Concrete Drainage Problems...

Wonda-Boy

Looking for some advice on drainage for newly laid concrete in the back garden. It appears that water is collecting in a "sag" that was not leveled correctly (long story) and I am looking for the best way to channel the water. A friend suggested drilling holes through the concrete into the hardcore for drainage which is fine but the amount of water been collected and the area involved I dont think this would suffice. And it would take an awful long time to drain away if this was done.

What are my best options here? In the second picture that is the nearest drain to the flooded area on the RHS.....is my only option an aqua drain/gully to that drain?

Really appreciate any help or ideas.

Guttervac

You could get a few metres of channel drain( about €15 a metre) and cut out a channel with con saw at the lowest point and run it into the gully near the house, from the photo looks directly in line with gully so no bends required.

Wonda-Boy

Guttervac wrote: »

You could get a few metres of channel drain( about €15 a metre) and cut out a channel with con saw at the lowest point and run it into the gully near the house, from the photo looks directly in line with gully so no bends required.

Thanx for reply...

I would deffo have to run it into the drain gully at the house would I? I was going to run a channel drain parallel to the wall about 10 inches out and perforate the plastic channel with holes (say 6 to 8) Hoping that it would seep into the hardcore so I would not have to run it across the concrete?

So a channel drain would be the best course of action either way?

Guttervac

Yes, it would have to be run into gully to take water away quickly as the areas shown seem to be holding quite a bit of water. Drilling holes in the drain would only work for a short time before it got blocked with silt, dirt etc. Do it correctly the first time and then your finished with it. It's not a big job, couple of yours would do it.

Wonda-Boy

Might have to pay someone to do it for me.....might be a bit beyond my expertise! Thanx for the help....

Sonnenblumen

Simply install an unconnected gulley and your problem is solved. There isn't that much surface water involved.

Use a kango to break out a small section of concrete (150x150mm), pop in gulley (Hopper head only + grille) and make sure it fits just below surface level. Make good and secure in-situ with a little cement and job done.

Wonda-Boy

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Simply install an unconnected gulley and your problem is solved. There isn't that much surface water involved.

Use a kango to break out a small section of concrete (150x150mm), pop in gulley (Hopper head only + grille) and make sure it fits just below surface level. Make good and secure in-situ with a little cement and job done.

So in your opinion no need to consaw the concrete across the to the exsisting drain and insert two channel drains in the link below?


http://www.navanhireanddiy.ie/index.php/aqua-drains-1.html

Guttervac

Sorry but you would be wasting your time and effort doing it that way, I would give it 6 months before the gully is useless, ground below would be saturated and unable to take any more water let alone the gully hopper full of crap. Instead of paying to hire a kango, hire a consaw and do it properly for pretty much the same cost apart from of bit on concrete to make good channel with wavin going to existing gully. I have been laying/repairing patios, driveways etc for 20 years and have seen this method of drainage installed on many occasions but always fails to do the job in the longer term, maybe just long enough for contractor to get paid.

Wonda-Boy

Guttervac wrote: »

Sorry but you would be wasting your time and effort doing it that way, I would give it 6 months before the gully is useless, ground below would be saturated and unable to take any more water let alone the gully hopper full of crap. Instead of paying to hire a kango, hire a consaw and do it properly for pretty much the same cost apart from of bit on concrete to make good channel with wavin going to existing gully. I have been laying/repairing patios, driveways etc for 20 years and have seen this method of drainage installed on many occasions but always fails to do the job in the longer term, maybe just long enough for contractor to get paid.

I tend to agree with you Guttervac, I think with the volume of water I am dealing with a channel drain linked to the exsisting drain is the only way to go.

If I was looking at paying someone for doing this how much we talking ball park?

Guttervac

Should cost no more than €250 including the bits and pieces needed, obviously should have been installed before concreting and would have cost a fraction of this.

Wonda-Boy

Guttervac wrote: »

Should cost no more than €250 including the bits and pieces needed, obviously should have been installed before concreting and would have cost a fraction of this.

Lovely stuff thanx a mill for the input, appreciate it.

Sonnenblumen

Guttervac wrote: »

Sorry but you would be wasting your time and effort doing it that way, I would give it 6 months before the gully is useless, ground below would be saturated and unable to take any more water let alone the gully hopper full of crap. Instead of paying to hire a kango, hire a consaw and do it properly for pretty much the same cost apart from of bit on concrete to make good channel with wavin going to existing gully. I have been laying/repairing patios, driveways etc for 20 years and have seen this method of drainage installed on many occasions but always fails to do the job in the longer term, maybe just long enough for contractor to get paid.

Sorry but I disagree, and if you look at the photos, what was there before the concrete? Most likely soil, is there a history of flooding in the area?

I'd be very confident that I know more about what I am talking about than you. We're professional landscapers not repairers.

Take a chill pill and don't be casting aspersions against individuals you know nothing about.

Wonda-Boy

I really value all input here lads so lets not get negative on each other......

Before the concrete it was indeed grass and soil underneath with no history of flooding, there is at least 4inches of hardcore under the concrete now. I think what ever solution I use I do have to hook it up to the exsisting drain. Otherwise it would take days to drain away the volume (2 inches at least at the deepest part)

Thanx again for the input.

dardevle

do you have the falls needed to get water from the wall to the existing gully?
you may have to go to the manhole instead??

if you use aco channel, how will it match up to old concrete as regards creating a trip edge?





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redser7

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Sorry but I disagree, and if you look at the photos, what was there before the concrete? Most likely soil, is there a history of flooding in the area?

I'd be very confident that I know more about what I am talking about than you. We're professional landscapers not repairers.

Take a chill pill and don't be casting aspersions against individuals you know nothing about.

Nobody cast any apsersions, he simply disagreed with you. And don't advise people how they should behave.

Wonda-Boy

dardevle wrote: »

do you have the falls needed to get water from the wall to the existing gully?
you may have to go to the manhole instead??

if you use aco channel, how will it match up to old concrete as regards creating a trip edge?

.

Not entirely sure if I have the fall required but I should have, the main manhole on the RHS of the pic is about 4/5 inches lower (the drain itself not the lid) then the concrete.

Hence me asking questions on here, I am looking for the best solution all round.

Would I be better off putting a square drain smack bang in the middle of the concrete and running a pipe over rather then an aqua channel.
Any suggestions?

Sonnenblumen

redser7 wrote: »

Nobody cast any apsersions, he simply disagreed with you. And don't advise people how they should behave.

What are you on about? I disagree with you and I suggest you read what was within his post.

I've no problem with someone having a different opinion, but his comment went beyond that.

Guttervac

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Sorry but I disagree, and if you look at the photos, what was there before the concrete? Most likely soil, is there a history of flooding in the area?

I'd be very confident that I know more about what I am talking about than you. We're professional landscapers not repairers.

Take a chill pill and don't be casting aspersions against individuals you know nothing about.

Didn't cast aspersions on anyone. Just giving my honest opinion on how I think would be the way to proceed to rectify the op's problem and after 20 years of a running a successful landscaping business and building hundreds of patios and driveways I think my input would be helpful. In my opinion, a 4 inch gully hopper would be nowhere near sufficient to take the surface water of at least 20-30 metres of concrete in the mid to long term when it's sitting at the bottom of a muddy puddle. Not sure what constitutes a 'professional landscaper' as opposed to someone who does it for a living and does it correctly but professional or not I certainly would not recommend your method of drainage to anyone. Maybe I'm not the one needing the chill pill as you put it.

redser7

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

What are you on about? I disagree with you and I suggest you read what was within his post.

I've no problem with someone having a different opinion, but his comment went beyond that.

I did read his post and yours too and so did the several people who complained about your reply. He disagreed with your advice and you made it personal.
Try to keep it on topic please.

Jakey Rolling

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Simply install an unconnected gulley and your problem is solved. There isn't that much surface water involved.

Use a kango to break out a small section of concrete (150x150mm), pop in gulley (Hopper head only + grille) and make sure it fits just below surface level. Make good and secure in-situ with a little cement and job done.

This is very likely to silt up and become useless within a couple of years.

At the very least you would want to have a gully / trap that can be accessed for cleaning out.

Source: Personal experience of a cheap and cheerful contractors job.

Wonda-Boy

Deffo gonna get a channel drain hooked up to the drain on the right of the pic.....the amount of rainfall we get in this country it needs to be done right.

dardevle

as you will be laying the aco channel back against the fall in concrete to the gully, it may not be possible to keep it to the level of existing concrete, which could leave varying levels or more making good to be done to achieve a finish,

might be better with just a hopper/gully at lowest point in concrete run with wavin to existing gully??

watch as the water dries up/evaporates and mark the low point with crayon....then you can check the fall from the lowest point of concrete to the entry point in the gully to determine the levels you are working with.



.

Wonda-Boy

Thanx for the advice lads.....

Do you think making channels ( or a V for want of a better word) in the concrete with a consaw to "ferry" the water towards the gully would suffice? A freind of mine suggested it.

I think the amount of water accumulating is too much for simple grooves to be cut.

prospect

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

Thanx for the advice lads.....

Do you think making channels ( or a V for want of a better word) in the concrete with a consaw to "ferry" the water towards the gully would suffice? A freind of mine suggested it.

I think the amount of water accumulating is too much for simple grooves to be cut.

To what end? Cheaper than a channel block?

I nice straight cut with a consaw and a level well fitted channel block would look neater and be better at moving the water than cutting 'v' in the concrete (imo).

Wonda-Boy

Just hope I have the fall for the channel drain tot he gully. Dont want a serious "Bump" driving in and out of the concrete.

prospect

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

Just hope I have the fall for the channel drain tot he gully. Dont want a serious "Bump" driving in and out of the concrete.

It will only need a small fall.

If you look at the pic I posted you'll notice a few cm of concrete each side of the channel block. This can be your 'buffer' for the fall required. In your garden, set the edge of the block nearest the wall exactly level with the concrete. with a slight drop towards the drain. Keep the same slight drop as you lay each channel block.

When you are done, fill the gap on each side of the channel blocks, it will be level near the wall, and ramped slightly on the end nearest the drain.

dardevle

the picture posted above is a retrofit of channel, fit into driveway at the same level as the existing concrete - the op's requires the channel refit against the fall of the concrete, the concrete is sloped away from the house while the channel needs to fall towards the house ...the only way to end up without a bump is to slope the channel up to the house - or am I missing something
.

Wonda-Boy

dardevle wrote: »

the picture posted above is a retrofit of channel, fit into driveway at the same level as the existing concrete - the op's requires the channel refit against the fall of the concrete, the concrete is sloped away from the house while the channel needs to fall towards the house ...the only way to end up without a bump is to slope the channel up to the house - or am I missing something
.

That is the jist of it alright. The deepest part of the pool is more or less level
with the drain but as I travel towards the drain the concrete slopes down about an inch. So it will be arkward to a mere mortal like me to get it right....

dardevle

its the difference between a DIY job or having someone in to do it - if its a DIY job you are after then I would go no further than putting a gully trap at the lowest point to take standing water to existing gully....to put 4 meters of channel drain in would just be overkill - there is no standing water between the wall and the house other than at the lowest point near the wall, imo the majority of the channel drain would be redundant unless you are future proofing against some unforeseen happening,


/

_Brian

Guttervac wrote: »

Sorry but you would be wasting your time and effort doing it that way, I would give it 6 months before the gully is useless, ground below would be saturated and unable to take any more water let alone the gully hopper full of crap. Instead of paying to hire a kango, hire a consaw and do it properly for pretty much the same cost apart from of bit on concrete to make good channel with wavin going to existing gully. I have been laying/repairing patios, driveways etc for 20 years and have seen this method of drainage installed on many occasions but always fails to do the job in the longer term, maybe just long enough for contractor to get paid.

It can work in some situations, just depends on the ground..
My BIL laid tarmac at his house maybe 15 years ago, each gully has a sump with about a wheelbarrow of 2" stone thrown in.
They never have flooding problems... The site is in Cavan so the natural drainage wouldn't be the best either..

Personally I don't like the idea and all mine are piped to a shore.. But it can work just fine.

If I were OP you'd need to be really sure of the falls before cutting all the way across.. I might try the blind sump first if I were you, worst case you'd just have to rip across the yard anyway, but for me that would be the last resort.

Guttervac

_Brian wrote: »

It can work in some situations, just depends on the ground..
My BIL laid tarmac at his house maybe 15 years ago, each gully has a sump with about a wheelbarrow of 2" stone thrown in.
They never have flooding problems... The site is in Cavan so the natural drainage wouldn't be the best either..

Personally I don't like the idea and all mine are piped to a shore.. But it can work just fine.

If I were OP you'd need to be really sure of the falls before cutting all the way across.. I might try the blind sump first if I were you, worst case you'd just have to rip across the yard anyway, but for me that would be the last resort.

That would be more of a French drain, which works fine in certain situations. For the op to put in a French drain would involve a lot more work and upheaval than putting in channels. Putting in a gully in the concrete is not what your BIL did. Also this would have been done before the concrete was laid so the drainage in the hole could measured to see if a French drain will work.

Wonda-Boy

Forgive the mental block here lads but, if I stick in a square gully trap at the lowest point I will still have to cut the concrete to connect it to the drain. No real point in just sticking in the gully trap and not connecting it to the drain is there? If it would work it would be brilliant but there is about 4/5 inches of 804 hardcore down.

If I do have to connect that to the drain I might aswell stick in just 2 x 1 metre channel drains and do my best to get the fall as good as possible.

_Brian

Guttervac wrote: »

That would be more of a French drain, which works fine in certain situations. For the op to put in a French drain would involve a lot more work and upheaval than putting in channels. Putting in a gully in the concrete is not what your BIL did. Also this would have been done before the concrete was laid so the drainage in the hole could measured to see if a French drain will work.

With respect
I know what a French drain is and a square sump with a barrow of 2" stone isn't a French drain, so please don't start telling me what my BIL did.

It's not ideal no matter what OP has to do at this stage as it's going back over poured concrete.

Depending what soil and stone is under the concrete OP may well get away with a gully down into the hardcore. Personally I would try this before cutting across newly laid concrete. Yes it may not clear of water as quickly as an open drain. But it's all compromises for OP now no matter what. If that wasn't working to OP satisfaction then you could consider ripping across the new concrete.

Sonnenblumen

Guttervac wrote: »

Didn't cast aspersions on anyone. Just giving my honest opinion on how I think would be the way to proceed to rectify the op's problem and after 20 years of a running a successful landscaping business and building hundreds of patios and driveways I think my input would be helpful. In my opinion, a 4 inch gully hopper would be nowhere near sufficient to take the surface water of at least 20-30 metres of concrete in the mid to long term when it's sitting at the bottom of a muddy puddle. Not sure what constitutes a 'professional landscaper' as opposed to someone who does it for a living and does it correctly but professional or not I certainly would not recommend your method of drainage to anyone. Maybe I'm not the one needing the chill pill as you put it.

Guttervac

Well it works on the same principle. You said your BIL put a gully into a barrow ful of stone below the concrete, this is not the same a putting a gully hopper into concrete to take the water off 20-30 metres of path and hoping for the best. A 4 inch hole in concrete as was suggested will not work long term. End off. I will leave it at that now and let the op make up his mind to which is the best method to correct this problem but I think he already knows. He could also engage the services of a pro and get it sorted in a couple of hours and never have to think about it again.

gctest50

Just break up the section and lay it again ?

via this method

Guttervac wrote: »

He could also engage the services of a pro and get it sorted in a couple of hours and never have to think about it again.

cheaper than rebuilding the wall when it falls from subsidence n stuff

redser7

I'm sure you've been given some great advice but you seem a bit stuck between opinions. You might find consensus if you try the Construction or DIY forums.