Did modern feminism get it wrong about men?

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller

Think the following article, which appeared in The Telegraph and which was written by Natasha Devon* is excellent:

Modern feminism has got it wrong about men

Today's feminism teaches women to see themselves as victims and men as perverts, bullies and misogynists, says Natasha Devon

Earlier this year I was asked to present at a feminist society event in one of the UK's largest and most prestigious universities. I espoused the view that I must be really lucky, because if recent feminist musings in the press and online are to be believed, misogyny is absolutely rife, yet I have very rarely encountered it.

I've had the odd blustering huffer-puffer over the years who has clearly thought himself superior, but I've always presumed that's because of my comparative age and slightly avant garde fashion sense, rather than the simple fact of my vagina. (Whilst it isn't right to form assumptions about someone based on these criteria, it does take the issue out of the realms of feminism.) These instances have, however, been incredibly few and far between. As for the men I regularly spend time with - my male colleagues and friends, boyfriend, dad, my three brothers and numerous uncles and cousins - they've never given me any cause to suspect they're anything but pro-gender equality.

At the end of the session, one of the Society's senior members said: "It's great that you don't think there's any misogyny in your world, but I think if you talked to these men for long enough you'd find there were some pretty sinister ideas about women buried somewhere beneath the surface."

In that moment, I suddenly realised why so many aspects of the modern feminist movement in Britain irritate me so much. Don't misunderstand, I'd consider myself a feminist and I'm all for structural changes which ensure equal treatment of the sexes - the types that are working to ensure we have an equal number of female MPs and laws to prevent female genital mutilation, for example. But cultural "feminist" changes, the types that insist lads mags, Page 3 and wolf-whistling are automatically offensive and should therefore be scrapped from the public consciousness, I have always struggled to comprehend. For, at their crux is the notion that men are either genetically or socially conditioned to be evil. This explains why relatively harmless acts - an admiring glance, a whistle, a propensity for lads mags - are imbued with such weighty significance, often lazily labelled as "rapey".

If a man looks at me, I infer he's doing it for the exact same reason a woman would - because he finds me interesting to look at. If a man whistles at me, I take it as the compliment I believe it was intended to be. If I see a man looking at a female glamour model, I suppose nothing more than he is looking at her because a naked woman is pretty much universally aesthetically pleasing. I have always assumed that Robin Thicke's Blurred Linestranspired to be the most downloaded single of all time in the UK because it's well produced and ridiculously catchy, not because huge swathes of the male population delight in the notion that men "know women want it" and use the lyrics as their life mantra. Call me naive if you must.

I've become increasingly bemused by the "Twitter activists" whose "feminist" world view, however much they try to disguise it, necessitates a dim view of mankind. Some, for example, have taken to posting pictures of men looking at Page 3 on the train, with captions branding these individuals "creepy", "vile" and "disgusting" without any sort of meaningful explanation.. These women have made a broad assumption about what their male subjects are thinking - based on we know not what - and despise the product of their own projections.

Similarly, I'm horrified with the regularity and ease with which the word "misogynist" is flung about online. Recently, I wrote an article for a feminist publication on the importance of prioritisation and pragmatism in social progression and suggesting these were often sadly absent from feminist campaigning. During the subsequent inevitable Twitter storm (during which "feminists" threatened to "rip me apart", called me a "piece of s---" and a "brainless bimbo" in an incredibly sisterly fashion) a male tweeter calmly pointed out several historical instances where negotiation had resulted in progression. As a result, he was publicly called a "pendantic misogynist" by the mob.

A pedant he might have been, but it's worth noting the official definition of misogynist as "someone who hates women" rather than "anyone who dares question the popular feminist status quo".

In the same article, I dared to suggest that we should take into account men's feelings and viewpoints on key feminist issues. "Men have had their voices heard for FAR TOO LONG! IT'S OUR TURN!" came the online battle cry, as though even garnering some male opinions would be a threat to womankind's empowerment, so toxic and self-serving they would inevitably be.

The Everyday Sexism movement is a fantastic idea - an opportunity for an open debate on the ways in which genders mindlessly form prejudices against each other. So why have its followers largely excluded men from the conversation? "You can't be sexist towards men!" was a university student's response to this question at another debate I attended (she was studying feminism, by the way). Which is a bit like saying black people can't be racist.

In Britain in 2014, girls are entitled to the same education as boys, they can then go on to get any job they want and be paid the same as a man. Not only is this not true for millions of women throughout the world, it wasn't true for our foremothers. I'd much rather say to young women, "these rights were hard won. Go and make the most of them" than "no wonder you can't fulfil your potential! Men whistle at you and there are boobies in the newspaper, you poor helpless little things".

Today's feminism teaches British women to see themselves as victims and victims cannot exist without a villain, in this instance – men. In order for this thesis to have any kind of logic, feminists have made sweeping, inaccurate judgments about an entire demographic, based on nothing more than their gender. Ironically, the exact practice they claim to be fighting.

Gender equality requires co-operation on all sides.

As a humanist, I'd like to see today's feminists give men a bit more credit - they might just be surprised.


*Natasha Devon is a writer, television pundit and founder of the Body Gossip Education Programme, which delivers self-esteem classes to teenagers all over the UK. Natasha works alongside the All Parties Parliamentary Group on Body Image and is petitioning Education Secretary Michael Gove to give more priority and funding to Personal, Health and Social Education. She was named a Mental Health Association ‘Hero’ in 2012, one of Ernst & Young’s top 50 Social Entrepreneurs in 2013 as well as one of Cosmopolitan Magazine's 'Ultimate Women'.

I think Natasha nailed so much of what I feel is true in the above and just hope the upcoming female generation (that have yet to be so negatively influenced, as the current and recent ones have, with regards to the nature of men) will be as astute and perceptive on such matters, as she undoubtedly is.

baby and crumble

It's a pretty complicated topic though. In my generation (early 30's) I think I'm in a "sweet spot" in lots of ways. My male peers treat me equally, and I honestly don't think the majority have any warped ideas about my abilities, or anything like that.

HOWEVER.

I do experience some kinds of misogynistic attitudes in both older and younger generations of men. AND an awful lot of women in those generations are completely feeding into it, which pisses me off no end. It's casual though- offhand remarks that on the surface are indeed innocuous, but I do think hint at pretty bad attitudes. It's mostly in the areas of media (fictionalised) and business.

But I agree, I think a lot of fear-mongering is happening which isn't helpful at all. Lots of women see men as either ready to beat the crap out of them, or too stupid to work a washing machine. I get just as annoyed by adverts, for example, that assume as soon as a perfectly competent man sets foot in the home he looses all sense and will try and cook a chicken in the dishwasher as I do the attitude that women who menstruate can't possibly hold down a job as a CEO of a massive company because once a month she turns into a raving psychopath.

Max Powers

i cant imagine anyone under the age of say 50, having the slightest sexist views. Look at all the cases of it, all old blokes well past their sell by date, Inverdale on BBC tennis, Berlusconi, the morons that used to be on sky sports... eh joe brolly...is he under 50?????? maybe make that 45 years of age

Buroschaf

It makes you wonder how anyone could be so stupid as to be pissed off by a man looking at page 3. Usually when people react so strongly like that their self interests or self image is perceived to be under threat.

The part that is really insane is when the feminist said that men "have had their say, now it's our turn". This person speaks as if men and women are two single eternal entities. As if a man is to blame for something another man may have done hundreds of years ago to another woman hundreds of years ago. It's this identification with with such concepts that is dangerous for society and causes such rage when their bizaare self image includes all women throughout time.

No one is to blame for what someone else did before they were even born.

Standman

..but it's worth noting the official definition of misogynist as "someone who hates women" rather than "anyone who dares question the popular feminist status quo".

This is definitely something that I've noticed a lot. Many people seem to think that misogyny means "anything that comes close to criticising women, or that kind-of-sort-of disagrees with my opinion on [insert womens issue here]".

baby and crumble

Max Powers wrote: »

i cant imagine anyone under the age of say 50, having the slightest sexist views. Look at all the cases of it, all old blokes well past their sell by date, Inverdale on BBC tennis, Berlusconi, the morons that used to be on sky sports... eh joe brolly...is he under 50?????? maybe make that 45 years of age

Trust me, you'd be surprised. I know a lot of fairly young men in the tech industry who are fairly overt in thinking that women just can't programme or fix a computer. Not because of proven inability, but because they have ovaries, presumably.

GalwayGuy2

This explains why relatively harmless acts - an admiring glance, a whistle, a propensity for lads mags - are imbued with such weighty significance, often lazily labelled as "rapey".

Not sure I agree with the whistle, but the rest is +1

Is it just me or are more of the above comments coming out from feminist sectors? Were people just ignoring the stereotyping going on, but now feel like they can critique it?

Maybe it's just my imagination, but I genuinely believe people are getting more comfortable with critiquing feminism.

osaurus

Good read. There is a place for both feminism and the men's rights movement however like everything in the world it's the extremists that ruin it for everyone. That's on both sides of the coin. I feel both movements are changing their views little by little over time. This is in part due to gaps closing in historically male or female dominated jobs.

Stheno

baby and crumble wrote: »

Trust me, you'd be surprised. I know a lot of fairly young men in the tech industry who are fairly overt in thinking that women just can't programme or fix a computer. Not because of proven inability, but because they have ovaries, presumably.

baby and crumble wrote: »

It's a pretty complicated topic though. In my generation (early 30's) I think I'm in a "sweet spot" in lots of ways. My male peers treat me equally, and I honestly don't think the majority have any warped ideas about my abilities, or anything like that.

HOWEVER.

I do experience some kinds of misogynistic attitudes in both older and younger generations of men. AND an awful lot of women in those generations are completely feeding into it, which pisses me off no end. It's casual though- offhand remarks that on the surface are indeed innocuous, but I do think hint at pretty bad attitudes. It's mostly in the areas of media (fictionalised) and business.

I'd agree with both of these posts, not that which I have not quoted

Shakespeare's Sister

osaurus wrote: »

There is a place for both feminism and the men's rights movement however like everything in the world it's the extremists that ruin it for everyone

Yet in the article, "modern feminism" full stop is equated with those extremists - when obviously there are people who only subscribe the aspects of feminism today which focus on when women are affected negatively because of their gender, not those extreme aspects that seek to put down men.

J.O. Farmer

I think the problem with feminism or at least todays stereotype is that feminists seem to want greater rights than men to somehow counterbalance the inequality of the past or the perceived inequality now.
I don't see women as any different to men in terms of rights. I see women as biologically different to men. While a heterosexual woman probably won't find a page 3 model attractive a heterosexual man might. That's nature. The page 3 model presumably agreed to pose in return for an amount of money she was happy with the same as anybody doing a job.
Men in general are physically stronger so as a man who works with plenty of women it is my job to do the heavy lifting. I don't think that this is sexist. The women are treated differently and unequally in this respect. If we take feminism to the extreme though I should not lift anything for any woman because we want equal rights for all.
I think that most men and women nowadays know that men and women are equal in most respects but that they are also different as in opposites in gender and all that goes with that.

Pawwed Rig

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

Men in general are physically stronger so as a man who works with plenty of women it is my job to do the heavy lifting. I don't think that this is sexist.

But it is sexist as you are talking about averages, unless you are stronger than all of the women you work with. And lets be honest, there are very few jobs anymore that require lifting on the upper end of what you are capable of. Usually any lifting will be allocated to the man

J.O. Farmer

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

But it is sexist as you are talking about averages, unless you are stronger than all of the women you work with. And lets be honest, there are very few jobs anymore that require lifting on the upper end of what you are capable of. Usually any lifting will be allocated to the man

I think you have to go with averages because there are people of both genders at each end the spectrum in that regard. Nobody should be liftng anywhere near the upper end of what they are capable of. While a woman may be capable of lifting X amount it could be at the upper end of her capabilities where it may only be in the mid range for a man. I don't think it's a sexist post and you have kind of agreed by saying that lifting is generally left to the man. It would be sexist if I went around going only men can lift things.What i said is men in general can lift heaviier things than women. It's just an example as to how men and women are different without a women's rights being affected.

Pawwed Rig

But to bring your thoughts to their logical conclusion then a man even if he is less able should be required to do the manual work as on average men are more able?
These are the kinds of bias that restrict jobs for men and women. Women are seen as better at child minding so make up the majority of creche workers and primary school teachers. Men are a lesser risk to hire in the workforce because generally on average women will be absent from the workplace for greater periods. Sexism loves averages

J.O. Farmer

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

But it is sexist as you are talking about averages, unless you are stronger than all of the women you work with. And lets be honest, there are very few jobs anymore that require lifting on the upper end of what you are capable of. Usually any lifting will be allocated to the man

Sorry I reread your post there. As it happens I work with 2 women who it is probably safe to say that I am stronger than. I have to do heavy lifting if it needs done however I don't just throw my weight about and say the women can't lift anything. They do do there share. As you point out most things are not that heavy and normally its a case of them saying can I grab something and then being asked if I need help. We have had occasion lately to move some very heavy equipment and my boss a woman has arranged for some men from a different departmwnt to help me.
I hope I'm not coming across as a slap her on the backside and tell her to run home and cook the dinner type because I'm not.

J.O. Farmer

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

But to bring your thoughts to their logical conclusion then a man even if he is less able should be required to do the manual work as on average men are more able?
These are the kinds of bias that restrict jobs for men and women. Women are seen as better at child minding so make up the majority of creche workers and primary school teachers. Men are a lesser risk to hire in the workforce because generally on average women will be absent from the workplace for greater periods. Sexism loves averages

You see thats the problem with feminism. They think that all women are the same. They talk about the average salary for women etc. even though there are probably reasons for differences in the statistics they supply to support there argument.
I have dealt with averages when talking in general terms. In any given situation you have to deal with whats present. If say I worked with a female bodybuilder for example then I would have no problem with her doing heavy lifting. For what it's worth women are better at some jobs than men are in general. Taking blood for example I always found women better in general. Some were better than others and I can't say all. I might struggle to find a job that I could say men are generally better at than women.
Certainty there are proffessions mainly male dominated. Some of that could be tradition and more of it could be aptitude. I'm thinking engineering and the like. However I'm sure any woman working in the area will be as good as any man on average. I have to deal with averages or you could take a very specific man and a very specific woman to say either sex was better.

DrFloppy

baby and crumble wrote: »

Trust me, you'd be surprised. I know a lot of fairly young men in the tech industry who are fairly overt in thinking that women just can't programme or fix a computer. Not because of proven inability, but because they have ovaries, presumably.

Really? You know a lot of these men? I've worked in IT for nearly 20 years in various companies, I network regularly and I've never once in all that time heard a fellow programmer or other techie express that kind of sentiment. Ever.

Admittedly it's a very male dominated industry and there's a large movement to get more women into tech now. To the point that many feminist techies are blaming men that such a booming industry is so male-dominated. But when I got involved in a debate, pointing out that over 90% of my computer science class back in college in the 90's were men, I was shouted down for being a misogynist!

Modern/radical feminism is silly.

lazybones32

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller wrote: »

Think the following article, which appeared in The Telegraph and which was written by Natasha Devon* is excellent:

I think Natasha nailed so much of what I feel is true in the above and just hope the upcoming female generation (that have yet to be so negatively influenced, as the current and recent ones have, with regards to the nature of men) will be as astute and perceptive on such matters, as she undoubtedly is.

Modern feminism is very different to women's liberation or empowerment: feminism at its lowest common denominator believes in the superiority of womyn over men. There is so much misdirection, hypocrisy and double-standards employed in feminism, that it baffles me how any man or woman could subscribe to it as a 'solution'. Pardon my tardiness, but Game of thrones has started and I will return later...

I don't see first-hand how feminism influences Irish teens and adolescents because I've little interaction with them but I hazard a guess that there is a lot of conflicting information, maxims and realities being bombarded upon them.

pwurple

95% of my class were male, and it's a male-dominated area, but only once in my career have I encountered actual sexism. We were working late on a deadline project, a guy stood up in one of the quick meetings, and said that I should go home and look after my home and family, rather than keep working with the rest of the team. I said "what do you mean", and he told me I should be a "homemaker" instead of out working. I raised my eyebrows at him, and gave it a blank silence. The other guys in the team laughed at him and we all carried on. I should mention this guy wasa not from western europe, so I put it down to a cultural thing maybe? I dunno.

Anyway, That's about the extent of it.

There are some guys who i do kinda sense are slightly surprised or unused to a woman being there. They make huge efforts to get ahead of me to open doors, and look disapprovingly if there is an unladylike joke made. But it never affects me.

diveout

I have many problems with feminism but I have encountered attitudes from older generations of Irish men where I start to see what produced feminism in the first place. It genuinely shocks me and makes me angry when I encounter it.

Recently I was in the supermarket with a trolley full of groceries and I had assumed there was delivery that day and lo and behold no there wasn't. I spoke to the manager and he said he would sort something out.

Later when I was telling a friend about this, an Irish man of an older generation, he asked me if I 'played the helpless woman." It actually made me sick and wanted to say what the **** is wrong with you? Go back in your time machine you retrograde idiot. And I encounter that attitude alot from men of that generation in various forms. Like put in your lipstick when you are trying to have a business meeting and making inappropriate sleezy comments. And then I can really see why feminism emerged and what they are still dealing with.

And as generational attitudes change and morph, it might be harder to see why feminism existed and continues to exist especially as contemporary men for the most part have dropped alot of these attitudes, although I do know one or two men of my generation who appear stuck in the 19th century.

So to my friend I said no. I played the consumer from whom they were about to lose a large sale.

GalwayGuy2

Yay. This is the TGC so I can argue something isn't sexism

Honestly, I think that's part of an older generation's mentality of 'not making a fuss'.

newport2

pwurple wrote: »

95% of my class were male, and it's a male-dominated area, but only once in my career have I encountered actual sexism. We were working late on a deadline project, a guy stood up in one of the quick meetings, and said that I should go home and look after my home and family, rather than keep working with the rest of the team. I said "what do you mean", and he told me I should be a "homemaker" instead of out working. I raised my eyebrows at him, and gave it a blank silence. The other guys in the team laughed at him and we all carried on. I should mention this guy wasa not from western europe, so I put it down to a cultural thing maybe? I dunno.

Anyway, That's about the extent of it.

There are some guys who i do kinda sense are slightly surprised or unused to a woman being there. They make huge efforts to get ahead of me to open doors, and look disapprovingly if there is an unladylike joke made. But it never affects me.

I remember reading somewhere an article written by a woman working in a male dominated environment (NYPD or something like that). She said that what she initially thought was sexist behaviour towards her by men was actually men treating her exactly the same as they treat each other. When she stood back and looked, it was obvious that they made derogatory marks about each other all the time, used demeaning names and honed in to slag each other on any perceived weaknesses that stood out. Her point in the article is that while a lot of woman state they want to be treated equally to men, when it happens they don't like it. (she also stated that she was not denying sexism in the workplace existed - it does - but some of what is perceived as sexism is men treating women the way they treat other men)

Potatoeman

pwurple wrote: »

95% of my class were male, and it's a male-dominated area, but only once in my career have I encountered actual sexism. We were working late on a deadline project, a guy stood up in one of the quick meetings, and said that I should go home and look after my home and family, rather than keep working with the rest of the team. I said "what do you mean", and he told me I should be a "homemaker" instead of out working. I raised my eyebrows at him, and gave it a blank silence. The other guys in the team laughed at him and we all carried on. I should mention this guy wasa not from western europe, so I put it down to a cultural thing maybe? I dunno.

Anyway, That's about the extent of it.

There are some guys who i do kinda sense are slightly surprised or unused to a woman being there. They make huge efforts to get ahead of me to open doors, and look disapprovingly if there is an unladylike joke made. But it never affects me.

I think the attitude comes from people that work with postgrads. IT booms mean more postgrads from other fields cross training and many dont have the knowledge, training or interest to be working in the area.

Henry9

diveout wrote: »

Later when I was telling a friend about this, an Irish man of an older generation, he asked me if I 'played the helpless woman." It actually made me sick and wanted to say what the **** is wrong with you? Go back in your time machine you retrograde idiot.

I've encountered plenty of women who play that card. I was twice in a car with a woman who was being given a talk to by the Guards, both times she used the dumb blonde routine.

A sister of a former girlfriend of mine use to regularly get some passing man to park her car for her, again playing stupid to get someone else to do the work for her.

In my younger days I've worked with girls who did the same. Actually I've seen college girls do it too.

newport2 wrote:

Her point in the article is that while a lot of woman state they want to be treated equally to men, when it happens they don't like it. (she also stated that she was not denying sexism in the workplace existed - it does - but some of what is perceived as sexism is men treating women the way they treat other men)

I've worked with women like that. They want to be 'one of the lads', but feel entitled to lay down ground rules around allowed conversation or suitable subjects for humour.

NordieSteve

Wow.... a feminist I actually agree with. A lot of what she says is right on the money, rational and logical. Her views are borderline egalitarian. No defending her gender because she is the same gender, just cold hard facts. Feminists could learn from this woman.

diveout

Henry9 wrote: »

I've encountered plenty of women who play that card. I was twice in a car with a woman who was being given a talk to by the Guards, both times she used the dumb blonde routine.

A sister of a former girlfriend of mine use to regularly get some passing man to park her car for her, again playing stupid to get someone else to do the work for her.

In my younger days I've worked with girls who did the same. Actually I've seen college girls do it too.


I've worked with women like that. They want to be 'one of the lads', but feel entitled to lay down ground rules around allowed conversation or suitable subjects for humour.

Well I didn't and that is kind of the point. You are not treating the individual for the individual.

What you are going to judge me based on things your stupid friends did?

newport2

diveout wrote: »

Well I didn't and that is kind of the point. You are not treating the individual for the individual.

What you are going to judge me based on things your stupid friends did?

I agree with you 100% diveout.

However, a large chunk of feminists and pretty much all of the media have no qualms about attributing certain acts to "men", ie sexual assault, domestic violence, child abuse, etc. Far more serious allegations than your example.
Regular articles appear in the papers blandly attributing these acts to men (in a lot of cases ignoring statistics and facts that doesn't suit their agenda).
Yet, if someone in the media wrote an article suggesting that some women "play the helpless woman" to get out of doing things, they'd be lynched for it.

I've never done any of those things. Yet if it was my word against a woman's, rest assured I wouldn't be treated as an individual either. I'm going to judged on things bad men did.

If I was killed by my partner and she was on the news sobbing, saying I beat her every night, would you beleive her? Despite the fact you knew neither of us?

lazybones32

Impassioned statements like "Women are the primary victims of War" are further evidence of the hypocrisy and political-footballing of feminism.
Politicians start wars; a majority male army fights and dies in them but women are 'victims' again because of men?

donfers

Unfortunately modern feminism (the extreme outspoken radical element which sadly is the one we hear most and therefore most important for moderates to shout down or the perception is that they tacitly agree) has lost the plot and basically thinks it has carte blanche to blame men for almost every conceivable negative in the world.

Blaming "men" of course is the dumbest strategy you could ever come up with as you alienate half the population instantly, ignorant to the reality that a tiny cabal of people (around .0000000001% of men and women) take decisions that have any kind of tangible effect on your lives. The rest is all hyperbole, hypocrisy and delusional kind of thought-crime fantasies that zealots come up with when they're run out of real things to complain about. These industry feminists aim to self-justify what is increasingly erratic, hateful and discriminatory behaviour. Oh and the real kicker is it is creating a whole legion of backlashers tired of the petty whinges and outlandish claims of the misandrist element of feminism, and who will react to it all by purposefully displaying the kind of behaviour that they are being accused of and on the cycle will go.....

Piliger

An excellent interview with Helen Smith who wrote a very relevant book "Men On Strike".

"And many classrooms across the country convey the message to boys that they will “grow up and rape a girl.” By the time a boy gets through with high school he’s heard so many negative things about men."

Henry9

diveout wrote: »

Well I didn't and that is kind of the point. You are not treating the individual for the individual.

What you are going to judge me based on things your stupid friends did?

I'm not judging you for anything except maybe your over reaction to a lazy assumption.

It actually made me sick and wanted to say what the **** is wrong with you? Go back in your time machine you retrograde idiot.

My point was that given so many women do play the card when it suits them, in certain lines of work you could see a lot of it.
You don't need a time machine, you might only need to go top the reception next door.

newport2

newport2 wrote: »

I remember reading somewhere an article written by a woman working in a male dominated environment (NYPD or something like that). She said that what she initially thought was sexist behaviour towards her by men was actually men treating her exactly the same as they treat each other. When she stood back and looked, it was obvious that they made derogatory marks about each other all the time, used demeaning names and honed in to slag each other on any perceived weaknesses that stood out. Her point in the article is that while a lot of woman state they want to be treated equally to men, when it happens they don't like it. (she also stated that she was not denying sexism in the workplace existed - it does - but some of what is perceived as sexism is men treating women the way they treat other men)

Watch Gilette Soccer Saturday some time next year. There's a female correspondent who stutters plenty and is never called up on it. She could make a mistake in every report without it being mentioned, one of the lads mispronounces a name and it'll be in the Christmas special. It's not ok to "pick on" women.

iptba

I'm unsure whether this is or will be in Time magazine itself

5 Feminist Myths That Will Not Die

Christina Hoff Sommers
Sept. 2, 2014
https://time.com/3222543/5-feminist-myths-that-will-not-die/

iptba

Women Against Feminism: Some women want equality without anger

By Cathy Young | September 02, 2014

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/09/01/women-against-feminism-some-women-want-equality-without-anger/rqFNSIJp22YWQy6jGPvhPJ/story.html

Emme

Feminism helped women achieve equal pay for equal work and the ability to do things like take out a mortgage on their own.

However, the more militant aspects of feminism have done women more harm than good. In the 1980s women "you can have it all" meaning career, partner and children. Time has shown this is not possible for most people.

Dial Hard

The extremely vocal harcore minority have made feminism into a dirty word and it's a bigger shame than I think I lot of people realise because it has essentially changed the entire perception of what was an extremely important and badly-needed movement. To a lot of people, feminism is now pretty much a synonym for misandry, when that was never, ever what feminism was about.

I 100% consider myself a feminist, but I've seen it written on this very forum that "all men" should run a mile from any woman who identifies as a feminist, because, apparently, we're all miserable, man-hating bitches who just want to subjugate and emasculate the entire male population of the world.

Third/fourth wave feminism is not my feminism. I fcuking love men. And I think the genders are far more alike than we are different. But extremely vocal commentators on both sides of the divide refute this. And there is a divide, and it's one that I don't think was so prevalent even ten years ago. There's a poster in TGC who seems to come at every single topic, even if it's unrelated to gender issues, from a viewpoint that there's some kind of outright gender war going on and that all women are in on it. But all I can say is that I, as a self-identified feminist, think 90% of what's spouted by new-wave feminism, most of which seems to be coming out of the US, is utter dross.

diveout

What I don't appreciate about feminism, is a small group of women taking it upon themselves to speak for me.

Shut up.

ancapailldorcha

Dial Hard wrote: »

The extremely vocal harcore minority have made feminism into a dirty word and it's a bigger shame than I think I lot of people realise because it has essentially changed the entire perception of what was an extremely important and badly-needed movement. To a lot of people, feminism is now pretty much a synonym for misandry, when that was never, ever what feminism was about.

I 100% consider myself a feminist, but I've seen it written on this very forum that "all men" should run a mile from any woman who identifies as a feminist, because, apparently, we're all miserable, man-hating bitches who just want to subjugate and emasculate the entire male population of the world.

Third/fourth wave feminism is not my feminism. I fcuking love men. And I think the genders are far more alike than we are different. But extremely vocal commentators on both sides of the divide refute this. And there is a divide, and it's one that I don't think was so prevalent even ten years ago. There's a poster in TGC who seems to come at every single topic, even if it's unrelated to gender issues, from a viewpoint that there's some kind of outright gender war going on and that all women are in on it. But all I can say is that I, as a self-identified feminist, think 90% of what's spouted by new-wave feminism, most of which seems to be coming out of the US, is utter dross.

I had a debate online with an American lady on my Facebook after she shared a poster with the infamous "1 in 5" and "77 cents for every dollar" statistics on it. I questions them and she just blindly defended them. A quick google would show that most of these stats may not be true.
According to Wikipedia, there are 21 million people in higher eductation in the US. Assuming that 10.5 are women then this would equate to somewhere between 2 - 2.5 million women being raped every year and this is just in higher education. Personally, I find this hard to believe.
Bottom line, from perusing the Ladies Lounge and this forum, I think that most chaps would agree that women do get a raw deal in some areas like politics and IT whereas most women are smart enough to realise that most guys aren't perverts and that quotas aren't the answer to anything.
The problem stems from being assaulted with the same stats and viewpoints repeatedly. TV portrays men as gullible idiots while the news is worse again. I used to work in repairs for a medical device firm and developed the opinion that most of our products were poor quality based on the fact that I spent my day fixing things. I had to be reminded that only a small fraction of our output was ever sent back and that most of the faults were due to extreme old age or normal wear & tear.

Carlos Orange

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think that most chaps would agree that women do get a raw deal in some areas like politics and IT

What raw deal do women get in IT? Being a minority of IT workers does not in itself constitute a 'raw deal'.

ancapailldorcha

psinno wrote: »

What raw deal do women get in IT? Being a minority of IT workers does not in itself constitute a 'raw deal'.

I know a fair few people in IT, all men and they've told me that misogyny is a problem in both the IT and gaming sectors.

Carlos Orange

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I know a fair few people in IT, all men and they've told me that misogyny is a problem in both the IT and gaming sectors.

Were they talking about the companies they worked for?

ancapailldorcha

psinno wrote: »

Were they talking about the companies they worked for?

A few were in academia, but yes.

cookiexx

diveout wrote: »

What I don't appreciate about feminism, is a small group of women taking it upon themselves to speak for me.

Shut up.

I agree with this actually.

I don't identify with this '1 in 5 women have been raped' figure. Or the idea that as a woman I should relate to sexual assault or the high risk of rape every time I leave the house. Perhaps the statistics don't lie, but I don't live my life in fear of being attacked or walking down the street on my own.

Most of the attention I get from men is positive. I like the wolf whistles, the odd shout or the prolonged glances of appreciation. They don't make me feel like a victim, they make me feel flattered, attractive. Sometimes is goes from complimentary to smutty and inappropriate - I'm an adult so I assert my boundaries and walk away.

I've had a lively, fulfilling career not because of or in spite of my gender - because I worked hard and showed initiative and enthusiasm. I've had male and female managers, all of whom just treated me like 'cookiexx', not with any discriminatory or preferential treatment.

There are some individuals who WILL see the world through a sexism prism, degrade me or dismiss me because I am a woman or cast judgement - to be honest there are as many as women as men who will do this.

But I've never felt like a victim, or like my gender has a negative impact on my quality of life or people's perceptions of me. I can't understand this brand of feminism that claims I should be feeling this way, or I'm 'just not looking hard enough'.

py2006

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I know a fair few people in IT, all men and they've told me that misogyny is a problem in both the IT and gaming sectors.

Misogyny or sexism? Or do you equate both?

I really hate the word misogyny as, to me anyway, it must be a very small minority that actually HATE women. Its a word used flippantly these days by hardcore/pseudo feminists.

ancapailldorcha

py2006 wrote: »

Misogyny or sexism? Or do you equate both?

I really hate the word misogyny as, to me anyway, it must be a very small minority that actually HATE women. Its a word used flippantly these days by hardcore/pseudo feminists.

Hmmm... Perhaps sexism might have been a bit more appropriate.

I completely agree with the bulk of your post. What really ticks me off is that when the likes of the Guardian reports on genuine instances of sexism or misogyny, my initial reaction is to chalk it up as typical whinging which is unacceptable but there's no way to differentiate between actual statistics and "Guardian fluff".

py2006

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What really ticks me off is that when the likes of the Guardian reports on genuine instances of sexism or misogyny, my initial reaction is to chalk it up as typical whinging which is unacceptable but there's no way to differentiate between actual statistics and "Guardian fluff".

I think the media in general has gone really downhill in the last few years. It seems to be an unmoderated platform for deranged feminists with articles ridiculing men or articles looking for sexism or misogyny were it doesn't exist. The Irish Times (surprisingly enough) has been guilty of this too of late. There seems to be reluctance from certain media outlets to moderate or reject these articles for fear of being branded sexist/misogynist or not giving enough outlets to women. At least thats the way I see it.

ancapailldorcha

py2006 wrote: »

I think the media in general has gone really downhill in the last few years. It seems to be an unmoderated platform for deranged feminists with articles ridiculing men or articles looking for sexism or misogyny were it doesn't exist. The Irish Times (surprisingly enough) has been guilty of this too of late. There seems to be reluctance from certain media outlets to moderate or reject these articles for fear of being branded sexist/misogynist or not giving enough outlets to women. At least thats the way I see it.

I don't fully agree but your post has merit. Rather than a concerted agenda, I think it's more likely that the modern white man is the only acceptable target for ridicule and derision. Remember the feminist outcry at the Rotherham incident? I don't. I remember thinking that the Irish Times was a decent paper, relatively speaking at least but now they've given bigots like Una Mullaly a platform, they can do without my traffic and custom.

py2006

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't fully agree but your post has merit. Rather than a concerted agenda, I think it's more likely that the modern white man is the only acceptable target for ridicule and derision. Remember the feminist outcry at the Rotherham incident? I don't. I remember thinking that the Irish Times was a decent paper, relatively speaking at least but now they've given bigots like Una Mullaly a platform, they can do without my traffic and custom.

Una Mullallys agenda articles aside, her grasp of the English language and her ability to put words down is a country mile away from the standard that you would expect from the Irish Times. At times I expect her to go into text speak! I am really, really surprised she is allowed write for them. It is as if an editor doesn't read her articles for language/structure let alone for ludicrous generalisations and sexism.

Carlos Orange

py2006 wrote: »

Una Mullallys agenda articles aside, her grasp of the English language and her ability to put words down is a country mile away from the standard that you would expect from the Irish Times. At times I expect her to go into text speak! I am really, really surprised she is allowed write for them. It is as if an editor doesn't read her articles for language/structure let alone for ludicrous generalisations and sexism.

I'm sure her editor is reading the hit counter.

py2006

psinno wrote: »

I'm sure her editor is reading the hit counter.

May be so, she has generated a bit of talk with her controversy. However, I think the Times have a reputation to uphold. I am sure they do not wish their articles to be on a par with the Daily Mail but I could be wrong.

Interestingly enough she appeared on a radio show and her response to the negative feedback to her deluded articles was something along the lines of men not wanting women to have a voice. :rolleyes:

ancapailldorcha

py2006 wrote: »

May be so, she has generated a bit of talk with her controversy. However, I think the Times have a reputation to uphold. I am sure they do not wish their articles to be on a par with the Daily Mail but I could be wrong.

Interestingly enough she appeared on a radio show and her response to the negative feedback to her deluded articles was something along the lines of men not wanting women to have a voice. :rolleyes:

I doubt they care once they're getting more sales. I suppose have a "feminist columnist" makes them look modern.