George and Dragon up for sale

qweerty

"Four of the best known pubs in Dublin have been put up for sale. The Capital Bars portfolio, which comprises the popular nightspots Cafe en Seine, Howl at the Moon, The George and The Dragon, is expected fetch about €13.5m when it is offered by private treaty." - Irish Independent


The George, "the specialist licensed premises geared towards the LGBT market, occupies a top trading position at the Dame Street end of South Great George’s Street. The area is one of the liveliest nightspots in the city. It is held on a part-freehold/part-leasehold basis and extends to over 640sq m (6,889sq ft). The agent is quoting in excess of €3.5 million for the property, which is rumoured to have a net turnover of about €3.5 million.

Nearby The Dragon is on the market with vacant possession. It extends to 743sq m (8,000sq ft), has extensive ground- and first-floor bar areas and offers "considerable scope to develop a high-volume, high-margin business", according to Ryan. The property is held freehold and offers in excess of €3.5 million are being sought." - Irish Times


*I can't link, for some reason


What will be the consequences, if any, of the sale? Of particular note is that the Dragon isn't referred to as a gay club/bar in either article, with reference instead being made to its potential for development. Is the fact that it is "held freehold" of significance?

Ten of Swords

qweerty wrote: »

*I can't link, for some reason

You have less than 50 posts. Here are the links,

Irish Independent

Irish Times

Leasehold means you own the building(s) but not the land it/they are on. You must pay ground rent to the land owner (usually the city council). Your ownership is also fixed for a number of years.

Freehold means you own the building(s) and the land it/they are on. There is no ground rent and there is no time limit on ownership.

qweerty

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Leasehold means you own the building(s) but not the land it/they are on. You must pay ground rent to the land owner (usually the city council). Your ownership is also fixed for a number of years.

Freehold means you own the building(s) and the land it/they are on. There is no ground rent and there is no time limit on ownership.

Thank you for your reply. My reading is that the operations of The George, given that it is under leasehold, will continue after the sale unchanged, but that The Dragon could be evicted if the new owners chose to. Am I right?

Ten of Swords

Not necessarily, as Capital Bars are now in receivership, as per the articles, the buyers can do what they like with all 4 premesis. They may choose to continue operations under a new trading entity (and may or may not change the premises name) if they feel it is profitable to do so, or they may put the premesis to an entirely different use. Freehold/Leasehold won't make much difference here as far as I can see (open to correction). The buyers are also under no obligation to take on the staff currently working there. Hopefully people won't be made unemployed if it can be avoided.

Daith

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Not necessarily, as Capital Bars are now in receivership, as per the articles, the buyers can do what they like with all 4 premesis. They may choose to continue operations under a new trading entity (and may or may not change the premises name) if they feel it is profitable to do so, or they may put the premesis to an entirely different use. Freehold/Leasehold won't make much difference here as far as I can see (open to correction). The buyers are also under no obligation to take on the staff currently working there. Hopefully people won't be made unemployed if it can be avoided.

True though I think they'd be crazy to change The George from a gay club. The Dragon though....

baby and crumble

I dunno, I haven't been in the George much recently (only the odd time) and the place is DEAD during the week. I can understand it losing money tbh. But at the same time, I can't see the benefit of changing such a landmark bar.

I haven't been into Dragon in YEARS. It seems like it's very young... and yes, that means I am old. C'est la vie.

Daith

baby and crumble wrote: »

I dunno, I haven't been in the George much recently (only the odd time) and the place is DEAD during the week. I can understand it losing money tbh. But at the same time, I can't see the benefit of changing such a landmark bar.

Is it losing money? I know the former owners went into receivership but they owned alot of clubs.

baby and crumble

Daith wrote: »

Is it losing money? I know the former owners went into receivership but they owned alot of clubs.

I'd imagine it is. But then I know nothing about it.

L1011

The Dragon being offered with vacant possession is interesting; as it suggests its very possible that The Dragon entity could cease to exist at least during the sales procedure - its basically being sold as a building, not a bar/club company.

I presume The George's mixed freehold/leasehold is related to the fact that is clearly two units combined at the first floor; one of them (likely the Bridies/Jurassic side) is probably freehold with the other leased.

Aard

If it is changed at all, I can't see the Dragon being changed into anything but another club. What else would you do with a 750sqm building on George's Street that already has permission to be used as a club. It's a very desirable location -- Market Bar recently wanted to extend, but were refused on the grounds that George's Street already had too much of that land-use.

Ten of Swords

I hope Dragon doesn't end up as a Wetherspoons or something like that The article suggests that UK pub chains will try to snap these lots up.

I have very fond memories of the George, even though I haven't been there in quite a while, but honestly I've had more craic in gay venues outside of Dublin. There's a hotel in Limerick on Glentworth street that used to have a gay night on Saturdays which was a great laugh.

My favourite by a long shot though is the Kremlin

It's for sale too :eek:

floggg

Ten of Swords wrote: »

You have less than 50 posts. Here are the links,

Irish Independent

Irish Times

Leasehold means you own the building(s) but not the land it/they are on. You must pay ground rent to the land owner (usually the city council). Your ownership is also fixed for a number of years.

Freehold means you own the building(s) and the land it/they are on. There is no ground rent and there is no time limit on ownership.

It looks like you got that from the citizens information website, but the above description of lease hold is wrong.

Or at least applies only to a small number of long term leases created in the old landlord days accompanied by a licence to build a premises. Most of Dublin was built out of lands held by landlords who allowed it be developed by way of leases of up to 999 tests to developers who then built the properties and "sold" or assigned the leasehold interest. Originally the rent was a form of pension for them.

Those leases are so long that they are treated for all intents and purposes like ownership. The rent payable has been reduced so much in value by inflation that it's no longer worth collecting.

But generally speaking leasehold just means rented. A one year residential lease on a house is still a leasehold interest.

And in most cases you won't own the underlying building. The ultimate owner of the freehold will, especially with newer buildings.

I would imagine that the relevant part of the George is under a medium term commercial lease. I'm sure the lease doesn't have much impact on it's use (other than perhaps to stipulate use as a bar/club in accordance with the planning permission, but that could be straight or gay).

I would say the distinction is perhaps that the George is being sold as a going concern - the well sell their interest in the property but also likely the name, goodwill, brand etc. the George is an institution so there is probably a lot of added value in the goodwill.

The Dragon had less goodwill, and so it's probably easier to just sell the property interest and licence, but without necessarily the Dragon brand and goodwill. There are likely to be more buyers for a club space in the city centre than for the second biggest gay club in a two gay club town.

baby and crumble

floggg wrote: »

The Dragon had less goodwill, and so it's probably easier to just sell the property interest and licence, but without necessarily the Dragon brand and goodwill. There are likely to be more buyers for a club space in the city centre than for the second biggest gay club in a two gay club town.

In terms of size it's 2nd biggest, I'd say Panti edges them in turnover though. I'd say Panti might even come close to the George.

Aard

I think what's holding Dublin back in terms of absolute number of gay bars/pubs/clubs is that there are the two superbars that suck up all the trade, so to speak. If all the bars were Panti-sized, there'd be room for a lot more, and a lot more diversity. If the Dragon is sold and becomes a straight bar or Wetherspoons, there'll be a gap in the market immediately. Chances are that a few small places would open up, with the possibility that all might survive. People appear to be bored of the secretive dark superpub, one of the reasons Panti has done so well.

baby and crumble

Aard wrote: »

I think what's holding Dublin back in terms of absolute number of gay bars/pubs/clubs is that there are the two superbars that suck up all the trade, so to speak. If all the bars were Panti-sized, there'd be room for a lot more, and a lot more diversity. If the Dragon is sold and becomes a straight bar or Wetherspoons, there'll be a gap in the market immediately. Chances are that a few small places would open up, with the possibility that all might survive. People appear to be bored of the secretive dark superpub, one of the reasons Panti has done so well.

I think too that Panti caters for a different demographic, I find it much more comfortable there as a 30-something lesbian than anywhere else in Dublin. Nobody gives a **** who you are. It's nice. Plus the quality of the shows are top notch. I've brought friends there who live and work in San Francisco and they were blown away at the quality of Panti and Bunny and the rest.

qweerty

Aard wrote: »

I think what's holding Dublin back in terms of absolute number of gay bars/pubs/clubs is that there are the two superbars that suck up all the trade, so to speak. If all the bars were Panti-sized, there'd be room for a lot more, and a lot more diversity. If the Dragon is sold and becomes a straight bar or Wetherspoons, there'll be a gap in the market immediately. Chances are that a few small places would open up, with the possibility that all might survive. People appear to be bored of the secretive dark superpub, one of the reasons Panti has done so well.

I plucked up the courage to go to The George (alone) on Tuesday thinking I would be inconspicuous in the dark and among a crowd of drunken revellers. The place was far from full and the the lighting was way too bright. I pretended to be looking for someone in the smoking area, and then bailed! Given that I'd had to semi-plead with the bouncer to let me in ("Been here before?", "How long ago was that?", "What day was it?"), t'was a tad embarrassing walking past him less than ninety seconds later.

L1011

Don't think anywhere's been busy on a Tuesday since the days of Glitz. Door staff do over-interrogate people both there and the Dragon as to their intentions I find.

qweerty

MYOB wrote: »

Don't think anywhere's been busy on a Tuesday since the days of Glitz. Door staff do over-interrogate people both there and the Dragon as to their intentions I find.

Glitz was in Dandelion, right? When did it close? Is C.U.N.T not busy? I like the idea of protective bouncers who are looking out for vulnerable clubbers, but wish they could be a little more compassionate or understanding. I'm quite shy, so it would have been apparent quite quickly that my intentions weren't to queer-bash. Being alone, he could have taken me slightly inside the door and quizzed me there. Instead, he did it on George's Street, with people stepping around me, etc.

baby and crumble

qweerty wrote: »

Glitz was in Dandelion, right? When did it close? Is C.U.N.T not busy? I like the idea of protective bouncers who are looking out for vulnerable clubbers, but wish they could be a little more compassionate or understanding. I'm quite shy, so it would have been apparent quite quickly that my intentions weren't to queer-bash. Being alone, he could have taken me slightly inside the door and quizzed me there. Instead, he did it on George's Street, with people stepping around me, etc.

Oh God, I'm so old I remember Glitz being on in Break for the Border. :eek::eek::eek:

I know what you mean about door staff. They are trying to make sure nobody gets in who's going to cause trouble, but it means they have to use stereotypes to figure out who to try and weed out. I NEVER get stopped- I look SUPER gay- but if my GF tries to go in, she gets stopped a fair bit, unless I'm with her. It really peeves her off tbh.

qweerty

baby and crumble wrote: »

Oh God, I'm so old I remember Glitz being on in Break for the Border. :eek::eek::eek:

I know what you mean about door staff. They are trying to make sure nobody gets in who's going to cause trouble, but it means they have to use stereotypes to figure out who to try and weed out. I NEVER get stopped- I look SUPER gay- but if my GF tries to go in, she gets stopped a fair bit, unless I'm with her. It really peeves her off tbh.

I'm still at the early stage of "acceptance", but at least I've got beyond the point of being proud whenever someone said I was "straight-acting". My previous self would have semi-relished being refused admission to a gay club!

Aard

baby and crumble wrote: »

Oh God, I'm so old I remember Glitz being on in Break for the Border. :eek::eek::eek:

Wait. Glitz is no longer on in Break for the Border? Tell me Break for the Border still exists?!

Sesudra

Ah Glitz, memories! I saw Linda Martin getting a drink thrown over her on stage by a disgruntled "You're a Star" reject one night

BethG

Aard wrote: »

Wait. Glitz is no longer on in Break for the Border? Tell me Break for the Border still exists?!

Just about; it was another super pub in the Capital Bar network.

Hard to think that a few years ago, the G was stuffed 7 nights a week, the Dragon was heaving because it was easier to get into and less cliquy and intimidating, Glitz took in a good crowd mid week and Capital Bars were seriously thinking of relaunching Bad Bobs as a gay venue.

I agree with you, more small bars gives better options and more choice.

qweerty

BethG wrote: »

Hard to think that a few years ago, the G was stuffed 7 nights a week, the Dragon was heaving because it was easier to get into and less cliquy and intimidating, Glitz took in a good crowd mid week and Capital Bars were seriously thinking of relaunching Bad Bobs as a gay venue.

I find that vaguely depressing. What do you think is the cause? The aforementioned emigration of 20-30 y/o's?

Daith

qweerty wrote: »

I find that vaguely depressing. What do you think is the cause? The aforementioned emigration of 20-30 y/o's?

The less need for dedicated gay clubs in Dublin. It may even be a good thing....

Also easier to meet gay people online

qweerty

British pub chain Wetherspoons looking at four popular city bars | Irish Independent

Aard

So if Wetherspoons buys the George and Dragon, that's like saying goodbye to what at least 75% of gaybar square footage in the city? Panti and Front Lounge will rake it in for a while, but sooner or later more pint-sized bars should start opening. We may even see the emergence of a street full of bars -- Capel Street being the obvious frontrunner. As was said either upthread or in another thread, kind of like what's happened naturally in other European cities. Too pie in the sky?

qweerty

Aard wrote: »

So if Wetherspoons buys the George and Dragon, that's like saying goodbye to what at least 75% of gaybar square footage in the city? Panti and Front Lounge will rake it in for a while, but sooner or later more pint-sized bars should start opening. We may even see the emergence of a street full of bars -- Capel Street being the obvious frontrunner. As was said either upthread or in another thread, kind of like what's happened naturally in other European cities. Too pie in the sky?

I'd be surprised if they converted both George's Street pubs. Given The George's history, the obvious one to convert (if one is to be) would be The Dragon, but, by my reckoning, that's the less appealing of the two to convert - farther up the street, layout is less bar-like, etc.

I dunno if I like the thought of a street of "pint-sized bars". I quite like being able to stroll up and down one side of George's Street - hood up - before darting across the road when a gap in the traffic allows and entering a dark and anonymous pleasure house. I suppose the likes of WAR, C.U.N.T, Mother, etc, would continue to provide the club experience, with the George/Dragon concept of the bar/club being done away with.

Aard

qweerty wrote: »

I'd be surprised if they converted both George's Street pubs. Given The George's history, the obvious one to convert (if one is to be) would be The Dragon, but, by my reckoning, that's the less appealing of the two to convert - farther up the street, layout is less bar-like, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they converted both pubs. Firstly, George's Street is immensely desirable to have a pub on, as evidenced by Market Bar's recent expansion attempt. Secondly, it is difficult to get a change of use from non-pub to pub on this street, again evidenced by Market Bar's attempt. Thirdly, now that you have both the right street and the right land-use, the two properties in question are quite large.

As we have seen, there's been a significant decline in demand for the George and Dragon. On the other hand, the craft pub market is ever-expanding. Wetherspoons will have made gutting and renovation into a fine art over their years, so it would make sense for them to completely renovate both bars at the same time to make economies of scale.

Butterface

There's not much difference between the 5 or so Wetherspoons near where I am in the UK. The same menu in each bar, same drinks on tap, same prices, same lack of atmosphere. It's a chain, so it acquires a bar and changes it into a Wetherspoons. Unless they are going to change their business model for Ireland, then we can expect more of the same unfortunately.

Bah!

qweerty

Aard wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they converted both pubs. Firstly, George's Street is immensely desirable to have a pub on, as evidenced by Market Bar's recent expansion attempt. Secondly, it is difficult to get a change of use from non-pub to pub on this street, again evidenced by Market Bar's attempt. Thirdly, now that you have both the right street and the right land-use, the two properties in question are quite large.

As we have seen, there's been a significant decline in demand for the George and Dragon. On the other hand, the craft pub market is ever-expanding. Wetherspoons will have made gutting and renovation into a fine art over their years, so it would make sense for them to completely renovate both bars at the same time to make economies of scale.

Could they sustain two Wetherspoons on the same street? Would they permitted to have two? I imagine they'd like to have one in Temple Bar and near O'Connell Street, as well.

The problem with regard to the Dragon is how much of upstairs is basically a viewing balcony. But, you're right that they're probs pretty proficient at conversions!

Annasopra

qweerty wrote: »

I find that vaguely depressing. What do you think is the cause? The aforementioned emigration of 20-30 y/o's?

Recession
Emigration

L1011

qweerty wrote: »

Could they sustain two Wetherspoons on the same street? Would they permitted to have two?

What agency or body controls what brands people use on their pubs now?

Wetherspoons have two brands anyway, Wetherspoons and Lloyds.

BethG

qweerty wrote: »

I find that vaguely depressing. What do you think is the cause? The aforementioned emigration of 20-30 y/o's?

Lots of things. Less money and emigration defo hasn't helped and that's the experience for all trades but as well I noticed that many of those on the scene were economic migrants who came here to work, especially east europeans, Aussies and white collar types and I reckon a lot of them have moved on. I think some of it is down to that our drinking and social habits have changed in Dublin, we do drink good bit less than we used to and in different ways or even not at all.

Also smaller more unique bars in the city which do something different seem to be doing better than big mega sized bars, the success of Panti Bar has taken a crowd out of the G. It's okay to be gay so there is less pressure to sneak be on the scene to look for love/sex plus we have internet socialising and dating so there is less need for meat market clubs, straight and gay. Then again, many of those who were on the scene 10 years ago have grown up and gotten mortgages, families, businesses and generally grown up

J_E

Mr.S wrote: »

Thats the appeal of Wetherpoons though. Cheap and the same across the board, no matter which you walk into.

Atmosphere can be a bit bleak at times in them, but if your with friends its fine.

They are literally a cheap watering hole, will be good to see them in the city!

I disagree. The city doesn't need more chains like that, bad enough with Starbucks et al. It's been doing really well with a lot of original and creative joints. Go to London and you'll realise how bad it can be to have streets full of the same places. Dublin can do better than a Wetherspoons.

L1011

Cydoniac wrote: »

I disagree. The city doesn't need more chains like that, bad enough with Starbucks et al. It's been doing really well with a lot of original and creative joints. Go to London and you'll realise how bad it can be to have streets full of the same places. Dublin can do better than a Wetherspoons.

We don't have any chains like Wetherspoons at all, though.

J_E

MYOB wrote: »

We don't have any chains like Wetherspoons at all, though.

Porterhouse!

Aard

Is anyone actually saying that the Porterhouse chain is bad for the city? People need to loosen up and get over the chicken licken mentality.

Annasopra

Cydoniac wrote: »

Porterhouse!

Porterhouse and Wethersponns are not really comparable!

L1011

Cydoniac wrote: »

Porterhouse!

The Porterhouse are low cost and have no music and muted TVs? The >5.00 pint and the relatively loud trad playing with not a TV in sight in Central on Friday must have been my imagination then...

J_E

Aard wrote: »

Is anyone actually saying that the Porterhouse chain is bad for the city? People need to loosen up and get over the chicken licken mentality.

I was only stating there were chains, never said Porterhouse was in any way on the same level as Wetherspoons! This tends to be a very sensitive topic for some users.

hotmail.com

Cydoniac wrote: »

I was only stating there were chains, never said Porterhouse was in any way on the same level as Wetherspoons! This tends to be a very sensitive topic for some users.

Aren't a lot of the bars/pubs owned by the same person/people? They are a form of chain.

I heard that the George must stay as a gay bar if it changes owners. I have no idea how that is legal or not, but that's what a staff member told me.

Daith

hotmail.com wrote: »

I heard that the George must stay as a gay bar if it changes owners. I have no idea how that is legal or not, but that's what a staff member told me.

I don't see how that's possible. The people who buy it can do anything.

azezil

I preferred the bar that was there before Dragon, very laid back casual atmosphere, nice and bright. Wouldn't bother me if it went back to that.

hotmail.com

Daith wrote: »

I don't see how that's possible. The people who buy it can do anything.

I had a feeling it didn't add up.

qweerty

Daith wrote: »

I don't see how that's possible. The people who buy it can do anything.

I have little knowledge of property law, but I can conceive of a situation where the management of The George would have entered into a lease agreement which gave them effective ownership of the property for a period of time, and that that agreement would not be effected were the property to be sold.

Daith

qweerty wrote: »

I have little knowledge of property law, but I can conceive of a situation where the management of The George would have entered into a lease agreement which gave them effective ownership of the property for a period of time, and that that agreement would not be effected were the property to be sold.

Don't see how that's possible either. There's no requirement for it to remain a gay bar. I mean does "gay bar" even mean anything really? They're required to let gay people drink in the pub?

qweerty

Daith wrote: »

Don't see how that's possible either. There's no requirement for it to remain a gay bar. I mean does "gay bar" even mean anything really? They're required to let gay people drink in the pub?

I wonder do you misunderstand me. I think the management of The George has entered into a leasehold agreement with the owners of the premises which entitles them to use the property as they want. If the owners decide to sell, I think that the leasehold is unaffected.

L1011

qweerty wrote: »

I wonder do you misunderstand me. I think the management of The George has entered into a leasehold agreement with the owners of the premises which entitles them to use the property as they want. If the owners decide to sell, I think that the leasehold is unaffected.

Considering its being sold as a business (with partial freehold), not as a freehold property with a business in situ, that is clearly not the case.

The Dragon is even being sold as premises, not a business, if you read the ad.

Abertlocan

I hope the new owners of the George change the CD in the Jurassic bar jute box...

suicide_circus

that place behind front lounge (mother?) has people spilling out all over the street any time i pass it