Sinn Féin candidate admits British system better than Irish one

MakeEmLaugh

I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but Sinn Féin's Matt Carthy, running in the Midlands/North West constituency, made a pretty startling statement on Sunday's Prime Time.

When the presenter questioned his party's criticism of the water charge in the Republic, given that Sinn Féin supports a similar tax in Northern Ireland, Carthy said the following:

"In terms of rates in the North, and as we know, it's a British system, but in the North, look what you get for your €900: You get your water. It covers your property tax. It covers your refuse collection. It covers your schoolbooks for your children from first class right through until you've done the equivalent of the Leaving Cert. It covers your healthcare costs. Now I'm a father of four children. If I was able to get all those things covered by €900 a year in this state, I'd be a lot happier."

Even the presenter smirked at this, and said "Sounds great to be under British rule then, doesn't it?"

You can see the clip here at 4:00 minutes.

everdead.ie

To be fair we are always saying everyone elses system is better, we are always comparing ourselves to the US and Europe and Britain not really much of a shocker one thing to say we should be doing it this way another to say feck it I'm off because its better over there.

tayto lover

I'd pay 900 euro for all those services. No bother.

wes

If another country has a better system, there is no reason not to admit it. If the rates system is better, then maybe we should do that instead?

shruikan2553

Cant watch the video at the moment but he has a point. Im not sure what the issue is with him saying that,

Sully

People seem to be missing what the OP and host are laughing at. It's the irony of Sinn Fein operating under British rule, though against the EU/IMF in control over our finances to a lesser degree, and actually praising the system! There's lots of irony and hypocrisy in Sinn Deon's mandate purely because of them being in power up North and the massive policy differences.

Hannibal

Sully wrote: »

People seem to be missing what the OP and host are laughing at. It's the irony of Sinn Fein operating under British rule, though against the EU/IMF in control over our finances to a lesser degree, and actually praising the system! There's lots of irony and hypocrisy in Sinn Deon's mandate purely because of them being in power up North and the massive policy differences.

In the north you have to play with the hand you are dealt with strict limitations, you deal with a block grant from London and can't operate your own tax system etc.. in the north Sinn Fein aren't exactly in power, there's power sharing where all parties have different portfolios so it's not a fair comparion with the south. You could equally say that because say the either Labour/FG/FF are part of a wider party/group in Europe that they're hypocrites because they are subject to everything that group do.
It's not really Sinn Fein praising the British system, it's more a criticism of how bad and unfair our system is. There is variations on the price of rates up north so it's not all €900 across the board

Seaneh

Are people actually fool enough to think the "government" in Stormont, whether it's SF or the UDP, have any real say in the way the finances of the 6 counties is handled? They are given strict perimeters from London and have to operate within those.
They have next to no control over the taxation in the statelet.

And McCarthy is right. €900 for all of those services is a lot better than we are getting in the republic, it's the sort of system we should be aiming for.

Banjo String

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but Sinn Féin's Matt Carthy, running in the Midlands/North West constituency, made a pretty startling statement on Sunday's Prime Time.

When the presenter questioned his party's criticism of the water charge in the Republic, given that Sinn Féin supports a similar tax in Northern Ireland , Carthy said the following:

"In terms of rates in the North, and as we know, it's a British system, but in the North, look what you get for your €900: You get your water. It covers your property tax. It covers your refuse collection. It covers your schoolbooks for your children from first class right through until you've done the equivalent of the Leaving Cert. It covers your healthcare costs. Now I'm a father of four children. If I was able to get all those things covered by €900 a year in this state, I'd be a lot happier."

Even the presenter smirked at this, and said "Sounds great to be under British rule then, doesn't it?"

You can see the clip here at 4:00 minutes.

SF successfully blocked the tory Govt implementing water charges in the north. So I'm not sure what other tax you're comparing it with.

I don't get your point either. Sure aren't we always comparing ourselves to 'how other countries do things'?

SparkySpitfire

So what?

He is freely admitting and praising that the system is better there than here. Why shouldn't he? To keep up the "feck the Brit bastards!" that all Shinners supposedly spew from morning til night? Ridiculous.

It sounds like a great deal to me, how can we get it?

Banjo String

I have asked repeatedly on these forums why we could not introduce a domestic rates system similar to the north's since the introduction of the hhc.

Alias G

A standard fee for utilities like refuse and water is a woeful idea. We need to monetarily incentivise an ethical attitude towards our consumption of these services as a lot of people simply aren't bothered otherwise. I'm not suggesting that we should have to pay more than they do in other jurisdictions on average but there should be a financial spur to watch what we are consuming.

Flex

I wonder what they'd need to pay if it wasn't for the annual ~€7b subvention they receive from the GB taxpayer

creedp

Alias G wrote: »

A standard fee for utilities like refuse and water is a woeful idea. We need to monetarily incentivise an ethical attitude towards our consumption of these services as a lot of people simply aren't bothered otherwise. I'm not suggesting that we should have to pay more than they do in other jurisdictions on average but there should be a financial spur to watch what we are consuming.

Yea when the well off are relaxing in their home jacussi after a challenging day of watering their trophy gardens and refreshing their swimming pools and washing the filthy weekly grime off their luxury cars, they can reflect on how user based water charges, which are irrelevant when it comes to their substantial income, ensure that the lower paid or middle income people with substantial outgoings adopt a more ethical approach to the consumption of scarce resources. It surely keeps them in their place while the well off can still enjoy the best that nature and their wealth can offer.

Now next on the list is to lobby the politicians to introduce flat based income taxes so that I can keep even more of my high income/wealth which I richly deserve. Progressive taxes based are a terrible idea after all.

comongethappy

Flex wrote: »

I wonder what they'd need to pay if it wasn't for the annual ~€7b subvention they receive from the GB taxpayer

Its easy to be populist when sugar daddy George Osbourne is there with the annual bail out.

alastair

Banjo String wrote: »

SF successfully blocked the tory Govt implementing water charges in the north.

No they did not. The Tory government has no control of water charges in NI - that's under the auspices of the Department for Regional Development - Stormont. And SF are just one of the various parties in Stormont that have cried off introducing water charges in NI. As far as I can see, the only party in NI that will admit to the likelihood that water charges might be necessary is the SDLP, and they're not exactly shouting it from the rooftops. But the water network in NI is in a worse shape than it is here, so something is going to change in the mid term, as the current arrangement isn't sustainable.

stannis

I'd say this is more encouraging rather than funny or hypocritical. Instead of knee-jerk criticism of Britain - just because it's Britain - they point out where the Brits have done something better than us, implying that we need to change in order to improve our own system. I'm not a Shinner internet warrior, by the way. But praise where it's due.

Banjo String

Flex wrote: »

I wonder what they'd need to pay if it wasn't for the annual ~€7b subvention they receive from the GB taxpayer

I often ask myself the same question how much homeowners in sparsely populated counties such as Leitrim property tax would be without the likes of Dublin subsidizing them via much higher property tax.

Flex

Banjo String wrote: »

I often ask myself the same question to homeowners in sparsely populated counties such as Leitrim with the likes of Dublin subsidizing them via much higher property tax.

Firstly, believe me, so do I.

Id find it ridiculous for the representatives of those sparsley populated counties to go around patting themselves on the back for doing such a great job at providing services in line with areas like Dublin, while simultaneously proclaiming to voters in Dublin that the government is wasting their money, people in Leitrim pay less and get more services, etc.

That subvention (on a per capita basis for ROI) is equivalent to about €17.5B a year. The average 4 person household in NI is receving over €15k a year from GB taxpayers, hence they have an aritifically low rates charge. Constantly saying they get all of those services for €900 a year is completely dishonest

MakeEmLaugh

SparkySpitfire wrote: »

So what?

He is freely admitting and praising that the system is better there than here. Why shouldn't he? To keep up the "feck the Brit bastards!" that all Shinners supposedly spew from morning til night?

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Im not sure what the issue is with him saying that

wes wrote: »

If another country has a better system, there is no reason not to admit it.

The irony of this statement is that Gerry Adams has, for years, said that citizens of Northern Ireland would have a better standard of living in a united Ireland.

Yet here we have a candidate running for an election at this very moment stating the exact opposite.

This footage would make absolutely superb propaganda for unionist parties like the DUP and UUP.

Amirani

creedp wrote: »

Yea when the well off are relaxing in their home jacussi after a challenging day of watering their trophy gardens and refreshing their swimming pools and washing the filthy weekly grime off their luxury cars, they can reflect on how user based water charges, which are irrelevant when it comes to their substantial income, ensure that the lower paid or middle income people with substantial outgoings adopt a more ethical approach to the consumption of scarce resources.

How would you feel about water charges being applied on an exponential scale rather than a linear one?

The_Captain

stannis wrote: »

I'd say this is more encouraging rather than funny or hypocritical. Instead of knee-jerk criticism of Britain - just because it's Britain - they point out where the Brits have done something better than us, implying that we need to change in order to improve our own system. I'm not a Shinner internet warrior, by the way. But praise where it's due.

I have to agree with you, it's small minded to automatically assume the British way is worse than the screw the poor and people from Dublin system that Fine Gael love implementing.

For what's it's worth, I think you'd be a much better king than your brother

stannis

The_Captain wrote: »

For what's it's worth, I think you'd be a much better king than your brother

Funnily enough I am of the same opinion

Jolly Red Giant

Banjo String wrote: »

SF successfully blocked the tory Govt implementing water charges in the north.

Shinners are spoofing again - Sinn Fein did not block water charges in the North. Sinn Fein and the DUP originally planned introducing water charges in the North and backed off when faced with the potential of a massive boycott of the water charges in Catholic and Protestant working class communities. The charges haven't been blocked - they have been postponed through legislation and are due to be implemented in 2016 (and SF will be hoping that the GE occurs in the South before then).

In the meantime Sinn Fein ministers have engaged in the wholesale privatisation of schools, water infrastructure, sea ports and transport - and been the most vocal cheerleaders for privatisation in the process.

jank

Seaneh wrote: »

And McCarthy is right. €900 for all of those services is a lot better than we are getting in the republic, it's the sort of system we should be aiming for.

And who will foot the bill? The Germans?

Lastlight.

Flex wrote: »

I wonder what they'd need to pay if it wasn't for the annual ~€7b subvention they receive from the GB taxpayer

So why want to unite to a system which is worse? Sinn Fein doing a fantastic job in promoting the Union going by this video. Well done to the Sinn Fein man.

maccored

In reality what he was saying was its so bad here that even the brits are doing a better job. And he'd be right.

Lastlight. wrote: »

So why want to unite to a system which is worse? Sinn Fein doing a fantastic job in promoting the Union going by this video. Well done to the Sinn Fein man.

Lastlight.

maccored wrote: »

In reality what he was saying was its so bad here that even the brits are doing a better job. And he'd be right.

Yes, so no need to join up to that system. So I agree with him.

shruikan2553

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

The irony of this statement is that Gerry Adams has, for years, said that citizens of Northern Ireland would have a better standard of living in a united Ireland.

Yet here we have a candidate running for an election at this very moment stating the exact opposite.

This footage would make absolutely superb propaganda for unionist parties like the DUP and UUP.

Fair enough, I just find it hard to argue with the fact that they are better off where they are.

Alias G

creedp wrote: »

Yea when the well off are relaxing in their home jacussi after a challenging day of watering their trophy gardens and refreshing their swimming pools and washing the filthy weekly grime off their luxury cars, they can reflect on how user based water charges, which are irrelevant when it comes to their substantial income, ensure that the lower paid or middle income people with substantial outgoings adopt a more ethical approach to the consumption of scarce resources. It surely keeps them in their place while the well off can still enjoy the best that nature and their wealth can offer.

Now next on the list is to lobby the politicians to introduce flat based income taxes so that I can keep even more of my high income/wealth which I richly deserve. Progressive taxes based are a terrible idea after all.

What a load of tosh. I specifically stated that taxes on such utilities should not increase on average. Merely that we ought to reward sensible usage. These services aren't free and in many cases are dwindling. Whats your proposal...eat the rich I suppose. The working public are gonna pick up the tab no matter what tax system we implement. That's you and me and that's life. And please show me where I said anything against progressive taxing.

Hannibal

Flex wrote: »

I wonder what they'd need to pay if it wasn't for the annual ~€7b subvention they receive from the GB taxpayer

I wonder what Westminster actually raises in tax from the north? and this includes companys operating there and paying taxes in London without disclosing anything about the north. It is estimated at around the 8bn mark, Sinn Fein wants moneys raised in the north to stay in the north and let it become financially independent from Westminster

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

The irony of this statement is that Gerry Adams has, for years, said that citizens of Northern Ireland would have a better standard of living in a united Ireland.

Yet here we have a candidate running for an election at this very moment stating the exact opposite.

This footage would make absolutely superb propaganda for unionist parties like the DUP and UUP.

Matt Carthy didn't say they had a better standard of living in the north, he said they've a much better system for paying for domestic services. There's a big big difference between the two.

comongethappy

Hannibal wrote: »

I wonder what Westminster actually raises in tax from the north? and this includes companys operating there and paying taxes in London without disclosing anything about the north. It is estimated at around the 8bn mark, Sinn Fein wants moneys raised in the north to stay in the north and let it become financially independent from Westminster

I read somewhere that in 2013 the average tax take per NI resident was £5700 x 1.8million people, close to £10 billion per year.

However as of 2011 the subvention to make up the shortfall was just over £5billion annually.

So akin to the ROI receiving a gift of about €20 billion every single year..... A gift we wouldn't ever have to pay back.

As I said before, its the easiest thing in the world for the NI executive to look generous when daddy in 11 Downing street picks up the tab.

alastair

Hannibal wrote: »

I wonder what Westminster actually raises in tax from the north? and this includes companys operating there and paying taxes in London without disclosing anything about the north. It is estimated at around the 8bn mark, Sinn Fein wants moneys raised in the north to stay in the north and let it become financially independent from Westminster

The annual deficit in NI is currently running a bit below €12 billion per annum - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-26845607. No amount of wishful thinking about keeping NI operating companies taxes inside NI is going to disguise the reality that the place is subsidised. Even those advocating a regional reduction in corporation tax for NI concede it would reduce their tax income for about ten years, before any benefits would accrue.

Frank Lee Midere

So clearly the UK/NI property/ council tax in fact doesn't pay for what the Sinn Fein rep says it does. It needs income tax subventions. And last time I paid property tax in the UK I also paid water charges. As for what I got back for the £1.2k p/a. Refuse collection.

Far away hills.

Flex

Hannibal wrote: »

I wonder what Westminster actually raises in tax from the north? and this includes companys operating there and paying taxes in London without disclosing anything about the north. It is estimated at around the 8bn mark, Sinn Fein wants moneys raised in the north to stay in the north and let it become financially independent from Westminster

I cant see how that would result in anything but a huge drop in the standard of living in NI. Last I read (and correct me if Im wrong), 31% of the workforce were in the public sector (compared to about 19% average for the whole UK and about 17% for ROI), 75% of their GDP was dependent on state spending, their GDP is about €37B (to put the incredible scale of that subvention they receive each year in perspective).

The link in alastairs post shows a €12B annual deficit in a province with a GDP of €37B....

Lastlight. wrote: »

So why want to unite to a system which is worse? Sinn Fein doing a fantastic job in promoting the Union going by this video. Well done to the Sinn Fein man.

I wasnt really talking about the pros and cons of a united Ireland or anything like that in fairness.

I was trying to point out the deviousness of Sinn Fein in trying to claim they get great value for money/are very shrewd/economically competent by saying they get those things for NI at such a low cost, when in fact they only can because a third party is picking up the tab.

carpejugulum

Flex wrote: »

I wonder what they'd need to pay if it wasn't for the annual ~€7b subvention they receive from the GB taxpayer

And yet they promised to deliver all this here for €0.

Lastlight.

Flex wrote: »

I cant see how that would result in anything but a huge drop in the standard of living in NI. Last I read (and correct me if Im wrong), 31% of the workforce were in the public sector (compared to about 19% average for the whole UK and about 17% for ROI), 75% of their GDP was dependent on state spending, their GDP is about €37B (to put the incredible scale of that subvention they receive each year in perspective).

The link in alastairs post shows a €12B annual deficit in a province with a GDP of €37B....




I wasnt really talking about the pros and cons of a united Ireland or anything like that in fairness.

I was trying to point out the deviousness of Sinn Fein in trying to claim they get great value for money/are very shrewd/economically competent by saying they get those things for NI at such a low cost, when in fact they only can because a third party is picking up the tab.

Sinn Fein being deviousness? I never would have thought that was possible. Of course they are, that is what they do.

goose2005

comongethappy wrote: »

Its easy to be populist when sugar daddy George Osbourne is there with the annual bail out.

In fairness, partition and occupation wrecked the NI economy

comongethappy

goose2005 wrote: »

In fairness, partition and occupation wrecked the NI economy

Post 1922 RoI was no fun either.
I dare say NI prospered better than ROI for decades post independence.

Who ever is to blame now, the fact remains that the NI executive in no way deliver a better service than our government because the rules are totally different.

alastair

goose2005 wrote: »

In fairness, partition and occupation wrecked the NI economy

No they didn't. NI's economy was initially boosted by it's heavy industry, and then, even when they went into decline in the 30's, NI still outpaced the (dire) economic growth of the Free State. They had another boost to their economy during WWII, and then, in the post-war years continued to outpace the Republic. The 70's was probably the only stage where, on the back of the troubles, the economic growth of the south performed better than the north, and then only for a short time. In fact the only point where you could say with confidence that the economy gap favoured the Republic was during the celtic tiger years. NI economic growth has outpaced the Republic's again, since 2007. That both are ****e is another matter - it's not because of partition, or 'occupation'.

Lastlight.

alastair wrote: »

No they didn't. NI's economy was initially boosted by it's heavy industry, and then, even when they went into decline in the 30's, NI still outpaced the (dire) economic growth of the Free State. They had another boost to their economy during WWII, and then, in the post-war years continued to outpace the Republic. The 70's was probably the only stage where, on the back of the troubles, the economic growth of the south performed better than the north, and then only for a short time. In fact the only point where you could say with confidence that the economy gap favoured the Republic was during the celtic tiger years. NI economic growth has outpaced the Republic's again, since 2007. That both are ****e is another matter - it's not because of partition, or 'occupation'.

A lot of people try to post such myths about the Northern Ireland economy, as you say it is a lot of nonsense.

NIMAN

Surely this guy has this wrong.

The 'rates' in NI don't pay for your healthcare or your free education, that comes out of general taxation does it not?

As for no water charges, they may enjoy it while they can, cos they will have them some day.
I'm glad that I ain't paying the rates bills some of my family and friends are paying in NI.

awec

This post has been deleted.

NIMAN

One of the great myths about the NHS, that its free.

Terrontress

NIMAN wrote: »

One of the great myths about the NHS, that its free.

Free at point of use though. So the woman who finds a lump on her breast or the man getting headaches doesn't have to worry about where €60 comes from to get it checked out.

Or can't use it as an excuse.

Banjo String

NIMAN wrote: »

Surely this guy has this wrong.

The 'rates' in NI don't pay for your healthcare or your free education, that comes out of general taxation does it not?

As for no water charges, they may enjoy it while they can, cos they will have them some day.
I'm glad that I ain't paying the rates bills some of my family and friends are paying in NI.

I looked at Belfast City councils website for these answers.

In Northern Ireland, rates are a property tax based on the capital, or market value of homes.

Rates of non-domestic properties, such as businesses and offices, are based on the rental value of your property.

The income from this tax contributes towards the cost of providing local government services, such as leisure services and bin collections, and central government services, such as education and health. 

Find out about rates in 2014-2015Calculate your rates billYour rates bill

Your rates bill is made up of two parts:

District rateThe district rate is fixed annually by individual councils and is used to pay for services such as bin collections, recycling and waste disposal, leisure services, street cleaning and parks.

Regional rateThe regional rate is set by central government and is used to pay for services such as roads, education and health . 

http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/council/rates/whatarerates.aspx

Surely the council's website isn't lying?

K-9

Banjo String wrote: »

I looked at Belfast City councils website for these answers.



http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/council/rates/whatarerates.aspx

Surely the council's website isn't lying?

Jaysus, they really make it stretch, don't they?

It's a small contribution in the overall scheme of things. NIC goes towards health and SW, somebody on £400 a week would pay £34 a week NIC. What people often forget is that the Employer pays about the same again on top of that, it takes a lot of money to fund health and SW, so I can't imagine the health part adds up to that much in the scheme of things.

awec

This post has been deleted.

NIMAN

Terrontress wrote: »

Free at point of use though. So the woman who finds a lump on her breast or the man getting headaches doesn't have to worry about where €60 comes from to get it checked out.

Or can't use it as an excuse.

OK it is 'free' at point of use, but no guarantee that it will sort you out.

From experience, my own father was checked out for 'free', found out that he needed a triple bypass heart op, and died 18 months later while still on the waiting list.