The Pro Austerity Crowd

Ray Palmer

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And the economic argument that hounding these people won't fix the mess is true, but that's ignoring the moral dimension - when your incompetence f*cks over millions of people, there should be consequences.

So if you mess up in your job your wages and contributions should be taken away from you? If you are going to apply it at one level then you should apply it all.

SafeSurfer

longhalloween wrote: »

Yeah, but the high earners people are talking about in this thread are on nowhere near that kind of wages. We're talking about the ones on 100k a year.

Neary and those like him are in the 0.01%.

The problem as I see it is that people see the likes of Michael Fingleton, Sean Quinn, David Drumm in the paper and think "High Earners Ruined the Country". When in reality, most of Ireland's high earners are on much less wages than that and pay their (high) taxes like everyone else.

That's why calls to tax the rich are ridiculous, as the rich are already taxed disproportionately to the rest of the population and every argument involves some anecdotal or tabloid story of one guy getting away with millions.

Of course the rich are taxed disproportionately to the rest of society. That is the basis of a progressive, i.e. fair tax system.

Ray Palmer

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Of course the rich are taxed disproportionately to the rest of society. That is the basis of a progressive, i.e. fair tax system.

To an extent. The basis for a fair tax system but there is a point where it is not fair. I personally think you should never pay more than 50% income tax on any part of your earnings. That includes USC, prsi and any other part taken out of your gross salary.

ryan101

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Of course the rich are taxed disproportionately to the rest of society. That is the basis of a progressive, i.e. fair tax system.

The rich don't pay PAYE. They are a 101 creative ways to avoid paying taxes if you are wealthy enough. Ask any accountant.

Idbatterim

Of course the rich are taxed disproportionately to the rest of society. That is the basis of a progressive, i.e. fair tax system.

I think we will all have a very different definition of fair and as a country where all you ever hear about is "fair" from politicians "fair" on boards i.e. for a first world country I think we have to be the most unfair, in my opinion! The likes of Neary, Ahearn etc etc etc, riding off into the sunset with massive pensions is "Fair"? Long term wasters living off the taxpayers who are struggling is "fair"? No PS redundancies, lump sum payment on retirement, no accountability, generous pension v private sector is "fair"? Being robbed of 52c in the euro when you hit €32,800 is "fair"?, scum having committed countless crimes out roaming the streets is "fair"?

The rich don't pay PAYE. They are a 101 creative ways to avoid paying taxes if you are wealthy enough. Ask any accountant.

yeah and you or I or anyone in their right mind would do the same thing. I was watching a current affairs programme on BBC, discussing tax avoidance and Gary Barlow, an audience member said everyone here, including the hypocrite politicians on the panel would do the same thing, which got a large round of applause from the audience. Or would you do the "right" thing, and have it all pissed up against the wall, which it is as good as here, less so in the UK, there is definitely more accountability, welfare cap etc...

ryan101

Idbatterim wrote: »

yeah and you or I or anyone in their right mind would do the same thing. I was watching a current affairs programme on BBC, discussing tax avoidance and Gary Barlow, an audience member said everyone here, including the hypocrite politicians on the panel would do the same thing, which got a large round of applause from the audience.

Of course people will do it.
That's not a reason for not taxing the wealthy and closing such loopholes.
Austerity should be for everyone, not just the ordinary PAYE worker.

longhalloween

ryan101 wrote: »

The rich don't pay PAYE. They are a 101 creative ways to avoid paying taxes if you are wealthy enough. Ask any accountant.

Since PAYE comes out of your wages before you get them, I don't know how you can illegally avoid paying it.

And I don't see how increasing PAYE will fix this?

ryan101

longhalloween wrote: »

Since PAYE comes out of your wages before you get them, I don't know how you can illegally avoid paying it.

And I don't see how increasing PAYE will fix this?

The rich don't do PAYE, they pay low rate corporation tax.

Who said anything about increasing PAYE ?

darkpagandeath

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The thousands of empty/unwanted houses and apartments around the country must be an illusion so.

We overbuilt and convinced each other that it was normal to shell out 350k for a ****box that we'd be paying back for 40 years because everyone else was doing it.

Then we solely blame the banks for giving us the credit to do it.

I rented during the Celtic tiger even though i could easily have got a mortgage. I got an easily manageable mortgage a couple of years ago that i have already made two lump sum payments on and i'll have it paid off when i'm around 40. I bought a house at a price that i though was reasonable.

I wasn't willing to join in on the utter stupidity people were engaging in during the Celtic Tiger.

They were built via loans to developers most of them were never purchased. That's why the banks were scrambling to give out loans. So people could buy the property they had already loaned developers money to build.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Section 23, section 50. To shelter rental income unearnedbin the state.

Thanks for that, I find It highly dishonest of posters asking for direct evidence of what way people can aggressively tax evade. Unfortunately I am not an accountant, I just know there are many many ways of claiming or offsetting tax. If we all knew what the loop holes were and how to use them the tax system would collapse. Why do you think they pay a premium on pricey Accountants to avail of these schemes. Same when I mention Charity, Pretty sure donating to charity outside the state or via a 3rd party entity can be written off trough various means, It's dishonest just to pick the direct donation and saying you cant. I will use the UK again they are cracking down on it there comedians, band members all been caught out doing something that was technically legal. People are waking up to this and saying it’s morally bankrupt to evade your fare share of tax.

longhalloween

ryan101 wrote: »

The rich don't do PAYE, they pay low rate corporation tax.

Wouldn't you have to own a business to get that sort of deal?

ryan101 wrote: »

Who said anything about increasing PAYE ?

Well one of the prevalent topics on this thread is increasing taxes on the wealthy through raising the 52% PAYE limit :rolleyes:

ryan101

ryan101 wrote: »

The rich don't pay PAYE. They are a 101 creative ways to avoid paying taxes if you are wealthy enough. Ask any accountant.

Bye bye debate.

ryan101

longhalloween wrote: »

Wouldn't you have to own a business to get that sort of deal?


Well one of the prevalent topics on this thread is increasing taxes on the wealthy through raising the 52% PAYE limit :rolleyes:

Do you really think the rich are PAYE workers ?

mickydoomsux

We're back to making anecdote-based attacks on the amorphous blob that is "The Rich" again are we?

How much money do you need to have/earn before you transform into one of these evil beings?

darkpagandeath

mickydoomsux wrote: »

We're back to making anecdote-based attacks on the amorphous blob that is "The Rich" again are we?

How much money do you need to have/earn before you transform into one of these evil beings?

Enough to pay high level accountants to avail of every tax loop hole around.

mickydoomsux

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Enough to pay high level accountants to avail of every tax loop hole around.

High level accountants? Is this an RPG or something?

Are they the same thing as the "fancy accountants" that have been discussed in AH threads before?

darkpagandeath

mickydoomsux wrote: »

High level accountants? Is this an RPG or something?

Are they the same thing as the "fancy accountants" that have been discussed in AH threads before?

Yes High level/Fancy accountants, You know exactly what I am Talking about. I'm not being drawn on naming these firms. If your level of argument boils down to mocking the names I used I think were in trouble. :pac::pac::pac:

tritium

ryan101 wrote: »

Do you really think the rich are PAYE workers ?

Well off was defined by one poster here as earning >60k

100k is often mooted by leftwing commentators

Neary, a PAYE worker before retirement, was invoked by another for his massive salary

In all three cases that's predominantly PAYE workers.

How are you defining rich and what do you think the top pAye rate should be?

Ray Palmer

ryan101 wrote: »

The rich don't do PAYE, they pay low rate corporation tax.

Who said anything about increasing PAYE ?

Please explain as I have a business and an accountant and there is no way to do this. If I paid corporation tax then myself I would be adding 12.5% extra tax on top of what tax I already pay.

Idbatterim

100k is often mooted by leftwing commentators

100k LMAO! if you are a couple and earning 100k, with kids and a mortgage, on a 100k joint income, you are down to €69,783 immediately after tax, ad the cost of mortgage, mortgage protection, car or two, childcare etc, all the usual bills and living expenses, and anyone telling me that they are living it up, is off their rocker!!!

there should potentially be a higher rate from 150-200k plus, as it would hit a lot of the wasters in the Dail and the PS, consultants etc creaming it off. I dont know how many this would effect in the private sector, which I would be worried about (bankers excluded)...

longhalloween

Idbatterim wrote: »

100k LMAO!

Many of the posters here have cited less than this as the high earner threshold.

Ray Palmer

longhalloween wrote: »

Many of the posters here have cited less than this as the high earner threshold.

Primarily because they don't actually understand that if you get paid twice what they earn you don't end up with twice as much in your pocket.

Idbatterim

like Ray has said above, the gross amount may look great, but with the ridiculously high marginal rate, from such a low base E32,800 the reality is very different... The gross rate is redundant IMO. Its not even like you are getting extra pension or welfare if you become unemployed, where it is linked. Its just your money down a black hole...

SafeSurfer

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Please explain as I have a business and an accountant and there is no way to do this. If I paid corporation tax then myself I would be adding 12.5% extra tax on top of what tax I already pay.

A company, Ltd, PLC etc pays corporation tax at 12.5%
Employees of the company pay PAYE on their salary from the company.

You don't pay your personal taxes then 12.5% on business profits, its the other way about.
Unless of course you are a sole trader and your business profits are your income, then the 12.5% rate doesn't apply.

There seems to be some confusion about the difference of having a business as opposed to a company.

Ray Palmer

SafeSurfer wrote: »

A company, Ltd, PLC etc pays corporation tax at 12.5%
Employees of the company pay PAYE on their salary from the company.

You don't pay your personal taxes then 12.5% on business profits, its the other way about.
Unless of course you are a sole trader and your business profits are your income, then the 12.5% rate doesn't apply.

There seems to be some confusion about the difference of having a business as opposed to a company.

I have a company and an accountant.

I meant, if I was to pay corporation tax I would pay 12.5% and then on the income I would pay my personal tax on top of that. There is no way around this according to my accountant. It was claimed I don't have to pay any income tax and would only have to pay corporation tax.

Please explain how to do this as my accountant says I can't. I would love to cut my tax bill if this is possible.

longhalloween

ryan101 wrote: »

The rich don't do PAYE, they pay low rate corporation tax.

This grossly misinformed person said it.

ryan101

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I have a company and an accountant.

I meant, if I was to pay corporation tax I would pay 12.5% and then on the income I would pay my personal tax on top of that. There is no way around this according to my accountant. It was claimed I don't have to pay any income tax and would only have to pay corporation tax.

Please explain how to do this as my accountant says I can't. I would love to cut my tax bill if this is possible.

We're not talking about the self employed in small companies.
Rich people don't work Ray, share options and earnings from shares just for starters.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

ryan101 wrote: »

We're not talking about the self employed in small companies.
Rich people don't work Ray, share options and earnings from shares just for starters.

Where do you think they got said share options? Found them on the street? It is true that the more money you make the more of it comes from shares, capital gains etc but that makes sense. If I was earning 100K ( or whatever we are defining "rich" as on this page of the thread) you can be damn sure I'd be investing it in shares and share options. Savings interest rates are pathetic even before you get hit with DIRT so why would you not buy shares if you had plenty of money? It isn't some massive conspiracy, its good economic sense.

ryan101

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Where do you think they got said share options? Found them on the street? It is true that the more money you make the more of it comes from shares, capital gains etc but that makes sense. If I was earning 100K ( or whatever we are defining "rich" as on this page of the thread) you can be damn sure I'd be investing it in shares and share options. Savings interest rates are pathetic even before you get hit with DIRT so why would you not buy shares if you had plenty of money? It isn't some massive conspiracy, its good economic sense.

You don't have to be a PAYE worker in a company to qualify for share options.

Ray Palmer

ryan101 wrote: »

We're not talking about the self employed in small companies.
Rich people don't work Ray, share options and earnings from shares just for starters.

So it is completely not true unless you are an investor. The things is I don't even think that is true either. You pay paye on all income including rent.

There are certain ways around aspects of it but you still pay as paye person on income AFAIK. Can anybody explain it?

The like of investment schemes Jimmy Carr and Gary Barlow used were not even this. They were attempts to use tax rules but not actually allowed in the end.

longhalloween

ryan101 wrote: »

We're not talking about the self employed in small companies.
Rich people don't work Ray, share options and earnings from shares just for starters.

Yeah, but they're still subject to capital gains tax when they sell those shares. It's one thing to be rich on paper, but another to have liquidity.