Dog breeding.

Mark Tapley

There are many comments in the forum about dog breeding and they all seem to relate to pedigree dogs. I was wondering where people think crossbreeds fit in . I like all dogs but have a soft spot for crossbreeds . It seems that with pedigree dogs people can check ancestry and health issues. With dogs such as my own a rescue crossbreed only time will tell as regards health.
My point is that while I think breeding should be done by responsible breeders I would hate to see a world just made up of recognised breeds. I know it is an unlikely scenario that everyone would become sensible about breeding all of a sudden. I should say my dog lovely as she is, is neutered.

AnScamall

I have a lovely pup who is a cross between a samoyed and a Siberian husky. She is beautiful and a lovely mix, great personality and temperament ... We have always have cross breed dogs - my last was a lurcher border collie mix!

DBB

It's an interesting question, isn't it?
you're right in saying that it'll never happen that crossbreeds and scruffs will disappear, although having said that there is (or used to be) a huge demand for scruffs in parts of the UK where they were in very short supply. We shipped them over by the vanload in the past 12 years or so, so much so that we've probably soiled our bib with many a UK rescue group. But that's for another thread!
As for pedigree vs crossbreed or scruffs, well, I think one of the things it boils down to is the attitude of the owner. Some people really want to maximise the chances that they'll know what they're getting, behaviourally, health-wise, personality-wise. Whereas others aren't really all that bothered... any dog is just fine. And then there are people of both persuasions
So, when you're adopting a scruff, part and parcel of that is the not knowing, the not being able to predict the above parameters... and for some people, not only is that fine by them, they actually rather like the lack of provenance :pac:
In a good few cases, you can take a pretty good guess as to what mix of dogs make up your own scruff... your own lady is a case in point. I also have a wee scruffer that is probably the offspring of two purebred dogs (Cocker x Shih Tsu... I have her since wayyy before the designer crossbreed fashion we're going through at the moment!), and I love to see the influence both parents have on her behaviour, and her habits, and the funny things she does. I can only imagine your dog gives you plenty of pause for thought as you notice some Husky-type behaviours, and some lurchery/sighthoundy behaviours?
So yes, pros and cons to both, depending on what floats your boat!

Mark Tapley

AnScamall wrote: »

I have a lovely pup who is a cross between a samoyed and a Siberian husky. She is beautiful and a lovely mix, great personality and temperament ... We have always have cross breed dogs - my last was a lurcher border collie mix!

My dog Skye is husky lurcher cross. She has a great temperament too . She reminds me of that bloke from the Fast Show who thinks everything is brilliant.

Mark Tapley

DBB wrote: »

It's an interesting question, isn't it?
you're right in saying that it'll never happen that crossbreeds and scruffs will disappear, although having said that there is (or used to be) a huge demand for scruffs in parts of the UK where they were in very short supply. We shipped them over by the vanload in the past 12 years or so, so much so that we've probably soiled our bib with many a UK rescue group. But that's for another thread!
As for pedigree vs crossbreed or scruffs, well, I think one of the things it boils down to is the attitude of the owner. Some people really want to maximise the chances that they'll know what they're getting, behaviourally, health-wise, personality-wise. Whereas others aren't really all that bothered... any dog is just fine. And then there are people of both persuasions
So, when you're adopting a scruff, part and parcel of that is the not knowing, the not being able to predict the above parameters... and for some people, not only is that fine by them, they actually rather like the lack of provenance :pac:
In a good few cases, you can take a pretty good guess as to what mix of dogs make up your own scruff... your own lady is a case in point. I also have a wee scruffer that is probably the offspring of two purebred dogs (Cocker x Shih Tsu... I have her since wayyy before the designer crossbreed fashion we're going through at the moment!), and I love to see the influence both parents have on her behaviour, and her habits, and the funny things she does. I can only imagine your dog gives you plenty of pause for thought as you notice some Husky-type behaviours, and some lurchery/sighthoundy behaviours?
So yes, pros and cons to both, depending on what floats your boat!

Vive la difference between dogs and people. Although I am biased towards crossbreeds it seems that the preparations needed to get a pedigree dog would weed out people who haven't really thought about what dog ownership means.
You are right about Skye's behaviours I find them endlessly fascinating and bore people to tears with tales of what she's been up to. I've never had a dog that "talks" so much. I have had to put some rings on her collar to warn the birds of her approach.

AnScamall

I like the idea of rings on the collar to warn birds .. Mine is such a hunter and spends ages hunting the birds in the garden

jimf

Mark Tapley wrote: »

Vive la difference between dogs and people. Although I am biased towards crossbreeds it seems that the preparations needed to get a pedigree dog would weed out people who haven't really thought about what dog ownership means.
You are right about Skye's behaviours I find them endlessly fascinating and bore people to tears with tales of what she's been up to. I've never had a dog that "talks" so much. I have had to put some rings on her collar to warn the birds of her approach.

things about dogs never cease to amaze me your mention of birds reminded me of a dog we had years ago he was a cross between a collie/red setter/cat
he kept bringing back young birds alive unharmed in his mouth we always wondered where he got them so decided to watch him closely its only then we realised he could climb a tree/hedge as good as any cat

cocker5

IMO all dogs are pretty special… pure breeds, cross breeds, big small etc. and yes you are correct it would be a miserable world if all dogs were pure pedigree etc.

I think for me, these reason I always suggest that breeding be kept with the professionals isn’t so much to do with health checks (although I do understand they are very important), lots of dogs are bred with no health checks and many grow on the be very healthy and live a long, happy life.
For me it’s more about trying to prevent the unwanted dogs / puppies, trying to reduce the amount of dogs PTS each year through no fault of their own. Backyard breeders (yesterday’s thread is prime example) bred their dogs, sell them usually for a quick euro, to any stranger, don’t do follow ups, etc… responsible breeders (99%) will take a pup / dog back if the owners can no longer care for the dog, backyard breeders don’t do this etc.

For me it’s less to do with keeping dogs a pure breed and more to do with what’s happens to all these amazing pups born (they didn’t ask to be born) – Im not too sure why but in Ireland, many people have a disposable attitude to animals in general and all these dogs / puppies from backyard breeders, puppy farms where do they end up? the rescues centre and rammed…. as are the pounds… yet the puppy farm website like done deal etc. are stull churning out masses of puppies…. where will it all end?

Possibly strict regulation on dog breeding (i.e. requiring a licence – which would be difficult to get etc.) – fact is we need to reduce the amounts of puppies we are churning out so we can help the ones already living through the Irish disposable attitude.

That’s just my opinion anyway

jimf

imho if you were to describe yourself as a responsible dog breeder you should not be able to make money/living from it

anytime I have bred my springers i think I was lucky if I broke even

Mark Tapley

jimf wrote: »

imho if you were to describe yourself as a responsible dog breeder you should not be able to make money/living from it

anytime I have bred my springers i think I was lucky if I broke even

Do you think if it was illegal to buy and sell dogs that this might help? If you got a pedigree dog you would pay the breeders expenses .The same applying to a pound dog where you pay a neutering, microchiping ,care fee.

Mark Tapley

cocker5 wrote: »

IMO all dogs are pretty special… pure breeds, cross breeds, big small etc. and yes you are correct it would be a miserable world if all dogs were pure pedigree etc.

I think for me, these reason I always suggest that breeding be kept with the professionals isn’t so much to do with health checks (although I do understand they are very important), lots of dogs are bred with no health checks and many grow on the be very healthy and live a long, happy life.
For me it’s more about trying to prevent the unwanted dogs / puppies, trying to reduce the amount of dogs PTS each year through no fault of their own. Backyard breeders (yesterday’s thread is prime example) bred their dogs, sell them usually for a quick euro, to any stranger, don’t do follow ups, etc… responsible breeders (99%) will take a pup / dog back if the owners can no longer care for the dog, backyard breeders don’t do this etc.

For me it’s less to do with keeping dogs a pure breed and more to do with what’s happens to all these amazing pups born (they didn’t ask to be born) – Im not too sure why but in Ireland, many people have a disposable attitude to animals in general and all these dogs / puppies from backyard breeders, puppy farms where do they end up? the rescues centre and rammed…. as are the pounds… yet the puppy farm website like done deal etc. are stull churning out masses of puppies…. where will it all end?

Possibly strict regulation on dog breeding (i.e. requiring a licence – which would be difficult to get etc.) – fact is we need to reduce the amounts of puppies we are churning out so we can help the ones already living through the Irish disposable attitude.

That’s just my opinion anyway

I like to think people's attitude to dogs is changing. Too slowly for many dogs. My Dad who grew up in rural Ireland didn't really see the point of dogs as pets. When he was young they were there to work. Now days my dog follows him around when he's doing a bit of gardening and he chats away to her.
I see your point about responsible breeders and after care and some recues do home visits and checks

Mark Tapley

Has an anybody got any thoughts on my OP ? I don't want to offend anyone but I'm getting déjà vu on the do breeders make money or not.

Knine

Mark Tapley wrote: »

Has an anybody got any thoughts on my OP ? I don't want to offend anyone but I'm getting déjà vu on the do breeders make money or not.

Sorry you are right.

Your original post brought up a very good point. I have noticed when I have been away in the likes of France & did not see many wandering dogs (at least in Paris) that all the dogs I seen were purebred. What I would hate to see is a world full of these deliberate crosdbreeds though.

I have had a great deal of dogs & personality wise the pure breeds are just as much fun. You tend to get out of a dog what you put into it. Health wise there have been no major differences either. I will say I had a lovely crossbreed die of heart failure at just 2. Health issues in non pedigree dogs don't tend to be documented.

Mark Tapley

Knine wrote: »

Sorry you are right.

Your original post brought up a very good point. I have noticed when I have been away in the likes of France & did not see many wandering dogs (at least in Paris) that all the dogs I seen were purebred. What I would hate to see is a world full of these deliberate crosdbreeds though.

I have had a great deal of dogs & personality wise the pure breeds are just as much fun. You tend to get out of a dog what you put into it. Health wise there have been no major differences either. I will say I had a lovely crossbreed die of heart failure at just 2. Health issues in non pedigree dogs don't tend to be documented.

I think the deliberate crossbreeds are part of the fashionable dog problem. Some people seem to want a fashion accessory rather than a pet. I know Huskys are great looking dogs but judging by the amount looking to be rehomed a lot of people can't cope with them.
I'm interested in whether pedigree breeders can avoid heath problems with dogs and to what extent they think their chances are better than a cross.
Most people want a pet rather than a working dog with specific traits. Is there any reason to get a pedigree dog other than a preference for a breed.

Knine

Mark Tapley wrote: »

I think the deliberate crossbreeds are part of the fashionable dog problem. Some people seem to want a fashion accessory rather than a pet. I know Huskys are great looking dogs but judging by the amount looking to be rehomed a lot of people can't cope with them.
I'm interested in whether pedigree breeders can avoid heath problems with dogs and to what extent they think their chances are better than a cross.
Most people want a pet rather than a working dog with specific traits. Is there any reason to get a pedigree dog other than a preference for a breed.

Another reason to get a pedigree dog would be if you had a hobby such as showing or certain breeds are very good at working trials or obedience. This is especially true if you want to compete at the highest level.

Some dogs sports such as agility however crossbreeds can hold their own!

DBB

Okay all,
No more arguing/debating about breeding on this thread please. It's gone way off topic despite the OP trying to get it back on track.
On-topic posts from this point on only please, if you want to debate about the costs of breeding any further, please start a new thread.
Thanks,
DBB

Edited to add: the posts this warning alludes to have been split away into a new thread.

Pretzill

I think if the dog had his or her way they would always be a crossbreed - they would choose their preferred mate to produce their best progeny. Afterall regardless of human intervention - ( and breed specifics have become narrow on oneside of the scale and debillitating for the dog on the otherside) but the dog is one species - I reckon if allowed they'd be as diverse looking as us.

muddypaws

Pretzill wrote: »

I think if the dog had his or her way they would always be a crossbreed - they would choose their preferred mate to produce their best progeny. Afterall regardless of human intervention - ( and breed specifics have become narrow on oneside of the scale and debillitating for the dog on the otherside) but the dog is one species - I reckon if allowed they'd be as diverse looking as us.

I'm not sure about the last bit, village dogs around the world tend to look pretty similar, apart from differences in coat, which would be accounted for by climate. Would be interesting though, to see if dogs were just left to their own devices, whether there would be different shapes or sizes, or if particular look would come to the fore.

Lemlin

Mark Tapley wrote: »

There are many comments in the forum about dog breeding and they all seem to relate to pedigree dogs. I was wondering where people think crossbreeds fit in . I like all dogs but have a soft spot for crossbreeds . It seems that with pedigree dogs people can check ancestry and health issues. With dogs such as my own a rescue crossbreed only time will tell as regards health.
My point is that while I think breeding should be done by responsible breeders I would hate to see a world just made up of recognised breeds. I know it is an unlikely scenario that everyone would become sensible about breeding all of a sudden. I should say my dog lovely as she is, is neutered.

I'm not into them myself but there is now a huge market for so-called 'designer' cross breeds.

A "Cavchon" is a favourite amongst alot of girls I know. Often the price is €300 to €400.

A Jug is another favourite and crossbred Pugs are quite popular because of the high cost of the Pug breed. I know a person with a crossbreed Pug and, other than the colouring, to the naked eye, you would think it is a pure breed. It's a gorgeous dog and cost her €300, a fraction of the cost of a purebred Pug.

That said, I know another person with a crossbred Pug which is far more Jack Russell than Pug and has most of the traits of a terrier. That is the risk you take with a crossbreed though.

Mark Tapley

Lemlin wrote: »

I'm not into them myself but there is now a huge market for so-called 'designer' cross breeds.

A "Cavchon" is a favourite amongst alot of girls I know. Often the price is €300 to €400.

A Jug is another favourite and crossbred Pugs are quite popular because of the high cost of the Pug breed. I know a person with a crossbreed Pug and, other than the colouring, to the naked eye, you would think it is a pure breed. It's a gorgeous dog and cost her €300, a fraction of the cost of a purebred Pug.

That said, I know another person with a crossbred Pug which is far more Jack Russell than Pug and has most of the traits of a terrier. That is the risk you take with a crossbreed though.

The idea of designer dogs is another thing all together. I was trying to think why the idea gets my back up a bit. I think it is because people seem to want a novelty dog. Also another way for unscrupulous people to make money out of dogs . To me all dogs are of equal worth be they pedigree or Heinz 57.

Lemlin

Mark Tapley wrote: »

The idea of designer dogs is another thing all together. I was trying to think why the idea gets my back up a bit. I think it is because people seem to want a novelty dog. Also another way for unscrupulous people to make money out of dogs . To me all dogs are of equal worth be they pedigree or Heinz 57.

I think the reasons are varied as I said above. You'd have people who want Cavchons because they look cute.

Then you'd have your people who buy a Jug or the like because they can't afford €800 to €1200 for the purebred Pug.

Mark Tapley

Lemlin wrote: »

I think the reasons are varied as I said above. You'd have people who want Cavchons because they look cute.

Then you'd have your people who buy a Jug or the like because they can't afford €800 to €1200 for the purebred Pug.

I really can't get my head around the whole pedigree/purebred thing . To me a dog is a dog .
Lots of dogs look cute why help create a market for specific cute.

cocker5

Mark Tapley wrote: »

I really can't get my head around the whole pedigree/purebred thing . To me a dog is a dog .
Lots of dogs look cute why help create a market for specific cute.

While I totally agree a dog is a dog… regardless of being a cross / pure breed etc., I think many dogs who are pure bred may be purchased for theirs “traits” if that’s makes sense…

My cocker, who is pure breed has 99% of the cocker traits… he’s very soft, excitable, fun loving, he wants (needs) to be with us at all times, he’s not great when left alone,
so when reading the “traits” he actually seems like a pretty normal cocker…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Cocker_Spaniel


Temperament


Cockers are athletic, alert and make great family pets.




Cockers are compassionate, determined, kind, intelligent, athletic, alert and resilient and make great family pets.[16] The breed does not like being alone,[17] and will bond strongly to an individual person in a family, usually the one who feeds it. Known for optimism, intelligence and adaptability, the breed is extremely loyal and affectionate. The English Cocker Spaniel has a cheerful nature. They rank 18th in Stanley Coren's The Intelligence of Dogs, being of excellent working/obedience intelligence.[18] Due to the breed's happy disposition and continuously wagging tail, it has been given the nickname "merry cocker".[19] They can also be dominant but loyal to their companion.
With a good level of socialisation at an early age, Cocker Spaniels can get well along with people, children, other dogs and other pets.[20] This breed seems to have a perpetually wagging tail and prefers to be around people; it is not best suited to the backyard alone. Cockers can be easily stressed by loud noises and by rough treatment or handling. When trained with a soft hand and with lots of rewards, the Cocker Spaniel will be an obedient and loving companion with a happy, cheerful nature.[21]

But I suppose the same can be said for many dogs but IMO he’s pretty much a cocker to a “T”, if that’s makes sense.

I have had other dogs in my life while growing up, all amazing’s dogs but quiet different form my cocker.. again they too have similar “characteristics” renowned for their specific breed.

Although breeding does NOT dictate a dogs personality in my experience some of the time it will influence – that’s all.

Mark Tapley

cocker5 wrote: »

While I totally agree a dog is a dog… regardless of being a cross / pure breed etc., I think many dogs who are pure bred may be purchased for theirs “traits” if that’s makes sense…

My cocker, who is pure breed has 99% of the cocker traits… he’s very soft, excitable, fun loving, he wants (needs) to be with us at all times, he’s not great when left alone,
so when reading the “traits” he actually seems like a pretty normal cocker…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Cocker_Spaniel


Temperament


Cockers are athletic, alert and make great family pets.




Cockers are compassionate, determined, kind, intelligent, athletic, alert and resilient and make great family pets.[16] The breed does not like being alone,[17] and will bond strongly to an individual person in a family, usually the one who feeds it. Known for optimism, intelligence and adaptability, the breed is extremely loyal and affectionate. The English Cocker Spaniel has a cheerful nature. They rank 18th in Stanley Coren's The Intelligence of Dogs, being of excellent working/obedience intelligence.[18] Due to the breed's happy disposition and continuously wagging tail, it has been given the nickname "merry cocker".[19] They can also be dominant but loyal to their companion.
With a good level of socialisation at an early age, Cocker Spaniels can get well along with people, children, other dogs and other pets.[20] This breed seems to have a perpetually wagging tail and prefers to be around people; it is not best suited to the backyard alone. Cockers can be easily stressed by loud noises and by rough treatment or handling. When trained with a soft hand and with lots of rewards, the Cocker Spaniel will be an obedient and loving companion with a happy, cheerful nature.[21]

But I suppose the same can be said for many dogs but IMO he’s pretty much a cocker to a “T”, if that’s makes sense.

I have had other dogs in my life while growing up, all amazing’s dogs but quiet different form my cocker.. again they too have similar “characteristics” renowned for their specific breed.

Although breeding does NOT dictate a dogs personality in my experience some of the time it will influence – that’s all.

You're ruining my argument with your Cocker spaniel. How can I argue against such a lovely dog. When I got my dog I loved getting to know her and her idiosyncrasies. I was fortunate that she has a lovely nature. I don't know how much is nature/nurture. Maybe I was in a fortunate situation in that I could adapt to how she turned out to be.
I shouldn't really judge people if they try and raise the odds of getting a dog with the temperament they need or want.

cocker5

Mark Tapley wrote: »

You're ruining my argument with your Cocker spaniel. How can I argue against such a lovely dog. When I got my dog I loved getting to know her and her idiosyncrasies. I was fortunate that she has a lovely nature. I don't know how much is nature/nurture. Maybe I was in a fortunate situation in that I could adapt to how she turned out to be.
I shouldn't really judge people if they try and raise the odds of getting a dog with the temperament they need or want.

Opps sorry about that i didnt actually set out to get a cocker per say myself.... its was more the size of the dog, my husband wanted a spirnger but we agreed on a cocker - but once we researched the breed we got exactly what all the texts books say about cockers.... maybe Im just looking into things too much :pac:

But i do agree with you maybe its not text books at all,... maybe thats they way we sculpted our guy... maybe we moulded him to be like this...

I have matured in my old age now and would never purchase another dog... I was naive I will admit when purchasing my guy… I have since grown up and even I wanted a specific breed in the future i.e. an another cocker – I would wait until one came up for adoption in a local recuse – but that’s just me, that’s what my life experiences have taught me BUT I won’t judge people for buying a pure breed if that’s what they want… I will however judge them if they buy (or adopt) a dog then decide they couldn’t be bothered and “get rid” of the dog.

Mark Tapley

cocker5 wrote: »

Opps sorry about that i didnt actually set out to get a cocker per say myself.... its was more the size of the dog, my husband wanted a spirnger but we agreed on a cocker - but once we researched the breed we got exactly what all the texts books say about cockers.... maybe Im just looking into things too much :pac:

But i do agree with you maybe its not text books at all,... maybe thats they way we sculpted our guy... maybe we moulded him to be like this...

I have matured in my old age now and would never purchase another dog... I was naive I will admit when purchasing my guy… I have since grown up and even I wanted a specific breed in the future i.e. an another cocker – I would wait until one came up for adoption in a local recuse – but that’s just me, that’s what my life experiences have taught me BUT I won’t judge people for buying a pure breed if that’s what they want… I will however judge them if they buy (or adopt) a dog then decide they couldn’t be bothered and “get rid” of the dog.

I know what you mean some people seem to give up at the first hurdle. You see it in this forum sometimes and the posters will try to get them to explore other options.

Lemlin

Mark Tapley wrote: »

I really can't get my head around the whole pedigree/purebred thing . To me a dog is a dog .
Lots of dogs look cute why help create a market for specific cute.

I saw somethong on Facebook the other evening - I meant to return to it and have a good look but then couldn't find it.

Basically there were pictures of a new breed in the US where a medium sized dog was being bred with a small dog and what you ended up with was a dog that will always resemble a puppy when fully grown.

Did anyone else see it? I'd love to know the specifics of it but I've been unable to find it again.