's not like motorway medians are going to move or trees uprooted and shifted so why does this need to be done immediately after the event? Can't they just take a few photos of the vehicles, get them off the road, let the traffic flow and then come back later with the measuring tapes when the traffic has died down?

Worst case I saw was on a section of the M9 a few years ago, it was just a few days after it opened, there was a fatal accident involving one car which had already been taken away but they still closed a full section between two exits so that they could measure the road - couldn't they have asked the NRA for the dimensions?

Mikros

coylemj wrote: »

It amazes me when I hear of roads being closed 'for a forensic examination' after single vehicle accidents like a car going off the road and hitting a tree - what's the point? In many other cases the road can be measured and photos taken after the event like when the road is quiet, it's not like motorway medians are going to move or trees uprooted and shifted so why does this need to be done immediately after the event? Can't they just take a few photos of the vehicles, get them off the road, let the traffic flow and then come back later with the measuring tapes when the traffic has died down?

The point is that much of what they are measuring and photographing may not be there in a few days after the collisions - skid marks, debris from collision(s), impact points etc. The "forensic" part of the investigation is done to the same standard as a crime scene. The "why" is because someone has lost their life unnaturally and the State (through the Guards) has an obligation to fully investigate the circumstances of that death.

Your "what's the point" attitude to a collision where someone has died is pretty distasteful. A properly conducted investigation is the least the family of the deceased deserve.

A major traffic artery closing is always going to cause disruption - there is very little that be done to alleviate it across the entire system. Best hope is to notify motorists and ensure the investigation is done as quick as possible. Thankfully it is a pretty rare occurrence in Dublin when considering the volume of traffic on the roads.

coylemj

Mikros wrote: »

Your "what's the point" attitude to a collision where someone has died is pretty distasteful. A properly conducted investigation is the least the family of the deceased deserve.

That's called tokenism - doing something just for the sake of it. If a car runs off the road and hits a tree at 4 a.m. then you don't need road closures, measuring tapes and photographers to figure out the cause. There is nothing like the same level of investigation if someone falls off a ladder or a someone is killed in an accident on the farm, what's so special about motor accidents that leads to this type of shutdown and 'forensic' follow-up which I'm quite sure leads to no benefit for the living or the next-of-kin of the dead?

There was a Garda Assistant Commissioner in charge of traffic on the Pat Kenny radio show on RTE a few years ago, he was asked 'what's the point?' and his response was that while he recognised the disruption these investigations involved, the benefit was that they were going to build up a detailed knowledge of the causes of traffic accidents which would have major implications for road safety in the future.

I'm still waiting.

LXFlyer

Well tell that to the family of the deceased. Frankly I too find that sort of attitude distasteful.

Who are you or any of us to tell the Gardai how to do their job?

AlekSmart

coylemj wrote: »

That's called tokenism - doing something just for the sake of it. If a car runs off the road and hits a tree at 4 a.m. then you don't need road closures, measuring tapes and photographers to figure out the cause. There is nothing like the same level of investigation if someone falls off a ladder or a someone is killed in an accident on the farm, what's so special about motor accidents that leads to this type of shutdown and 'forensic' follow-up which I'm quite sure leads to no benefit for the living or the next-of-kin of the dead?

There was a Garda Assistant Commissioner in charge of traffic on the Pat Kenny radio show on RTE a few years ago, he was asked 'what's the point?' and his response was that while he recognised the disruption these investigations involved, the benefit was that they were going to build up a detailed knowledge of the causes of traffic accidents which would have major implications for road safety in the future.

I'm still waiting.

That's an interesting perception regarding the "Whats the Point" question.

My problem is not with the nature of any of these forensic investigations,but rather with what then becomes of the results.

Unlike the Aviation,Marine and Rail sectors which see their investigation reports published and debated,the Road Traffic sector never sees these results,or any recommendations consequent upon them,being placed in the public domain.

These investigations should form part of the greater learning process,whereby the fatal flaws,errors and whatever other contributory factors are all fully accounted for.

I am reminded of the data produced many years back to support the introduction of Compulsory Vehicle Testing (NCT)....the stuff all sounded great in soundbyte format,however when delved into the actual data showed Vehicle Condition being recorded as a contributory Factor in less than 1% of accidents,whilst Road Surface/Condition figured in over 17% of accident reports...guess which % merited the subsequent remedial action.???

The results of ALL such Garda RTI investigations should be made public,in the interests of developing a far greater sense of responsibility in relation to our driving habits.

However,for now,such data appears only available to the Insurance Industry

Mikros

coylemj wrote: »

That's called tokenism - doing something just for the sake of it. If a car runs off the road and hits a tree at 4 a.m. then you don't need road closures, measuring tapes and photographers to figure out the cause. There is nothing like the same level of investigation if someone falls off a ladder or a someone is killed in an accident on the farm, what's so special about motor accidents that leads to this type of shutdown and 'forensic' follow-up which I'm quite sure leads to no benefit for the living or the next-of-kin of the dead?

There was a Garda Assistant Commissioner in charge of traffic on the Pat Kenny radio show on RTE a few years ago, he was asked 'what's the point?' and his response was that while he recognised the disruption these investigations involved, the benefit was that they were going to build up a detailed knowledge of the causes of traffic accidents which would have major implications for road safety in the future.

I'm still waiting.

It's not just for the sake of it. It is to do a forensic investigation of the collision to discover what happened. Why is the person who crashed into a tree any less deserving of an investigation than a multi car pile up? The policy is every fatal collision gets the same standard of investigation which I think is a very reasonable position.

I'm glad you can figure out what happens based on just looking at a car in a ditch at 4am. There is higher standard of evidence required in the real world, and telling the family in the inquest that "shure they just crashed" doesn't really wash.

There are not 100's of people killed and seriously injured falling off ladders every year. Everybody uses the road everyday - either as a motorist, pedestrian or cyclist - that is what is special. We all have a vested interest in having the safest possible road network. Investigating when things go wrong and someone dies is part of that. And yes the information from investigations does influence policy.

donvito99

It's a fatality involving Gardaí and as such GSOC must investigate by law in addition to a necessarily thorough tech examination of the scene for the Coroner/vic's family/future investigations.

StreetLight

Although Gardaí are not infallible, there are procedures to be followed. It can sometimes cause inconvenience, but we just have to suck it up and work around it.

coylemj

AlekSmart wrote: »

I am reminded of the data produced many years back to support the introduction of Compulsory Vehicle Testing (NCT)....the stuff all sounded great in soundbyte format,however when delved into the actual data showed Vehicle Condition being recorded as a contributory Factor in less than 1% of accidents,whilst Road Surface/Condition figured in over 17% of accident reports...guess which % merited the subsequent remedial action.???

+1 I doubt the Irish motor trade highlighted that particular fact when they successfully lobbied the minister and/or the RSA to make the 'E' mark compulsory on tyres thereby ensuring that cars imported from Japan had to have perfectly good tyres removed and replaced with tyres supplied by - the Irish motor trade.

Your point highlights the fact that while lots of statistics are being gathered, you have to wonder what purpose is served when there is a much higher reliance placed on lobbying by the local motor trade than facts borne out by statistics.

thomasj

Just be glad you don't live in Dublin 15/Meath

An hour stuck on the navan road this evening while the packs were cleared out of the park from the bloom festival. An extra 30 minutes this morning as well.

Shows were at the mercy of the phoenix park. Every time it closes there's gridlock in the Dublin 15 area.

Oh and heart goes out to the family of the deceased . I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Godge

coylemj wrote: »

That's called tokenism - doing something just for the sake of it. If a car runs off the road and hits a tree at 4 a.m. then you don't need road closures, measuring tapes and photographers to figure out the cause. There is nothing like the same level of investigation if someone falls off a ladder or a someone is killed in an accident on the farm, what's so special about motor accidents that leads to this type of shutdown and 'forensic' follow-up which I'm quite sure leads to no benefit for the living or the next-of-kin of the dead?

There was a Garda Assistant Commissioner in charge of traffic on the Pat Kenny radio show on RTE a few years ago, he was asked 'what's the point?' and his response was that while he recognised the disruption these investigations involved, the benefit was that they were going to build up a detailed knowledge of the causes of traffic accidents which would have major implications for road safety in the future.

I'm still waiting.

99% of the time, someone crashing into a tree at 4 a.m. is due to fatigue and/or drunkenness. That other 1% may be due to foul play, a faulty vehicle etc. You don't know which of the 100% are the 1% until you investigate.

schemingbohemia

Looks like the Garda don't know their own rules and should have referred the case to GSOC immediately before attempting any forensic examinations!

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/gsoc-at-odds-with-garda-over-handling-of-fatal-crash-scene-1.1814311

coylemj

Godge wrote: »

99% of the time, someone crashing into a tree at 4 a.m. is due to fatigue and/or drunkenness. That other 1% may be due to foul play, a faulty vehicle etc. You don't know which of the 100% are the 1% until you investigate.

If it's a faulty vehicle, that can be determined by putting the vehicle on the back of a recovery truck and examining it at the local Garda station. If the driver was drunk, that fact can be determined as part of the post-mortem. Neither investigation requires that the road be closed for hours to measure it and take photographs which by your own admission achieves precisely nothing in 99% of accidents.

And if you read the article linked to in the post above,the Fairview incident yesterday involving closing the road TWICE because it was investigated by AGS in the early hours, they reopened the road and then they were told to close the stretch of road AGAIN because GSOC wanted to do their own investigation.

Going Forward

coylemj wrote: »

If it's a faulty vehicle, that can be determined by putting the vehicle on the back of a recovery truck and examining it at the local Garda station. If the driver was drunk, that fact can be determined as part of the post-mortem. Neither investigation requires that the road be closed for hours to measure it and take photographs which by your own admission achieves precisely nothing in 99% of accidents.

+1, but you must use the word "collision" now.;)

Going Forward

AlekSmart wrote: »

That's an interesting perception regarding the "Whats the Point" question.

My problem is not with the nature of any of these forensic investigations,but rather with what then becomes of the results.

Unlike the Aviation,Marine and Rail sectors which see their investigation reports published and debated,the Road Traffic sector never sees these results,or any recommendations consequent upon them,being placed in the public domain.

These investigations should form part of the greater learning process,whereby the fatal flaws,errors and whatever other contributory factors are all fully accounted for.

I am reminded of the data produced many years back to support the introduction of Compulsory Vehicle Testing (NCT)....the stuff all sounded great in soundbyte format,however when delved into the actual data showed Vehicle Condition being recorded as a contributory Factor in less than 1% of accidents,whilst Road Surface/Condition figured in over 17% of accident reports...guess which % merited the subsequent remedial action.???

The results of ALL such Garda RTI investigations should be made public,in the interests of developing a far greater sense of responsibility in relation to our driving habits.

However,for now,such data appears only available to the Insurance Industry

The disclosure of brand and model test results from NCT and DOE/CVT would seem a no brainer in the public interest, particularly as we don't have any functioning vehicle recall system, but I dont think it's done in the UK either for example.

It would also assist those involved in vehicle operation and maintenance etc.

Perhaps there's some fear of being sued by Ford/Toyota on reliability grounds and for actually publishing the fact that the continually failing points are not being adequately addressed by the manufacturers, eg, known corrosion points, suspension weaknesses etc.

Or perhaps the test results are so haphazard that they demonstrate no uniformity........which would'nt be hugely surprising.

ProudDUB

lxflyer wrote: »

Well tell that to the family of the deceased. Frankly I too find that sort of attitude distasteful.

Who are you or any of us to tell the Gardai how to do their job?

The OP makes a perfectly valid point about the lack of Gardai manpower in the situation, even though their choice of language could be better. I am very familiar with the junction that the OP is talking about. It is a very busy one. Collins Ave is one of the main east/west roads, that feeds into one of the busiest main roads that head into the city centre.

Parnell Park (the Dublin Co Ground) is just behind the church that the OP was standing at. When GAA matches are on there, the Guards are always there directing traffic. The junction is a nightmare to get through if they don't. If they were closing off large parts of the Malahide Road, it should have occurred to someone somewhere, that traffic at that junction would need to be managed & they would need man power to do so, just as they do for GAA games.

If the accident happened overnight, surely they would have had plenty of time to get someone there in time for the early morning commuter rush? It's just common sense. It is possible to question that imo, without disrespecting the dead.

monument

coylemj wrote: »

And if you read the article linked to in the post above,the Fairview incident yesterday involving closing the road TWICE because it was investigated by AGS in the early hours, they reopened the road and then they were told to close the stretch of road AGAIN because GSOC wanted to do their own investigation.

No, the road was reclosed because:

-- The Gardai did not follow procedure

-- GSOC were not contacted as the Irish Times reports "until 7.30am yesterday, some 5½ hours after it happened in Fairview"

-- the Gardai interfered with the collision site when they are supposed to only seal it off, including moving the car

And sorry, you're wrong, on-site investigation is highly important in confirming the facts of any collision.