Costs of breeding

jimf

imho if you were to describe yourself as a responsible dog breeder you should not be able to make money/living from it

anytime I have bred my springers i think I was lucky if I broke even


Mod note: this and the ensuing posts have been split away from another thread, so if there appears to be anything out of kilter, that's why!
Thanks,
DBB

Lemlin

jimf wrote: »

imho if you were to describe yourself as a responsible dog breeder you should not be able to make money/living from it

anytime I have bred my springers i think I was lucky if I broke even

I have to say I really don't understand this viewpoint and I've said it on here before. I've given the example of Labradors in the past but I know recently a man who knows very little about the IKC or even his dog's breed club.

He bred his dog off an IKC Champion for that breed. The only cost to him in terms of the stud was a pup to the owner of the stud. His own dog was just a pet and, while a nice dog, had no titles to her name.

His dog had eight pups and he sold seven (one going to the stud owner). At a price of €650 per pup. That's €4550. I do not see how the expenses in breeding could have cost him €4550 or near it. He was also aided by the breed club (the reason I am not giving the breed type of the dog) in that they gave his details to prospective owners because of who the stud was.

I've seen on here before people try to put the costs of showing their dog etc. as an expense related to their pups. I'd see that as an expense due to their hobby, not due to breeding. For example, I wouldn't see feeding my dog for the rest of the year as an expense of breeding.

Therefore I cannot see how you can say that a responsible breeder could not make money from breeding. Of course they couldn't make a living but so many people wouldn't be doing it if there wasn't something in it for them, and that includes the responsible breeders.

jimf

I know and understand your view on this lemlin but you just gave a typical all went well for this litter story

im coming from the view point that over the bitches life and the number of litters im prepared to let mine have maybe im wrong but typical breeding with me is a litter at 2yo and another at 4yo end of breeding from that bitch for me


heres a typical scenario I had 4 years ago bitch in trouble had to have c birth spent 3 nights at vets came home mastitis three times lucky for me I knew she was in trouble I suppose that's where experience comes in

then take all the vacs and reg pups etc break even I was happy I got what I wanted from the mating the continuation of a very old springer line and this to me is what breeding should be all about for the continuation and betterment of what we have and wish to continue with

and just reading your post again says it all to me why that bitch was bred from she had 8 pups sold 7 and 1 to the owner of the stud dog

Knine

If people want quality puppies Lemlin, It takes an awful lot of money to produce them. I only breed from top quality champion/working stock with correct mouths, excellent conformation & working ability. This is all proven by the dogs winning at the highest level.

Other expenses apart from showing as a reputable breeder are

Kennel Name prefix
IKC membership
Registrations
Club Membership, traveling etc
Microchipping
Bitch testing for fertile window
Stud Fee (huge for decent dog)
Travel to Stud dog(e.g. Ferry, 3 hour drives each way) I don't use the local handy dog
All required breed tests
Scan for bitch
Huge supportive puppy pack for each puppy
Support & advice for life of puppy
Free Grooming - Hand Stripping
Running heat lamps & non stop washing of bedding
Puppies are often fully vaccinated leaving me & wormed every 2 weeks.
Vet Fees

No point cutting corners & the above is what should be expected from a reputable breeder.

As Jimf mentioned above emergencies are not covered. My last litter was an emergency Section. I got 3 puppies & kept one. How much do you reckon I made after the above costs were taken out?

jimf

Knine wrote: »

If people want quality puppies Lemlin, It takes an awful lot of money to produce them. I only breed from top quality champion/working stock with correct mouths, excellent conformation & working ability. This is all proven by the dogs winning at the highest level.

Other expenses apart from showing as a reputable breeder are

Kennel Name prefix
IKC membership
Registrations
Club Membership, traveling etc
Microchipping
Bitch testing for fertile window
Stud Fee (huge for decent dog)
Travel to Stud dog(e.g. Ferry, 3 hour drives each way) I don't use the local handy dog
All required breed tests
Scan for bitch
Huge supportive puppy pack for each puppy
Support & advice for life of puppy
Free Grooming - Hand Stripping
Running heat lamps & non stop washing of bedding
Puppies are often fully vaccinated leaving me & wormed every 2 weeks.
Vet Fees

No point cutting corners & the above is what should be expected from a reputable breeder.

As Jimf mentioned above emergencies are not covered. My last litter was an emergency Section. I got 3 puppies & kept one. How much do you reckon I made after the above costs were taken out?

didn't break even I bet

Knine

jimf wrote: »

didn't break even I bet

I lost a lot of money & many nights of stress but got 3 quality puppies because I went to a lot of effort to find the right dog for my bitch.

Lemlin

jimf wrote: »

I know and understand your view on this lemlin but you just gave a typical all went well for this litter story

im coming from the view point that over the bitches life and the number of litters im prepared to let mine have maybe im wrong but typical breeding with me is a litter at 2yo and another at 4yo end of breeding from that bitch for me


heres a typical scenario I had 4 years ago bitch in trouble had to have c birth spent 3 nights at vets came home mastitis three times lucky for me I knew she was in trouble I suppose that's where experience comes in

then take all the vacs and reg pups etc break even I was happy I got what I wanted from the mating the continuation of a very old springer line and this to me is what breeding should be all about for the continuation and betterment of what we have and wish to continue with

and just reading your post again says it all to me why that bitch was bred from she had 8 pups sold 7 and 1 to the owner of the stud dog

I also respect your view jimf but, to be honest, if I was to believe all the stories I read on here then every person would be expecting complications with breeding. I've been around dog breeding since I could walk and I'd see it as rare that a bitch has complications. In fact, I'd say the norm is the "all went well for this litter story". I do know people that things didn't work out for (one friend recently had 11 pups, only 3 lived) but that is the exception from those I know rather than the norm.

I understand that you only breed twice and respect to you for it. I've given my own views here previously re the IK allowing a bitch to have six litters. This man I know has no plan to breed again until his dog is 5, she's three now, and will then be neutering her. He was very responsible and had done all his research - had litter box ready, dog on puppy food while pregnant, health tests etc. That said, the fact remains that he has made a bit of cash on the side from his pet. Therefore I'd have to disagree with the point often said on here that responsible breeders will not make money from breeding. The fact is they do and that is why a lot of them continue doing it. Yes, for some it is to do with continuation of the breed but it is also about bringing in cash for plenty. Now I fully realise many are putting this profit back into their dog but it is a profit they are making.

Regarding the vaccinations. The price here in Cavan for vaccinating and microchipping 8 pups is €310. Your wormer is €30 max for a bottle of Drontal worming solution. Flea treatment would be max €5 a pup. That's another €40. Hip tests are about €600 per hip so €1200 but only need to be done once so will stand for multiple breedings. There are other miscellaneous costs but nothing near the €4550 that man was making.

I've challenged other users on here before to explain how someone with say, 9 or 12 Labrador pups, wouldn't make a profit if selling the pups for €600 a piece and nobody could give an adequate answer.

To be honest, I can't comment on where the seven pups went to. The man was a friend of a friend and it could have been to family members or people who pre-ordered for all I know. I didn't get into the specifics of it. The one thing which did surprise me was the breed club giving out his details to potential owners. They knew nothing about his dog bar that it had papers. They gave out his details on the strength of the sire. I had always thought that breed clubs would only give out the details of dogs where they knew both the history of the dam and the sire.

andreac

Hip tests €600 per hip?? What kind of Hip tests are you doing?

Hip scoring costs a max of €200-250 in total. Its whatever your vet charges to take the xrays, usually 100 or so give or take, and then the fee for the BVA in the UK to score them which is only £57. So not sure where you are getting those figures from?

Lemlin

Knine wrote: »

If people want quality puppies Lemlin, It takes an awful lot of money to produce them. I only breed from top quality champion/working stock with correct mouths, excellent conformation & working ability. This is all proven by the dogs winning at the highest level.

Other expenses apart from showing as a reputable breeder are

Kennel Name prefix
IKC membership
Registrations
Club Membership, traveling etc
Microchipping
Bitch testing for fertile window
Stud Fee (huge for decent dog)
Travel to Stud dog(e.g. Ferry, 3 hour drives each way) I don't use the local handy dog
All required breed tests
Scan for bitch
Huge supportive puppy pack for each puppy
Support & advice for life of puppy
Free Grooming - Hand Stripping
Running heat lamps & non stop washing of bedding
Puppies are often fully vaccinated leaving me & wormed every 2 weeks.
Vet Fees

No point cutting corners & the above is what should be expected from a reputable breeder.

As Jimf mentioned above emergencies are not covered. My last litter was an emergency Section. I got 3 puppies & kept one. How much do you reckon I made after the above costs were taken out?

To answer your question (as people on here I find have a habit of avoiding questions), I imagine you made no profit and had a loss. But, as I've said, you are the exception rather than the norm. Do you mean to tell me that a reputable breeder with say nine Labrador pups selling at €650 won't make a profit from their sale? I can't see costs running to 6k for a litter of pups.

Some of the costs from above:
Kennel name prefix - €150 for lifetime prefix and stands for multiple litters.

IKC membership - I paid €100 for lifetime membership a few years back myself. It used to be even cheaper and may be more expensive now.

Registration of pups - I can't remember off the top of my head but its €15 or €20 a pup. Less than €200 for 8 or 9 pups anyway.

Stud fee - as I've said above, this man got an IKC show champion for a pup in return.

Travel to Stud dog(e.g. Ferry, 3 hour drives each way) I don't use the local handy dog - I imagine it would be rare for breeders to travel to the UK for a stud dog. Most of the Labradors I see online for example are bred from other dogs in NI or ROI. They are from responsible breeders and are award winning dogs with FtCH, FTW and show champion titles. A ferry to the UK can be as little as €42 according to IrishFerries I might add.

Club membership, travelling etc. - as I've said, this is a cost related to your hobby, not to breeding. I wouldn't count the cost of feeding a dog as a cost of breeding for example.

Bitch testing, scan - €60 each I'd imagine. My own vet does a blood test for €65.

Support & advice for life of puppy - again, that costs nothing and is something all breeders should happily provide. I actually like to hear from people who have purchased a pup from me and love to get pictures etc.

Free Grooming - Hand Stripping: I would imagine very few breeders provide this.

Running heat lamps and non stop washing of bedding - the costs of these would be minimal. A farmer could have several heat lamps going with calves at once. A breeder will only have one for a week or so when the pups are first born.

Puppies are often fully vaccinated and wormed every two weeks - as I've said, wormer is €30 for drontal worming solution. Vaccinations here in Cavan would cost €310 for 8 pups for the first set with microchipping and then a further €150 for the second set at 10 weeks so less than €500 in total for vaccinations and chipping for 8 pups. It'd actually be €500 on the button for nine pups fully vaccinated with both vaccinations and microchips.

To be honest, you are the exception rather than the norm and I commend you for it. You've listed as many costs as you can and still are nowhere near what a breeder selling their pups for €600 or €650 would make from a litter if they had 8+ pups.

andreac wrote: »

Hip tests €600 per hip?? What kind of Hip tests are you doing?

Hip scoring costs a max of €200-250 in total. Its whatever your vet charges to take the xrays, usually 100 or so give or take, and then the fee for the BVA in the UK to score them which is only £57. So not sure where you are getting those figures from?

Sorry, I think I'm including the costs of eye tests and all tests there. Will check the correspondence I have. I also may mean €600 in total. Am writing this from memory. Again though, it reinforces my point. The cost of hip scoring is even less than I thought when writing that.

Knine

Lemlin wrote: »

Some of the costs from above:
Kennel name prefix - €150 for lifetime prefix and stands for multiple litters.

IKC membership - I paid €100 for lifetime membership a few years back myself. It used to be even cheaper and may be more expensive now.

Registration of pups - I can't remember off the top of my head but its €15 or €20 a pup. Less than €200 for 8 or 9 pups anyway.

Stud fee - as I've said above, this man got an IKC show champion for a pup in return.

Travel to Stud dog(e.g. Ferry, 3 hour drives each way) I don't use the local handy dog - I imagine it would be rare for breeders to travel to the UK for a stud dog. Most of the Labradors I see online for example are bred from other dogs in NI or ROI. They are from responsible breeders and are award winning dogs with FtCH, FTW and show champion titles. A ferry to the UK can be as little as €42 according to IrishFerries I might add.

Club membership, travelling etc. - as I've said, this is a cost related to your hobby, not to breeding. I wouldn't count the cost of feeding a dog as a cost of breeding for example.

Bitch testing, scan - €60 each I'd imagine. My own vet does a blood test for €65.

Support & advice for life of puppy - again, that costs nothing and is something all breeders should happily provide. I actually like to hear from people who have purchased a pup from me and love to get pictures etc.

Free Grooming - Hand Stripping: I would imagine very few breeders provide this.

Running heat lamps and non stop washing of bedding - the costs of these would be minimal. A farmer could have several heat lamps going with calves at once. A breeder will only have one for a week or so when the pups are first born.

Puppies are often fully vaccinated and wormed every two weeks - as I've said, wormer is €30 for drontal worming solution. Vaccinations here in Cavan would cost €310 for the first set with microchipping and then a further €160 for the second set at 10 weeks so less than €500 in total for vaccinations and chipping.

To be honest, you are the exception rather than the norm and I commend you for it. You've listed as many costs as you can and still are nowhere near what a breeder selling their pups for €600 or €650 would make from a litter if they had 8+ pups.



Sorry, I think I'm including the costs of eye tests and all tests there. Will check the correspondence I have. I also may mean €600 in total. Am writing this from memory. Again though, it reinforces my point. The cost of hip scoring is even less than I thought when writing that.

I pay Dublin vets prices. I would not be driving young puppies to Cavan! I would never ever offer a puppy from a litter as generally I'm only breeding to continue a line & no way will I be handing over my best puppy & generally it is pick of the litter.

The cost of the section was more then the cost of a puppy.

Edited to add I would not buy a puppy from someone who was not active in their breed Club. Hence Club membership etc is included.

I do have huge waiting lists so I must be doing something right!

Lemlin

Knine wrote: »

I pay Dublin vets prices. I would not be driving young puppies to Cavan! I would never ever offer a puppy from a litter as generally I'm only breeding to continue a line & no way will I be handing over my best puppy & generally it is pick of the litter.

The cost of the section was more then the cost of a puppy.

Edited to add I would not buy a puppy from someone who was not active in their breed Club. Hence Club membership etc is included.

I do have huge waiting lists so I must be doing something right!

Even with Dublin prices, the prices would run nowhere near the costs some litters bring in.

As I've said Knine, you are the exception rather than the norm. You cannot base every other breeder's experience of breeding puppies on yours. Does every breeder you know in your club go to the UK for a stud or have these complications with every litter?

You are taking an extreme situation and trying to present it as the norm which is what I find is continually done on this forum.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for pups only being bred correctly but this notion that any reputable breeder will not make profit from litters really irks me.

As I've asked, do you mean to tell me that a reputable breeder with say nine Labrador pups selling at €650 won't make a profit from their sale? I can't see costs running to 6k for a litter of pups.

Knine

Lemlin wrote: »

Even with Dublin prices, the prices would run nowhere near the costs some litters bring in.

As I've said Knine, you are the exception rather than the norm. You cannot base every other breeder's experience of breeding puppies on yours. Does every breeder you know in your club go to the UK for a stud or have these complications with every litter?

You are taking an extreme situation and trying to present it as the norm which is what I find is continually done on this forum.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for pups only being bred correctly but this notion that any reputable breeder will not make profit from litters really irks me.

As I've asked, do you mean to tell me that a reputable breeder with say nine Labrador pups selling at €650 won't make a profit from their sale? I can't see costs running to 6k for a litter of pups.

If they were two Champion top quality dogs then yes their costs would be higher then your figure! if just pets quality animals then they are not worth that price & it is buyer beware. Your example was a pet bitch & a high price paid on the back of using a champion dog.

Also you should note most reputable breeders don't have numerous litters. In my case its a maximum of 2. People in my club travel a lot further then the UK actually!

jimf

Lemlin wrote: »

Even with Dublin prices, the prices would run nowhere near the costs some litters bring in.

As I've said Knine, you are the exception rather than the norm. You cannot base every other breeder's experience of breeding puppies on yours. Does every breeder you know in your club go to the UK for a stud or have these complications with every litter?

You are taking an extreme situation and trying to present it as the norm which is what I find is continually done on this forum.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for pups only being bred correctly but this notion that any reputable breeder will not make profit from litters really irks me.

As I've asked, do you mean to tell me that a reputable breeder with say nine Labrador pups selling at €650 won't make a profit from their sale? I can't see costs running to 6k for a litter of pups.

lemlin if you base this argument on 9 pups for sale at 650 each then yes you are 100% correct money will be made

but what about the many litters of 4 that are born / survive not all pups to be sold and maybe for a lot less that 650

but I for 1 cant get my head around the idea of breeding your own bitch and then not wanting to keep 1 of the pups myself :eek: ah its me I know old fashioned git that I am

jimf

Knine wrote: »

If they were two Champion top quality dogs then yes their costs would be higher then your figure! if just pets quality animals then they are not worth that price & it is buyer beware. Your example was a pet bitch & a high price paid on the back of using a champion dog.

Also you should note most reputable breeders don't have numerous litters. In my case its a maximum of 2. People in my club travel a lot further then the UK actually!

its great to see others subscribe to the 2 litters per bitch

andreac

Unless I was planning on breeding to keep something for myself I wouldn't be doing it.
I've had one litter of my own and I kept a male and I honestly don't know if I will ever do it again.
It's so much hard work and I really can't see myself doing it again. My whole life was on hold for literally 2 months when the puppies were born and I even got a pup returned to me two weeks later as it didn't work out with the new owner.

For the bit of money you do, if you do make any, I don't think is worth all the hard work and heartache of raising a litter right.

I think I will just buy from now on.

borderlinemeath

There was a litter of pups born here last year to a rescue dog, long story short, she was rescued from a local sanctuary when she was in pup, the sanctuary (using the term loosely!) either didn't know she was pregnant or didn't disclose it to the people who rescued her, but a vet visit in the following days confirmed she was in pup. They had already planned their holidays and the vet gave an estimated window and they should have been back in plenty of time but of course she whelped on Good Friday and her owners weren't back until Easter Monday!

Unfortunately she was an experienced bitch, it wasn't her first litter. She had been dumped in the shelter probably when the owners found out she was pregnant again and didn't want the hassle of dealing with it, I imagine they found out that they didn't make too much money from the venture the first time around:(. So she was dumped along with her mate and her son from the first litter.

You would imagine with an experienced bitch that all would go well but there was too long a gap between the first and second puppies so I called the vet. Luckily I have a good relationship with the local vet, who looks after my dogs and my clients dogs and I had her mobile number from speaking to her earlier in the day when I first noticed that something may have been happening. So we had to go out to the practice to ensure all was well, and get a shot of oxytocin to speed her along. Thankfully she wasn't blocked and didn't need a section but it was close.

Her new owners paid all the vet visits, scans, food, got a whelping box, got bowls, puppy food, puppy collars, paid for vaccinations, worming and microchipping. Even though the pups were pure bred as she was a rescue there was no papers so there was no registration, so they didn't have that cost.

There was 6 pups, they kept one and rehomed the rest, and they didn't make a penny. It cost them a good deal of money as it wasn't something they did to make money, they did it to save the dog and for the best for the pups. A rescue that cost them a great deal of money in fact. There's not many people like that out there.

Lemlin

Knine wrote: »

If they were two Champion top quality dogs then yes their costs would be higher then your figure! if just pets quality animals then they are not worth that price & it is buyer beware. Your example was a pet bitch & a high price paid on the back of using a champion dog.

Also you should note most reputable breeders don't have numerous litters. In my case its a maximum of 2. People in my club travel a lot further then the UK actually!

How does having a champion dog increase your breeding cost? As I said earlier, the cost of having your champion dog is down to your hobby, it is not a cost of breeding.

As I also pointed out earlier, you wouldn't include everyday costs like feeding your dog as a breeding overhead. That is an everyday cost of owning a dog.

The amount of litters doesn't come into it. I'm talking even about a single litter. The fact is the costs of that litter are generally far less than the price paid per pup, even for the most reputable breeders.

I'm sure they do travel further. I myself know a man who travelled to Russia to get a Schnauzer pup. Again, he's the exception rather than the norm.

jimf wrote: »

lemlin if you base this argument on 9 pups for sale at 650 each then yes you are 100% correct money will be made

but what about the many litters of 4 that are born / survive not all pups to be sold and maybe for a lot less that 650

Thank you. Finally someone answers the question and admits what nobody else will.

The fact is some litters can have problems but not as many as painted on here, certainly not in my experience anyway. My family has owned dogs 30 years and a dog of ours has never needed a c-section or veterinary assistance delivering pups. That's between terriers, springers and Labradors.

andreac wrote: »

Unless I was planning on breeding to keep something for myself I wouldn't be doing it.
I've had one litter of my own and I kept a male and I honestly don't know if I will ever do it again.
It's so much hard work and I really can't see myself doing it again. My whole life was on hold for literally 2 months when the puppies were born and I even got a pup returned to me two weeks later as it didn't work out with the new owner.

For the bit of money you do, if you do make any, I don't think is worth all the hard work and heartache of raising a litter right.

I think I will just buy from now on.

I don't mean to be smart but the pups eyes aren't open for two weeks, and they basically eat and sleep. Why would you life need to be in hold for this period?

There's certainly no need for your life to be on hold for two months for a litter of pups and I think again we are seeing a poster on here present the extreme and try to paint it as the norm.

Lemlin

jimf wrote: »

but again lemlin I ask you why do you insist on every bitch having 9 pups for sale will you please give me your views on the same scenario but change that to 4 pups

Not every bitch has nine pups. Plenty have 6, some have 8, some even have 12. And some have 4 as you say. Although the breeds I deal with (gundogs) I rarely see it.

4 pups lets say at €650 a pup for a reputable breeder. That's €2600. Would I expect the cost of breeding to run to that? No I would not.

I already have given the example of a friend who had 11 pups and ended up with 3. It does happen but, as I keep saying, it's the exception rather than the norm.

Of course, some breeds would also sell for more than the €650. A litter of four pigs could be €1200 each.

Knine

Lemlin have you any idea how much it costs to make up a Champion? How else do you prove your dog is worth breeding from? or are you qualified to say your dog is top notch? Breeding from anything else is just backyard breeding or Greeders as I tend to call them.

Oh & to answer the above poster. The average litter size in one of my breeds is 4. Regularly there are singletons born!

Oh pugs have only small litters & often a section. Their stud fee would be the price or more of a pup.

Lemlin

Knine wrote: »

Lemlin have you any idea how much it costs to make up a Champion? How else do you prove your dog is worth breeding from? or are you qualified to say your dog is top notch? Breeding from anything else is just backyard breeding or Greeders as I tend to call them.

Oh & to answer the above poster. The average litter size in one of my breeds is 4. Regularly there are singletons born!

Oh pugs have only small litters & often a section. Their stud fee would be the price or more of a pup.

But is showing the dog not your hobby? I know plenty of people who show their dogs and have champion dogs. None would describe showing their dog as a means of proving their dog's worthiness for breeding. They describe it as their hobby.

I actually know people who have champion dogs and have relatively low costs. One man feeds his champion dogs Massbrook food that costs €20 or so. I wouldn't feed it to my own dogs for example. This idea that everyone who shows dogs has huge costs is also misleading tbh. I'm sure some do but not all.

Of course I'm not qualified to say my dog is top notch. I've never shown a dog in my life. My dogs are gundogs and pets. People looking for pups are pointed towards breed clubs on here alot. Is every pup suggested by a breed club a champion dog? That has proved it's lineage? Certainly not in my experience.

I'd also point out that a breed club gave out the details of the man I spoke about originally and his dog has never been shown.

Lemlin

DBB wrote: »

Okay all,
No more arguing/debating about breeding on this thread please. It's gone way off topic despite the OP trying to get it back on track.
On-topic posts from this point on only please, if you want to debate about the costs of breeding any further, please start a new thread.
Thanks,
DBB

Could the posts maybe be moved to a thread? I am interested in continuing this elsewhere.

DBB

Lemlin wrote: »

Could the posts maybe be moved to a thread? I am interested in continuing this elsewhere.

I have moved the relevant posts over to this new thread now, but PLEASE realise that you made work for me that I could have done without by bringing that other thread off-topic, yet again, about the topic of breeding costs.
You already have a thread on this topic, and have highjacked others... do not start this argument yet again elsewhere. Either stick to this thread, or the other one that died a death ages ago.
If you divert any other future threads again on this topic, your posts will be automatically deleted.
Do not reply to this post on-thread.
DBB

borderlinemeath

Lemlin wrote: »

I don't mean to be smart but the pups eyes aren't open for two weeks, and they basically eat and sleep. Why would you life need to be in hold for this period?

There's certainly no need for your life to be on hold for two months for a litter of pups and I think again we are seeing a poster on here present the extreme and try to paint it as the norm.

The pups born in my place, were only here for 3 days. In those 3 days I barely slept and I don't think I left the house, even to go to the shops, for fear that something might happen, the bitch might roll over and smother a couple of the pups or something.

I paid very close attention to them, I changed bedding, kept bringing in food to the bitch, changed her water, monitored her and brought her out for toilet breaks (which was really difficult, she just didn't want to leave the pups), made sure the temperature was ok, I made sure all were feeding, particularly the runt who was half the size of his siblings, I checked their cord stumps, checked the health of the bitch, if I woke in the night I went in to check all was well etc, actually on the first night I dozed off on a sleeping bag beside her on the floor. If they were there for longer maybe I might have relaxed somewhat but my nerves were gone tending to them!

Maybe what you think of as the norm would be a very apprehensive situation for others. I know people that have lost every pup, or one pup. I do think it's a situation that needs constant monitoring, but maybe you've just been really lucky that none of your dogs have had any trouble. I know the people that reared the pups did have their lives on hold until they got rehomed, having six, pooing, peeing puppies run around your kitchen creating untold mess (and smells) tends to make you wary of leaving the house for fear of what you might come back to.

Rommie

How much did you say for vaccinating a pup Lemlin? Around here it's 45 per vaccination, not sure what parvo is at six weeks, but if the pups are coming fully vaccinated for 8 pups would be €720 alone without the microchipping

Lemlin

Rommie wrote: »

How much did you say for vaccinating a pup Lemlin? Around here it's 45 per vaccination, not sure what parvo is at six weeks, but if the pups are coming fully vaccinated for 8 pups would be €720 alone without the microchipping

Is that price though for a single pup? Vets charge less for a litter than someone coming with a single pup.

If that €45 was for a single pup it would include consult fee plus vaccination. The vaccination only costs a few euro.

From my local vet for a litter of pups:
Consult - €70 for a litter of pups no matter how many pups.
Vaccination - €10 per pup.
Microchip - €20 per pup.

So microchip and vaccination is €30 per pup plus the €70 consult charge. So 8 pups would be €70 plus €240 = €310.

Vet is €35 for a single pup then.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

The pups born in my place, were only here for 3 days. In those 3 days I barely slept and I don't think I left the house, even to go to the shops, for fear that something might happen, the bitch might roll over and smother a couple of the pups or something.

I paid very close attention to them, I changed bedding, kept bringing in food to the bitch, changed her water, monitored her and brought her out for toilet breaks (which was really difficult, she just didn't want to leave the pups), made sure the temperature was ok, I made sure all were feeding, particularly the runt who was half the size of his siblings, I checked their cord stumps, checked the health of the bitch, if I woke in the night I went in to check all was well etc, actually on the first night I dozed off on a sleeping bag beside her on the floor. If they were there for longer maybe I might have relaxed somewhat but my nerves were gone tending to them!

Maybe what you think of as the norm would be a very apprehensive situation for others. I know people that have lost every pup, or one pup. I do think it's a situation that needs constant monitoring, but maybe you've just been really lucky that none of your dogs have had any trouble. I know the people that reared the pups did have their lives on hold until they got rehomed, having six, pooing, peeing puppies run around your kitchen creating untold mess (and smells) tends to make you wary of leaving the house for fear of what you might come back to.

Tbh I would find what you describe hugely unnecessary and far from the norm. I've no doubt a bitch may smother a pup but I've never seen it myself or heard of it occurring.

There is alot of work towards the end of a litter, particularly after five weeks but in the initial 2 weeks there is very little. I would find what you describe for the initial 3 days above as hugely over the top. Would you expect most breeders to act like this? I know I certainly wouldn't.

Also, some people would not be on their own doing the job. The man I initially described had a wife and 3 children all teenagers so the work was all shared.

To be honest all the actions you describe above - changing bedding, feeding bitch, checking temp etc. - are not enough to occupy someone for three days and could be done every few hours.

Don't get me wrong, I've said before I'm against over breeding and backyard breeding but I have often heard people say before that there are those in breeding who try to justify the huge fees charged by clubs and the like for pups by overstating the work involved/expense in breeding and I do think its something occurs regularly on this forum.

The first port of call on here is always the breed club for general users asking about pups. However people are regularly pointed towards breed clubs that users have no knowledge of.

Two examples:

1. The man I talked about originally. His dog was just a pet bred off a champion stud and the breed club were pointing people towards him. They knew nothing about his dog.
2. I myself have been given breeder details by breed clubs for people who had no health checks done yet were charging high prices. One woman hadn't even shown her dog but had signed a contract when she bought her dog originally to confirm she would not sell pups for less than €600 as it would "devalue the line". She had never shown her own dog. When I talked to her about the price, she seemed quite embarrassed about it and informed me of the contract she had to sign and why the price was €600 despite her having no health checks on her dog and it never having been shown.

In the cases above, IMO the breed clubs should not have been giving these breeder's details out. I've had little interaction with breed clubs having never shown a dog and yet have seen these examples.

Is there any regulation whatsoever over these clubs?

borderlinemeath

Lemlin wrote: »

Tbh I would find what you describe hugely unnecessary and far from the norm. I've no doubt a bitch may smother a pup but I've never seen it myself or heard of it occurring.

There is alot of work towards the end of a litter, particularly after five weeks but in the initial 2 weeks there is very little. I would find what you describe for the initial 3 days above as hugely over the top. Would you expect most breeders to act like this? I know I certainly wouldn't.

Also, some people would not be on their own doing the job. The man I initially described had a wife and 3 children all teenagers so the work was all shared.

To be honest all the actions you describe above - changing bedding, feeding bitch, checking temp etc. - are not enough to occupy someone for three days and could be done every few hours.

Don't get me wrong, I've said before I'm against over breeding and backyard breeding but I have often heard people say before that there are those in breeding who try to justify the huge fees charged by clubs and the like for pups by overstating the work involved/expense in breeding and I do think its something occurs regularly on this forum.

But that's subjective, you take a hands off, minimal imput approach, and that is your idea of good breeding. I agree that the hard physical work is when the mother stops feeding, it's when it gets tough and messy but I find it harder to comprehend that you think other breeders are overstating the effort when it comes across that you have a "leave her to it, she'll be grand by herself" way of dealing with it.

For any good breeder I would imagine there's a great deal of apprehension and stress during whelping and the subsequent few weeks. The risk of losing your bitch, and/or the pups. Pups do die, off the top of my head I can think of 4 examples of people I know losing pups early on, through smothering, neglect by the bitch, runts dying, fading puppy syndrome, and I don't know a whole lot of breeders.

muddypaws

I know of a breeder in Ireland that has travelled to Scandanavia for a stud dog, and I also know that they always have a waiting list, will actually sell to very few people, and always keep at least one of the pups for themselves, usually more.

I also travel to the UK frequently on the ferry with my dogs, and have never got a crossing for €42, and I use Irish Ferries, so would love to know where you get your figures from Lemlin.

As Borderlinemeath says above, I don't agree with the 'leave her to it, she'll be grand' attitude. I guess it depends what circles you move in, as the breeders that I know are like Knine and jimf, so to me, that is the norm, and how it should be done.

snoman

I know nothing about breeding dogs so this may be a really stupid question. Are dogs always covered, or is artificial insemination ever used?

andreac

If i added up the money i spent on the Goats Milk alone that i fed to my pups over the 5/6 weeks then im sure it cost me an absolute fortune!! 1 Litre of Goats milk is 1.59 and i went through a lot of it for 7 Rottie pups.

I also spent the first 2 weeks of the pups lives on a fold up camp bed beside them in the kitchen. Apart from actual hard costs of equipment etc there is the other aspect of it, your time, your hard work and effort you put in too.

I also had to pay someone to call in to my pups everyday once i went back to work, 5 days a week for the 6 weeks. I gave her fuel money aswell so again thats another cost.

Not everyone can take 2 months off work to mind pups and i certainly couldnt leave mine at home by themselves all day as they had to be checked, fed etc.

Yes my life was on hold for 2 months as i had to be home everyday straight after work to mind the pups, have them fed, cleaned out, let outside etc. By the time all that was done the evening was as good as over.

I dont think you realise what raising a litter properly actually entails?

Yes, the first 2 weeks the eyes are closed, but thats the most important and dangerous time when pups can be squashed and killed by the mother rolling or sitting on them. That is why i spent 2 weeks down with them every night and thank god i did as several times i had to get up during the night as she was lying on one or two of them.

I know of many people who have lost pups due to the mother squashing them (Rotties) as its quite common so i wanted to make sure i did everything to prevent this from happening, so yes, the first 2 weeks are extremely important for supervising them with the mother and making sure they are all feeding and thriving.

I can go on and on as to the work and effort i put in to raising my litter but i wont as you dont want to seem to accept how much hard work, and time and money goes in to raising a litter properly.

andreac

snoman wrote: »

I know nothing about breeding dogs so this may be a really stupid question. Are dogs always covered, or is artificial insemination ever used?

A.I. is used regularly but cannot be done for the bitches first time mating unless special permission is given and you have a very valid reason for doing so.

snoman

andreac wrote: »

A.I. is used regularly but cannot be done for the bitches first time mating unless special permission is given and you have a very valid reason for doing so.

Oh, that's interesting. And why is it not done for the first mating?

andreac

snoman wrote: »

Oh, that's interesting. And why is it not done for the first mating?

Do you know, im not actually too sure why and what the reasons are

snoman

andreac wrote: »

Do you know, im not actually too sure why and what the reasons are

.... bet you wished I hadn't asked!! ; )

Knine

It is more difficult to use AI for a maiden bitch if she has not had a litter & less likely to have a successful outcome. If AI is used on a maiden bitch the resulting bitches must have a natural litter before AI was used with them.

Lemlin

muddypaws wrote: »

I know of a breeder in Ireland that has travelled to Scandanavia for a stud dog, and I also know that they always have a waiting list, will actually sell to very few people, and always keep at least one of the pups for themselves, usually more.

I also travel to the UK frequently on the ferry with my dogs, and have never got a crossing for €42, and I use Irish Ferries, so would love to know where you get your figures from Lemlin.

As Borderlinemeath says above, I don't agree with the 'leave her to it, she'll be grand' attitude. I guess it depends what circles you move in, as the breeders that I know are like Knine and jimf, so to me, that is the norm, and how it should be done.

As I've said, I know breeders myself who have gone as far as Russia for pups. My point is that not every breeder recommended by breed clubs is going to these lengths. That is the exception rather than the norm.

As for the ferry price, Irishferries.com. It advertises that they have prices from as low as £32 to Ireland. That's where I got the price.

As for the "depends what circles you move in", I'll take as a slight and dig. I don't know why when ever anyone on here questions the established opinion, terms like "backyward breeder" and "puppy farmer" are thrown about. Do you think everyone involved in a breed club is acting athically and that there are no people interested in making a quick buck? Given the problems we've had in this country through the boom with all sectors of the economy and clubs, associations etc.

I know plenty of people who go to extreme lengths with their dogs as I've said but I still feel that what seems to be presented as the norm for breeding on here is far from it.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

But that's subjective, you take a hands off, minimal imput approach, and that is your idea of good breeding. I agree that the hard physical work is when the mother stops feeding, it's when it gets tough and messy but I find it harder to comprehend that you think other breeders are overstating the effort when it comes across that you have a "leave her to it, she'll be grand by herself" way of dealing with it.

For any good breeder I would imagine there's a great deal of apprehension and stress during whelping and the subsequent few weeks. The risk of losing your bitch, and/or the pups. Pups do die, off the top of my head I can think of 4 examples of people I know losing pups early on, through smothering, neglect by the bitch, runts dying, fading puppy syndrome, and I don't know a whole lot of breeders.

I'm not referring to myself. I'm referring to breeders in general. I do not believe every single breeder involved in an IKC breed club goes to the lengths which are presented on here as the "norm". That is my point. Every time someone mentions breeding on here, they are given a hundred reasons not to and told about every bad case a poster can think of. The fact is the majority of births happen without problem and dogs certainly do not need two months of uninterrupted attention.

And I say this as someone who knows plenty of people involved in breed clubs and people with champion dogs.

As I've asked, is anyone regulating any of the breed clubs? I've constantly seen people pointed towards breed clubs on here and yet I can give examples of where breed clubs have acted unethically in my opinion.

We have large sums changing hands in the country and there is no regulation whatsoever. Imagine I want a direwolf pup. I go to the Direwolf association of Ireland. Ned Stark is the secretary. Ned has two pals, Robert Baratheon and Tywin Lannister. So Ned is telling me to go to Robert and Tywin that they have great pups. How am I to know any better? I think its a crazy system if you ask me. Yes, it has its advantages but it could also have huge disadvantages.

Say Ned's dog was the stud for some of the pups and he is interested in increasing demand for his own dog by showing his success as a stud. What's to stop Ned pointing me towards these pups?

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

If i added up the money i spent on the Goats Milk alone that i fed to my pups over the 5/6 weeks then im sure it cost me an absolute fortune!! 1 Litre of Goats milk is 1.59 and i went through a lot of it for 7 Rottie pups.

I also spent the first 2 weeks of the pups lives on a fold up camp bed beside them in the kitchen. Apart from actual hard costs of equipment etc there is the other aspect of it, your time, your hard work and effort you put in too.

I also had to pay someone to call in to my pups everyday once i went back to work, 5 days a week for the 6 weeks. I gave her fuel money aswell so again thats another cost.

Not everyone can take 2 months off work to mind pups and i certainly couldnt leave mine at home by themselves all day as they had to be checked, fed etc.

Yes my life was on hold for 2 months as i had to be home everyday straight after work to mind the pups, have them fed, cleaned out, let outside etc. By the time all that was done the evening was as good as over.

I dont think you realise what raising a litter properly actually entails?

Yes, the first 2 weeks the eyes are closed, but thats the most important and dangerous time when pups can be squashed and killed by the mother rolling or sitting on them. That is why i spent 2 weeks down with them every night and thank god i did as several times i had to get up during the night as she was lying on one or two of them.

I know of many people who have lost pups due to the mother squashing them (Rotties) as its quite common so i wanted to make sure i did everything to prevent this from happening, so yes, the first 2 weeks are extremely important for supervising them with the mother and making sure they are all feeding and thriving.

I can go on and on as to the work and effort i put in to raising my litter but i wont as you dont want to seem to accept how much hard work, and time and money goes in to raising a litter properly.

In fairness andreac a lot of people would have families or help. I can't comment on your own situation. Many people have families or kids that can help. That's the reality of the situation. I also had to go away for three days while I had my pups before. I have 3 brothers and a wife in a position to care for them though. The man I mentioned earlier had a wife and 3 teenage kids to help him.

To be honest I would take great offence to the line " I dont think you realise what raising a litter properly actually entails?". How can you make this judgement? Because I've said I don't believe someone needs to sleep next to their pups for 2 weeks on a fold up camp bed? I think you'll find the majority of breeders would not go to this extreme.

I can't comment on Rottweilers and squashing pups. I know nothing about the breed. The experience I have is with terriers and gundogs (Spaniels, Labradors) and I've said that before. I've often seen bitches roll onto a pup and the pup will yelp and the bitch will move.

I have no doubt you did put in hard work however my own opinion is that some of it was hugely unnecessary and my own opinion is that the majority of breeders are not going to such lengths. Again, I would have to agree with the opinion I've heard that a lot of these stories are from people who want to justify the huge prices they charge for pups.

It's interesting that none of ye replied regarding my posts on the breed clubs acting unethically above. Giving out details of pups they had no idea of and people signing contracts to protect high pricing. To be honest it's a problem on here. People just ignore the points that they don't want to address. You say I'm not interested in accepting your hard work, however it is users on here who aren't interested in my opinions because it doesn't paint the picture that they like to. I commend you for your hard work and I'm sure the pups you breed are a fine example of the breed.

andreac

But Lemlin, these are the things that breeders SHOULD be doing and its why a reputable breeder charge what they do for their pups, because they put in all the extra hard work and money, to raise their litter with every bit of care they can.

Thats why top notch puppies cost what they do because us reputable breeders go that extra mile to do what they can and dont care what costs are involved as they want their litter raised the best they can with money not being an issue and trying to cut corners here and there.

Back yard breeders will do the absolute minimum and will cut corners and costs, so they can make as much money as possible.

Im involved in showing and know a lot of breeders that do exactly what i did with my litter and some even more, if thats even possible. Why? because their aim is to produce the best puppies they can and put the best of everything in to them. Its what we do.

andreac

Im not sure what you mean by the breed clubs to be honest?

Im involved in the Rottweiler Club of Ireland and get the enquiries about people looking for pups etc. All i do is pass on details of all the breeders i know involved in Rotties and if there are any litters going at the time or if i know of any litters being planned.

I dont get any commission or anything from doing so. Im merely a go between, passing on information and details and that person then does all the work by contacting the breeders and finding out the information for themselves.

borderlinemeath

Lemlin wrote: »

I'm not referring to myself. I'm referring to breeders in general. I do not believe every single breeder involved in an IKC breed club goes to the lengths which are presented on here as the "norm". That is my point. Every time someone mentions breeding on here, they are given a hundred reasons not to and told about every bad case a poster can think of. The fact is the majority of births happen without problem and dogs certainly do not need two months of uninterrupted attention.

And I say this as someone who knows plenty of people involved in breed clubs and people with champion dogs.

There are a hundred reasons not to.
Almost every dog I've fostered here has been purebred. A couple were just used as puppy making machines. Pounds and rescues are full to bursting with dogs that people bought as cute puppies and didn't put enough research or thought in to the purchase and the impact it would have on their lives. It's actually coming up to the time of year when dogs bought as puppies are dumped because people haven't put training in, or the dog has got too big, or too rough with the kids (because they haven't put the training in), or it has chewed the house apart, or dug the garden up, or summer holidays are coming up and they don't want to pay for kenneling, the list goes on.

For every person that comes onto this forum and says they want to breed, how many have lined up a dozen properly researched buyers for their pups? Not many I would say. As per the last thread a couple of days ago, the majority of people looking for information on breeding have no idea about choosing a suitable mate, copulation/dogs tied, whelping, care of pups, they just wing it, as is evident from their queries on this forum! I know people have to start somewhere, but they need to have done SOME research, or spoken at length to an experienced breeder, so it's no wonder that they are put off the idea by people who have been through it and know how tough it can be.

And I would imagine full well that if there was trouble with a champion litter, it wouldn't come to light, people want to sell the pups and recoup their expenses, not let on that some of the litter didn't survive. Buyers might run a mile.

As I've asked, is anyone regulating any of the breed clubs? I've constantly seen people pointed towards breed clubs on here and yet I can give examples of where breed clubs have acted unethically in my opinion.

We have large sums changing hands in the country and there is no regulation whatsoever. Imagine I want a direwolf pup. I go to the Direwolf association of Ireland. Ned Stark is the secretary. Ned has two pals, Robert Baratheon and Tywin Lannister. So Ned is telling me to go to Robert and Tywin that they have great pups. How am I to know any better? I think its a crazy system if you ask me. Yes, it has its advantages but it could also have huge disadvantages.

Say Ned's dog was the stud for some of the pups and he is interested in increasing demand for his own dog by showing his success as a stud. What's to stop Ned pointing me towards these pups?

As is the case with everything you purchase. Sometimes the expert or the point of contact is the best person to purchase from. Why does that have to be a bad thing? As a consumer, you make up your own mind, try and find independent recommendations, easy enough to do in the show or gundog world I should think.

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

But Lemlin, these are the things that breeders SHOULD be doing and its why a reputable breeder charge what they do for their pups, because they put in all the extra hard work and money, to raise their litter with every bit of care they can.

Thats why top notch puppies cost what they do because us reputable breeders go that extra mile to do what they can and dont care what costs are involved as they want their litter raised the best they can with money not being an issue and trying to cut corners here and there.

Back yard breeders will do the absolute minimum and will cut corners and costs, so they can make as much money as possible.

Im involved in showing and know a lot of breeders that do exactly what i did with my litter and some even more, if thats even possible. Why? because their aim is to produce the best puppies they can and put the best of everything in to them. Its what we do.

Two simple question -
1. Would you believe every breeder involved in the club you are involved in goes to these lengths?
2. Would you trust every person involved in the club to act honestly and always with fairness?

andreac wrote: »

Im not sure what you mean by the breed clubs to be honest?

Im involved in the Rottweiler Club of Ireland and get the enquiries about people looking for pups etc. All i do is pass on details of all the breeders i know involved in Rotties and if there are any litters going at the time or if i know of any litters being planned.

I dont get any commission or anything from doing so. Im merely a go between, passing on information and details and that person then does all the work by contacting the breeders and finding out the information for themselves.

I am talking about breed specific dog clubs. There are tens if not hundreds in Ireland, one for each breed.

That is the system I am talking about. People are contacting you about pups and you give them the details of other people you know who have pups. Do you not think there is room within this framework for people to act unethically like I have said above? I am not in any way casting any aspersion on you or your club but I am saying it is a possibility yet rarely do we see it mentioned.

I'd also point to the examples I have already given of other clubs not acting as ethically as you do. Clubs giving out details about pups they know nothing of.

My point is regularly we point people towards breed clubs on this forum but I rarely ever see anyone say "start with the breed club but remember to keep your options open" or "contact the breed club but remember to ask the relevant questions".

Lemlin

borderlinemeath wrote: »

There are a hundred reasons not to.
Almost every dog I've fostered here has been purebred. A couple were just used as puppy making machines. Pounds and rescues are full to bursting with dogs that people bought as cute puppies and didn't put enough research or thought in to the purchase and the impact it would have on their lives. It's actually coming up to the time of year when dogs bought as puppies are dumped because people haven't put training in, or the dog has got too big, or too rough with the kids (because they haven't put the training in), or it has chewed the house apart, or dug the garden up, or summer holidays are coming up and they don't want to pay for kenneling, the list goes on.

For every person that comes onto this forum and says they want to breed, how many have lined up a dozen properly researched buyers for their pups? Not many I would say. As per the last thread a couple of days ago, the majority of people looking for information on breeding have no idea about choosing a suitable mate, copulation/dogs tied, whelping, care of pups, they just wing it, as is evident from their queries on this forum! I know people have to start somewhere, but they need to have done SOME research, or spoken at length to an experienced breeder, so it's no wonder that they are put off the idea by people who have been through it and know how tough it can be.

And I would imagine full well that if there was trouble with a champion litter, it wouldn't come to light, people want to sell the pups and recoup their expenses, not let on that some of the litter didn't survive. Buyers might run a mile.


As is the case with everything you purchase. Sometimes the expert or the point of contact is the best person to purchase from. Why does that have to be a bad thing? As a consumer, you make up your own mind, try and find independent recommendations, easy enough to do in the show or gundog world I should think.

I fully agree people regularly come on here that shouldn't be breeding or even thinking of it. I also agree that there are far too many unwanted pups in the country. Its about time we got some proper legislation. My point is that, in my opinion, a totally incorrect view of breeding is often given on here and, for me at least, it is often given by people who support this industry of charging high prices for pups.

I've heard people on here before say from a litter that you might only get one pup suitable for showing that they would keep themselves. So why is it acceptable then to charge €650 to people for what are inferior pups? Why is it acceptable to charge €650 to someone who will never show their dog or has no interest in showing it? You're charging a show price for a pet dog.

My point re the breed clubs is exactly what I say above. We live in a country where the recent boom has uncovered plenty of unethical actions in various industries and clubs and associations. Breed clubs are not regulated in any way. Staff here in the company I work in complete a fitness and probity form each year. We have to answer questions like whether we are the director of any company involved with our own etc. to make sure we have no vested interests. Is there any regulation like this for breed clubs? Who is checking that the secretaries and other board members are fit for their roles? These are breed clubs that every day of the week are pointing people towards people that are often friends to buy pups for vast amounts of money. That is my point.

There should be some form of regulation introduced somewhere. In my experience not all of the individuals involved in these clubs are as trustworthy as the posters on here.

andreac

Lemlin wrote: »

Two simple question -
1. Would you believe every breeder involved in the club you are involved in goes to these lengths?
2. Would you trust every person involved in the club to act honestly and always with fairness?



I am talking about breed specific dog clubs. There are tens if not hundreds in Ireland, one for each breed.

That is the system I am talking about. People are contacting you about pups and you give them the details of other people you know who have pups. Do you not think there is room within this framework for people to act unethically like I have said above? I am not in any way casting any aspersion on you or your club but I am saying it is a possibility yet rarely do we see it mentioned.

I'd also point to the examples I have already given of other clubs not acting as ethically as you do. Clubs giving out details about pups they know nothing of.

My point is regularly we point people towards breed clubs on this forum but I rarely ever see anyone say "start with the breed club but remember to keep your options open" or "contact the breed club but remember to ask the relevant questions".

To answer your questions, yes, every breeder i know involved in our club would go to those lengths with their litters as they are reputable.
Secondly, yes i trust all of the people that are involed in our club and who i recommend. I am on the committee of the RCOI so its in our best interest to ensure that we are only recommending trustworthy breeders and ensure puppies are well bred and good homes are found for them.

I dont know why you keep thinking breeders are trying to be unethical? Its up the people looking for pups to do their homework on the breeders they are in touch with and try and arm themselves with as much knowledge as possible.

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

To answer your questions, yes, every breeder i know involved in our club would go to those lengths with their litters as they are reputable.
Secondly, yes i trust all of the people that are involed in our club and who i recommend. I am on the committee of the RCOI so its in our best interest to ensure that we are only recommending trustworthy breeders and ensure puppies are well bred and good homes are found for them.

I dont know why you keep thinking breeders are trying to be unethical? Its up the people looking for pups to do their homework on the breeders they are in touch with and try and arm themselves with as much knowledge as possible.

So, let's get this straight, when someone contacts you about a pup, you are often pointing them in the direction of a friend? Do you not see my point that there is a huge risk of people acting unethically in this system?

As I've said, fraud has been proven to have been occuring in many areas of this country and industries yet you honestly believe it hasn't filtered through to a profitable, unregulated industry like breed clubs?

I keep thinking breeders can be unethical because I have examples of it. I'll give them again:

Two examples:

1. The man I talked about originally. His dog was just a pet bred off a champion stud and the breed club were pointing people towards him. They knew nothing about his dog. All they knew was about the stud dog. They aided him in charging €650 for pups from a pet dog. People contacted him on their recommendation.
2. I myself have been given breeder details by breed clubs for people who had no health checks done yet were charging high prices. One woman hadn't even shown her dog but had signed a contract when she bought her dog originally to confirm she would not sell pups for less than €600 as it would "devalue the line". She had never shown her own dog. When I talked to her about the price, she seemed quite embarrassed about it and informed me of the contract she had to sign and why the price was €600 despite her having no health checks on her dog and it never having been shown.

Do you think these instances above are ethical of the two different clubs in question?

jimf

Lemlin wrote: »

So, let's get this straight, when someone contacts you about a pup, you are often pointing them in the direction of a friend? Do you not see my point that there is a huge risk of people acting unethically in this system?

As I've said, fraud has been proven to have been occuring in many areas of this country and industries yet you honestly believe it hasn't filtered through to a profitable, unregulated industry like breed clubs?

I keep thinking breeders can be unethical because I have examples of it. I'll give them again:

Two examples:

1. The man I talked about originally. His dog was just a pet bred off a champion stud and the breed club were pointing people towards him. They knew nothing about his dog. All they knew was about the stud dog. They aided him in charging €650 for pups from a pet dog. People contacted him on their recommendation.
2. I myself have been given breeder details by breed clubs for people who had no health checks done yet were charging high prices. One woman hadn't even shown her dog but had signed a contract when she bought her dog originally to confirm she would not sell pups for less than €600 as it would "devalue the line". She had never shown her own dog. When I talked to her about the price, she seemed quite embarrassed about it and informed me of the contract she had to sign and why the price was €600 despite her having no health checks on her dog and it never having been shown.

Do you think these instances above are ethical of the two different clubs in question?

would I be right in saying you have had a bad experience with some 1 of these organisations over the years as you seem to have a chip on your shoulder maybe even the whole bag of spuds

Lemlin

jimf wrote: »

would I be right in saying you have had a bad experience with some 1 of these organisations over the years as you seem to have a chip on your shoulder maybe even the whole bag of spuds

To be honest you'd be wrong. I've had limited interaction with clubs. I know plenty of members of clubs but I've never been interested in joining one myself. Perhaps when I get a bit older but I wouldn't have the time at present. I do find the whole system amazing though and I do have an issue with the fact that anytime anyone on here mentions looking for a pup, they are pointed towards the breed club and no disclaimer is given as to what they should be looking for. As I've asked, who is regulating the breed clubs? What's to say that breed club aren't pointing them in the wrong direction or acting unethically?

In my own experience of looking for a pup recently the breed club was no help. I've said that before. I've also seen others say it on here and I was amazed recently by what this man told me - that a breed club would recommend his pups and aid him in selling pups for €650 that they knew nothing about. This to me is hugely unethical.

The fact is I'm asking questions that people here obviously don't want to answer. Casting aspersions against my character is not going to make the points I am raising go away. Despite the "let's stick our head in the sand and ignore the problem" mentality a lot of posters are displaying.

If you think my post is unfair, attack the post. Comment on it and the points I've raised, not on me.

The interesting thing is I've mentioned two examples several times and at no point have any of the posters on here arguing with me said that they cannot imagine that happening or believe that it is untrue. They've just ignored the two examples, in my opinion, because they know things like this are happening in breed clubs.

snoman

As a complete outsider it seems to me that what breeding to standard has done is create a fairly rarified market. And the laws of supply and demand dictate that high end, good quality stock is harder to source than badly produced knock offs. And because there is no regulation, and no overall industry wide enthusiasism to create it, this situation will continue.

andreac

Lemlin wrote: »

To be honest you'd be wrong. I've had limited interaction with clubs. I know plenty of members of clubs but I've never been interested in joining one myself. Perhaps when I get a bit older but I wouldn't have the time at present. I do find the whole system amazing though and I do have an issue with the fact that anytime anyone on here mentions looking for a pup, they are pointed towards the breed club and no disclaimer is given as to what they should be looking for. As I've asked, who is regulating the breed clubs? What's to say that breed club aren't pointing them in the wrong direction or acting unethically?

In my own experience of looking for a pup recently the breed club was no help. I've said that before. I've also seen others say it on here and I was amazed recently by what this man told me - that a breed club would recommend his pups and aid him in selling pups for €650 that they knew nothing about. This to me is hugely unethical.

The fact is I'm asking questions that people here obviously don't want to answer. Casting aspersions against my character is not going to make the points I am raising go away. Despite the "let's stick our head in the sand and ignore the problem" mentality a lot of posters are displaying.

If you think my post is unfair, attack the post. Comment on it and the points I've raised, not on me.

The interesting thing is I've mentioned two examples several times and at no point have any of the posters on here arguing with me said that they cannot imagine that happening or believe that it is untrue. They've just ignored the two examples, in my opinion, because they know things like this are happening in breed clubs.

We are answering your questions?? Not sure why you are saying we arent.

That one you mention about the club recommending the dog they know nothing about. But they do know something about it. The person with the stud dog knows about the bitch and obv was happy for their dog to let them use their dog, so how is that not knowing about the bitch?? Im lost?

jimf

apoligies lemlin if you think my post was an attack on your character it would not be intended that way

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

We are answering your posts Lemlin??

Unanswered questions from previous posts:

As I've asked, is anyone regulating any of the breed clubs? I've constantly seen people pointed towards breed clubs on here and yet I can give examples of where breed clubs have acted unethically in my opinion.

We have large sums changing hands in the country and there is no regulation whatsoever. Imagine I want a direwolf pup. I go to the Direwolf association of Ireland. Ned Stark is the secretary. Ned has two pals, Robert Baratheon and Tywin Lannister. So Ned is telling me to go to Robert and Tywin that they have great pups. How am I to know any better? I think its a crazy system if you ask me. Yes, it has its advantages but it could also have huge disadvantages.

Say Ned's dog was the stud for some of the pups and he is interested in increasing demand for his own dog by showing his success as a stud. What's to stop Ned pointing me towards these pups?

To be honest I would take great offence to the line " I dont think you realise what raising a litter properly actually entails?". How can you make this judgement? Because I've said I don't believe someone needs to sleep next to their pups for 2 weeks on a fold up camp bed? I think you'll find the majority of breeders would not go to this extreme.

That is the system I am talking about. People are contacting you about pups and you give them the details of other people you know who have pups. Do you not think there is room within this framework for people to act unethically like I have said above? I am not in any way casting any aspersion on you or your club but I am saying it is a possibility yet rarely do we see it mentioned.

My point re the breed clubs is exactly what I say above. We live in a country where the recent boom has uncovered plenty of unethical actions in various industries and clubs and associations. Breed clubs are not regulated in any way. Staff here in the company I work in complete a fitness and probity form each year. We have to answer questions like whether we are the director of any company involved with our own etc. to make sure we have no vested interests. Is there any regulation like this for breed clubs? Who is checking that the secretaries and other board members are fit for their roles? These are breed clubs that every day of the week are pointing people towards people that are often friends to buy pups for vast amounts of money. That is my point.

As I've said, fraud has been proven to have been occuring in many areas of this country and industries yet you honestly believe it hasn't filtered through to a profitable, unregulated industry like breed clubs?
I keep thinking breeders can be unethical because I have examples of it. I'll give them again:

Two examples:

1. The man I talked about originally. His dog was just a pet bred off a champion stud and the breed club were pointing people towards him. They knew nothing about his dog. All they knew was about the stud dog. They aided him in charging €650 for pups from a pet dog. People contacted him on their recommendation.
2. I myself have been given breeder details by breed clubs for people who had no health checks done yet were charging high prices. One woman hadn't even shown her dog but had signed a contract when she bought her dog originally to confirm she would not sell pups for less than €600 as it would "devalue the line". She had never shown her own dog. When I talked to her about the price, she seemed quite embarrassed about it and informed me of the contract she had to sign and why the price was €600 despite her having no health checks on her dog and it never having been shown.

Do you think these instances above are ethical of the two different clubs in question?

Of course I'm not qualified to say my dog is top notch. I've never shown a dog in my life. My dogs are gundogs and pets. People looking for pups are pointed towards breed clubs on here alot. Is every pup suggested by a breed club a champion dog? That has proved it's lineage? Certainly not in my experience.

As for the "depends what circles you move in", I'll take as a slight and dig. I don't know why when ever anyone on here questions the established opinion, terms like "backyward breeder" and "puppy farmer" are thrown about. Do you think everyone involved in a breed club is acting ethically and that there are no people interested in making a quick buck? Given the problems we've had in this country through the boom with all sectors of the economy and clubs, associations etc.

Lemlin

jimf wrote: »

apoligies lemlin if you think my post was an attack on your character it would not be intended that way

How would it be seen as any other way? You've ignored all of my posts and questions and commented on my personal experience and put my opinion down to "ah well, someone must have annoyed him at some stage".

If I'm not raising valid points, then attack the points and show how ridiculous they are if that's your opinion.

I've done my research though and talked to plenty of people and I assure you the points I am raising are valid. Which is why those in support of breed clubs continue to ignore them.

If anything else, I'm happy to have this thread here for people to read when they are told to start their search for a new pup with the breed club. It is very much "buyer beware" with some clubs. Not all of course.

jimf

Lemlin wrote: »

How would it be seen as any other way? You've ignored all of my posts and questions and commented on my personal experience and put my opinion down to "ah well, someone must of annoyed him at some stage".

If I'm not raising valid points, then attack the points and show how ridiculous they are if that's your opinion.

I've done my research though and talked to plenty of people and I assure you the points I am raising are valid. Which is why those in support of breed clubs continue to ignore them.

I don't have the answers how would you propose these clubs be monitored