Enquiry about crate training

learnerplates

We have to 13week old pups.
My plan it to toilet train them in a second crate. We've tried the mat and paper on the floor but only 1 of them understands it.


They toilet outside unless something stops them from getting out the door in time (and they're outside all day), they usually go to the door when they want go out.
This is great but if they don't get out in time they are liable to go anywhere inside the house!
How can crate training train them for indoors?

They sleep in a crate and almost never toilet in there unless they've accidentally drank too much water the night before.


http://www.perfectpaws.com/crt.html

DBB

Learnerplates, I've moved your enquiry to its own thread as it had resurrected a very old thread otherwise.

Now, with mod hat off, are you suggesting that you use a second crate to allow the pups to toilet in?
This is not a road I'd recommend at all: the crate is intended to be a management tool, and one in which they never, ever have to go to the toilet. If you insist they don't toilet in one crate, but do in the other, you're going to cause a huge amount of confusion!
To crate train them, it is critical that they are only left in the crate for periods of time that they can manage: for a 13 week old pup, this is about one hour tops.
Locking a young puppy into a crate all night is not an option, because it forces them to pee or poop in the very place you're trying to stop them peeing or pooping. Ideally, you should get up during the night and bring them out: this means that their opportunities to "get it right" are maximised, rather than allowing it to be watered down by sometimes allowing toileting inside, sometimes not. If you can't/won't get up, then you need to leave the crate open and provide an appropriate substrate for them to toilet on indoors... a cat litter tray with a sod of turf, or sand in it would be the best option here, as it most closely mimics the outside world, which is where you're trying to get them to associate with going to the toilet.
Neither should pups be imprisoned in the crate. It should be a bedroom for them to rest and sleep in, and a place where you put them if you can't attend to their bladder and bowel for the next little while. Say, for example, you know it's been 30 mins since they last peed, but you know you just won't be able to get them out for another 20 mins (you might be putting kids to bed, or taking a shower, or nipping down to the shop), then they must go into the crate.
Every single time you take them out of the crate, whether this is after a 20 minute hiatus as above, or whether they've just woken up, or whether they've just finished a meal or a chew toy in the crate, you MUST bring them straight outside: no dilly-dallying. And you MUST go outside with them so that you are 100% certain that they have emptied themselves.
Bring them out, stay quiet, and wait. As they start to toilet, coo gently at them. When they finish, have a party! Lots of praise, a treat, a game, and bring them back inside. This teaches them that going outside is far more rewarding than going inside. It also teaches them that they don't get to go back inside the house until their bladder/bowel feels empty... one of the critical elements of housetraining that's too often overlooked.
By ensuring that you automatically, ALWAYS bring them direct to the garden from the crate, you will find that within a few days, when you open the crate door they will make their own beeline for the back door, which tells you that they are now making the association with deliberately seeking to go outside when they feel that their bladder or bowel need emptying. In other words, the crate allows you to control what they're doing with their bladder and bowel, and allows you to create a direct association between waking up/finishing eating etc, with going outside to empty... the crate also prevents a lot of accidents around the house which only serve to water down the training.
Once they have gone to the toilet in the garden, you now know they're safe to have free time back inside the house, before the whole cycle starts again. If, during free time, they go to the door, it is 100% your responsibility to facilitate them getting outside immediately: their willingness to go to the door MUST be gratified by being allowed out to pee, immediately.
If you don't let them out immediately, what are they meant to do now? They've asked to be let out, they weren't let out, they're bursting for a pee.... a 13 week old bladder just can't hold it in for longer than a few seconds. So, they pee! They cannot be blamed for this.
So, if they ask to go out, and aren't let out, then pee, not to put too fine a point on it, it is YOUR fault!:o
One other thing to consider, the fact that they're outside all day does not serve to housetrain them. Housetraining is the process of actively teaching them to move from inside to outside when they feel the need to toilet. This association is not created by simply leaving them outdoors all day.
Routine is just vital, and housetraining is one of those things that new owners have to really dedicate themselves to for a couple of months. There are no short-cuts, but there are ways of making the process reach a more effective end!
Good luck!

Whispered

Could that post be linked in the FAQ sticky? Very informative.

learnerplates

DBB,
Thanks for the detailed response. I agree with all you've said and this is everything we've seen.

Our guys are actually very good and get outside if they can, mostly.

The issue is as you've mentioned at the end of your response, what do we do when they're inside and we don't give them enough time to get outside or else they've been distracted and toilet in the house by mistake?

Ideally we're looking for a spot for them inside the house which they'll use in emergency.

DBB

learnerplates wrote: »

The issue is as you've mentioned at the end of your response, what do we do when they're inside and we don't give them enough time to get outside or else they've been distracted and toilet in the house by mistake?

Ideally we're looking for a spot for them inside the house which they'll use in emergency.

To be honest, it's not at all ideal to deliberately allow them to go inside at all, because it sends mixed signals to the dogs.
If they have accidents in the house, and you catch them in the act, and I really mean that you catch them with the wee flowing out of them, you can interrupt gently and bring them outside.
If you catch them once they have begun to lift out of the squatting position, it's too late to intervene in any way, and certainly too late to give out to them. When this happens, give yourself a mental pinch to make sure you're more vigilant the next time :P Everyone with puppies has to brace themselves for these inevitable mistakes, it's one of the joys of having pups, and I think you're better off just dedicating yourself to getting them out when they ask, and/or dealing with it when they have an accident (caused by your lack of vigilance)... Otherwise, by allowing them to choose an indoor substrate of any kind, you're telling them that sometimes it's okay to toilet inside. This will certainly make the toilet-training period longer, and may even contribute to them never being 100% toilet trained.
However, if you absolutely cannot be there to let them out each and every time, and remember that this is far from ideal, then providing them with something that as closely mimics the outdoor toileting environment as possible is called for.
Puppies form very strong associations with the feel and smell of the substrate they're allowed to toilet on, which stays with them for life. So, if your pups routinely toilet out in the garden on grass, your best bet is to provide a cat litter tray (or something similar), with a sod of turf in it. Sand is another good substrate. If your garden is gravel-only, put gravel in the box.
How does that sound?

learnerplates

Dbb that sounds good and it is the way it actually works for us. I assumed pups were trained to toilet indoors.

Ms.Sunshine

Can I ask, What can You do if you can not be at home to let out the pup?? For example , I have a 3 month pup who we have crate trained but still has accidents in side. Not too many though.
I know I wont be around a day this week for 7 hours & I dont really have a suitable small room that I can fit the crate in and area for him to run around etc.

Any advice for me? Thanks

snoman

Ms.Sunshine wrote: »

Can I ask, What can You do if you can not be at home to let out the pup?? For example , I have a 3 month pup who we have crate trained but still has accidents in side. Not too many though.
I know I wont be around a day this week for 7 hours & I dont really have a suitable small room that I can fit the crate in and area for him to run around etc.

Any advice for me? Thanks

I've not crate trained my two, and I've not reared a puppy but I'm pretty sure that the idea is to allow a puppy of that age to be in the crate for short (under an hour) periods to get him feeling safe and secure so that he wants to go in and sleep/rest there and that he'll feel comfortable. If you lock him in for long periods you're treating it as a cage and he'll hate it.

I don't think it's feasible to leave him in a crate for a full working day and expect him not to pee (maybe whilst at work you could abstain from using the bathroom until you get home, maybe possible but a tad uncomfortable!!!). He is, after all, very young.

Also I'd imagine he'd get bored, boredom means destruction..... and distress. Unfortunately pups of that age need stimulation and interaction everyday to grow up right.

Ms.Sunshine

snoman wrote: »

I've not crate trained my two, and I've not reared a puppy but I'm pretty sure that the idea is to allow a puppy of that age to be in the crate for short (under an hour) periods to get him feeling safe and secure so that he wants to go in and sleep/rest there and that he'll feel comfortable. If you lock him in for long periods you're treating it as a cage and he'll hate it.

I don't think it's feasible to leave him in a crate for a full working day and expect him not to pee (maybe whilst at work you could abstain from using the bathroom until you get home, maybe possible but a tad uncomfortable!!!). He is, after all, very young.

Also I'd imagine he'd get bored, boredom means destruction..... and distress. Unfortunately pups of that age need stimulation and interaction everyday to grow up right.

Thanks for the reply. I understand what you are saying and know it's not ideal at all as usually I am here with him all the time except this one day. What would you suggest I do?

snoman

Ms.Sunshine wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. I understand what you are saying and know it's not ideal at all as usually I am here with him all the time except this one day. What would you suggest I do?

Honestly I think it's really hard, work is a necessity and obviously you have to do it. But if you choose to get a puppy rather than an older dog then you also make the implicit choice that he is not going to be left by himself all day, not even once. That has to be on the tick box in your 'reasons not to get a puppy' side. It's certainly one of the reasons I didn't get one.

Personally I'd either pay a pet sitter to come once in the day or get a friend or family to come in. Could you put the crate in a play pen? Then at least he can get out of it but still be contained.

Good luck!