Service history not as advertised

vintagevrs

I know someone who bought a 5 series from a dealer who imports them. Car was advertised with a full history and had about 50k miles on it. The service book wasn't with the car as it was still with the fleet company. The book was posted out weeks later and the car has had one service at 40k miles.

What should/can they do?

Thanks

colm_mcm

If its a fleet car, its probable that the car still has a full history. It may be available as a printout.
Unusual that the book wasn't stamped though, uk is usually on the ball for that sort of stuff.

Del2005

vintagevrs wrote: »

What should/can they do?

Thanks

Never believe anything a dealer or private seller says. If they claim service history verify it before you pay over.

What they can do now is contact the dealer and see what they offer as a solution.

mickdw

Well they have given the full service history of the car. Its just a piss poor one.
Buyer should have checked all this before buying.

corktina

Yep, no wrong doing. Full service history doesn't necessarily mean what you might think!

colm_mcm

corktina wrote: »

Yep, no wrong doing. Full service history doesn't necessarily mean what you might think!

Ah now really? It means all services were done on time and recorded.


Of course you could argue as mickdw points out. There is a history etc etc but its an accepted and established phrase.

corktina

Not necessarily. It could mean a full history of the services that took place. I think it has never been defined what it actually means and if you got caught like this, you'd be without a limb to stand on when complaining. It's a bit like tippexing a mileage on a timing belt cover, the words in an ad don't mean you shouldn't check!

dharn

Always thought full service history meant all service done when due and book stamped, bmw have condition based service so it should have an oil change at 20 k minimum

Del2005

dharn wrote: »

Always thought full service history meant all service done when due and book stamped, bmw have condition based service so it should have an oil change at 20 k minimum

Never assume that everyone thinks the same way. As full service history can mean it has a fully stamped book with receipts for all work done on time or that there is a record of every service done.

How long is a lifetime warranty? Yours or a time picked by the company

bazz26

If it's a 520d with the N47 engine then I'd be more concerned if it only got it's first oil change at 40k miles.

vintagevrs

Yeah its an n47. Iv already been stung with a timing chain failure on my own car. Thought it pretty poor that a dealer had this car advertised with fsh, and then discovered this. I wouldnt expect to have to check the service book or refuse buying without seeing one from a main dealer. Obviously that doesnt apply for a private sale. Hopefully as it's a fleet car it's just a mistake with paperwork. I'll give them a ring tomorrow.

corktina

It's probably OK. I had fleet cars for years, always got them serviced, never got the book stamped

djimi

dharn wrote: »

Always thought full service history meant all service done when due and book stamped, bmw have condition based service so it should have an oil change at 20 k minimum

Full service history to me means that all services are recorded in the book. It doesnt mean that all services took place on time, however if a car is advertised as having a FSH, and there is a 40k mile gap between serviced then you can take it as a given that no services were carried out during that time (even if that is not necessarily the case, but its the sellers fault for advertising the car as having a FSH).

ironclaw

If I bought a car new and gave it one service and then sold it 10 years later, as long as that is documented I have a full service history i.e. Any service to the car is documented. You have to be way more specific i.e. Every service interval documented and conducted on or within a reasonable time frame of manufacturers recommendations. Theres technically speaking no wrong doing here. Assumptions are the mother of all .... ups.

That said, unusual for a fleet car not to have a ream of paper work especially from the UK.

fmcg_scribe

Over the last 11 years, I have bought and sold 6 new and used BMW cars (E36 316i, E46 323i, E82 135i, E38 740i, E46 M3, and E60 535d) from from both BMW franchise and non-BMW franchise dealers in the UK and Ireland -

I'm Irish but currently live in the UK.

When buying used BMWs, I have always sweated over condition, specification, and service history. Broadly,

there are two reasons for that:
(1) "The day you buy is the day you sell." Although buying a car can be an emotional decision for a lot of people, unless you have money to burn or you want to keep a car until it's fit only for scrap, you should think carefully about whether the car that you want to buy will be easy to sell on. Considerations can include condition, specification (colour scheme, trim level, options, and so on - remember that no two BMWs are ever alike in every respect even when new), service history, and whether the car has been modified in some way. If a car that you want to buy has spec that appeals only to you, you will have problems selling it on. Equally, if the car has a good spec when you buy it but you modify it in some way (that cannot be easily reversed or changed), you might diminish its appeal for future resale.
(2) The economics of running any car boils down to the "three R's": Residuals, Reliability, and Running costs. The three R's feed off each other but they also need to be considered individually. Leaving aside mileage and condition, you might kill the residual value of a car if you buy the wrong spec. Leaving aside the build quality and reliability associated with a particular brand or model (I have also owned a Lexus IS), you need to dig around a car's service history to determine its past and potential future reliability. An otherwise good car could be harmed by the negligence of previous owners or the incompetence of the garages that serviced it. There are a lot of aspects to running costs (fuel, insurance, tax, servicing, and so on) but perhaps a less obvious one (for the naive or unwary, at least) is the phenomenon of being able to buy a car (when it reaches a certain age or mileage) but not being able to afford to run it because of the cost of replacement parts and labour costs for big repair jobs.

Apologies for the long preamble but I Wanted to put my comments below into context.

Picking up the earlier posts in this thread:
- I agree that it seems strange that the only "recorded" service to date was done at 40,000 miles.
- I agree also that if the car was truly a fleet car, there should be record somewhere of its service history.
- If the car was advertised as having a "full service history", I would expect to see the most recent MOT certificate, at least some stamps in the service log booklet, and perhaps some invoices, preferably from the last two to thrre years.
- If the car was advertised as having a "full BMW service history, I would expect to see the most recent MOT certificate, stamps from BMW dealers in the service log booklet for most of the car's life to date (a couple of stamps from so-called "BMW specialists" would also be acceptable), and some invoices covering several years.
- I agree also that a "full service history" is not the be all and end all. Buyer beware still applies and you must not be seduced by lots of paperwork. You need to inspect the car properly, know the issues that can affect that model and marque, and perhaps contact the garages that serviced the car if that information is available.

Different people will value service history differently. As a buyer of a used BMW, you may not care much for it but you need to realise that any garages that service the car while you own it might have questions about the car's life that you might not be able to answer because you have no information. Equally, selling on your car will be less stressful if you have some decent paperwork covering several years. Further, never forget that many people in the motor trade in the UK and Ireland reckon that the abbreviation "BMW" means "Big Money Worries". That jibe is a little harsh but it's also a recognition that repairing a bad BMW car can hurt your pocket and it follows that a BMW that has been neglected or poorly maintained will punish you. That's the potential downside of owning a BMW (or similar car) as opposed to something more bog standard.

In the case of the 520d under discussion, I would not have bought the car if I could not have traced the service history. There are various ways to do that and if you give yourself enough time and perhaps plan ahead you can do a lot of the necessary research from home without seeing the car first:
- If the car is a genuine BMW UK car, phoning the BMW UK Customer Information Team (costs £1 per minute, so not cheap but the information can save you time and money when you're evaluating several cars in different locations) and providing the UK reg number or the car's chassis number will enable you to find out the price when new of the car, the specification including the options, and a summary of the BMW dealer service history if any. If there is BMW dealer service history, you can contact the service department of each dealer to find out more (very few dealers will refuse you the information).
- Contact the garage mentioned in the service log booklet and see if the garage did any other work on the car not mentioned in the log.
- If there were invoices supplied with the MOT and (patchy) service log booklet, it might be worth contacting those garages to see if they did any other work on the car that's not mentioned in the invoices.
- The car's log book (DVLA form V5c) will usually have the name and address of the most recent keeper (DVLA distinguishes between keepers and owners), so even if a car was a company or fleet car, it's possible that the most recent keeper is mentioned by name. Admittedly, it might seem extreme or perhaps improper to track down a previous owner, but if there's no other option, it's something that you might have to consider.

If you have bought a used car with a patchy or incomplete service log booklet and you have collated information about the car's service history from phone calls and other means, it would be a good idea to visit those garages and get stamps for the service work completed.

corktina

Yeah but on the other hand, it can't be too difficult to get a stamp and stamp up the entire book bogusly ,especially if you are in the trade, and I'm sure it goes on all the time. So can you actually rely on a FSH or should you be looking for receipts etc?

fmcg_scribe

The ideal would be stamped service booklet and invoices but in my experience that can be too much hope for. That's why I said that it's worth chasing up any garages mentioned in any invoices or stamps - don't take the paperwork at face value. Regular, correct servicing should be a given. Visits to garages can also point up warranty issues and "problems cars".

It's important to be a little skeptical when looking at a car but if you come at it from the perspective that most used cars dealers are crooked, that used cars are usually clocked, and that paperwork for a car is not worth much, you might as well buy only new cars - or not buy any cars at all.

At the end of the day, I can say two things with confidence:
- A used BMW without any paperwork (that can be verified) is a ticking time bomb. Anyone who buys such a car and wants to keep it should set aside a few thousand pounds/Euro as contingency for repairs and servicing.
- A used BMW 520d with little or no paperwork will be difficult to sell on in Ireland, the UK, or most other European countries because the 520d is one of BMW's best selling models and buyers have so many to choose from.

the culture of deference

corktina wrote: »

Yeah but on the other hand, it can't be too difficult to get a stamp and stamp up the entire book bogusly ,especially if you are in the trade, and I'm sure it goes on all the time. So can you actually rely on a FSH or should you be looking for receipts etc?

Good point.

I looked at a Jag from a Dublin dealer recently.
The ad said
Jag FSH all stamped with recent service. I queried it and was told that Spirit traded it's older (5 year +) models to him, and he was the only dealer spirit did that with.

Anyway I phoned spirit, they sold the car 5 years ago and hadn't seen it since, and they had never heard of this dealer, and they do not sell to only one trader.

My motto now
If in any doubt keep asking questions.

visual

Salesmen are slippery at the best of times 2nd hand car salesmen are in a league of their own.
If they shake your hand at any time count your fingers.

fmcg_scribe

visual wrote: »

Salesmen are slippery at the best of times 2nd hand car salesmen are in a league of their own.
If they shake your hand at any time count your fingers.

That sort of talk is just pub talk. It does not help anyone.

I concede that some folks in the motor trade are cagey and perhaps even slippery but it's not fair to tar everyone with the same brush.

Many car dealers are often ignorant about the cars they're selling and often they don't put enough effort into preparing cars for sale. The reluctance to prepare cars stems from the fact that some dealers operate on the basis that they will find a buyer for a car first before agreeing to fixing or improving something wrong with car. Other dealers take the opposite view.

With some dealers, you will have more success during negotiations if you have done your research and know more about the car you're selling than they do before you even see it. Knowledge is power and if you have a choice of cars to evaluate, your position as potential buyer is strengthened even further.

At the end of the day, if you don't want to buy a used BMW from a private seller or an independent dealer, focus only on BMW approved used cars sold by BMW dealers - they have do due diligence on any approved used cars, and that usually includes doing an inspection service, rectifying any faults, and selling the car with a warranty.

the culture of deference

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

I concede that some folks in the motor trade are cagey and perhaps even slippery but it's not fair to tar everyone with the same brush..

Fair point. It is a very tough job. Most buyers think the salesman is there to give them a good deal. The salesman is there to max profit for the dealer.