Salary will be set at the level of Clerical Officer in the civil service.

NipNip

The following is posted on a job spec:

"Salary will be set at the level of Clerical Officer in the civil service. The current scale is
€20,859, €21,830, €22,805, €23,778, €24,752, €25,724, €26,672, €27,619, €28,569, €29,515,
€30,456, €31,924, €33,078 (after 3 years on maximum), €33,607 (after 6 years on maximum) "

Am I correct in assuming that your starting salary (irrespective of experience) will be €20,859 in the first year, rising on the above scale year on year?

TIA

o1s1n

11 years to get to 30k? ouch!

gazzer

NipNip wrote: »

The following is posted on a job spec:

"Salary will be set at the level of Clerical Officer in the civil service. The current scale is
€20,859, €21,830, €22,805, €23,778, €24,752, €25,724, €26,672, €27,619, €28,569, €29,515,
€30,456, €31,924, €33,078 (after 3 years on maximum), €33,607 (after 6 years on maximum) "

Am I correct in assuming that your starting salary (irrespective of experience) will be €20,859 in the first year, rising on the above scale year on year?

TIA

Yeah you are assuming correctly. Welcome to the world of Civil Service wages where it takes 16 years (assuming you get the correct marks on your PMDS each year) to still be below the average industrial wages.

NipNip

gazzer wrote: »

Yeah you are assuming correctly. Welcome to the world of Civil Service wages where it takes 16 years (assuming you get the correct marks on your PMDS each year) to still be below the average industrial wages.

Yikes! Jaysus, didn't realise they were that badly paid!!

gazzer

NipNip wrote: »

Yikes! Jaysus, didn't realise they were that badly paid!!

Higher Grades (HEO, AP, PO etc) get great wages imo but the lower grades are very badly paid. Though the lump sum pension is good if you can get 40 years service under your belt.

NipNip

gazzer wrote: »

Higher Grades (HEO, AP, PO etc) get great wages imo but the lower grades are very badly paid. Though the lump sum pension is good if you can get 40 years service under your belt.

Ye, I guess if you enter the civil service young and progress up through the ranks, it's not so bad. You wouldn't want to be starting off at my age! :eek:

KilOit

This is grade 3 salary, if you get in the door and apply for grade 4 positions provided you're hard working (these days you have to be good) then this salary would jump up 5 grand and almost 1k every year with increments.

As it stands, if you need money right now then this salary is rubbish.

InReality

KilOit wrote: »

This is grade 3 salary, if you get in the door and apply for grade 4 positions provided you're hard working (these days you have to be good) then this salary would jump up 5 grand and almost 1k every year with increments.

As it stands, if you need money right now then this salary is rubbish.

What do you mean by grade 4 positions ? Do you mean an EO ?

blindsider

I accept that the starting salary is not wonderful - but it's not much better in the private sector - for a similar role. I presume the Public sector still get allowances for qualifications etc e.g. a degree.

The Public sector does have job security - something the private sector doe not have - especially SME's.

Public sector pensions are far better than private sector - but I believe that Public pensions are not as good as heretofore. Still the Private sector couldn't buy a similar pension.

Not trying to start another $hitfight - but the Public sector is not all bad either.

donegal_man

Like the last poster I'm not one to join in the Public Service bashing game but that pay scale looks pretty good when compared to this vacancy for a manager with 2 - 3 years experience

Store Manager - Highstreet Fashion - Letterkenny

Our Client, a Leading UK Highstreet Fashion Retailer is currently looking to recruit a Store Manager for their new store opening soon in Letterkenny

The Ideal Candidate will be coming from a fast paced, high turnover fashion brand. They will be passionate and enthusiastic about fashion and the brand and will have a minimum of 2-3 year’s previous Store Management experience in Fashion Retail. They will have excellent commercial and VM skills and will be committed to providing impeccable standards of customer service. They will have a proven track record of working to, and exceeding, set sales targets and will demonstrate strong interpersonal and communication skills. They will be a strong leader and a team player and will have previous experience of leading and managing a team to success

Salary: up to €22K

SOURCE

Miharo

blindsider wrote: »

I accept that the starting salary is not wonderful - but it's not much better in the private sector - for a similar role. I presume the Public sector still get allowances for qualifications etc e.g. a degree.

Civil servants do not get an allowance for qualifications and they never did. Also keep in mind that your net pay will be lower than the equivalent you would get in the private sector

NipNip

Miharo wrote: »

Civil servants do not get an allowance for qualifications and they never did. Also keep in mind that your net pay will be lower than the equivalent you would get in the private sector

I suppose there is the opportunity to progress into higher paid roles. I doubt many people remain at the level of clerical officer for 10+ years? Maybe they do!!!

Miharo

NipNip wrote: »

I suppose there is the opportunity to progress into higher paid roles. I doubt many people remain at the level of clerical officer for 10+ years? Maybe they do!!!

They do believe me. There is very little opportunity to progress within the civil service at the moment and even when there is no ban on promotion the competition is fierce. I know lots of excellent, hard working COs, some with Master degrees who have been stuck on that grade for years so you cant assume you will progress as the opportunities just aren't there. Maybe that will change in the future as more people retire but in my experience as an ex-civil servant it is far easier to progress in the private sector.

NipNip

I've noticed that there are a lot of older people employed by the civil service. I would say 50% are 50 plus where I live! There's one young fella there (mid to late 20's I'd guess). The remainder are approximately aged 35 to 50. When they are pensioned off, there will be more opportunities for younger people I guess.

L1011

donegal_man wrote: »

Like the last poster I'm not one to join in the Public Service bashing game but that pay scale looks pretty good when compared to this vacancy for a manager with 2 - 3 years experience

SOURCE

UK retail salaries are crap. They're trying to pay a UK salary there and will be very lucky to get anyone. People with the experience they require will already be earning more

jon1981

To put in context for non civil servants. What does a clerical officer do? What kinds of roles in the civil service would you be taking on?

lollpop

jon1981 wrote: »

To put in context for non civil servants. What does a clerical officer do? What kinds of roles in the civil service would you be taking on?

It really depends on the specific job.
In my organisation, a grade 3 is usually general admin - filing, answering phones, data entry etc. You could be working in any department, e.g. HR, Finance, answering calls on the IT Support desk etc. The more specific roles, like the IT one would usually be advertised looking for specific skills suited to that area but still at the same pay grade.

jon1981

lollpop wrote: »

It really depends on the specific job.
In my organisation, a grade 3 is usually general admin - filing, answering phones, data entry etc. You could be working in any department, e.g. HR, Finance, answering calls on the IT Support desk etc. The more specific roles, like the IT one would usually be advertised looking for specific skills suited to that area but still at the same pay grade.

Seems like it's a mix of skilled (IT support at a stretch would require skill but not something the average couldn't learn in a few months) and unskilled work. I think if your job is mainly filing, stamping the odd form, dotting i's and answering phones it's hard to justify a larger salary.

gazzer

NipNip wrote: »

I suppose there is the opportunity to progress into higher paid roles. I doubt many people remain at the level of clerical officer for 10+ years? Maybe they do!!!

Recruitment embargo means lots of staff cant progress up the chain. I am at the same grade for 8 years. Not a chance of getting promotion at the moment. It is very fustrating.

gazzer

jon1981 wrote: »

To put in context for non civil servants. What does a clerical officer do? What kinds of roles in the civil service would you be taking on?

From my experience of what CO's do in my Department and other departments I have worked in

Level 2 Helpdesk Support Work
Calculating Pension entitlements for staff who have left to move into the private sector
Interviewing asylum seekers
Interviewing Jobseekers
Staff training
Calculating grant payments to farmers
Looking at legal documents to assess who owns particular land
Attending court cases
Support to ministers and ministers of state.

Some of these jobs SHOULD be done by higher grades but with staff numbers so low in some departments the jobs are done by the CO's

Meathlass

gazzer wrote: »

Yeah you are assuming correctly. Welcome to the world of Civil Service wages where it takes 16 years (assuming you get the correct marks on your PMDS each year) to still be below the average industrial wages.

And since increments are now frozen with the Haddington Road agreement it'll take even longer!

Meathlass

I accept that the starting salary is not wonderful - but it's not much better in the private sector - for a similar role. I presume the Public sector still get allowances for qualifications etc e.g. a degree.

No, no allowances for qualifications

The Public sector does have job security - something the private sector doe not have - especially SME's.

No permanent jobs anymore because of the moratorium on recruitment. Lots of people stuck on 6 month contracts which may or may not be renewed. Lots of instability and impossible to get a mortgage.

Public sector pensions are far better than private sector - but I believe that Public pensions are not as good as heretofore. Still the Private sector couldn't buy a similar pension.

Yeah but you have to pay a lot into your pension with no guarantee you'll get the service so you mightn't be there long enough to get it back when you retire.

daithi84

InReality wrote: »

What do you mean by grade 4 positions ? Do you mean an EO ?

Civil and Public Servants are different and the grading structures are different. In the Civil Service you have Clerical - Executive Officer - Higher Executive Officer. In the Public Service you have Clerical Officers - Assistant Staff Officers - Staff Officers - Senior Staff Officers - Administrative Officers. (These grades are referred internally in the public service as 3,4,5,6 and grade 7) Public Servants are paid slightly more than Civil Servants and get more holidays and used to work shorter days but apart from a little extra pay hours and holidays are now the same.

A Clerical Officer now is expected to do the same work as the person sitting beside them who is 2 grades above them and earning double their salary. Due to huge amount of staff retiring and redundancies and people not being replaced or promotions taking place you will find all clerical officers doing the work of grades above them. It has now become expected.

RachelS32

Hey I was wondering if you guy could I got offered a position in the Civil Service (Temporary Clerical Officer) on the information booklet its does say the wages is €379.82 per week, is this the set pay weekly after tax does anyone know? or will I be taxed on that? Cheers

Meathlass

RachelS32 wrote: »

Hey I was wondering if you guy could I got offered a position in the Civil Service (Temporary Clerical Officer) on the information booklet its does say the wages is €379.82 per week, is this the set pay weekly after tax does anyone know? or will I be taxed on that? Cheers

I'd say you'll be taxed on that (and PRSI and USC). Everyone's tax entitlements are different. Give HR a quick ring and ask them.

Maggiesims

NipNip wrote: »

The following is posted on a job spec:

"Salary will be set at the level of Clerical Officer in the civil service. The current scale is
€20,859, €21,830, €22,805, €23,778, €24,752, €25,724, €26,672, €27,619, €28,569, €29,515,
€30,456, €31,924, €33,078 (after 3 years on maximum), €33,607 (after 6 years on maximum) "

Am I correct in assuming that your starting salary (irrespective of experience) will be €20,859 in the first year, rising on the above scale year on year?

TIA

I think there maybe a change in this pay scale. The Temporary clerical officers are starting on €409 a week (see tco thread) so permanent clerical officers will have to get more than €401 a week.

NipNip

Maggiesims wrote: »

I think there maybe a change in this pay scale. The Temporary clerical officers are starting on €409 a week (see tco thread) so permanent clerical officers will have to get more than €401 a week.

The job spec was current as at 14/5/14....

RachelS32

I think if you start off on €409 if you have already been a TCO before and reapplying.

dollhouse14

I work in private sector at the moment, and I have for 15 years, had to take a wage cut in 2009 and been on that since. In the last 5 years have had no wage increase and expected to cover 3 peoples jobs, I know the wages above are not that great but at least there is security knowing that there will be an increase every year, the problem in private sector is a lot of the time you reach a certain point and no where from that, and there's always the treat the you can be made redundant and replaced these days by cheaper staff. There a very few jobs out there that are paying, all internships!!

The_Conductor

dollhouse14 wrote: »

I work in private sector at the moment, and I have for 15 years, had to take a wage cut in 2009 and been on that since. In the last 5 years have had no wage increase and expected to cover 3 peoples jobs, I know the wages above are not that great but at least there is security knowing that there will be an increase every year, the problem in private sector is a lot of the time you reach a certain point and no where from that, and there's always the treat the you can be made redundant and replaced these days by cheaper staff. There a very few jobs out there that are paying, all internships!!

The civil service have had pay cuts too- all the scales were cut- which is why so many people left- they wanted to leave before the pay cuts were implemented.

There is not necessarily an increase each year- the increment time scales were stretched out in Croke Park- plus for those towards the top of their scales- it could well be 3 or 4 years 'waiting' on any particular salary point. Once you have reached a certain point on the scale- thats it, thats your salary for ever after- its the model employed from several different sectors in the private sector.

At the moment- most people are on 6 month or 1 year rolling contracts- with the exception of a small core of permanent staff- there have been few permanent posts created in years (though there is the new competition out at the moment).

Its not the case that the grass is necessarily greener on the other side.

price690

How on earth can they advertise CO jobs in Dublin where you have to wait 5 years before earning 25k? Its pure madness how would these workers be expected to live?

Surely theres an argument for placing these lower paid workers outside of Dublin? Do they really need to go into Dublin City centre in order to sit at their computer and phone every day?

The economics of it are insane

The_Conductor

People imagine that civil servants and public sector employees are exceedingly well paid- from all the stories in the media- when the facts on the ground, for all other than a small cohort- do not support the constant hysteria in the media.

If its what people want to do then go for it, but don't go for the job/career and than say they didn't think the salary was so low or they that they though they would get promotion quicker or that they though it would be different. The one thing about the public services/civil service is its very transparent on earnings.

In other words candidates know what it is like before they take up the position.

price690

mariaalice wrote: »

If its what people want to do then go for it, but
on't go for the job/career and than say they didn't think the salary was so low or they that they though they would get promotion quicker or that they though it would be different. The one thing about the public services/civil service is its very transparent on earnings.

In other words individual know what it is like before they take up the position.

But how can someone exist in Dublin on such a pittance of a wage?

CO positions seem to be exclusive to Dublin aswell, why on earth is it a necessity to carry out this work in Dublin?

And apparently older members of staff are doing the same job for possibly 2 times that amount.

I just struggle to see how they can offer roles in Dublin for such low salaries considering the cost of living up there, how are people supposed to make ends meet?

price690

price690 wrote: »

But how can someone exist in Dublin on such a pittance of a wage?

CO positions seem to be exclusive to Dublin aswell, why on earth is it a necessity to carry out this work in Dublin?

And apparently older members of staff are doing the same job for possibly 2 times that amount.

I just struggle to see how they can offer roles in Dublin for such low salaries considering the cost of living up there, how are people supposed to make ends meet?

Over time there will be pay increases, at the same time you have to be realistic it is non complex clerical work its never going to pay a huge amount.

2RockMountain

blindsider wrote: »

Public sector pensions are far better than private sector - but I believe that Public pensions are not as good as heretofore. Still the Private sector couldn't buy a similar pension.

Not trying to start another $hitfight - but the Public sector is not all bad either.

The pensions for low level public sector staff like COs are not 'far better' than private sector. Pensions are 'co-ordinated' with the standard old age pension, so if your standard pension entitlement comes out at less than the standard OAP (quite likely for a CO with 20 or 25 years service), you get precisely zero, nothing, nada, rien.

Any private sector pension will give you something ON TOP OF the standard old age pension - but this is not the case for low level public sector staff.

The_Conductor

2RockMountain wrote: »

The pensions for low level public sector staff like COs are not 'far better' than private sector. Pensions are 'co-ordinated' with the standard old age pension, so if your standard pension entitlement comes out at less than the standard OAP (quite likely for a CO with 20 or 25 years service), you get precisely zero, nothing, nada, rien.

Any private sector pension will give you something ON TOP OF the standard old age pension - but this is not the case for low level public sector staff.

Very few people realise this.
Clerical staff- or even junior management staff with a break in service- or who don't have a full 40 years service- more often than not- get the contributory old age pension- nothing else (or very very little).

Its actually quite remarkable that none of the stories peddled in the media are ever rebuted.

jimba

So a CO with 40 years service wont see anything beyond the State pension??

jimba

jimba wrote: »

So a CO with 40 years service wont see anything beyond the State pension??

No, its if you retired with out having 40 years pensionable service.

2RockMountain

jimba wrote: »

So a CO with 40 years service wont see anything beyond the State pension??

By my calculation, up to 29 years of service, a CO will get zero. For the full 40 years, the CO will get the grand sum of €4,407 a year on top of the COAP - or just over €100 each year for each full year of service given - which is quite a bit less than their pension related deductions.

And Eddie Hobbs will still be waffling on about those gold-plated pensions...

2RockMountain

2RockMountain wrote: »

By my calculation, up to 29 years of service, a CO will get zero. For the full 40 years, the CO will get the grand sum of €4,407 a year on top of the COAP - or just over €100 each year for each full year of service given - which is quite a bit less than their pension related deductions.

And Eddie Hobbs will still be waffling on about those gold-plated pensions...

Will they not get a lump sum on retirement as well?

The_Conductor

jimba wrote: »

So a CO with 40 years service wont see anything beyond the State pension??

The CO salary scale is as follows:

21,345 – 22,805 – 23,177 – 24,255 – 25,339 – 26,420 – 27,502 – 28,583 – 29,635 – 30,688 – 31,743 – 32,975 – 33,840 – 35,471 – 36,7531* – 373412**

It takes 18 years to reach the second 'long service increment'

A CO with 40 years service (i.e. who has not taken time off to be with children etc) is eligible for a career average salary (not a final salary) pension of half their career average salary.

A CO with 40 years service on the current salary scale- pays a 10% pension contribution - and has a career average salary of 34,072

Half the career average salary is 17,036
Current rate of contributory old age pension in Ireland = 233.30 per week
Annual PRSI contributory pension = 12,131.60
Civil service pension accruing to a CO after 40 years service = 4,904 per annum = 94 Euro per week.

So- a CO pays a 10% gross pension contribution for a weekly civil pension of 94 Euro after 40 years service.

If the CO is not eligible for the contributory old age pension (for whatever reason)- there is no onus on the civil service superannuation scheme to top up their 94 Euro to bring to the social welfare rate (some Departments traditionally topped it up in the past- however, its not an entitlement).

If a CO doesn't have 40 years service (they may have taken time out while child rearing for example- the average CO retiring has 32 years service when retiring at age 65)- they would be entitled to a pro-rata pension- a 6/8 pension (not 6/8 of the 94 Euro mind!)

In this case- a career average salary is 33,254. Half of this is 16,627. 32/40ths of this is 12,470. Less the contributory old age pension of 12,131- leaves 340 Euro- which is a civil service pension of 6 Euro 54 cent per week- for a CO retiring with 32 years service (and they would be entitled to claim the contributory old age pension @ 67)

Oh yes- they're paying a 10% deduction on top of their regular PRSI- for that 6 Euro 54 cent too........

I think you can see when its actually set down in numbers- how it can go skew-ways damn fast- and even at the best of times- its not a particularly attractive pension- best case scenario- full stamps, 40 years service, no breaks for child rearing etc (almost 80% of COs are women!)- you have a civil service pension of 94 Euro a week. What happens to the average CO- is they have an entitlement to 32/40ths of a civil service pension- which on a career average pension- is only 6 Euro 54 cent per week...........

Sit down and plug the figures in Excel- you'll see that what I've just described above is accurate to within a few pence..........

Its scarey for a lot of people- and for the average CO- its deeply unfair that they have to take a 10% deduction for a pension that means absolutely nothing whatsoever.........

The_Conductor

mariaalice wrote: »

Will they not get a lump sum on retirement as well?

Yes they will- but the bulk of their pension- the contributory old age pension- will not accrue until 67 now- but most probably 70- within the next 10 years- and the lumpsum they get if they retire with 40 years service at age 65 (as is currently the case)- is less than they would get from the contributory old age pension until such time as it vests.........

The CPSU and Impact- really need to get someone who knows their figures to sit down and crunch the pension data- because there are a lot of COs esp. in for a very bleak retirement.

The real spanner in the works at the moment- is that the transitional old age pension- which used make up pensions at age 65 until such time as the old age pension vested (it was open to everyone- not just the public sector) has been abolished- it no longer exists.

Correspondence from the Department of Finance indicates that people retiring at 65- regardless of whether they have the option to work longer- or not- and wholly regardless of how many years stamps they have- will be expected to qualify for and claim the jobseekers allowance until such time as their contributory old age pension vests (now at age 67- however, its entirely foreseeable that this will increase towards and ultimately to 70)..........

Pensions are a ticking timebomb that people really haven't copped are a massive issue just yet............