Weakness of new political parties

Grudaire

It has come to my attention that both Fís Nua and also Direct Democracy Ireland will be running in my constituency.

What really confuses me is how these parties hope to get elected with zero campaigning (no posters, leaflets or canvassing that I have seen)? Unless they are targeting very specific areas in the constituency I have seen nothing from either candidate.

I think it's pretty clear that they won't be getting many votes, but I really just don't understand the rational behind it... Especially as new parties have promises of more engagement with the electorate, but they won't engage in door to door feedback.


What makes this more bizarre is that Fís Nua managed a mere 40 first references when they probably had more media presence Source.

gandalf

They obviously have no funds for campaigning and very few feet on the ground to spread the word.

Grudaire

There's being small (eg Roderic O'Gorman and Séan Lyons) and then there's actually not campaigning at all...

Heck he doesn't even appear on the Fís Nua website! http://fisnua.com/elections-may-2014/ :pac:

Gregor Samsa

According to the Fís Nua website, they're running four candidates for Clare Co. Co., bizarrely with 2 in the Ennis electoral area alone. I haven't seen or heard a single peep out of any of them here. I know posters and leaflets are expensive, but you'd think if they were serious they'd be able to get something together. There are multiple first-time independents that have the town plastered with posters. Otherwise, what's the point in running at all?

Silentcorner

Fianna Fail, in their first act in opposition in 2011, launched a bill banning corporate donations (in accordance with findings in the Moriarty Tribunal)

At the time I thought that they were simply attempting to curtail the money Fg/Lab would expect to receive as governing parties, but I was wrong...this has made it incredible difficult to raise finance to launch a meaningful campaign for any new party...the first hurdle a new party encounters is finance...remember the established political parties receive funding from the exchequer every year, which pays for posters/literature/focus groups etc...

Well done FF...they have made it impossible for a new party to emerge (in my opinion)...very slick

Grudaire

Are you telling me that these new small parties were getting significant levels of funding from corporate donations?

As well some parties already do not accept corporate donations (eg Greens, who also since the 2011 election do not get any state funding)

It's not cheap, and I don't agree with the gratutious levels of spending by some, but I would expect that any realistic candidate would want to raise enough for at least one leaflet per house in the constituency.

Silentcorner

Grudaire wrote: »

Are you telling me that these new small parties were getting significant levels of funding from corporate donations?

As well some parties already do not accept corporate donations (eg Greens, who also since the 2011 election do not get any state funding)

It's not cheap, and I don't agree with the gratutious levels of spending by some, but I would expect that any realistic candidate would want to raise enough for at least one leaflet per house in the constituency.

What I'm saying is that these new parties are getting none at all...they are starved of finance...which is why they are not making the impact you wish to see....it is not because they are not putting in the effort....it is incredibly difficult to make an impact in a locality if you are up against FF/Fg/Lab/SF...it is expensive to contract leaflet delivery (and a minefield)...when considering candidates to vote for think David v Goliath...

Grudaire

Does the candidate himself not have two feet?

Gregor Samsa

Silentcorner wrote: »

What I'm saying is that these new parties are getting none at all...they are starved of finance...which is why they are not making the impact you wish to see....it is not because they are not putting in the effort....it is incredibly difficult to make an impact in a locality if you are up against FF/Fg/Lab/SF...it is expensive to contract leaflet delivery (and a minefield)...when considering candidates to vote for think David v Goliath...

Many independents seem to manage it. Of the 10 independents running in Ennis, 6 have posters on the main road nearest my house, 3 have knocked on my door in person, and another 3 have put a leaflet in. That's not to mention what they may or may not be doing in the rest of the town.

The only reasons I can think of to put yourself up for election are:

1. To get elected
or
2. To raise your profile towards getting elected in the future
or
3. To raise awareness of some issue with the wider community

I'm sure some of these silent candidates have some profile within whatever niche they represent, but without some sort of engagement with the wider electorate, what's the point in standing?

If what you say is true, then why are Fís Nua putting two silent candidates with no resources up for election in Ennis? Why not put up one, and double whatever little resources they have to campaign for that candidate?

alastair

Sean O Rourke's programme on Radio 1 was down in Clare this morning and had recordings of all the less known candidates setting out their stall as to their policies. No debate, or interrogation, just their pitch. The Fis Nua candidate declined to provide anything for them. Strange to say the least

Grudaire

The thing is that I'm not against the idea of a new political party. Indeed Fís Nua seemed to be interesting in the beginning (although their policies now seem unrealistic to say the least).

As phutyle says what is the point if you're not going at least pretend to try?

Silentcorner

I can't speak for Fis Nua, first I heard of them was on this thread...I was merely pointing out the size of the gap between the mainstream (and taxpayer funded) parties and the independents and new political parties, and the impact that gap has on the electorate.

Phoebas

Grudaire wrote: »

Does the candidate himself not have two feet?

+1

I know a candidate, running for the Green party, who afaik isn't getting funding from them, but with a small group of helpers (family and friends) is attempting to knock on 20,000 doors in the run up to the election.

hfallada

Phoebas wrote: »

+1

I know a candidate, running for the Green party, who afaik isn't getting funding from them, but with a small group of helpers (family and friends) is attempting to knock on 20,000 doors in the run up to the election.

Bertie made sure to knock on the door of most voters every year in Dublin central. Every year like clock work we went to different areas to meet and greet the people. I know I have yet to see any TD from Dublin central visit my area since the General election.

Bertie gave the impression the opinion of the voters mattered. What does tell you about a candidate if they dont call to your door. They couldnt careless.

Permabear

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Gregor Samsa

Yeah, I certainly get that Fís Nua presentation and policies reveal them to be marketing amateurs with (to be charitable) unrealistic political notions, but I can't fathom how a group of adults can get together and decide that the way to contest an election is not to campaign at all.

It's like they adapted the Underpants Gnomes' strategy:

1. Stand for election
2. ???
3. Elected

Maybe they'll surprise us all with a brilliant stunt on the 22nd, and romp home to national victory.

Permabear

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LuckyLloyd

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

What if the goal is not to attain electoral success? Seems like Fis Nua is borne of the fringe environmental protest movement. There is a minority in the country who are so disaffected and dissatisfied by general society and the democratic process that they will not directly engage with it as a manner of principle. In that context, Fis Nua seems to me to be the equivalent of blocking a work vehicle in Westport, just another form of protest.

While it wouldn't be my politics, the faux bafflement in this thread is a little disingenuous imo.

Gregor Samsa

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

In that context, Fis Nua seems to me to be the equivalent of blocking a work vehicle in Westport, just another form of protest.

What kind of protest is silence and invisibility? It's more like hiding in a bush as a work vehicle in Westport trundles past oblivious.

LuckyLloyd

phutyle wrote: »

What kind of protest is silence and invisibility? It's more like hiding in a bush as a work vehicle in Westport trundles past.

You're talking about them in this thread though right?

Gregor Samsa

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You're talking about them in this thread though right?

Ah, their strategy is working! Do noting, and let people question their lack of willingness to campaign, and watch the lack of votes roll in. That will surely cure cancer and its causes. :rolleyes:

Grudaire

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You're talking about them in this thread though right?

I was trying to give them a kick up the ars* to try and at least get them to engage a bit.

I mean Direct Democracy in particular should increase the interaction with the electorate! I don't see how their attitude of 'you come to us' is really direct democracy!

LuckyLloyd

phutyle wrote: »

Ah, their strategy is working! Do noting, and let people question their lack of willingness to campaign, and watch the lack of votes roll in. That will surely cure cancer and its causes. :rolleyes:

What are you arguing here, or what do you think I'm arguing?

They understand their approach won't win, that it is not in keeping with the current democratic process. They don't care to win, just to stand and by standing register their political preference.

I remember a while back in the lead up to a general election (may have been as far back as 1997) on Questions and Answers a young man got the floor and made a point about none of the current parties representing him. Bowman waved him away and replied 'so stand' before quickly moving on.

As I said earlier, it certainly isn't my politics. But it would be pointless all the same tutting at its ineffectiveness.

Grudaire

Is their political preference for politicians to engage less with the electorate?

Loafing Oaf

Silentcorner wrote: »

What I'm saying is that these new parties are getting none at all...they are starved of finance...which is why they are not making the impact you wish to see..

But what relevance has the ban on corporate donations. Before this came in, were businesses throwing money at new parties? Focusing on that issue seems to be a convenient excuse for those who believe there is widespread public disaffection with the established parties but can't explain how this doesn't translate into the emergence of new ones.

Grudaire

I've done DDI a disservice - they have three or four posters up on the Navan Road!

(No leaflets or canvassers as of yet though!)

Grudaire

Fís Nua candidate on Vincent Browne doesn't know why Fís Nua is different to the Socialist Party..

Permabear

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nesf

I've a "People's Candidates" leaflet in front of me that wasn't even put in my letterbox but left outside my door on the ground. The City Council candidate seems to think he'll be able to do something about taxes levied on me and the number of Gardaí. The other stuff on there he might affect on the Council (realistically no unless his vote turns out to be important in making up a majority on it) but really, my low confidence in politicians in general just drops through the floor when they start talking about changing stuff they cannot at all affect from the position they are running for.

Bleh. You can at least tell the ones, both party and independent, who've previously held these positions. Their leaflets normally are restricted to what limited powers our Councils have.

Valmont

Can anyone explain this point to me:

Fis Nua wrote:

Encourage voluntary population stabilisation, and aim for a long-term population size that enables a high standard of living for everyone without undermining ecological systems and the life-support services they provide.

Am I reading it correctly as 'less people'? If so they might want to recall their promise to 'end cancer and its causes'.

Fis Nua wrote:

Limit the scope of advertising to prevent unnecessary demand stimulation and wasteful consumption.

The next time I see a product advertised that I would like to buy I will have to remember that I don't really want it because what I am really experiencing is 'unnecessary demand stimulation'.

Gregor Samsa

Valmont wrote: »

Fis Nua wrote:

Limit the scope of advertising to prevent unnecessary demand stimulation and wasteful consumption.

Maybe this explains why they're not campaigning. They don't want to demand stimulate us unnecessarily.

expectationlost

the fis nua guy on vinb dublin west could hardly speak nerves and lack of practice ..

Irish political parties received €12.9m in state funding for 2013. That's what any new political party is up against. http://www.sipo.gov.ie/en/reports/state-financing/funding-party-leaders-legislation/2013-expenditure-party-leaders-allowance/2013-expenditure-party-leaders-allowance.html via elaine byrne

Grudaire

expectationlost wrote: »

Irish political parties received €12.9m in state funding for 2013. That's what any new political party is up against. http://www.sipo.gov.ie/en/reports/state-financing/funding-party-leaders-legislation/2013-expenditure-party-leaders-allowance/2013-expenditure-party-leaders-allowance.html via elaine byrne

But parties like the Greens and indeed independent candidates also don't get state funding and still manage to mount campaigns..

expectationlost

Grudaire wrote: »

But parties like the Greens and indeed independent candidates also don't get state funding and still manage to mount campaigns..

and most of them will be going a lot longer

Grudaire

expectationlost wrote: »

and most of them will be going a lot longer

Even Independents?


I am surprised so many people are defending the absolute lack of campaigning from the likes of Fís Nua.

C14N

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I looked at it too, I particularly liked this line:

Originally posted by Fis Nua
The Global Economy literally floats on oil

:rolleyes:

And this rather confusing statement:

Originally posted by Fis Nua
It can also be convincingly argued that modern agriculture is the process of turning crude oil into people.

The website kind of made me sad. It wasn't poorly designed enough that it looked like one of those 2000-era HTML monstrosities but at the same time it looks incredibly cheap and amateurish. The walls of dry, unreadable text on over 12 different political topics makes it somewhat impenetrable too. I wouldn't normally judge a party on their site so much but it sounds like the website is pretty much all these guys have.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You're talking about them in this thread though right?

The fact that some people who have such an interest in politics that they elect to spend recreational time discussing it on the internet have heard of them and aren't taking them seriously doesn't mean they've put up a successful protest.

Scofflaw

Fis Nua wrote:

It can also be convincingly argued that modern agriculture is the process of turning crude oil into people.

To be fair, that's true - we use a massive amount of petroleum products in mechanised agriculture, so much so that without crude oil agriculture would be unable to support the number of people it does.

The politically confusing thing is why anybody thought that saying this in such a way was a good idea.

cordially,
Scofflaw