Pro12 Final 2014: Leinster V Glasgow; RDS; Sat 31/5 6.15pm

justsomebloke

Teams to follow during the week.

As a Leinster fan I can't believe I'm saying this but I'm actually up for both teams.

I can't not be up for Leinster but I think this is Glasgow's year, and I would be happy for them if they were to win.

I can't remember when such a bad team has dominated other teams as much as Leinster has this year but in this age of professional I think our match fitness and strength in depth is what put us on the top of the league.

This is going to be a bruising encounter and god help us all if BOD doesn't come away with one last trophy

danthefan

justsomebloke wrote: »

As a Leinster fan I can't believe I'm saying this but I'm actually up for both teams.

Definitely wouldn't go that far, very much up for Leinster, but would be pleased for Glasgow if they do go and win it.

former legend

justsomebloke wrote: »

Teams to follow during the week.

As a Leinster fan I can't believe I'm saying this but I'm actually up for both teams.

I can't not be up for Leinster but I think this is Glasgow's year, and I would be happy for them if they were to win.

I can't remember when such a bad team has dominated other teams as much as Leinster has this year but in this age of professional I think our match fitness and strength in depth is what put us on the top of the league.

This is going to be a bruising encounter and god help us all if BOD doesn't come away with one last trophy

That's very unfair I think. 82 points is our best haul since it became a 12-team league and only one team scored more tries than us this season. We are not a bad team, we've played some great rugby this season and we've been able to dig out results when needed.

If people are p*ssed off because we lost in Toulon, fair enough, but don't project it onto our league performance which has generally been excellent.

Dave_The_Sheep

former legend wrote: »

If people are p*ssed off because we lost in Toulon, fair enough, but don't project it onto our league performance which has generally been excellent.

Our league performance has been good in that we got results in terms of bonus point wins, etc, but a lot of those results were bad performances. It really was quite bizarre.

sydthebeat

former legend wrote: »

That's very unfair I think. 82 points is our best haul since it became a 12-team league and only one team scored more tries than us this season. We are not a bad team, we've played some great rugby this season and we've been able to dig out results when needed.

If people are p*ssed off because we lost in Toulon, fair enough, but don't project it onto our league performance which has generally been excellent.

well, come on now..... 'excellent' is definitely not a word did use to describe our performances. Perhaps its merited to use that word to describe results, but not performance. Ive watched as many leinster games as has been possible this season and the one over riding aspect that carries over all games has been frustration and relief. Frustration as to how our back line has spluttered and misfired... and relief as to how we've managed to win games, and gain bonus points.
Out of the top four semi finalists we have had the worst points against and conceded most tries.
Yes we have scored the most tries and have the best points difference, but lets put that into perspective. That includes a record win margin of +55 versus treviso with 9 try overhaul.

we followed a loss to Munster by stumbling over the line versus Connacht, then dragons, then a 1 point win versus treviso in italy.....

to be fair, our only consistent performances came during the 6n period where, again which performances were frustrating, our squad strength pulled us to 24 out of a possible 25 points IIFC.


Id be absolutely delighted if we can stumble over the line again, but i fear glasgow. They will be the underdogs and under less pressure. They have been playing better rugby than us.
I think our best chances will come if reddan and madigan start.
also, hopefully that old adage of "you have to lose a final before you can win one" will apply

Quint2010

Leinster need to win this. A third home Pro12 final defeat in five years would be a disaster.

.ak

I'm defo not 'up' for Glasgow, but I wouldn't begrudge Glasgow if they won it.

I'm up for Leinster and Leinster alone though - we need to win it, I think, to put some players in a better place mentally.

awec

Is it bad that I want Glasgow to win?

.ak

former legend wrote: »

That's very unfair I think. 82 points is our best haul since it became a 12-team league and only one team scored more tries than us this season. We are not a bad team, we've played some great rugby this season and we've been able to dig out results when needed.

If people are p*ssed off because we lost in Toulon, fair enough, but don't project it onto our league performance which has generally been excellent.

I'm not even sure why people were so pissed about the Toulon game. We actually played some decent footie but that Toulon team is just a class above anything else currently in terms of raw power and experience.

.ak

awec wrote: »

Is it bad that I want Glasgow to win?

Don't start living your dreams through your rivals now.

awec

.ak wrote: »

Don't start living your dreams through your rivals now.

I think a Glasgow win would bring some healthy variety to the competition and would hopefully be good for the game in Scotland.

.ak

awec wrote: »

I think a Glasgow win would bring some healthy variety to the competition and would hopefully be good for the game in Scotland.

Spoken like a true advocate for the league and Scottish rugby.


Let me translate that for the rest of the boardsies: If Ulster can't win it then those pesky gringos shouldn't either!

:pac:

awec

Leinster are Mexicans, not Gringos!

Larbre34

Them getting to the final, beating good teams along the way, is enough to give them a fillip.

That's far enough as far as Im concerned, in no way would I be magnanimously pleased for them if they beat Leinster. Leinsters record of 1 from 4 finals in this competition in the play-off era is already bad enough, so lets just beat them and leave aside the collegiate rugby attitude on this occasion.

I think we have a struggle on our hands too, probably a thundery close day and if there are downpours it wont suit us.

justsomebloke

But the thing is, it would be good for the game if a Scottish team were to win and they could build on it to expand their fan base accordingly.

As a league we are going to lose more and more good players if we can't bring more money into the game via getting people into grounds or watching it on TV.

This season has been dire for the Pro12 with the Welsh and Italian both saying they wanted to leave and I think a Scottish team winning it (if they put in a champions performance and that's vital) would be great PR for interest in the league abroad.

.ak

awec wrote: »

Leinster are Mexicans, not Gringos!

Hahah, my mistake.

Remember a load of lads getting sambreros last year.

Teferi

awec wrote: »

Is it bad that I want Glasgow to win?

If Leinster had of been knocked out I would be cheering for Glasgow in the final myself. It's good for the health of the league and god knows that Scottish rugby needs a kick up the arse which a win could help. Beyond that they've been playing nice rugby and I loved their reaction at full time against Munster in the semi. They really want it.

CatFromHue

It's good for the league for Glasgow to win but it's good for me if Leinster win!

Our league form has been excellent. MOC has got Brian Clough raving in his grave as he's actually won the league better than Schmidt ever could by finishing with 82pts.

Tox56

CatFromHue wrote: »

Our league form has been excellent. MOC has got Brian Clough raving in his grave as he's actually won the league better than Schmidt ever could by finishing with 82pts.

Results or performance wise? I don't know if you're being intentionally vague but there has been a pretty massive difference

CatFromHue

We've never finished with 82 pts before so I term that excellent.

The amount of losing BP's we've given to teams we've beaten has stayed around the same of 6/7 too.

ssaye2

Whats all this gentlemanly good for the league business. The league may be weakening but as a Leinster fan I don't want any other team to beat them EVER.

If Glasgow win I will congratulate them but saying I wouldn't mind Leinster to lose for the good of the league is going a little bit beyond sportsmanship into this



Sick and tired of losing league finals, Win everything please.

former legend

We are playing better this season than we did last season. With a new coach and a weaker team, I'm counting that as a good outcome.

irishbucsfan

It's also not good for the league to devalue it by handing out the title as charity to teams you feel deserve it... Also can't imagine it comes across as charity.

Tox56

former legend wrote: »

We are playing better this season than we did last season.

You keep saying this but I couldn't disagree more. No point going further into it as we're not going to get anywhere

former legend

Tox56 wrote: »

You keep saying this but I couldn't disagree more. No point going further into it as we're not going to get anywhere

Only because people keep saying how bad we are, despite finishing top of the league.

Just to save me typing it all again:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90437858&postcount=389

irishbucsfan

We were pretty poor at times last season. But I felt the team had the potential to do a lot more with the ball. Certainly the way we actually played last season was at times disappointing, and if we win on Saturday there'll be no real way to argue that this season hasn't been more successful. A lot of people do seem to ignore the areas we've done well this season to suit the reality they've crafted for themselves. But in areas like the way we've chosen to use possession I have been pretty frustrated.

But even outside a death-to-MOC world, I think we have become a more limited side this season, and that will prevent us from consistently performing against elite opposition. Although if MOC's remit is to build a team that will win 3 Rabo Pro 12s in a row, I reckon we're on the right track at the moment.

justsomebloke

former legend wrote: »

We are playing better this season than we did last season. With a new coach and a weaker team, I'm counting that as a good outcome.

No we aren't playing better, we are just getting better results, there is a huge difference.

prospect

I want Leinster to do it, regardless of all else.

Although, I wouldn't be too upset if Glasgow win, cause I stuck a few quid on them few weeks ago.

justsomebloke

former legend wrote: »

Just to save me typing it all again:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90437858&postcount=389

Truthfully I think the quality of the opposition teams for the most part were better last year coupled with us having bigger injury concerns last year.

former legend

justsomebloke wrote: »

No we aren't playing better, we are just getting better results, there is a huge difference.

We played some awful rugby last season, absolutely terrible, but there is a collective amnesia about it for some reason.

This season, maybe we haven't hit the occasional heights (and yes, they were occasional) that we did last season, but we have been more consistent.

.ak

former legend wrote: »

We played some awful rugby last season, absolutely terrible, but there is a collective amnesia about it for some reason.

This season, maybe we haven't hit the occasional heights (and yes, they were occasional) that we did last season, but we have been more consistent.

In fairness, I largely agree with your points FL, but whilst we played some terrible rugby pre-Christmas everything after it was fairly good quality rugby. The only blip being the Ulster game in the RDS, but I think that was coming.

In the Amlin we played especially well. We were certainly a lot more confident with ball in hand than we've been this year.

However, we aren't at the top of the table this year by fluke.

Buer

Aside from the MOC is awful/much better than being given credit for argument, Richie Murphy has been given a really, really soft ride this season.

This is the guy who is responsible for skills. Our skills have been arguably the single weakest part of our game this season. So many poor passes, dropped catches etc. have led to missed opportunities and are directly linked to our lack of accuracy in the opposition 22. I've very rarely seen his name mentioned.

.ak

Buer wrote: »

Aside from the MOC is awful/much better than being given credit for argument, Richie Murphy has been given a really, really soft ride this season.

This is the guy who is responsible for skills. Our skills have been arguably the single weakest part of our game this season. So many poor passes, dropped catches etc. have led to missed opportunities and are directly linked to our lack of accuracy in the opposition 22. I've very rarely seen his name mentioned.

I thought that a few times myself. But he had the same role under JS.

Are we to assume that Murphy has just let standards slip totally? I find that hard to believe. Especially considering MOC has the opportunity to replace him and he's also working with Ireland as the same role.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We were pretty poor at times last season. But I felt the team had the potential to do a lot more with the ball. Certainly the way we actually played last season was at times disappointing, and if we win on Saturday there'll be no real way to argue that this season hasn't been more successful. A lot of people do seem to ignore the areas we've done well this season to suit the reality they've crafted for themselves. But in areas like the way we've chosen to use possession I have been pretty frustrated.

But even outside a death-to-MOC world, I think we have become a more limited side this season, and that will prevent us from consistently performing against elite opposition. Although if MOC's remit is to build a team that will win 3 Rabo Pro 12s in a row, I reckon we're on the right track at the moment.

There is nothing death to MOC about thinking we have performed poorly for a huge chunk of this season! Don't have anything against him just going on what I've seen

Buer

.ak wrote: »

I thought that a few times myself. But he had the same role under JS.

Are we to assume that Murphy has just let standards slip totally? I find that hard to believe. Especially considering MOC has the opportunity to replace him and he's also working with Ireland as the same role.

He did have the same role but I would say Schmidt took a more active role in that area himself last season (and with Ireland); the skill levels were something he actively worked on when he originally arrived. Perhaps Murphy now has been left with more responsibility in this area to look after the skills and deliver rather than working in tandem with someone like Schmidt.

Some may recall that Murphy was given a broader remit for the opening half of last season, reportedly. Schmidt took more of a back seat at that time and the coaches took a more senior role in running things. It didn't work though and the performances slipped in that period too (along with some fairly brutal results).

TheGoldenAges

former legend wrote: »

We played some awful rugby last season, absolutely terrible, but there is a collective amnesia about it for some reason.

This season, maybe we haven't hit the occasional heights (and yes, they were occasional) that we did last season, but we have been more consistent.

The reason for the slow start (Exeter, Glasgow) was our team was coming off the back of the World Cup year and after getting an extended break. Coming into that first match with Exeter sure we played close to a full strength side but for most it was their 2nd game back. Off course after an extended period there were gonna be rustiness.

For the Clermont game we were ravaged with injuries. You seem to take into account the game at the Aviva but the previous week we were brilliant at the Marcel Michelin, we were brilliant and pulled off the game plan to a T and for a faulting lineout in their 22 we probably would have won that game with the amount of territory in the second half. For the match at the Aviva, the gap between games if I remember correctly was 5 days. With an already overstretched squad we were there for the taking.

Sure there were some inconsistent displays in the Rabo but there were also some impressive wins which this season I could count them on one hand. Northampton, maybe the second half for 25 minutes vs Munster, Ospreys away. The rest have been rather inconsistent where we've been error prone and ponderous for long periods

So despite our league record, no we've not played better this season than last season.

shuffol

Our league form has to be put in perspective, the standard of opposition is particularly weak this season and the depth in our forwards is outstanding. We scrummage virtually every side off the park even with a 3rd choice front row. Whilst our back play has been almost exclusively poor a large part of the problem is our backs just aren't good enough.

molloyjh

former legend wrote: »

We played some awful rugby last season, absolutely terrible, but there is a collective amnesia about it for some reason.

This season, maybe we haven't hit the occasional heights (and yes, they were occasional) that we did last season, but we have been more consistent.

Hang on, you say we've performed excellently this season and claim others have amnesia!? Sure the results have been excellent, but you can't argue that our TBP win against Zebre in the RDS was an excellent performance. It was muck. Or the Edinburgh game a couple of weeks ago? Or the SF against Ulster where we failed to score until almost the hour mark at home (by my recollection that's the longest we've been held scoreless at home in the last 5 years).

Sure we had a bad run in the first half of last season, but in the second half of the season we were genuinely good. Of course there were a couple of hiccups, but against really good opposition like Glasgow and Ulster that's not the end of the world. When you play badly against them that's one thing. When you play badly against Zebre and Edinburgh at home that is a totally different ball game, especially with the quality we had out against Edinburgh in particular. It wasn't a perfect season by any means, but we turned it around from January onwards. If anything this season we've gotten worse as time has gone on.

Anyway, I think we'll win this one. I don't think Glasgow have the cup winning mentality down and probably should have lost to Munster really. They didn't look to have the composure. And that's definitely one area where we'll be head and shoulders above them. If they did manage to beat us I'd be gutted to lose another final in the RDS, but it would be good for the league and for Scotland.

19543261

Buer wrote: »

He did have the same role but I would say Schmidt took a more active role in that area himself...

If we kept doing some of those passing drills or whatnot under MOC, would that standard have been retained? What would you put that drop in standard down to.

molloyjh

19543261 wrote: »

If we kept doing some of those passing drills or whatnot under MOC, would that standard have been retained? What would you put that drop in standard down to.

Actually we were watching the lads warm up for the SF against Ulster and noticed a serious reduction in the time spent on passing drills compared to previous seasons. It's something I want to watch again this weekend to see was that a once off or is it the norm as I haven't really been paying attention this season.

former legend

molloyjh wrote: »

Hang on, you say we've performed excellently this season and claim others have amnesia!? Sure the results have been excellent, but you can't argue that our TBP win against Zebre in the RDS was an excellent performance. It was muck. Or the Edinburgh game a couple of weeks ago? Or the SF against Ulster where we failed to score until almost the hour mark at home (by my recollection that's the longest we've been held scoreless at home in the last 5 years).

Sure we had a bad run in the first half of last season, but in the second half of the season we were genuinely good. Of course there were a couple of hiccups, but against really good opposition like Glasgow and Ulster that's not the end of the world. When you play badly against them that's one thing. When you play badly against Zebre and Edinburgh at home that is a totally different ball game, especially with the quality we had out against Edinburgh in particular. It wasn't a perfect season by any means, but we turned it around from January onwards. If anything this season we've gotten worse as time has gone on.

Anyway, I think we'll win this one. I don't think Glasgow have the cup winning mentality down and probably should have lost to Munster really. They didn't look to have the composure. And that's definitely one area where we'll be head and shoulders above them. If they did manage to beat us I'd be gutted to lose another final in the RDS, but it would be good for the league and for Scotland.

I said we've been "generally excellent", I'm not claiming it's been universally good, just that it hasn't been nearly as bad as people here make out.

When you dismiss the poor performances from last season as hiccups but the poor ones from this season as indicative of a malaise within the squad, I'm not sure how to argue that.

And when people are happy enough to see the other team win, I genuinely don't get that either.

molloyjh

former legend wrote: »

I said we've been "generally excellent", I'm not claiming it's been universally good, just that it hasn't been nearly as bad as people here make out.

When you dismiss the poor performances from last season as hiccups but the poor ones from this season as indicative of a malaise within the squad, I'm not sure how to argue that.

And when people are happy enough to see the other team win, I genuinely don't get that either.

For starters we have not been "generally excellent". We've been generally very poor and managed to squeeze out the results we needed.

Secondly if you read my post again you'll see that I flagged a couple of games as poor games in the second half of last season against good opposition and compared it to consistent poor games this season against both good and poor opposition. It's not a difficult argument to make at all. It's actually very simple:

Last season: Poor first half of the season due to insane injury crisis, much improved second half to the season despite a couple of poor games. We turned things around on the field as well as on the table/pool/trophy cabinet.

This season: Average first half to the season with performances disimproving over time and struggling to get good results over very poor teams. Results going the right way based on a far superior squad to every other team in the league (especially up front). Apparently no idea how to turn around poor performances.

I feel the need to again re-iterate that I don't want MOC gone. I'm hopeful he can turn around our performances next season. But I can't disagree strongly enough with the notion that we've been "generally excellent". It's almost like you're looking at the results, but not actually watching the games.

former legend

molloyjh wrote: »

Last season: Poor first half of the season due to insane injury crisis, much improved second half to the season despite a couple of poor games. We turned things around on the field as well as on the table/pool/trophy cabinet.

This season: Average first half to the season with performances disimproving over time and struggling to get good results over very poor teams. Results going the right way based on a far superior squad to every other team in the league (especially up front). Apparently no idea how to turn around poor performances.

Or to put it another way:

Last season: we were missing a load of front-liners and therefore it's OK that we got absolutely humiliated by Connacht (among other poor showings).

This season: we were missing a load of front-liners and won all the matches but sure of course we did, haven't we got a great squad?

Can we at least be consistent? However good our squad is this season, it was better last season.

LeinsterDub

Quint2010 wrote: »

Leinster need to win this. A third home Pro12 final defeat in five years would be a disaster.

Really ? Unfortunate but not a disaster , to borrow a GAA line , it's only the league

sydthebeat

former legend wrote: »

Or to put it another way:

Last season: we were missing a load of front-liners and therefore it's OK that we got absolutely humiliated by Connacht (among other poor showings).

This season: we were missing a load of front-liners and won all the matches but sure of course we did, haven't we got a great squad?

Can we at least be consistent? However good our squad is this season, it was better last season.

no ones arguing that....

but saying our performances this season have been "generally excellent" is complete revisionism. We have mis-fired all season and apart from the saints away game its quite hard to pick a game where we could say we were "excellent".

"generally average" would be a better discription IMHO

Tox56

former legend wrote: »

Or to put it another way:

Last season: we were missing a load of front-liners and therefore it's OK that we got absolutely humiliated by Connacht (among other poor showings).

This season: we were missing a load of front-liners and won all the matches but sure of course we did, haven't we got a great squad?

Can we at least be consistent? However good our squad is this season, it was better last season.

He already said the first half of last season was poor (not "OK"). He also regards this season as poor, performance wise, and I would agree.

He is being consistent by comparing this season and the first half of last season (not that I completely agree our squad is as bad now as it was in the first half of last season, but for the purposes of this, lets just say it was)

Swiwi.

MOC has announced that CH, JH, and regrettably BOD have been suspended for this weekend's final. Speaking to Newstalk MOC said "We set high standards for our players, but the above image is pretty damning evidence. These are grown men, professional rugby players, not boy band groupies. Even if they blame their WAGS for dragging them along, the photo doesn't exactly paint a picture of regret"

Jack McGrath, Noel Reid and Jordi Murphy are likely to earn promotion from the bench in place of the suspended trio.

.ak

Heard the lad in the middle is getting an academy contract.

molloyjh

former legend wrote: »

Or to put it another way:

Last season: we were missing a load of front-liners and therefore it's OK that we got absolutely humiliated by Connacht (among other poor showings).

This season: we were missing a load of front-liners and won all the matches but sure of course we did, haven't we got a great squad?

Can we at least be consistent? However good our squad is this season, it was better last season.

Wow. You do remember that we were missing players left and right last season due to injury. Not just first teamers, but also back-up players etc. Which led us to go so far as to play Noel Reid at FB in Ravenhill. We were missing several players all at once in various positions for the first half of the season. When some players were coming back others were getting injured in their place. Consistency in selection was nowhere to be seen until after Christmas.

This season we're missing 2 incredibly key players (Sexton and Nacewa) and had a handful of injuries to a couple of lads over the course of the whole season. Our squad selections have been pretty consistent all season. The two things are completely different.

Also while our first string squad is poorer than last season our depth is improved in a number of spots. We have a very solid third string front row for example, which we never had before (and very few other sides in Europe can boast). We haven't lost anyone from the back row and still have Jordi coming on and Ruddock in the form of his life (albeit with Locky dropping off since Christmas). Reid is starting to come good for us too and we've brought in Kirchner who is a very decent player. While Cullens form has dipped, McCarthy has proven to be a very good signing so we're not losing a huge amount there (niggly f*r elements accepted).

The Connacht game was in the first half of the season which I have already pointed out was the really poor half of our season. So I don't know what the point is in bringing that up at all. In fact I am being consistent by using that as a guage for both seasons. Last season we turned around poor performances, this year we haven't.

Is it really so hard to admit that Leinster have played badly for the most part this season? Is it really so hard to admit that the loss of Sexton, Nacewa and Joe along with the decline in ability of Drico and Cullen can only explain so much of that? Is it really so hard to imagine that the Leinster squad that we have should be playing better than they are? And is it really that painful to admit that the quality of the league has dropped sharply this year as well?

shuffol

.ak wrote: »

Heard the lad in the middle is getting an academy contract.

Think Munster have nabbed him already

awec

Swiwi. wrote: »

MOC has announced that CH, JH, and regrettably BOD have been suspended for this weekend's final. Speaking to Newstalk MOC said "We set high standards for our players, but the above image is pretty damning evidence. These are grown men, professional rugby players, not boy band groupies. Even if they blame their WAGS for dragging them along, the photo doesn't exactly paint a picture of regret"

Jack McGrath, Noel Reid and Jordi Murphy are likely to earn promotion from the bench in place of the suspended trio.