All Hallows Closing Down

SebBerkovich

All Hallows College is shutting down - due to a combination of financial reasons and lack of student enrollment.

So this probably isn't going to be much of a shock to anyone here - but i'm wondering if the RCC will see this and perhaps consider that they may have lost their relevance (especially with the youth) :eek:

Cabaal

Gota agree with first comment,

80 staff for 450 students?!?!??!?!?

seriously wtf?

Just where will we go to do courses like MA in ecology and religion now?

The MA in Ecology & Religion was a unique qualification.

On graduation you’d be expert on the entire 6000 year history of the world and how all flora and fauna rely on each other in the same way today as when they were cramped up together in Noah’s Ark, unable to eat anything but fish for the duration of the flood for fear of destroying another of their co-passenger species if they fancied some meat or veg.

SebBerkovich

I wonder if they had other science subjects that they tagged " & Religion" onto the end of.

Computer Applications & Religion
Learn to code new programs and debug them with the power of prayer. For each compiler error you're required to say two Hail Mary's.

Cabaal

Undergrad courses:

Courses

AH001 BA (Hons) Philosophy and Theology

AH002 BA (Hons) Psychology and Theology

AH003 BA (Hons) English literature and Theology

AH004 BA (Hons) Philosophy and English Literature

AH005 BA (Hons) Psychology and English Literature

AH006 BA (Hons) Psychology and Philosophy

Postgrad courses:

Master of Arts in Management Community & Voluntary Services

Master of Arts in Christian Spirituality

Master of Arts in Leadership and Pastoral Care

Master of Arts in Social Justice and Public Policy

Master of Arts in Supervisory Practice

Master of Arts in Ecology and Religion

Master of Arts in Research

Oh and look what they are doing on the 24th May!!

one-day conference on the persons, theologies and legacies of both John XXIII and John Paul II and their relevancy for today.

Bet that conference doesn't include the same legacy's most of us will see John Paul as leaving

Mr. CooL ICE

SebBerkovich wrote: »

I wonder if they had other science subjects that they tagged " & Religion" onto the end of.

Wouldn't be surprised. Assembly programming is akin to self flagellation which would be perfect for the students that attend somewhere like this

shruikan2553

SebBerkovich wrote: »

I wonder if they had other science subjects that they tagged " & Religion" onto the end of.

So what's the & religion part for?

PopePalpatine

LordChessington wrote: »

Wouldn't be surprised. Assembly programming is akin to self flagellation which would be perfect for the students that attend somewhere like this

As a 2nd year CS student I can confirm this.

lazygal

Is this a case of the Lord not providing?

robindch

Master of Arts in Ecology and Religion

Two kinds of manure.

Turtwig

Am I the only one who thought this thread was about Halloween?

Hotblack Desiato

Or as my grandad used to say, hallow'eve

Anyway. One pointless waste of space and purveyor of grade A bullsh*t closed down, many more to follow in time.

recedite

This is the college that tried to get a bit of extra time by flogging the Jackie Kennedy letters, until it was pointed out to them that they weren't the owners.

The college claimed it had been “constrained” in its attempt to grow enrolment figures by a cap on the numbers of undergraduates eligible for the free fees scheme.
However, this was challenged by Department of Education figures which showed the college failed to reach this cap in the last five years.

Translation; They couldn't even give away the college courses.

pauldla

I hope the grounds are turned into a Science and Engineering college, running language courses during the summer.

The course list Cabaal posted above reminded me of Monty Pythons 'spam' sketch, for some reason.

Cabaal

Stolen or moved?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/grand-theft-of-valuable-items-at-all-hallows-college-in-dublin-1.1808786

Fr Patrick McDevitt, president of the College, told The Irish Times the gardaí were called in some weeks ago when it was discovered “a sizeable number” of items were missing. He said their value was estimated “in the thousands”.

lazygal

Resting somewhere else?

recedite

If the college was founded only 172 years ago, where did they get all the centuries old artifacts?

robindch

Cabaal wrote: »

Stolen or moved?

Strange that nobody's talking about a miracle:

Irish Times wrote:

However, valuer and expert in rare books Owen Felix O’Neill claimed last night the loss to the college amounted to “quite a few million.”

Is it only a miracle if it's "good"?

Dades

It's a good miracle if they were insured.

robindch

Dades wrote: »

It's a good miracle if they were insured.

Well, let's see - god would look after his own, wouldn't he?

lazygal

Maybe they were too busy insuring against child abuse claims to bother checking out insurance for artifacts.

pauldla

The allegations above about 'moved items' are unbecoming, and only serve to besmirch the good name and reputation of the Churchohwaitnevermind.

recedite

robindch wrote: »

Well, let's see - god would look after his own, wouldn't he?

Everybody knows an Act of god voids the insurance claim, so even if He saw what was going on, He would have been powerless to act.
Damn, snookered again by Satan :mad:

Brian Shanahan

Cabaal wrote: »

Gota agree with first comment,


seriously wtf?

The MA in Ecology & Religion was a unique qualification.

On graduation you’d be expert on the entire 6000 year history of the world and how all flora and fauna rely on each other in the same way today as when they were cramped up together in Noah’s Ark, unable to eat anything but fish for the duration of the flood for fear of destroying another of their co-passenger species if they fancied some meat or veg.

Just where will we go to do courses like MA in ecology and religion now?

The actual course description is barely less bat-guano insane:

The MA Ecology & Religion programme is designed to explore how religious philosophies and traditions can make vital connections between the integrity of earth systems and the well-being of human societies. To that end it is consciously inter-disciplinary in its structure and assessment processes.
The programme aims to provide students with the knowledge, understanding and skills necessary to engage in the study of the origin and development of the current ecological crisis and to consider the role of religion and ecology in the development of a critically informed and constructive response

Seriously you're going to involve a religion one of whose basic tenets is the inculcation of the kinds of attitudes to the environment (it is all there for our use and abuse, we're free to do what we want) which are the base cause of anthropogenic global warming?

jank

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

The actual course description is barely less bat-guano insane:


Seriously you're going to involve a religion one of whose basic tenets is the inculcation of the kinds of attitudes to the environment (it is all there for our use and abuse, we're free to do what we want) which are the base cause of anthropogenic global warming?

Ah, so the RCC is to blame for global warming now as well. Anything else we can add the the list?

The ground must be worth a fortune so I wonder what will become of them and judging on the comments from the Journal many had a positive experience of the place so forgive me that I won't share in the 'glee' that a place of learning is closing and teachers are losing their jobs.

robindch

jank wrote: »

[...] a place of learning is closing [...]

Given the course content, it's a bit of a stretch to call it "a place of learning".

recedite

jank wrote: »

Ah, so the RCC is to blame for global warming now as well. Anything else we can add the the list?

No, he didn't quite say that. But if you actually read the bible, you'll find it says that man has been given "dominion" over the earth and all its creatures.
To have dominion is to rule over and dominate, to use and abuse at will.
It is quite a different attitude to eastern religions, which tend to see mankind as only a part of nature.

jank

robindch wrote: »

Given the course content, it's a bit of a stretch to call it "a place of learning".

The place had its awards accredited by DCU. Are you saying Dublin City University does not have a certain standard and that DCU is not a place of learning?

jank

recedite wrote: »

.
It is quite a different attitude to eastern religions, which tend to see mankind as only a part of nature.

Clearly that is working wonders as China is the world biggest polluters and its treatment of animals is anything but 'nurturing'.

robindch

jank wrote: »

The place had its awards accredited by DCU. Are you saying Dublin City University does not have a certain standard and that DCU is not a place of learning?

I'm saying that anything that teaches religion as fact should consider whether it's abusing the phrase "place of learning".

I Heart Internet

robindch wrote: »

I'm saying that anything that teaches religion as fact should consider whether it's abusing the phrase "place of learning".

Such a closed-mind view of learning about the world is sad.

The course in question (according to the website) looks at how religious philosophies and traditions affect ecology and people's attitude towards ecological matters.

Are you suggesting this is a worthless endevour? Are you suggesting that people's religious views and practice have no bearing on how they threat the planet and its resources? I'd say it's quite important. You said it yourself - eastern religions have (or had) a more enlightened view of nature and our roll in it (in theory at least) than western ones.

SebBerkovich

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Such a closed-mind view of learning about the world is sad.

The course in question (according to the website) looks at how religious philosophies and traditions affect ecology and people's attitude towards ecological matters.

Are you suggesting this is a worthless endevour? Are you suggesting that people's religious views and practice have no bearing on how they threat the planet and its resources? I'd say it's quite important. You said it yourself - eastern religions have (or had) a more enlightened view of nature and our roll in it (in theory at least) than western ones.

I would agree that it could be interesting to study ecological effects of religion (e.g. like how Hindu vegetarianism have affected India's ecosystem) but i don't think that you're going to experience a very analytical view of the subject from a college that when it comes down to it believes the answer to most questions is "Because God - thats why."

I Heart Internet

SebBerkovich wrote: »

I would agree that it could be interesting to study ecological effects of religion (e.g. like how Hindu vegetarianism have affected India's ecosystem) but i don't think that you're going to experience a very analytical view of the subject from a college that when it comes down to it believes the answer to most questions is "Because God - thats why."

I don't believe the college would encourage such thinking. I certainly don't believe DCU would award qualifications based on it. Do you?

SebBerkovich

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I don't believe the college would encourage such thinking. I certainly don't believe DCU would award qualifications based on it. Do you?

It describes itself as "A Catholic and Vincentian higher education institution". It exactly the kind of place that would encourage that kind of thinking.

jank

SebBerkovich wrote: »

but i don't think that you're going to experience a very analytical view of the subject from a college that when it comes down to it believes the answer to most questions is "Because God - thats why."

Yes, all higher learning qualifications to do with theology and religious philosophy can be summed up with the "Because God". I suppose I don't have to read anything by Thomas Aquinas cause you have given me a great summary on all his works. Thanks.

I Heart Internet

SebBerkovich wrote: »

It describes itself as "A Catholic and Vincentian higher education institution". It exactly the kind of place that would encourage that kind of thinking.

It was a liberal arts college along the lines of many in the US.

Again, do you think DCU would award qualifications to people on the basis you're suggesting??

SebBerkovich

I've always thought that to study Theology in an academic sense would be better done with secular perspective. Theologians hold absolutes about their subjects that could stifle a more open discussion about Theology.
I don't believe that it's not worth studying, i just don't see the point in studying it within the confines of catholic dogma

If i was in charge of what DCU considered worthy of a certified degree - i'd do the world a favour remove Marketing forever. Which goes to show that for some people what i may consider to be a burden on humanity - the good people of DCU have found to be a life skill. So it goes.

I Heart Internet

SebBerkovich wrote: »

I've always thought that to study Theology in an academic sense would be better done with secular perspective. Theologians hold absolutes about their subjects that could stifle a more open discussion about Theology.
I don't believe that it's not worth studying, i just don't see the point in studying it within the confines of catholic dogma.

There are plenty of atheist theologians. And most theologians I've met are far from absolutists.

SebBerkovich wrote: »

If i was in charge of what DCU considered worthy of a certified degree - i'd do the world a favour remove Marketing forever. Which goes to show that for some people what i may consider to be a burden on humanity - the good people of DCU have found to be a life skill. So it goes.

But you don't doubt the credibility of DCU and the credibility, even if they are not to your liking, of the course they acredit?

jank

SebBerkovich wrote: »

I don't believe that it's not worth studying, i just don't see the point in studying it within the confines of catholic dogma

Have you ever studied it?

SebBerkovich

I've been discussing the ethos of an institution - not the character of the staff. It's irrelevant what a given faculty member feels, when the absolutism comes from the dogma prescribed by the sponsor of the college.

Your argument that DCU's name being attached to the course gives it credibility is interesting, do you know what standards an individual course needs to attain?

I Heart Internet

SebBerkovich wrote: »

I've been discussing the ethos of an institution - not the character of the staff. It's irrelevant what a given faculty member feels, when the absolutism comes from the dogma prescribed by the sponsor of the college.

Your argument that DCU's name being attached to the course gives it credibility is interesting, do you know what standards an individual course needs to attain?

I am aware of a particular "outside" course, in another part of the country with accreditation from an Irish University (NUI). These institutions are INCREDIBLY careful of their brand and the negotiations to get accreditation were very long and thorough. They (like DCU I imagine) will not stand over any course that is not delivered as they, themselves, would deliver it - in terms of content and quality.

When people graduate from these (All Hallows) courses, their parchment would have two logos on it. One is All Hallows and one is DCU's.

SebBerkovich

The course is being conducted in an institution that specifies it's Catholicism as one of it's fundamental values. You haven't given me any reason to believe that DCU's accreditation would alter that ethos in any way other than broadly stating through anecdotal evidence that they are "very thorough".

DCU is accrediting a Catholic institute to produce a catholic indoctrination of ecology (among others) and my argument that that institution cannot possibly explore fully that subject while being constrained by uncriticizable dogma.

I Heart Internet

SebBerkovich wrote: »

The course is being conducted in an institution that specifies it's Catholicism as one of it's fundamental values. You haven't given me any reason to believe that DCU's accreditation would alter that ethos in any way other than broadly stating through anecdotal evidence that they are "very thorough".

DCU is accrediting a Catholic institute to produce a catholic indoctrination of ecology (among others) and my argument that that institution cannot possibly explore fully that subject while being constrained by uncriticizable dogma.

Fine. If you can't/won't accept a DCU accreditied degree/diploma then perhaps DCU, or an associated college, isn't the place for you. I (or DCU) cannot counter your immovable anti-catolic bias.

SebBerkovich

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Fine. If you can't/won't accept a DCU accreditied degree/diploma then perhaps DCU, or an associated college, isn't the place for you. I (or DCU) cannot counter your immovable anti-catolic bias.

I don't think it's bias to assume a catholic institution cannot teach science properly. Catholicism has been fighting against science since before the fall of the Roman empire.

To my mind they teach their own version of the truth, coloured by their dogma and that isn't particularly useful to society.

DCU's accreditation may very well have understood this and accepted it. There's not evidence that they didn't.

So to get back to your original question - this institution's primary focus of catholicism is simply going to infect the subject with un-needed superstition - where none is needed.

robindch

I Heart Internet wrote: »

robindch wrote: »

I'm saying that anything that teaches religion as fact should consider whether it's abusing the phrase "place of learning".

Such a closed-mind view of learning about the world is sad.

I agree. Learning should be about opening the mind by honest investigation, and not constrained by primitive, unenlightened dogma.

Hence my criticism of the daft claim that it's "place of learning" when it is most likely, in practice, to be a "place of the justification of the sublimely ridiculous".

petronius

I am amazed at the nasty and intolerant remarks regarding all hallows on this forum
i disagree with the sale of personal letters which I am glad did not occur
i think it would have been tasteless

however anyone who i know who studied a course there, or attended a conference had only positive experience
One I would point out was the course provided for SR Technics workers who lost their jobs when it closed down, and it was a great help in this case for a middle aged man re-entering education and ultimately finding a new job.
An friend of mine attended an anglican conference there and was impressed

I think all hallows in recent years has provided volunteers who providing social services a place and training to help people and its planned winding down is a major loss to this sector.

Hotblack Desiato

Bock the Robber's take on it

Imagine, in 1842, setting up a seminary to train priests for foreign missions, while the majority of the Irish peasantry lived in a state of misery, with the Famine looming. In the very same way that Cardinal Paul Cullen arrived in great pomp and circumstance ten years later, while people starved at the side of the road, All Hallows represents the physical manifestation of a church that cared nothing for compassion and everything for power.

Hotblack Desiato

I Heart Internet wrote: »

They (like DCU I imagine) will not stand over any course that is not delivered as they, themselves, would deliver it - in terms of content and quality.

Really - DCU would deliver courses which portray catholicism (or any other religion) as fact?

Ideally a secular institution would refuse point blank to accredit this sort of nonsense, despite it being profitable and for little effort, basically money for nothing.

Anyway if catholics regard this place as so wonderful they should ask their church to bankroll it from its ample funds.

smokingman

We're those millions worth of old books and manuscripts that magically disappeared found yet or were they maybe "protected" like religious orders assets after the child abuse scandals?

I Heart Internet

ninja900 wrote: »

Really - DCU would deliver courses which portray catholicism (or any other religion) as fact?

No. That's kinda my point.

But it doesn't matter, nor does the loss of any practical benefits of the place matter, as glimpsed in Petronius' post. All that matters to A&A is that it is seen as a loss for the church. No potential down side. Everything is good as long as it can be portrayed as a loss for the church. That's all that matters.

shruikan2553

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No. That's kinda my point.

But it doesn't matter, nor does the loss of any practical benefits of the place matter, as glimpsed in Petronius' post. All that matters to A&A is that it is seen as a loss for the church. No potential down side. Everything is good as long as it can be portrayed as a loss for the church. That's all that matters.

I dont really see how the degrees they offer are such a loss. Cant you study similar elsewhere? By offering so little course which were just a mix of 3 subjects they werent exactly making themselves viable.

recedite

jank wrote: »

Clearly that is working wonders as China is the world biggest polluters

Its increasing, but their per capita consumption of energy, and production of CO2, is still well below ours. If the whole world matched the Chinese for low energy consumption, there would be no need to worry about global warming.

petronius wrote: »

... the course provided for SR Technics workers who lost their jobs when it closed down....

Airplane maintenance hardly seems like their area of expertise, so I'm inclined to think they must have had a lot of empty classrooms, and when they saw a whole load of locals being laid off, maybe they decided to put on a course in "positive thinking" or some such, which would boost their student numbers.
Is that what the course was about?