Long Bike Ride; IM training

zico10

I've no PM, HRM or cadence sensor, so my approach to this is going to be a lot more stone age than most on boards.

My plan is to begin with 5½ hour bike rides from the off. I won't spend any longer than this in the saddle between starting and mt race in September. What I will do is increase the duration of efforts, while decreasing the recovery time.

The first week would look like this,

30 mins warm up,
30 mins @ IM pace, 30 mins recovery,
30 mins @ IM pace, 30 mins recovery,
30 mins @ IM pace, 30 mins recovery,
30 mins @ IM pace, 30 mins recovery,
30 mins @ IM pace,
30 cool down.

This gives me 5x30 minute race paced efforts, which I'd increase by 3 minutes a week, capping it at 48 minutes with 12 minutes recovery, before beginning the next effort after 60 minutes. So my final long bike would look like this;

30 mins warm up,
48 mins @ IM pace, 30 mins recovery,
48 mins @ IM pace, 12 mins recovery,
48 mins @ IM pace, 12 mins recovery,
48 mins @ IM pace, 12 mins recovery,
48 mins @ IM pace,
30 cool down.

I also plan to do a 180km TT 3/4 weeks out from the race, but the above session would only see me cycling at race pace for 4 hours. Is this enough? Any thoughts on my plan in general?

Any and all opinions welcome.

Thanks.

shotgunmcos

Its enough!

Brick Session

I suggest you might look at spending a few Euro's on this

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Iron-Fit-Time-Efficient-Training/dp/1599218577/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1400615290&sr=1-1&keywords=be+iron+fit

Pmaldini

Brick Session wrote: »

I suggest you might look at spending a few Euro's on this

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Iron-Fit-Time-Efficient-Training/dp/1599218577/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1400615290&sr=1-1&keywords=be+iron+fit

Working with the competitive plan from this book, don't think it would be near the level that Zico is at, it's grand for a 1st tIMer like myself:)

peter kern

that would be a very costly error ;-) ( that book i mean)
out of interest they all told you you should not run 42k before the marathon ... it worked very well for you ;-) given that you recover faster from 180 km bikes than 42 k runs i cant see why you do not more long bike rides. what you plan every 2 weeks is fine but not every week .you need more variation
farris al sultan would usually do 1 or 2 300 kplus bikes before an IM ( not saying that you should do this as you are not as bike fit as run fit but you get the message )

and also rember you are way behind with the milage and need to build that slowly first ie first slow and long and then later more specific

Brick Session wrote: »

I suggest you might look at spending a few Euro's on this

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Iron-Fit-Time-Efficient-Training/dp/1599218577/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1400615290&sr=1-1&keywords=be+iron+fit

zico10

peter kern wrote: »

that would be a very costly error ;-) ( that book i mean)
out of interest they all told you you should not run 42k before the marathon ... it worked very well for you ;-) given that you recover faster from 180 km bikes than 42 k runs i cant see why you do not more long bike rides. what you plan every 2 weeks is fine but not every week .you need more variation
farris al sultan would usually do 1 or 2 300 kplus bikes before an IM ( not saying that you should do this as you are not as bike fit as run fit but you get the message )

and also rember you are way behind with the milage and need to build that slowly first ie first slow and long and then later more specific

All I'm hearing is 2 x 300k bike rides.:)

If that session is okay once every two weeks, what type of long ride would you recommend the other weeks?

peter kern

sorry iam not going to spoon feed you .
rember that most oly World series elite guys do slow 4.5- 5 hour bike rides in their early season prep ......for a sub 2 hour race...
and then ask yourself how serious you are and how much you can deal with.

BennyMul

zico10 wrote: »

All I'm hearing is 2 x 300k bike rides.:)

If that session is okay once every two weeks, what type of long ride would you recommend the other weeks?

sorry for ignorance here,
Is there an endurance plateau, is 300k on the bike warranted, Do the training benefits of this outweigh a 200k + 60/90min run for example.


of course apart from the enjoyment of being on the bike that long which I fully understand.

Brick Session

peter kern wrote: »

that would be a very costly error ;-) ( that book i mean)
out of interest they all told you you should not run 42k before the marathon ... it worked very well for you ;-) given that you recover faster from 180 km bikes than 42 k runs i cant see why you do not more long bike rides. what you plan every 2 weeks is fine but not every week .you need more variation
farris al sultan would usually do 1 or 2 300 kplus bikes before an IM ( not saying that you should do this as you are not as bike fit as run fit but you get the message )

and also rember you are way behind with the milage and need to build that slowly first ie first slow and long and then later more specific

Sorry Peter for trying to help the guy out, Don Finks book is a helpful tool for people who do not have a specific plan. Sorry maybe I should have put that another way, it helped me out when I was doing my first IM distance and by the looks of it the book has helped out thousand of others too. This is what pi**es me off about this forum, too many experts who knock everything that they don't suggest. :mad:

Oh and by the way Farris Al Sultun is a professional so why compare his regime?

zico10

BennyMul wrote: »

sorry for ignorance here,
Is there an endurance plateau, is 300k on the bike warranted, Do the training benefits of this outweigh a 200k + 60/90min run for example.


of course apart from the enjoyment of being on the bike that long which I fully understand.

You're not the only one who's ignorant about training or endurance plateaus, but for a professional with a lot more free time on their hands I could see the point of 300k plus bike rides. I'm sure they also do something similar to the '200k + 60/90min run' sessions you suggest. I doubt I'll be hitting 200k on too many long bikes, but '200k + 60/90min run' will be be a lot closer to what I plan to do.

zico10

Brick Session wrote: »

Sorry Peter for trying to help the guy out, Don Finks book is a helpful tool for people who do not have a specific plan. Sorry maybe I should have put that another way, it helped me out when I was doing my first IM distance and by the looks of it the book has helped out thousand of others too. This is what pi**es me off about this forum, too many experts who knock everything that they don't suggest. :mad:

Oh and by the way Farris Al Sultun is a professional so why compare his regime?

I think Peter was talking to me directly. He knows me personally, and is aware of the training I do. With this in mind, he knows the book wouldn't be a worthwhile investment for me.
Perhaps it came across in my original post that I don't have a specific plan, but I do (more or less). I don't mean to offend you and I honestly do appreciate you taking the time to make your original post. But I never intended buying the book, even before Peter's post. I know of other people who've found Don Fink to be very useful, but as far as I'm aware it's not aimed at people who are prepared to put in 25-30 hour training weeks, as I am.

peter kern

zico is a 2.30 marathon runner...
and way closer to faris than don fink level. in fact he would be as fast as a marathon runner as faris...
i am not saying fink plans are not good as they are great for a 13 hour finisher but zico is looking more for 9 xx hours

you are suggesting him to do a formula one race with a Vw polo ;-)

Brick Session wrote: »

Sorry Peter for trying to help the guy out, Don Finks book is a helpful tool for people who do not have a specific plan. Sorry maybe I should have put that another way, it helped me out when I was doing my first IM distance and by the looks of it the book has helped out thousand of others too. This is what pi**es me off about this forum, too many experts who knock everything that they don't suggest. :mad:

Oh and by the way Farris Al Sultun is a professional so why compare his regime?

tunney

Brick Session wrote: »

Sorry Peter for trying to help the guy out, Don Finks book is a helpful tool for people who do not have a specific plan. Sorry maybe I should have put that another way, it helped me out when I was doing my first IM distance and by the looks of it the book has helped out thousand of others too. This is what pi**es me off about this forum, too many experts who knock everything that they don't suggest. :mad:

Oh and by the way Farris Al Sultun is a professional so why compare his regime?

What pisses others off are people who try and transfer what they *think* works in marathons, prescriptive books, to long distance triathlon where there is no doubt it doesn't.

What pissues others off are people who offer generic advice to people and don't consider who the advice is to or the level that the advice could be possibly be useful for.

peter kern

physilogical 320 k is not warranted ...
but also 200 k in the wicklow mountanins take longer than 280 in abbu dhabi ;-)

BennyMul wrote: »

sorry for ignorance here,
Is there an endurance plateau, is 300k on the bike warranted, Do the training benefits of this outweigh a 200k + 60/90min run for example.


of course apart from the enjoyment of being on the bike that long which I fully understand.

Brick Session

Points taken lads but if the OP knows Peter personally, why come on a public forum asking for advice?

tunney

Brick Session wrote: »

Points taken lads but if the OP knows Peter personally, why come on a public forum asking for advice?

He didn't, he asked everyone. Most posters know zico's background.

catweazle

Brick Session wrote: »

Points taken lads but if the OP knows Peter personally, why come on a public forum asking for advice?

Peter might charge if he went to him privately

Brick most people on here would be familiar with Zicos logs over the years and know he has a sub 10 Ironman already and will be looking to get as close as possible to sub 9 this year I would guess.

Guys at that level are usually either self coached or have a coach in situ already, while I have read Finks book myself and found it good for my level, it probably wouldn't be specific enough for Zicos needs at this stage.

The only issue here is the presumption that everyone reads everyones logs which isn't the case, how were you to know at what level Zico is at unless you have read it

and also its well known that you are taking your life into your hands posting on the main forum anyways

trinewbie

This thread is a superb read.

Brick Session

tunney wrote: »

He didn't, he asked everyone. Most posters know zico's background.

Not me, anyway he is sorted now!

I think that there should be a seperate forum for Elite triathletes and athletes to praise and knock each other's achievements as they see fit. That way there won't be any interference by ordinary people.

Anyone who comes on here not in the club normally gets put down before they begin by the keyboard warriors.

tunney

Brick Session wrote: »

Not me, anyway he is sorted now!

I think that there should be a seperate forum for Elite triathletes and athletes to praise and knock each other's achievements as they see fit. That way there won't be any interference by ordinary people.

Anyone who comes on here not in the club normally gets put down before they begin by the keyboard warriors.

or we could all put you on the ignore list?

your advice was not in any way shape or form relevant to the OP, this was pointed out and you threw your toys out of the pram. Who is the one with the problem? Everyone else? Or just you?

Brick Session

tunney wrote: »

or we could all put you on the ignore list?

your advice was not in any way shape or form relevant to the OP, this was pointed out and you threw your toys out of the pram. Who is the one with the problem? Everyone else? Or just you?

Ignore away! 😊

griffin100

Brick Session wrote: »

I think that there should be a seperate forum for Elite triathletes and athletes to praise and knock each other's achievements as they see fit. That way there won't be any interference by ordinary people.

Dont forget the former 'elites', they need a place to play too

Brick Session wrote: »

Anyone who comes on here not in the club normally gets put down before they begin by the keyboard warriors.

That's the reason I suspect why very few newbies look for advice here anymore. Just look what happened to Elvis who wasn't a 'club' member - although I dont think we're allowed mention that, but I'm sure a Mod will let us know :rolleyes:.

<Mod> That saga was before my time as a mod. AFAIK, that whole saga was handled offline by the mods at the time. However, I think the 'club' generalisation is a bit much. Examples of newbies posting are listed below by zico. Appreciate that you've all decided to bring the thread back on topic.

Brick Session

griffin100 wrote: »

Dont forget the former 'elites', they need a place to play too



That's the reason I suspect why very few newbies look for advice here anymore. Just look what happened to Elvis who wasn't a 'club' member - although I dont think we're allowed mention that, but I'm sure a Mod will let us know :rolleyes:.

I don't know about the Elvis saga or don't want to re-hash whatever it was but maybe there is some merit in what I am saying.

zico10

griffin100 wrote: »

That's the reason I suspect why very few newbies look for advice here anymore. Just look what happened to Elvis who wasn't a 'club' member - although I dont think we're allowed mention that, but I'm sure a Mod will let us know :rolleyes:.

I just started this thread looking for advice on long bike rides, so without commenting on anything else; 'ATHY NEWBIE HELP', 'First time nudity...., 'Wetsuit Advice' and 'Transition Training' are all threads that in all likelihood were started by newbies, and all appear on the first page of the forum. Not sure about 'Olympic distance tapering', which is also in the first page.

trinewbie wrote: »

This thread is a superb read.

It is that, and it would be even more superb from my point of view, if you and Tunney could say something about my original query.

Brick Session

@ zico10

Apologies for hi-jacking your thread and going off one one that has being brewing for quite a while now.

griffin100

Brick Session wrote: »

@ zico10

Apologies for hi-jacking your thread and going off one one that has being brewing for quite a while now.

@ Zico10 - ^^^^^^^ what he said (this is why I tend to stick to the training logs and avoid the main page). Hopefully it'll get back on topic for you.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

zico10 wrote: »

I've no PM, HRM or cadence sensor, so my approach to this is going to be a lot more stone age than most on boards.

My plan is to begin with 5½ hour bike rides from the off. I won't spend any longer than this in the saddle between starting and mt race in September. What I will do is increase the duration of efforts, while decreasing the recovery time.

The first week would look like this,

30 mins warm up,
30 mins @ IM pace, 30 mins recovery,
30 mins @ IM pace, 30 mins recovery,
30 mins @ IM pace, 30 mins recovery,
30 mins @ IM pace, 30 mins recovery,
30 mins @ IM pace,
30 cool down.

This gives me 5x30 minute race paced efforts, which I'd increase by 3 minutes a week, capping it at 48 minutes with 12 minutes recovery, before beginning the next effort after 60 minutes. So my final long bike would look like this;

30 mins warm up,
48 mins @ IM pace, 30 mins recovery,
48 mins @ IM pace, 12 mins recovery,
48 mins @ IM pace, 12 mins recovery,
48 mins @ IM pace, 12 mins recovery,
48 mins @ IM pace,
30 cool down.

I also plan to do a 180km TT 3/4 weeks out from the race, but the above session would only see me cycling at race pace for 4 hours. Is this enough? Any thoughts on my plan in general?

Any and all opinions welcome.

Thanks.

I see no harm why you could not do a few more long bikes with straight IM effort. Let's face it IM bike intensity or intervals should not be knocking your b@lls out and if it is then it aint your IM pace...or else if you think it is enjoy the marathon struggle after the bike:P. You know yourself most hold 70 to 75% (obv higher for pros top Agers) so its not too far a step up from a steady ride. My long easy rides generally work out within 10-20w below of planned IM wattage.
Approach looks fine, is it similar to Copenhagen approach from last time?

tunney

zico10 wrote: »

I just started this thread looking for advice on long bike rides, so without commenting on anything else; 'ATHY NEWBIE HELP', 'First time nudity...., 'Wetsuit Advice' and 'Transition Training' are all threads that in all likelihood were started by newbies, and all appear on the first page of the forum. Not sure about 'Olympic distance tapering', which is also in the first page.



It is that, and it would be even more superb from my point of view, if you and Tunney could say something about my original query.

I deliberately avoided commenting on that as I know you and I have fundamental differences in training approaches I didn't want to start an argument, oh the irony.

Anyways - I think that by and large 4 hours is good enough for most of the year with maxing at 5.5-6 of focused work closer to the event.

zico10 wrote: »

30 mins warm up,
30 mins @ IM pace, 30 mins recovery,
30 mins @ IM pace, 30 mins recovery,
30 mins @ IM pace, 30 mins recovery,
30 mins @ IM pace, 30 mins recovery,
30 mins @ IM pace,
30 cool down.

Personally I think this is a junk session.
Big issue is the 1:1 recovery. I would (and am on Saturday) start IM training with 30 on, 10 off. I'd start with 3-4 of these. I'd probably put a HIM or OLY effort at the end onto a run.

I'd build the interval durations before the session durations. 35 on, 40 on, 45 on. At this point I'd build session duration until 5.5 hours with 30 warm up and then move to 45s and 50s exclusively until final bike would be 15x20 IM with zero recovery. In that session you should be covering close to 180km. I don't think after 5 months out is the time for over distance work.

zico10 wrote: »

30 mins warm up,
30 mins @ IM pace, 30 mins recovery,
30 mins @ IM pace, 30 mins recovery,
30 mins @ IM pace, 30 mins recovery,
30 mins @ IM pace, 30 mins recovery,
30 mins @ IM pace,
30 cool down.

30 mins warm up,
48 mins @ IM pace, 30 mins recovery,
48 mins @ IM pace, 12 mins recovery,
48 mins @ IM pace, 12 mins recovery,
48 mins @ IM pace, 12 mins recovery,
48 mins @ IM pace,
30 cool down.

If this was you last session I'd be concerned. Far too much recovery. If that level of recovery is required then you have overestimated your IM pace. You should be able to get off your last IM bike and run a 35 10km no bother - that is, it should feel like a piece of pi$$

My two cents and I'll just crawl back under my bridge.

Fazz

Hi Zico,

I'm a newbie to this distance but applying what little training experience I have so take what you want from my thoughts.

1 - I wouldn't do that type of session each week as already said - maybe once a fortnight at most.

2 - I'd agree with Tunney on the initial recovery - far too much you won't need it - however if doing as your long ride and just having a bit of quality then it may assist in the recovery process. I suspect knowing your training approach this is primed to be a quality session with intensity at RP though so I'd perhaps look at starting with a 3 or 4 x 30mins at RP, with 10-15mins recovery to start, and look to both extend the reps and lower the recovery a bit as you get stronger.

3 - FWIW, I've only done 1 IM session so far and ironically it was similar to yours. I did 3 x 30mins @ IM wattage, with circa 15mins recovery between each. Then I finished with 1 x 15mins at just above 70.3 wattage and had no issues.
This was in a 4 hour bike and I'm low on strength endurance at present and it was a surprisingly manageable ride.

Another example would be I've a planned 70.3 session being 3 x 30 @ 70.3 watts with 10mins recovery between each rep.
You won't need more than 10-15mins recovery between each IM rep I'd say going on my limited experience so far.

I haven't planned my July-Aug sessions yet so can't offer much in the way of plans there yet which may easily be incorrect anyway.
June for me is more about mixing +/- threshold efforts with easy endurance and not focussed on IM so not relevant to you (trying to build Oly strength for Kilkee).


Trinewbie would have much better experience, and he trains with quite a bit of intensity and vol at RP so in line with your approach.

Any words of wisdom to offer???

peter kern

i liked the guy who asked what zico did for his first IM
best question one could ask.
first thing one should look at is what worked and did not work the last time.
also what is missing is how can we comment on a long bike ride if we dodnt now the rest of the training ?
also is zico looking for a short term fix or has a long term goal.

for tunny one question given the fact that the op has done 22 km on bike from somewhere october till mid april you would still think its wrong to do overdistance given the lack of bike miles ?

peter kern

and anther thing iam interested zico what im pace are you using goal race pace your current pace ???

Jonnymercier

Id personally recommend the Don Finks book, its great to give a bit of structure to your training. Dont have to follow it to the letter, but gives a good guide of what you should be doing.

zico10

peter kern wrote: »

i liked the guy who asked what zico did for his first IM
best question one could ask.
first thing one should look at is what worked and did not work the last time.
also what is missing is how can we comment on a long bike ride if we dodnt now the rest of the training ?
also is zico looking for a short term fix or has a long term goal.

for tunny one question given the fact that the op has done 22 km on bike from somewhere october till mid april you would still think its wrong to do overdistance given the lack of bike miles ?

It was Jackyback who asked it and it was a good question. I intended to reply sooner, it's just I went off on a stag weekend on Friday and I'm only coming around now.

This approach is different to how I went about my long bikes last time. 4 years ago it was a 30 minute warm up, 30.00 40km TT effort, whatever length of time in between at a steady pace, 30.00 40km TT effort, 30.00 cooldown.
I'm not sure it worked, as I did fade a little bit towards the end of the bike on race day. On reflection I thought I hadn't spent enough time riding at a high intensity, so when I started training for an IM 70.3 two years ago I devised something like the session I outlined in the OP. It was only half the distance, but I was pleased with how I biked that day and put it down to the training. The difference was more intensity in my longer rides and I trained on the turbo as well.

I just wanted some general feedback on long bike rides not necessarily the rest of the training. I think it should be possible to say something in general on long rides, in the same way I think it's possible to say something in general on long runs for marathon training. I'm happy with the posts people have made and I have been given food for thought.

I know there's no quick fixes and no I'm not looking for one. Long Term goal is as you know IM Mallorca, so far I've entered only two races in the meantime. It'd be nice to do well in them, but they're not targets for me. Wherever they fall in my training they'll fall and I'll continue with Mallorca as my focus.

peter kern wrote: »

and anther thing iam interested zico what im pace are you using goal race pace your current pace ???

IM pace for me will be goal race pace 180 ÷ 5, so 36km/hr. I know with wind, hills, etc. it won't always be possible to hit this speed, and starting off training proper in a couple of weeks I don't expect to hit it for the 5 or whatever number of efforts. But I'll keep my RPE the same and I'm hoping towards the end of my training the speed will start averaging out somewhere around this. I know a 5 hour split on the day will ambitious, but no point aiming low.

zico10

@ jackyback I hope I've answered your question in the reply to Peter above. Sorry it took this length of time


Thanks Tunney, our approaches might be different, but I do read your posts with interest and appreciate your input. I'll take your advice on board whether you believe it or not.