A question about eating eggs and dairy

Pat Custard

As far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, vegan people tend to abstain from eggs because of the male chicks being ground up / slaughtered because they are useless and / or because the chickens are kept cooked up in cages and used / abused as egg-producing machines.

Similarly, dairy is abstained from because veal calves are a side-product of the dairy industry and because the cows are kept cooked up / used / abused etc.

Sorry for the spiel, my question is, would you, as a vegan be OK with eating eggs if they came from a pet hen? Suppose I go to a farm and I buy 100 chickens bound for the slaughter and I keep them in the best of conditions, completely free-range with food / water. Hens being hens, they will lay eggs. Would you see it as OK to eat those eggs provided there is no cock to fertilize them?

Similar question for cows. If I bought cows from a farmer bound for slaughter, and Kept them in the best of conditions as a pet / friend, would it be OK to drink her milk?

Sorry for the long-winded post. I just want to see people's opinions on this.

--LOS--

I personally wouldn't no.

Because there are 2 main things wrong with stealing eggs.....

-it goes against what the chicken normally does, it's not normal for a chicken to lay eggs continuously which is what happens when the eggs get stolen. A chicken lays a nest's worth of eggs, then nests on them for about 3 weeks. If you're taking away the eggs, the chicken keeps laying eggs, there's no break, that's not good for the chicken. Obviously it doesn't compare to the level of overproduction that egg farms cause, but it's still wrong imo.

-And then secondly because a chicken needs to eat their own eggs to replace the nourishment lost from producing them. So they obviously can't do that if you don't leave them any to eat. I guess people use chicken feed to replace the calcium they lose, but why do that when they have their own natural way of sourcing their nutrients.

Nevermind the fact that you are eating a hen's period, which is the weaker argument :P

And it's just not healthy, it's a lot more ethical no doubt, but it's still needless and unhealthy and morally wrong imo.

Again that's just my own personal view on it, I have heard of vegans that keep hens, but then I would say you can't really call yourself vegan if you're eating dairy and eggs.

I like this article here on it.

Also I'm not sure how getting chickens bound for slaughter is possible, those chickens probably aren't even still capable of producing eggs.


With cows, cows milk is for baby cows and I'm not a baby cow, it's also not healthy and associated with some cancers and other things like osteoporosis so it is needless. It's more ethical sure.

I think it also becomes a slippery slope. I'm happy eating plant-based for the rest of my life, it wouldn't make much sense to be avoiding leather and avoiding lactose in medications and avoiding all types of indirect dairy in food, on top of direct sources like milk and cheese, and then to be drinking milk from a cow at home. That would just go completely against my own values. But not everyone would feel as strongly as me.

Just Like Heaven

A lot of vegans will immediately take issue with you paying for the animals bound for slaughter, you could argue that they would have been killed if you hadn't bought them, but it creates a dilemma as then vegans haven't really removed their financial support.

That besides, some might see little issue with eating the eggs, the scenario you describe is similar to somebody who doesn't support pet shops accepting a pet from somebody who bought the animal from a pet shop but is now fed up of it or whatever.

There's more reasons against the dairy, like, why is the cow lactating? Have you artificially inseminated it for the purpose of milk production? Is the calf being denied, does the milking damage the udders and leave the cow vulnerable to infection and illness etc. There's probably a lot of issues here.

The vast majority of vegans are happy with their diets and many have done enough research to make sure they're getting all the nutrition they need without animal products, I don't really know any that are unhealthy or unhappy with their diet and miss the convenience of animal product or actively crave meat/eggs/dairy etc. But continue to deprive themselves for the sake of animals. So that might be a problem. Also, many avoid things like dairy in particular for health concerns too.

Just Like Heaven

--LOS-- wrote: »

Because there are 2 main things wrong with stealing eggs.....

-it goes against what the chicken normally does, it's not normal for a chicken to lay eggs continuously which is what happens when the eggs get stolen. A chicken lays a nest's worth of eggs, then nests on them for about 3 weeks. If you're taking away the eggs, the chicken keeps laying eggs, there's no break, that's not good for the chicken. Obviously it doesn't compare to the level of overproduction that egg farms cause, but it's still wrong imo.

-And then secondly because a chicken needs to eat their own eggs to replace the nourishment lost from producing them. So they obviously can't do that if you don't leave them any to eat. I guess people use chicken feed to replace the calcium they lose, but why do that when they have their own natural way of sourcing their nutrients.

That's interesting thanks, I had somebody ask if I had an argument against them keeping hens recently (not that I was giving out to them or anything! I was just at their house whilst they were feeding their hens at the time and they're always asking what the hell I eat ). And I knew those arguments existed too but didn't mention them cause I hadn't really looked at it properly.

Tar.Aldarion

There are a number of issues at play here that make it not ok. Firstly a lot of vegans wouldn't see animals as a commodity to be used like taht and would jsut like to leave them in peace. For cows: How do cows produce milk? It is for their young no different than us, basically they are artificially inseminated and forced to procreate, then the calves are taken from them and milked. This wouldn't be ok. I believe it is the case that if a cow gave birth naturally and was milked frequently it would never stop, I think. In that case it's possible that the cow could have fed the calf and kept being milked, but I'm not too sure that is very ethical to keep it doing that! There is also the issue of what happens when they stop producing, in this scenario would they just be killed, that's what happens now.

As for chickens they naturally lay eggs so it is more natural, so I do wonder about that myself. I know my friend has had chickens their whole lives and they are happy out in the garden/fields, laying eggs and often never even going back to them and they seem happy.They give the chickens a break, not always taking the eggs. But tbh the chicken often runs off and forgot it lays some and lays some more! The first ones go rotten and are often found in neighbours gardens long forgotten. I am interested to know of any problems with this apart from not thinking of them as a commodity in and of itself. I had less concerns eating them before when i could give the happy chicken a rub and a thank you in person at her house :pac:

A concern might be, where are these chickens coming from? Are they from factory farms where male chicks are being killed and so forth. In some sort of world where chickens are all being released due to animal cruelty that may be less of an issue, but the question remains, what of the male chickens? Are they being killed still, are you adopting those too and then what about fertilization and so on. There would be less issues if the males were looked after too but I'm sure there are many more concerns.

Just Like Heaven

The laying eggs and forgetting about them is probably less normal behaviour in hens that haven't been previously for their eggs perhaps though?

I agree though, if I HAD to keep hens for eggs or a cow for milking I'd choose the hens, ethically speaking.

Zombienosh

I've always wanted to have chickens hanging around, not for eggs just more because I think they're awesome.

--LOS--

Zombienosh wrote: »

I've always wanted to have chickens hanging around, not for eggs just more because I think they're awesome.

I know I love chickens now, all chickens on the internet are awesome. Ofc when I was small I just thought they were pretty stupid and I never knew they could be nice to people, all they did was peck me, ofc because I was trying to catch the baby chicks. When I see these videos of farm sanctuary chickens online and people are just holding them and rubbing them, I'm like how is that chicken not pecking them :-o But I obviously get now if you're nice to them, they're nice to you.

BMJD

Eggs are just menstrual waste really, I wouldn't be partial to that sort of thing. Similarly, I wouldn't drink breast milk from a dog, cat or any other species so why target cows? Neither seem remotely natural to me, leaving aside the obvious animal welfare issues.

blatantrereg

You don't need 100 chickens to provide plenty of eggs for personal consumption in season. About five would probably be enough for a family. They are seasonal though when they are kept in natural conditions. Commercial production involves using lights and heating to keep them laying the most eggs.

Chickens have been bred for various purposes. Broilers are bred for meat production specifically. Some of these grow so fast that their legs break under their own bodyweight as a matter of course. Layers are bred to ignore their own eggs to make it easy to collect them. This means that they are often incapable of reproducing without human assistance via an incubator. Other breeds are suitable for both egg and meat production and there are breeds used as show hens, which I think are the ones most suitable as pets or being kept in the sort of situation you describe.

I get the impression you are speaking hypotehtically, but it might be pointless rescuing chickens due for slaughter. From a humane aspect they might not be capable of having normal lives if they are a breed that suffers injuries just from walking. From a practical perspective it might be difficult to get an adequate yield of eggs.

It is certainly possible to keep chickens in a pleasant environment with space to roam and forage and to collect their eggs. I've known a few people who have done so. You would just need to make sure that the breed used is suitable. Also you need to balance freedom to roam with protection from predation (dogs, foxes, possibly some cats).

Pat Custard

I'll add this in here. Hope it's OK to merge into my own OP.

Does anyone know if it's possible to get a bees nest in your own garden?

Would the government help you out with this because aren't bumblebees and honeybees an endangered species?

is it true that bees produce about a tablespoon of honey in their lives (per bee !!) and this is supposed to do them for winter and hibernation and people come and gobble it up (greedy bastards )

Would keeping a nest have any positive impact on the population of our kilkenney friends?

blatantrereg

Yes it is possible to get a beehive. My brother's friend was trying to keep bees. I think he had some difficulty with it. It might require acquired skills to keep them and harvest honey, although I'm just asssuming that is why you are interested. Obviously you need specialist equipment.

I don't think you would be eligible for a grant for it. There was no mention of that with the guy I heard about.