Begrudgery against people rising out of their social class?

steddyeddy

I'm in UCD and as many will know times are getting tougher for everyone out there. Some students from disadvantaged families (disadvantaged doesn't mean the dole!) or students with no families are finding it extremely hard to cope. Some students are sleeping in their cars (even with jobs and the grant rent in Dublin is insane). Now these people were born into exceptional circumstances and most people would say fair play to them for pursuing education and trying to carve out a decent life for themselves.

The problem is there is a subset of individuals in college who seem to look down on these people and their efforts. Because of financial difficulties some of these have been late with fees (approximately 100-180 short) and denied access to the library and other services. The more advantaged students (some of them by no means all) seem to look down on these students and spout phrases like "If they can't afford fees they shouldn't be in college".

Now the students who say this are not remarkable students in fact some repeat exams many times. Many students from disadvantaged backgrounds are brilliant (If you get 500 points in the leaving with no parental support and sh1tty school education you are doing something right). I.e these students have no right to judge who goes to college.

Is this sort of begrudgery against people trying to do well for themselves common or new? In America they pat you on the back for rising out of your social status. In university here it seems to be a stigma.

Notions above their station in life!!

Are there really students sleeping in their cars though. That's awful. Can the college student help funds not help?
Fair play to them being that determined to stick it out

jellyboy

Really op?

This is Ireland ,land of the begrudgers
If you haven't experienced it yet ,then your in for a shock..

Duck's hoop

steddyeddy wrote: »

In America they pat you on the back for rising out of your social status. In university here it seems to be a stigma.

In America they charge you the price of a decent house to go to university. Pat you on the back my ball sack.

steddyeddy

Duck's hoop wrote: »

In America they charge you the price of a decent house to go to university. Pat you on the back my ball sack.

A lot of disadvantaged students realise this and apply for scholarships!

hjkl

Duck's hoop wrote: »

In America they charge you the price of a decent house to go to university. Pat you on the back my ball sack.

Exactly. You won't see much poverty stricken inner city youths in the US going to University. Even if they were intelligent enough it would be impossible for them to afford.

jellyboy

frimpong wrote: »

Exactly. You won't see much poverty stricken inner city youths in the US going to University. Even if they were intelligent enough it would be impossible for them to afford.

I'm getting the lads in the conspiracy forums to pop there head on this thread in twenty mins..

Should be there cup of tea by then …

frimpong

frimpong wrote: »

Exactly. You won't see much poverty stricken inner city youths in the US going to University. Even if they were intelligent enough it would be impossible for them to afford.

I duno, I was looking at the financial assistance and scholarships for the ivy league ones, there's quite a lot of it
In the case of Yale and Harvard, if a student's family earns less than $60,000 a year, they will pay nothing for their education.
and families between 60-150k pay zero to ten %

I always thought you had to fork out loads and loads to go there but apparently not

http://money.howstuffworks.com/personal-finance/college-planning/admissions/ivy-league-admissions5.htm

http://www.admissionsconsultants.com/college/ivy_league_financial_aid.asp

steddyeddy

frimpong wrote: »

Exactly. You won't see much poverty stricken inner city youths in the US going to University. Even if they were intelligent enough it would be impossible for them to afford.

You actually do.

No Pants

steddyeddy wrote: »

Some students are sleeping in their cars (even with jobs and the grant rent in Dublin is insane).

Rent accommodation for college or run a car. I'm not surprised they can't afford both.

steddyeddy wrote: »

"If they can't afford fees they shouldn't be in college".

That's not looking down, that's stating a fact.

hjkl

No Pants wrote: »

That's not looking down, that's stating a fact.

It's not a fact it's an opinion. An opinion I disagree with. If you can't afford to pay the fees to go to college then you should get the financial assistance required to help you pay said fees.

Agricola

Never experienced this when I was in college and there were a fair few people who could be classed as disadvantaged. I was borderline myself! But then again, we all went to an IT so I suppose in many ways we were all disadvantaged compared to the elite in UCD and Trinners.

steddyeddy

No Pants wrote: »

Rent accommodation for college or run a car. I'm not surprised they can't afford both.


That's not looking down, that's stating a fact.

Yes it is looking down. Guess what? those students didn't pay fees either. Their parents did. Easy to be condescending when it's not you paying.

The Pheasant2

I'm in UCD and can't say I've ever come across a single person who begrudges disadvantaged students - in my experience the more common reaction is to say good on ya and fair play

strobe

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm in UCD and as many will know times are getting tougher for everyone out there. Some students from disadvantaged families (disadvantaged doesn't mean the dole!) or students with no families are finding it extremely hard to cope. Some students are sleeping in their cars (even with jobs and the grant rent in Dublin is insane). Now these people were born into exceptional circumstances and most people would say fair play to them for pursuing education and trying to carve out a decent life for themselves.

The problem is there is a subset of individuals in college who seem to look down on these people and their efforts. Because of financial difficulties some of these have been late with fees (approximately 100-180 short) and denied access to the library and other services. The more advantaged students (some of them by no means all) seem to look down on these students and spout phrases like "If they can't afford fees they shouldn't be in college".

Now the students who say this are not remarkable students in fact some repeat exams many times. Many students from disadvantaged backgrounds are brilliant (If you get 500 points in the leaving with no parental support and sh1tty school education you are doing something right). I.e these students have no right to judge who goes to college.

Is this sort of begrudgery against people trying to do well for themselves common or new? In America they pat you on the back for rising out of your social status. In university here it seems to be a stigma.

I'd wager the people you speak of, the ones coming out with the "If they can't afford fees they shouldn't be in college" stuff also have a lot to say about other people, people who don't drink/drunk too much/drink the wrong thing, people who sleep around/are virgins, people with long hair/shaved heads, people that listen to techno/classic rock?

Some people are just arseholey. Cripplingly insecure usually and have a bunch of hang-ups from when they were teased as children about one thing or another. Looking down on others and vocally so, is a way of desperately trying to deflect attention away from themselves and their own self perceived inadequacies with the subtlety of an ox.

Not in all cases obviously, but IME most.

Pity them. It must be awful to be like that.

OU812

Famous quote by Bono on the Larry King show:

"Ireland has a very different attitude to success than a lot of places, certainly than over here in the United States. In the United States, you look at the guy that lives in the mansion on the hill, and you think, you know, one day, if I work really hard, I could live in that mansion. In Ireland, people look up at the guy in the mansion on the hill and go, one day, I'm going to get that bastard. It's a different mind-set."

KyussBishop

In the US, students often go into debt to go through college, and because of this there is a crisis of unsustainable college debt:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/specialfeatures/2013/08/07/how-the-college-debt-is-crippling-students-parents-and-the-economy/

stimpson

Boo hoo. I couldn't afford college. Or a car. Yet I've been working in a professional role for 20 years except for about 9 months between jobs. I pull in a decent wage and I even supported my wife and two kids for a couple of years when we decided she should stay at home.

There is more to life than getting a degree from UCD.

Tin Foil Hat

OU812 wrote: »

Famous quote by Bono on the Larry King show:

"Ireland has a very different attitude to success than a lot of places, certainly than over here in the United States. In the United States, you look at the guy that lives in the mansion on the hill, and you think, you know, one day, if I work really hard, I could live in that mansion. In Ireland, people look up at the guy in the mansion on the hill and go, one day, I'm going to get that bastard. It's a different mind-set."

It might be famous, but that doesn't mean it's right. In fact, it's a load of balls.
The begrudgery of the Irish is a myth peddled by rich arseholes who would rather believe that people resent their success than dislike them for being arseholes. There's no better example of that than Bono.

steddyeddy

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

I'm in UCD and can't say I've ever come across a single person who begrudges disadvantaged students - in my experience the more common reaction is to say good on ya and fair play

Yes as I said most don't but a lot do. Look at the UCD forum for some prime examples or asking the student union their view.

KyussBishop

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

It might be famous, but that doesn't mean it's right. In fact, it's a load of balls.
The begrudgery of the Irish is a myth peddled by rich arseholes who would rather believe that people resent their success than dislike them for being arseholes. There's no better example of that than Bono.

Yea if anything, you get this kind of reverse-begrugery, where people whine about perfectly deserving people being on the dole and such.

steddyeddy

KyussBishop wrote: »

Yea if anything, you get this kind of reverse-begrugery, where people whine about perfectly deserving people being on the dole and such.

Well that happens too. Also there is begrudgery over disadvantaged students getting financial assistance.

jellyboy

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

It might be famous, but that doesn't mean it's right. In fact, it's a load of balls.
The begrudgery of the Irish is a myth peddled by rich arseholes who would rather believe that people resent their success than dislike them for being arseholes. There's no better example of that than Bono.

Ladies and nerds ,this example of proving the ops point wins the internet

Maybe if you took off your hat ,you could see a different angle..
instead of the rich arsehole looking down on the poorer classes angle


Bono hating thread >>>>>>

kupus

OU812 wrote: »

Famous quote by Bono on the Larry King show:

"Ireland has a very different attitude to success than a lot of places, certainly than over here in the United States. In the United States, you look at the guy that lives in the mansion on the hill, and you think, you know, one day, if I work really hard, I could live in that mansion. In Ireland, people look up at the guy in the mansion on the hill and go, one day, I'm going to get that bastard. It's a different mind-set."

I think this sums it up perfect.
As much as I dont like bono for his schtick, I cant help but admire the guy for what he has done with his life and the achievements him and U2 have made.
I have the same admiration for David Beckham as well, not the brighest tool in the shed, but he surrounded himself with people that were and he made a great life for himself outside of football, by creating a brand that is still selling.

Electric Sheep

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well that happens too. Also there is begrudgery over disadvantaged students getting financial assistance.

I've seen a lot more of the offspring of comfortable farmers get financial assistance than disadvantaged students.

jellyboy

Electric Sheep wrote: »

I've seen a lot more of the offspring of comfortable farmers get financial assistance than disadvantaged students.

We now have inter species begrudery..:D

shruikan2553

Ive found it tends to be the people at the same level who begrudge those who do better. Two people from small town, one gets a degree while the other get a minimum wage job and talks about how the other guy thinks he is better than him and how he doesnt need a degree.

Vito Corleone

Can't say I've noticed it to be honest.

steddyeddy

bluewolf wrote: »

Are there really students sleeping in their cars though. That's awful. Can the college student help funds not help?
Fair play to them being that determined to stick it out

Hey unfortunately it is true BW. The college funds can help out to a certain extent and in the case of family breakdown (the technical term for anything that causes you to be separate from your family) they try to provide rent money (or some of it) for accommodation. However funds are extremely limited and very much dependent on St.Vincent De Paul and the EU helping out.

steddyeddy

Vito Corleone wrote: »

Can't say I've noticed it to be honest.

Do you come from a disadvantaged background?

steddyeddy

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Ive found it tends to be the people at the same level who begrudge those who do better. Two people from small town, one gets a degree while the other get a minimum wage job and talks about how the other guy thinks he is better than him and how he doesnt need a degree.

Well I don't like the turn level but the students who are most guilty are those who are born into far better circumstances than those they're slagging.

Vito Corleone

steddyeddy wrote: »

Do you come from a disadvantaged background?

No, but I went to a secondary school that was listed as disadvantaged so I'd have a fair few friends/acquaintances that would be of that background.

I'm sure it happens but I haven't seen it myself, I don't go to UCD however. Fully agree about the whole Irish begrudgery thing in general though.

josip

OU812 wrote: »

Famous quote by Bono on the Larry King show:

"Ireland has a very different attitude to success than a lot of places, certainly than over here in the United States. In the United States, you look at the guy that lives in the mansion on the hill, and you think, you know, one day, if I work really hard, I could live in that mansion. In Ireland, people look up at the guy in the mansion on the hill and go, one day, I'm going to get that bastard. It's a different mind-set."

Bono is a hypocrite.
He says that Ireland should give more money to developing countries.
This would be funded by the Irish taxpayer.
At the same time as U2 were moving their publishing to the Netherlands for tax purposes.
Self indulgent hypocrite.

4zn76tysfajdxp

OU812 wrote: »

Famous quote by Bono on the Larry King show:

"Ireland has a very different attitude to success than a lot of places, certainly than over here in the United States. In the United States, you look at the guy that lives in the mansion on the hill, and you think, you know, one day, if I work really hard, I could live in that mansion. In Ireland, people look up at the guy in the mansion on the hill and go, one day, I'm going to get that bastard. It's a different mind-set."

Bono said that? I'm going to get that bastard.

steddyeddy

Vito Corleone wrote: »

No, but I went to a secondary school that was listed as disadvantaged so I'd have a fair few friends/acquaintances that would be of that background.

I'm sure it happens but I haven't seen it myself, I don't go to UCD however. Fully agree about the whole Irish begrudgery thing in general though.

I didn't mean to be so direct it's just a lot of people who say it doesn't exist or it's being downplayed have never been at the receiving ends of the comments. I think the students being told this stuff have a case to be made for bullying.

Richard Hillman

I find this thread hard to believe and a little convenient considering there will be a massive push by the far left to create a class war before the elections.

Poor people get grants to have their fees paid for so nobody gets refused access to the UCD library unless you are from the squeezed middle.

When I first read the thread title I thought it was going to be about people of a low social class expecting others to live and die in the same social class. Social promotion is frowned upon in a lot of disadvantaged areas.

steddyeddy

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I find this thread hard to believe and a little convenient considering there will be a massive push by the far left to create a class war before the elections.

Poor people get grants to have their fees paid for so nobody gets refused access to the UCD library unless you are from the squeezed middle.

When I first read the thread title I thought it was going to be about people of a low social class expecting others to live and die in the same social class. Social promotion is frowned upon in a lot of disadvantaged areas.

Ok great this is exactly what I was talking about. Students must be doing something wrong or lying ect. How much does a student get and how much will he/she pay out per year in college?

Richard Hillman

steddyeddy wrote: »

Ok great this is exactly what I was talking about. Students must be doing something wrong or lying ect. How much does a student get and how much will he/she pay out per year in college?

Somebody with extremely limited financial means would have their Student Contribution Charge paid for them. This would mean that they would have full access to the UCD library.

steddyeddy

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Somebody with extremely limited financial means would have their Student Contribution Charge paid for them. This would mean that they would have full access to the UCD library.

No they don't!! As I said some are sans family so have to rent in Dublin to live in UCD out of their own pocket. You don't get rent allowance on the grant. Imagine paying for Dublin rents on a student grant as well as food, clothes and travel (if bus is required).

anncoates

I'd have been what you'd call a disadvantaged student in trinity and didn't encounter much of it to be fair. That said, it was really a different country them. Ironically even the most well off students I knew didn't have their own cars back then.

Turtwig

I don't think it's necessarily to do with people rising out of their social class. I think it's just plain aul ignorance and naivety. I don't think it's even related to class differences. I've seen some students, who's parents had made extraordinary sacrifices to keep their children from enduring hardship, be totally oblivious and ignorant towards the struggle others were making -even their own parents! It's an anecdote I know but in my experience it's never been begrudgery, just plain auld fashion ignorance.

Shakespeare's Sister

stimpson wrote: »

Boo hoo. I couldn't afford college. Or a car. Yet I've been working in a professional role for 20 years except for about 9 months between jobs. I pull in a decent wage and I even supported my wife and two kids for a couple of years when we decided she should stay at home.

There is more to life than getting a degree from UCD.

But this thread IS about people who are getting a degree in UCD?

jellyboy wrote: »

Ladies and nerds ,this example of proving the ops point wins the internet

Maybe if you took off your hat ,you could see a different angle..
instead of the rich arsehole looking down on the poorer classes angle


Bono hating thread >>>>>>

Their point is that there's this obsession with saying Ireland is full of begrudgers, when it's not actually, and no more so than lots of other countries.

Richard Hillman

steddyeddy wrote: »

No they don't!! As I said some are sans family so have to rent in Dublin to live in UCD out of their own pocket. You don't get rent allowance on the grant. Imagine paying for Dublin rents on a student grant as well as food, clothes and travel (if bus is required).

Yes they do and what you have just posted has nothing to do with rebuking your point that very poor people do not get access to the UCD library and services as they get their fees paid for them.

Electric Sheep

Turtwig wrote: »

I don't think it's necessarily to do with people rising out of their social class. I think it's just plain aul ignorance and naivety. I don't think it's even related to class differences. I've seen some students, who's parents had made extraordinary sacrifices to keep their children from enduring hardship, be totally oblivious and ignorant towards the struggle others were making -even their own parents! It's an anecdote I know but in my experience it's never been begrudgery, just plain auld fashion ignorance.

This is so true. Many think that their parents can just come up with the money, and if they can't have x, y, and z it is because their parents are tight, not that they can't afford it.

steddyeddy

Turtwig wrote: »

I don't think it's necessarily to do with people rising out of their social class. I think it's just plain aul ignorance and naivety. I don't think it's even related to class differences. I've seen some students, who's parents had made extraordinary sacrifices to keep their children from enduring hardship, be totally oblivious and ignorant towards the struggle others were making -even their own parents! It's an anecdote I know but in my experience it's never been begrudgery, just plain auld fashion ignorance.

That's it Turtwig. I wish people were concious of how much sacrifice people make to go to college and do something they love for ~4 years. It would be easier to go on the dole or get a full time job.

Turtwig

Many of them don't even like their course. Some hate them! They just see them as a job gateway (of which opportunities are scarce). This creates it's own problems but that's for another thread.

steddyeddy

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Yes they do and what you have just posted has nothing to do with rebuking your point that very poor people do not get access to the UCD library and services as they get their fees paid for them.

They don't because I work with very poor students in a voluntary capacity. You havent a clue what your talking about and for some reason you're bringing in political agendas.

A typical non payment of fees letter from UCD:

The University has a grace period of several weeks
for continuing students with their student card and
specifically access to the Library. This runs out
on 30 September every year. Your minimum fee
payment was due to be paid by Sunday, 9 September 2
012.
Your UCARD which gives you access to the Library ha
s today been deactivated as our records
currently show that you have not paid your minimum
fee payment requirement for 2012/13.
The importance of paying fees to maintaining access
to services such as the Library has been in
Registration reminders to students through the summ
er and last month.

steddyeddy

Turtwig wrote: »

Many of them don't even like their course. Some hate them! They just see them as a job gateway (of which opportunities are scarce). This creates it's own problems but that's for another thread.

Well that's very true and a lot of people who do science can't stand it. I would estimate 40% like it and maybe 10% love it.

steddyeddy

Here we are spelled out in black and white from the college Tribune:

Library access has been restricted since last Monday for students who have not yet paid their registration fee.
A number of students who contacted the paper were annoyed that, because they hadn’t received their grant, they were unable to pay their fees and now can’t borrow books or use the laptop loan service.
Speaking to the College Tribune about the situation Shane Comer, UCD Students’ Union Education Officer, said the SU are “extremely disappointed” with the situation and that “students should not be punished for [the] delay in grants being processed”.
He went on to lay the blame for the delay in the processing of grants firmly on the grant awarding authorities, including the county councils, VECs and the new online service, Student Universal Support Ireland (SUSI).
Michael Sinnott, Director of Administrative Services with UCD Registry said that this year, “all new grant applicants are being processed by SUSI…however, it would appear to be experiencing some first year challenges.” Mr Sinnott stated that UCD Registry had only received their first file from SUSI on Thursday of last week, substantially later than was expected. He went on to say that, “the number of students contained on the file is minuscule compared with the total number of students we expect to ultimately be awarded a SUSI grant.”

steddyeddy

anncoates wrote: »

I'd have been what you'd call a disadvantaged student in trinity and didn't encounter much of it to be fair. That said, it was really a different country them. Ironically even the most well off students I knew didn't have their own cars back then.

I said it before and I'll say it again Trinity is more inclusive than UCD despite reputation.