Accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as savior

Pat Custard

In Christianity, we are taught to accept that the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins and all of mankind is saved is he believes in the Lord Jesus Christ and the He rose again to give us eternal life.

Some hardcore Christians believe that we will face eternal damnation if we reject the Gospel.

What if you genuinely want to believe, but your own intuition won't allow you to believe?

Surely you cannot be punished for something which is pre-programmed into your brain?

Would salvation be achieved if you accept (but struggle to believe) ?

J C

Pat Custard wrote: »

In Christianity, we are taught to accept that the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins and all of mankind is saved is he believes in the Lord Jesus Christ and the He rose again to give us eternal life.

Some hardcore Christians believe that we will face eternal damnation if we reject the Gospel.

What if you genuinely want to believe, but your own intuition won't allow you to believe?

Surely you cannot be punished for something which is pre-programmed into your brain?

Would salvation be achieved if you accept (but struggle to believe) ?

In a word, yes.

God has given us free will ... and He will not force Salvation on those who reject Him and it.

... and He will equally Save all who repent and ask for it ... even when they struggle to believe in it. It's where their heart is that will count.

Technically speaking, if we reject God and His Gospel (or good news of salvation) we will be not be Saved ... but only because we have freely chosen not to be Saved.
If somebody doesn't have the capacity to make this choice in this life, I believe that, in justice, God will give them the chance to do so in the next life.

homer911

Acceptance can often be a stepping stone on the road to belief, provided you take that walk and don't just stop at acceptance.

I would caution that acceptance can be taken as sitting on the fence, and sitting on the fence is not the same as being in the kingdom.

I would struggle with the idea of accepting but now believing

Take a look at Matthew 7:23 and Matthew Henry's commentary
http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-23.htm

J C

homer911 wrote: »

Acceptance can often be a stepping stone on the road to belief, provided you take that walk and don't just stop at acceptance.

I would caution that acceptance can be taken as sitting on the fence, and sitting on the fence is not the same as being in the kingdom.

I would struggle with the idea of accepting but now believing

Take a look at Matthew 7:23 and Matthew Henry's commentary
http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-23.htm

It's where people's hearts are that counts ... and only Jesus Christ and themselves can really know if they really want to be Saved and believe on Jesus Christ.

I would struggle to imagine any situation where somebody accepts Jesus Christ as his/her Lord and Saviour and doesn't believe on Him as well.

lazybones32

Pat Custard wrote: »

In Christianity, we are taught to accept that the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins and all of mankind is saved is he believes in the Lord Jesus Christ and the He rose again to give us eternal life.

Some hardcore Christians believe that we will face eternal damnation if we reject the Gospel.

What if you genuinely want to believe, but your own intuition won't allow you to believe?

Surely you cannot be punished for something which is pre-programmed into your brain?

Would salvation be achieved if you accept (but struggle to believe) ?

You don't have to understand everything or believe everything that is written in the Bible to receive the gift of grace.
Faith truly is a seed and will grow with just a little input from you. Doubts are common (even necessary) and can lead to stronger faith.

Christ didn't come to condemn, so you've got it backwards with regards "punishment"; that isn't his criteria. He came, so that we may have life and have it in fullness. He'll never speak to you about punishing you

martinedwards

You wouldn't be the first!

Mark 9:24

Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”

antiskeptic

Pat Custard wrote: »

In Christianity, we are taught to accept that the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins and all of mankind is saved is he believes in the Lord Jesus Christ and the He rose again to give us eternal life.

Some hardcore Christians believe that we will face eternal damnation if we reject the Gospel.

What if you genuinely want to believe, but your own intuition won't allow you to believe?

Surely you cannot be punished for something which is pre-programmed into your brain?

Would salvation be achieved if you accept (but struggle to believe) ?

Abraham didn't believe that Jesus died for his sins or that he rose from the dead for us. He couldn't have heard the gospel.

Yet he was saved.

It strikes me that you don't have to worry about the problems with this method of salvation since it doesn't appear to be the method used by God.

Gnostic Christian Bishop

How will you get yourself into heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?

Revisit substitutionary atonement or vicarious redemption and scapegoating with me just to refresh your memory. It is the intentional punishing of the innocent instead of the guilty and if you ever showed your children what is involved, they would know how immoral it is.


I am not an atheist but Satan and Christians want atheists to embrace barbaric human sacrifice and the notion that we should profit from punishing the innocent instead of the guilty. Scapegoating IOW.

In reality, if God did demand such a barbaric sacrifice, he would be sinning as we all know that it is immoral to kill the innocent. God knows this yet Christians do not seem to. You do. Right?

Those with good morals will know that no noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a son just to prove it's benevolence. When you die, Satan will ask you; how was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood?

If and when you say yes, you become his.

---

The other option in scriptures, a moral one, is shown here. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Scriptures indicate that God prefers repentance to sacrifice and as God’s will is supreme and cannot be thwarted, this will come to pass.

---

It is a special distorted Christian view of love that sees, --- as the greatest act of love possible, --- their God condemning them, and then turning and demanding his son’s deaths and thus corrupting God's perfect justice. A bribe set by God as judge himself for himself. This is of course ridiculous.

Christians have an insane view of love, IMO.

Would you express your love for humanity or those you love by having your own child needlessly murdered?

Or if convinced that a sacrifice was somehow good, would you have the moral fortitude to step up yourself to that cross instead of sending your child?

Your cowardly God did not.

Regards
DL

newmug

Pat Custard wrote: »

In Christianity, we are taught to accept that the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins and all of mankind is saved is he believes in the Lord Jesus Christ and the He rose again to give us eternal life.

Some hardcore Christians believe that we will face eternal damnation if we reject the Gospel.

What if you genuinely want to believe, but your own intuition won't allow you to believe?

Surely you cannot be punished for something which is pre-programmed into your brain?

Would salvation be achieved if you accept (but struggle to believe) ?

But sure we all struggle to believe sometimes. It's NOT easy to believe something that sounds impossible, ie rising from the dead etc. But take encouragement in the fact that the first ever non-believer was one of the apostles, and is now a saint, St. Thomas the apostle!

Gnostic Christian Bishop wrote: »

How will you get yourself into heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?..................

Christians have an insane view of love, IMO.

Would you express your love for humanity or those you love by having your own child needlessly murdered?

Or if convinced that a sacrifice was somehow good, would you have the moral fortitude to step up yourself to that cross instead of sending your child?

Your cowardly God did not.

Regards
DL

I think YOU have an insane view of Christianity! God didn't send a "child", he came himself in human form, as Jesus, and METAPHORICALLY referred to the relationship between all humans and god as a father / son-daughter relationship, and between each other as brothers-sisters. You are my brother in Christ, even though we are not related.

And coming to earth himself, and sacrificing his mortal life for us, is the BIGGEST love act one can perform! That's the actual oxford dictionary definition of love, to sacrifice your own life for another! Don't you love your wife? If a terrorist had a gun to her head, would you not tell him to let her go and take you instead?

I'm shocked GCB! This is foundation Christian stuff, page 1 of "How to be a Christian"!

Gnostic Christian Bishop

newmug wrote: »

But sure we all struggle to believe sometimes. It's NOT easy to believe something that sounds impossible, ie rising from the dead etc. But take encouragement in the fact that the first ever non-believer was one of the apostles, and is now a saint, St. Thomas the apostle!






I think YOU have an insane view of Christianity! God didn't send a "child", he came himself in human form, as Jesus, and METAPHORICALLY referred to the relationship between all humans and god as a father / son-daughter relationship, and between each other as brothers-sisters. You are my brother in Christ, even though we are not related.

And coming to earth himself, and sacrificing his mortal life for us, is the BIGGEST love act one can perform! That's the actual oxford dictionary definition of love, to sacrifice your own life for another! Don't you love your wife? If a terrorist had a gun to her head, would you not tell him to let her go and take you instead?

I'm shocked GCB! This is foundation Christian stuff, page 1 of "How to be a Christian"!

Literalist. Not the brightest bulbs.

I am not surprised that you think being condemned by God and then him turning about and sacrificing himself to annul his own judgement which has been corrupted by the bribe or sacrifice he demanded.

Only literalist fool will accept a judge who sets and accepts bribes, ransoms and sacrifices.

Funny how you reject the son's sacrifice and have God sacrificing himself to himself and even without a loss, foolish Christians still call that idiocy a sacrifice.

God cannot die. is the bottom line that you ignore because of fear of the hell you God has planed for most of us.

You also forget what the bible says is justice.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Regards
DL

J C

Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop wrote:

How will you get yourself into heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?..................

Christians have an insane view of love, IMO.

Would you express your love for humanity or those you love by having your own child needlessly murdered?

Or if convinced that a sacrifice was somehow good, would you have the moral fortitude to step up yourself to that cross instead of sending your child?

Your cowardly God did not.

Jesus Christ is true God and true Man.
He summarises His atonement for sin as follows:-
Jn 3:13-17
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

J C

Gnostic Christian Bishop wrote: »

Literalist. Not the brightest bulbs.

I am not surprised that you think being condemned by God and then him turning about and sacrificing himself to annul his own judgement which has been corrupted by the bribe or sacrifice he demanded.

Only literalist fool will accept a judge who sets and accepts bribes, ransoms and sacrifices.

God is perfectly just and perfectly merciful.
In order to be perfectly merciful, He must show mercy to all who ask for it.
However, in order to be perfctly just, He must atone for the sins of those to whom He shows perfect mercy.
He did this in one perfect atonement with His death on a cross.

Gnostic Christian Bishop wrote: »

Funny how you reject the son's sacrifice and have God sacrificing himself to himself and even without a loss, foolish Christians still call that idiocy a sacrifice.

God cannot die. is the bottom line that you ignore because of fear of the hell you God has planed for most of us.

God cannot die ... but God made Man, in Jesus Christ can ... and did die.
... and the spirtual and physical pain that He suffered was infinite, as He is an infinitely holy and perfect person.

Gnostic Christian Bishop wrote: »

You also forget what the bible says is justice.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Regards
DL

There are two separate aspects of justice in the above scriptures. The first aspect is that each one is accountable for themselves to God and Man.
The second aspect is that people can cause adverse consequences for other people through their actions ... and in particular, parents can create long reaching consequences for their children and lineal descendents, with how they conduct themselves in this life.

The first principle is absolute and the second one is conditional on the first.

J C

Gnostic Christian Bishop wrote: »

How will you get yourself into heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?

My answer is that I have no merit opposite an infinitely holy God ... so I'm relying on somebody else to pay for my sins ... and that somebody is Jesus Christ.

What is your answer to your question?

J C

antiskeptic wrote: »

Abraham didn't believe that Jesus died for his sins or that he rose from the dead for us. He couldn't have heard the gospel.

Yet he was saved.

It strikes me that you don't have to worry about the problems with this method of salvation since it doesn't appear to be the method used by God.

Abraham believed that the Messiah would come to save him ... indeed, he was promised that the Saviour would be a lineal descendent of his and all Humanity would be blessed through him, as a result.

Benny_Cake

Gnostic Christian Bishop wrote: »

Literalist. Not the brightest bulbs.

I am not surprised that you think being condemned by God and then him turning about and sacrificing himself to annul his own judgement which has been corrupted by the bribe or sacrifice he demanded.

Only literalist fool will accept a judge who sets and accepts bribes, ransoms and sacrifices.

Funny how you reject the son's sacrifice and have God sacrificing himself to himself and even without a loss, foolish Christians still call that idiocy a sacrifice.

Mod: Welcome to Boards and the Christianity forum. I'd ask you to read the forum charter - thanks.

Gnostic Christian Bishop

J C wrote: »

Jesus Christ is true God and true Man.
He summarises His atonement for sin as follows:-
Jn 3:13-17
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

God is a good judge! You joke. Right?

He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

The above quote shows this as Gods first actual judgement and shows the setting and accepting of a bribe or human sacrifice to corrupt his justice. That justice usually stated that only the punishment of the guilty was acceptable to justice and that it would be unjust to punish the innocent. That corruption of his usual justice is what the bribe or sacrifice of Jesus bought. Injustice.

This corrupted judge is the judge you would vote for is it?

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop

J C wrote: »

My answer is that I have no merit opposite an infinitely holy God ... so I'm relying on somebody else to pay for my sins ... and that somebody is Jesus Christ.

What is your answer to your question?

Strange that a God would create you without the requirements of salvation within you the way Jesus taught. Strange that your God created you dependant on him.

Would you do such a vile thing to your children?

So much for his saying we would all come to repent.

My answer is in the words of the Jesus you do not know.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

---

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


When you can name your God "I am", and mean yourself, then you will begin to know God.

Till then, remain the idol worshiper that you are. Do not seek God the way Jesus said you must.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop

J C wrote: »

Abraham believed that the Messiah would come to save him ... indeed, he was promised that the Saviour would be a lineal descendent of his and all Humanity would be blessed through him, as a result.

Yes. Through the male line and since God is supposedly Jesus' father, that prophesy is killed.

Then again. Jesus was what, the sixth man born of a virgin?

God must have cuckolded more than one and is a deadbeat dad more than once. How vile.

Regards
DL

J C

Gnostic Christian Bishop wrote: »

Yes. Through the male line and since God is supposedly Jesus' father, that prophesy is killed.

It was fulfilled through the female line ... so God's plan was fulfilled through the humble obedience of Mary to her God.

Gnostic Christian Bishop wrote: »

Then again. Jesus was what, the sixth man born of a virgin?

... only six?? ... I'm sure there have been many, many claims of Parthenogenesis ... when expaining the 'unexpected' arrival of a baby!!!

However, in the case of Jesus Christ, he fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah ... and performed miracles, including His own ressurrection from the dead ... thereby proving Himself to be God and Man.

Gnostic Christian Bishop wrote: »

God must have cuckolded more than one and is a deadbeat dad more than once. How vile.

Regards
DL

God cuckolded nobody ... the conception of Jesus Christ was willingly accepted by Mary ... and was fully known to Joseph.
... and God is never 'deadbeat' to those who love Him ... or indeed to those who hate Him ... as He wishes that nobody should be lost ... but He will not force anybody to accept Salvation.

J C

Gnostic Christian Bishop wrote: »

Strange that a God would create you without the requirements of salvation within you the way Jesus taught. Strange that your God created you dependant on him.

Would you do such a vile thing to your children?

So much for his saying we would all come to repent.

My answer is in the words of the Jesus you do not know.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

---

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


When you can name your God "I am", and mean yourself, then you will begin to know God.

Till then, remain the idol worshiper that you are. Do not seek God the way Jesus said you must.

Regards
DL

... so how am I Saved, in your opinion?
... or are you saying that I am already God ?
If you believe that I'm God, then you have a much higher opinion of me, than I have of myself!!!:):D

Benny_Cake

Gnostic Christian Bishop wrote: »

Yes. Through the male line and since God is supposedly Jesus' father, that prophesy is killed.

Then again. Jesus was what, the sixth man born of a virgin?

God must have cuckolded more than one and is a deadbeat dad more than once. How vile.

Regards
DL

Mod: There are places for posts such as this. This isn't one of them. Don't post on this thread again.

newmug

Gnostic Christian Bishop wrote: »

God is a good judge! You joke. Right?

This corrupted judge is the judge you would vote for is it?

Regards
DL

I'm completely lost. Whats all this about bribes? And are you saying that God is NOT a good judge?


Please GCB, explain your philosophy to us in plain English, in bullet point form, without the sarcasm / borderline insults.




Here's my very basic understanding of things, I'd like you to outline your views similarly:

• God exists
• One day, God created everything, the Universe, the Supernatural world, and by extension you and me.
• The entire point of creation was to get people into Heaven. You get there by having zero sins when your Earthly life has passed.
• One caveat was that people were given free will. This would inevitably cause problems, as nobody is perfect. God knew this, and he knew that he would have to rescue us one day.
• He appeared to Moses in the burning bush, and tried to explain how things should be done. Over time however, man corrupted this.
• God then came as a man, called Jesus. He again tried to explain things, but the people executed him.
• God knew this would happen, but he allowed it anyway. It changed things in a good way. Now, instead of an eye-for-an-eye type justice, there was mercy and forgiveness available to those who asked for it, justice already having been served by Jesus's unfair murder. Kinda like having your debts written off by seeking bankruptcy, the bill being footed by the taxpayer.
• So as if we needed another reason to think God is brilliant, he came down here as a man, took the beating for us, and now he'll give us a free ticket to Heaven if you just ask for it! Goodness, forgiveness, mercy and love all in one!
• The only downside is, if you don't get into Heaven, you'll end up in hell. God doesn't "send" anybody there, its kinda the default option cos we're all sinners anyway. Its can be compared to being in negative equity and debt for the rest of your life if you choose to do nothing, whereas you can be free if you go and SEEK OUT bankruptcy.

So there's my summation of things. I know there's some whopping inaccuracies in there, but just muse me for the sake of keeping things simple. Now, lets hear YOUR POV. If you cant post on this thread, copy and paste this into a new one and give us your basic view.

Benny_Cake

Mod: FYI - Gnostic Christian Bishop has been permanently sitebanned. So he won't be replying.

J C

newmug wrote: »

I'm completely lost. Whats all this about bribes? And are you saying that God is NOT a good judge?


Please GCB, explain your philosophy to us in plain English, in bullet point form, without the sarcasm / borderline insults.




Here's my very basic understanding of things, I'd like you to outline your views similarly:

• God exists
• One day, God created everything, the Universe, the Supernatural world, and by extension you and me.
• The entire point of creation was to get people into Heaven. You get there by having zero sins when your Earthly life has passed.
• One caveat was that people were given free will. This would inevitably cause problems, as nobody is perfect. God knew this, and he knew that he would have to rescue us one day.
• He appeared to Moses in the burning bush, and tried to explain how things should be done. Over time however, man corrupted this.
• God then came as a man, called Jesus. He again tried to explain things, but the people executed him.
• God knew this would happen, but he allowed it anyway. It changed things in a good way. Now, instead of an eye-for-an-eye type justice, there was mercy and forgiveness available to those who asked for it, justice already having been served by Jesus's unfair murder. Kinda like having your debts written off by seeking bankruptcy, the bill being footed by the taxpayer.
• So as if we needed another reason to think God is brilliant, he came down here as a man, took the beating for us, and now he'll give us a free ticket to Heaven if you just ask for it! Goodness, forgiveness, mercy and love all in one!
• The only downside is, if you don't get into Heaven, you'll end up in hell. God doesn't "send" anybody there, its kinda the default option cos we're all sinners anyway. Its can be compared to being in negative equity and debt for the rest of your life if you choose to do nothing, whereas you can be free if you go and SEEK OUT bankruptcy.

So there's my summation of things. I know there's some whopping inaccuracies in there, but just muse me for the sake of keeping things simple. Now, lets hear YOUR POV. If you cant post on this thread, copy and paste this into a new one and give us your basic view.

A very good summary of the Christian Faith.

I like the Bankruptcy analogy ... it's very good and very accurate.:)

What does a 'siteban' mean ... is the Gnostic gentleman banned from this forum or the entire Boards?

Turtwig

newmug wrote: »

I'm completely lost. Whats all this about bribes? And are you saying that God is NOT a good judge?


Please GCB, explain your philosophy to us in plain English, in bullet point form, without the sarcasm / borderline insults.




Here's my very basic understanding of things, I'd like you to outline your views similarly:

• God exists
• One day, God created everything, the Universe, the Supernatural world, and by extension you and me.
• The entire point of creation was to get people into Heaven. You get there by having zero sins when your Earthly life has passed.
• One caveat was that people were given free will. This would inevitably cause problems, as nobody is perfect. God knew this, and he knew that he would have to rescue us one day.
• He appeared to Moses in the burning bush, and tried to explain how things should be done. Over time however, man corrupted this.
• God then came as a man, called Jesus. He again tried to explain things, but the people executed him.
• God knew this would happen, but he allowed it anyway. It changed things in a good way. Now, instead of an eye-for-an-eye type justice, there was mercy and forgiveness available to those who asked for it, justice already having been served by Jesus's unfair murder. Kinda like having your debts written off by seeking bankruptcy, the bill being footed by the taxpayer.
• So as if we needed another reason to think God is brilliant, he came down here as a man, took the beating for us, and now he'll give us a free ticket to Heaven if you just ask for it! Goodness, forgiveness, mercy and love all in one!
• The only downside is, if you don't get into Heaven, you'll end up in hell. God doesn't "send" anybody there, its kinda the default option cos we're all sinners anyway. Its can be compared to being in negative equity and debt for the rest of your life if you choose to do nothing, whereas you can be free if you go and SEEK OUT bankruptcy.

So there's my summation of things. I know there's some whopping inaccuracies in there, but just muse me for the sake of keeping things simple. Now, lets hear YOUR POV. If you cant post on this thread, copy and paste this into a new one and give us your basic view.

Excellent post,

Unfortunately this thread was started by a serial re-reg troll. Was then mostly spurred on by another banned user and benny had to delete tonnes of posts. I think it's best to just kill this mess and reflect on newmugs worthwhile contribution.

If you anyone would like for this to remain open please pm us. In case I'm being premature in my hopes for this thread.
Again, thanks to all for the constructive contributions.