Enfield

BillyBoy13

Lads, quick question for a friend.

Hes looking to get something like an enfield or garand (though probably the enfield since its bolt action and thus non-restricted)

So two questions:


1) This is his first vintage rifle and he's all ears for suggestions for a nice budget rifle. This is what hes currently eyeing up:

http://www.shoot.ie/shooting/centerfire-rifles/lee-enfield-no1-mk3-rifle.html

Anybody have any advice on this rifle? Buy? Avoid? Is there anything else he should be considering?



2) Seeing as 303 is expensive would it be a big job to convert a 303 enfield to take a 308?

tac foley

You can buy a Lee-Enfield No4 rifle ALREADY in .308Win - they were made in the Ishapore Arsenal for the Indian government, about 500,000 of them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishapore_2A1_rifle-

They are, of course, 7.62x51 NATO calibre, and the application for it will have to note that by stating .308Win/7.62x51 NATO under calibre. The reason for having it is to take part in classic and vintage rifle competitions and practice therefore.

.308Win is certainly going to be a lot cheaper than .303 British, although you'll have to find the load it likes - usually around 150gr or so. They were made to shoot the NATO round, which varied from 147gr to the later 150gr bullet.

I can't comment on any other kind of Lee-Enfield as they are a complete minefield unless you know exactly what you are buying, but if he HAS to have a Lee-Enfield, then I recommend that he finds a late-build Long Branch No4 Mk2 version, rather than something that's been hauled around the rockier parts of the Commonwealth behind a truck, as many seem to have been.

Give John K a call at Fingal Sports in Naul, and see if he can help out.

Even the .308Win version is elegible for shooting with the VCRAI, and a look into their website wouldn't do any harm - www.vcari.com - loads of members there shoot L-Es of one kind or another, and, of course, they have a real history in Ireland.

tac

BillyBoy13

tac foley wrote: »

You can buy a Lee-Enfield No4 rifle ALREADY in .308Win - they were made in the Ishapore Arsenal for the Indian government, about 500,000 of them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishapore_2A1_rifle-

They are, of course, 7.62x51 NATO calibre, and the application for it will have to note that by stating .308Win/7.62x51 NATO under calibre. The reason for having it is to take part in classic and vintage rifle competitions and practice therefore.

.308Win is certainly going to be a lot cheaper than .303 British, although you'll have to find the load it likes - usually around 150gr or so. They were made to shoot the NATO round, which varied from 147gr to the later 150gr bullet.

I can't comment on any other kind of Lee-Enfield as they are a complete minefield unless you know exactly what you are buying, but if he HAS to have a Lee-Enfield, then I recommend that he finds a late-build Long Branch No4 Mk2 version, rather than something that's been hauled around the rockier parts of the Commonwealth behind a truck, as many seem to have been.

Give John K a call at Fingal Sports in Naul, and see if he can help out.

Even the .308Win version is elegible for shooting with the VCRAI, and a look into their website wouldn't do any harm - www.vcari.com - loads of members there shoot L-Es of one kind or another, and, of course, they have a real history in Ireland.

tac

Hmm its worth noting there from that link:

these weapons were not designed for use with commercial .308 Winchester ammunition.

tac foley

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

Hmm its worth noting there from that link:

That's true. However, when you have endless amounts of NATO surplus to shoot, that's academic.

Would I be right in thinking that that this is not the case in the RoI?

However, NO Lee-Enfield such as that shown in Duffy's advertisement should be considered safe to shoot with commercial .308Win - the Ishapore rifles were based on the the later and stronger No4 model, and were designed for it in the fust place. Note, however, that many No4s have been converted to 7.62z51 by changing only the extractor, which is a fraction longer - you probably wouldn't notice the difference unless you have them side by side. There is also a 'reinforce' bridge on the rear of the action, too.

Your pal might have to bite the bullet and stick with the real thing- ie., Prvi Partizan 174gr FMJ.

Nobody ever said that shooting classic rifles was a way of actually saving money...;)

tac

rowa

The model of gun that fails proof testing in the birmingham proof house most often is the .303 british enfields that have been converted to .308 winchester. Although if you compare the .303 and .308 rounds they look very alike, the .303 operates at a max pressure of 49,000 psi , whereas the .308 operates at 62,000 psi, max. The enfield action often can't cope with the extra 13,000 psi.

Prvi make cheap bulk .303 ammo that is identical to the mk 7 military round, so why bother taking the chance on rebarrelling ?

whydave

I've a .303 British Enfield for sale :-)
Prvi .303 British rounds are great value ! And do the job ! :-) :-)

tac foley

rowa wrote: »

The model of gun that fails proof testing in the birmingham proof house most often is the .303 british enfields that have been converted to .308 winchester. Although if you compare the .303 and .308 rounds they look very alike, the .303 operates at a max pressure of 49,000 psi , whereas the .308 operates at 62,000 psi, max. The enfield action often can't cope with the extra 13,000 psi.

Prvi make cheap bulk .303 ammo that is identical to the mk 7 military round, so why bother taking the chance on rebarrelling ?

Rowa - you should qualify that statement, as I did in my post, by making reference to the early Lee-Enfields of the type that Duffy's is advertising. Many No4s have been successfully converted - the British Army's L42A1 sniping rifle was one such example - in service for many years with great success. The civilian version - the 'Enforcer', sells for mucho dinero these days. But the Ishapore No4s were actually BUILT as 7.62x51 from the get-go and are quite capable of taking the extra oomph of the .308Win, as shown by the difference on the proof stamps applied by the BPH -

7.62x51 - 19 tons per inch sq.

.308Win - 21 tons per inch sq.

tac

FISMA

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

...
Anybody have any advice on this rifle? Buy? Avoid? Is there anything else he should be considering?

Although I would prefer a No 4 MkII, if your friend is looking at old war guns, there are a lot of bad choices out there, the No 3 Mk I not being one of them.

Even more specific than that, I would look for a Canadian/Long Branch or "Irish" Enfield.

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

2) Seeing as 303 is expensive would it be a big job to convert a 303 enfield to take a 308?

I could see upgrading the stock, trigger, and easier bits to change. However, changing the barrel is a bit much for me.

Also, if your friend is on a budget, he should get what he wants now, not later. It will be cheaper in the long run.

EWQuinn

If your friend is into this for a vintage rifle, ideally he would not want to modify as that would decrease the historic and maybe the monetary value, and add fair amount of extra cost.

tac foley

Re post #8 -

The Canadian-made Long Branch version would be a 'war gun', but would also be a No4 MkI or II. The 'Irish Enfield' - marked FF for Fianna Fáil - would be hard to find in Europe, although not impossible, since the vast majority of the 55000 made ended up in the USA. They are, of course, NOT 'war guns', as they were never issued to troops, and usually collect a premium price due to their unwrapped and unused condition.

By ugrading the stock, do you mean sticking on a modern, sporter-style stock? Fine, if you don't want to shoot a 'war gun', but I thought that was the premise behind the OP's choice - a rifle with some history.

What other bits are easy to change? The trigger on the early guns can be improved, but not by a replacement like a modern trigger - Fulton's of Bisley do this, and can tune the rifle to best of tis possible performance. Doing this on a rifle that has never had it done will cost a small fortune - better to buy a 'Fulton regulated' known gun in that case.

Changing the calibre of an older-style, that is to say, pre-No4 L-E is NOT a simple barrel swap. I have not seen it done.

BTW, there were issues with the civilian conversions of the N4 to 7.62 - see - http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?360887-No4-conversion-to-7-62&p=2986189#post2986189

TTTT, by now I would have expected to have seen commennts from the LERAI...?

tac

Beano

What happened to all the Enfields that the irish defence forces had? Were they sold off or are they wrapped in cosmoline in a warehouse somewhere?

Witcher

Canadian guy I follow on Youtube has a video up of an old 90's catalogue of milsurp rifles. One of the ad's in it was for Irish contract Enfields, they were about $150 to buy through the catalogue at the time..maybe even less.

Few weeks ago I saw one in my own dealers think it was a No.4, it had the front sight etc. cut off, a flat bottom benchrest type stock on it and a muzzle brake:pac: I wanted to put it out of its misery:p Same dealer does get in some new (old) milsurps now and again, always the first thing I look for when I'm there..newer gear Tikkas/Remingtons etc don't really interest me as much.

cookimonster

Beano wrote: »

What happened to all the Enfields that the irish defence forces had? Were they sold off or are they wrapped in cosmoline in a warehouse somewhere?

AFAIK they where sold on to Canada and African countries (South Africa?)

tac foley

cookimonster wrote: »

AFAIK they where sold on to Canada and African countries (South Africa?)

Sounds reasonable to me - both countries have close connections with the L-E and the .303 cal. RSA used to make some very fine milsurp available for many years - all gone now, though.

tac

Savage93

cookimonster wrote: »

AFAIK they where sold on to Canada and African countries (South Africa?)

Only the best and newest went abroad for sale, thousands more were removed from barracks, transferred to Haulbowline, put on Navy ships and dumped into the Atlantic.:(:(

alanmcqueen

Read posts by 'Fritz' ....

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?322796-Fritz-s-FF-marked-Enfield-sticky

cerastes

rowa wrote: »

The model of gun that fails proof testing in the birmingham proof house most often is the .303 british enfields that have been converted to .308 winchester. Although if you compare the .303 and .308 rounds they look very alike, the .303 operates at a max pressure of 49,000 psi , whereas the .308 operates at 62,000 psi, max. The enfield action often can't cope with the extra 13,000 psi.

Prvi make cheap bulk .303 ammo that is identical to the mk 7 military round, so why bother taking the chance on rebarrelling ?

?
The .303 is a rimmed cartridge, doesn't it also have a very distinctive long rounded bullet

opposed to the un rimmed .308 (7.62) which has a spitzer bullet, pointed with boat tail?

Id have thought they look very un alike.

It wasn't me!

The .303 can be loaded with a wide variety. The most well known is a 174gr spitzer which pretty much accompanied the transition to nitrocellulose based powders. The older 215gr round nose was mostly a black powder load.

cerastes

I see, but doesnt it still have a rimmed case? that stands out, I thought the case was more angled than the .308 too.
Its a nice idea, I'd like to get my hands on one of those FF stamped types
that or a Garand, pipe dreams.

tac foley

The early round-nosed .303 bullet was replaced by a completely re-designed bullet back in 1910 -

Quote - 'In 1910, the British took the opportunity to replace their Mk VI cartridge with a more modern design. The Mark VII loading used a 174-grain (11.3 g) pointed bullet with a flat-base which gave a muzzle velocity of 2,440 ft/s, (740 m/s) and a ballistic coefficient of .467.'

The MkI .303 British Service cartridge was adopted by Britain in 1889 to partner the Lee, Metford Rifle.

The round, as originally adopted, consisted of a 215 Gr, round nosed, cupro nickel jacketed bullet with of 71.5 Gr of RFG2 Blackpowder. The powder charge was pressed into a pellet with both ends slightly rounded and pierced with a central flash propagating hole. There was a glazeboard wad on top of the charge to protect the bullet base. It had a small boxer type primer and was officially designated "Cartridge, S.A., Ball, Magazine Rifle, Mark 1.C. Solid Case, .303inch". Muzzle velocity was 1830 fps, chamber pressure about 19 tons per sq".

Cordite became the propellant from 1891, the "Cartridge S.A. Ball, Magazine Rifle Cordite Mark 1", had a 215 Gr round nosed cupro-nickel jacketed bullet with a muzzle velocity of about 1970 fps, chamber pressure of about 17.5 tons per sq".

Cordite was used until 1915, when shortages of cordite in World War I led to United States–developed smokeless powders being imported into the UK for use in rifle cartridges.

This 174gr projectile is an almost exact copy of the 7.5mm projectile of the Swiss GP11 round, adopted in that year to replace THEIR round-nosed bullet. This is unsurprising, when you consider that Lt Col Eduard Rubin spent a number of years at the Enfield factory - helping to develop the early .303 British cartridge. Both cartridges use the same weight of bullet - 174gr - but the British were loathe to adopt a rimless case, preferring the rimmed case beecause it was thought to be stronger with the metallurgy of the day.

This mean that any machine gun used by British forces had to pull the case out of a belt and then insert it into the breech, unlike a rimless case that can be 'punched' straight through a flexible metal link and directly into the breech. As a result, chickens came home to roost big time when the Germans developed the 1200 rpm MG42, leaving the British and Commonwealth way behind with their cranky old rimmed round Vickers [Maxim] MGs firing 600 rpm...

tac

cerastes

tac foley wrote: »

The early round-nosed .303 bullet was replaced by a completely re-designed bullet back in 1910 -

Quote - 'In 1910, the British took the opportunity to replace their Mk VI cartridge with a more modern design. The Mark VII loading used a 174-grain (11.3 g) pointed bullet with a flat-base which gave a muzzle velocity of 2,440 ft/s, (740 m/s) and a ballistic coefficient of .467.'

This 174gr projectile is an almost exact copy of the 7.5mm projectile of the Swiss GP11 round, adopted in that year to replace THEIR round-nosed bullet. This is unsurprising, when you consider that Lt Col Eduard Rubin spent a number of years at the Enfield factory - helping to develop the early .303 British cartridge. Both cartridges use the same weight of bullet - 174gr - but the British were loathe to adopt a rimless case, preferring the rimmed case beecause it was thought to be stronger with the metallurgy of the day.

This mean that any machine gun used by British forces had to pull the case out of a belt and then insert it into the breech, unlike a rimless case that can be 'punched' straight through a flexible metal link and directly into the breech. As a result, chickens came home to roost big time when the Germans developed the 1200 rpm MG42, leaving the British and Commonwealth way behind with their cranky old rimmed round Vickers [Maxim] MGs firing 600 rpm...

tac

interesting, I wasnt aware of that, I'd thought the round nosed bullet lasted longer than that.
Still they probably had good reason not to change over their ammunition manufacturing capacity to an unrimmed case which might have been viewed as an unknown quantity, cant see when would have been a suitable time to do it. I dont know if they tested rimless cases.

Faster firing MG's probably have their problems too, barrel wear, ammunition consumption, other.
Personally id prefer a garand to an enfield, but the chances.

tac foley

cerastes wrote: »

interesting, I wasnt aware of that, I'd thought the round nosed bullet lasted longer than that.
Still they probably had good reason not to change over their ammunition manufacturing capacity to an unrimmed case which might have been viewed as an unknown quantity, cant see when would have been a suitable time to do it. I dont know if they tested rimless cases.

Faster firing MG's probably have their problems too, barrel wear, ammunition consumption, other.
Personally id prefer a garand to an enfield, but the chances.

Most nations had changed from rimmed to rimless case way before then. The Mauser of 1888 and the Schmidt-Rubin of 1889 were both rimless, as were the cases of most military arms.

AFA records show, the British never trialled a rimless cartridge version of the .303.

tac