Small aggressive dog 8 years old

StickyIcky

Hi all

My wifes mothers dog is a small breed dog about 8 years old and has never been trained properly. She is aggressive and tries to bite my wifes mum on several occasions and she's scared of it. The little female dog bares it's teeth and growls any snaps often. It bites rarely, generally when it doesn't want to be touched. The dog has always been this way. I believe it's a case of the dog not being trained properly and it feels it's more powerful than my wifes mother.

We're going go visit her mother soon and I offered to see if I can help. If I had a dog and it ever tried to bite me I'd scold it from the very first time it so it learn't from an early age biting is not acceptable. However with the advanced age of this dog I'm wondering is it possible to change her behaviour at this age?

Also what techniques would you think is best or even acceptable? First thing I'm going to advise is to have her taken to the vet to check if there's some underlying health issue that's causing it. But since the dog has 'always been this way' I think it's unlikely, but safest to check that out first.

The training / behaviour changing method I had in mind is firstly to use thick gloves so if it did bite my hands it wouldn't hurt. Secondly don't act scared of her at all, don't retreat or pull away. Be patient and calm and don't give up or let the dog win. Let her realise that I have more patience and will power than her and that the only option is to submit. If she tries to bite me the plan is that I'll hold her down on the floor, firmly and calmly. She'll no doubt struggle and try to bite me and go crazy, but I'll calmly continue to hold her down firmly enough that it's not hurting her but firm enough she can't get away. After some time struggling she'll undoubtedly give up and submit to me as she'll be expending far more energy struggling than I'll be calmly holding her. Once she stops I'll stroke her and say nice things and after a short period of doing this I'll let her up. If she tried to flee at this stage I'll follow her. Basically I'm going to show her that she has no choice but to be with me and submit to me. I think dog training comes down to persistant calm repeition, until the dog understands what it is you want / will accept as good behaviour and that you'll reward them for this behaviour.

What do you think of that strategy? I'm open to all advice. I know this method will probably work, but it may also not work. I've never dealth with a small aggressive dog before. I've only ever train 'dangerous dog breeds' from pups and they all turned out to be the most friendly well trained wonderful dogs you'd meet. There maybe a better way to go about training the aggression out of this little dog, so if you know of one let me know. It maybe that 8 years is too old to change her behaviour which I doubt it, but let me know if you think i'll be wasting my time.

The next step of course will be getting her mum to follow through with my training which might probably be the hardest step of all. Probably I can train the dog not to bite or bare it's teeth at me, but will carry on doing it to my wifes mum

Thanks a million guys

yellowlabrador

Leave the dog be. It's trying to communicate. I've adopted as little dog like this who is now 15. It's previous owner complained about growling and trying to bite when being touched etc. I just let him be and don't force him to do anything. He's lovely and happy and I've yet to hear a growl. He refuses to go into his old home though.

maggiepip

Nooooo dont do that OP!!!!! All you'll do is terrify the dog and as biting is usually caused by some sort of fear issue you'll actually make the little dog worse. You cant cure an issue like this in one sitting either. Get the dog checked by the vet to rule out anything physical and get a good qualified behaviourist to work with dog and owner. Hopefully someone here on boards can recommended a good one.

StickyIcky

Hi Maggiepip

Her mum is overseas so if a behaviourist is the way to go she will need to find one in her country.

I'll be there for a couple of weeks and was hoping that in that time I could win the dogs trust and respect. I wasn't planning on going over, grabbing the dog and pinning her down. But more showing her I'm not scared of her, that baring her teeth or biting will have no effect on me what so ever. Perhaps I should instead only do that without holding or touching her? Just calmly follow her and be close to her (wearing protection) and not react if she growls or bites. I'm definitely not scared so I'm hoping my energy will be different enough to sense that this behaviour she's used to using to get her way isn't working anymore..

Yeah definitely I agree with the vet bit and will be getting it checked out by a vet first thing.

If you think the growling and biting could be a fear thing then I could see how holding her down might scare her at first. I thought I'd ask on here before I did this as I knew there could be a reason why this might be wrong / not work / be a step in the wrong direction.

The wife and her mother believe the dog thinks it's the boss and that's the reason why there is aggression there. They both doubt the aggression is fear based and more dominance based. From what little I've seen of this dog and my experience with other dogs it doesn't look like fear based aggression.

cocker5

First protocol is always get the dog checked out by the vet to make sure there are no underlying medical conditions etc.

Secondly OP, I know you mean well, and think you are trying to help your mother in law, but chasing after the dog trying to make its submit will not work, infact you will probably scare the life out of the dog and she will become more aggressive.
The whole things of “show the dogs who’s boss” is long gone and is proven to be counterproductive - so please don’t do this.

Thirdly OP im afraid really the only person who can train this dog is 1. your mother in law and 2 alongside a professional dog trainer, for two reasons.
someone who is trained knows how to approach this situation correctly and it’s your mother in laws dog, if an owner isn’t involved in training the dog (i.e. the main person), while they dog may learn for you, as soon as you leave she will be the same as always with your mother in law.

Often it’s both the dog and owner that need training together – that’s what gives the best results.

please let us know where you are based and maybe someone can recommend a proper dog trainer to help you and your family.

cocker5

The wife and her mother believe the dog thinks it's the boss and that's the reason why there is aggression there. They both doubt the aggression is fear based and more dominance based. From what little I've seen of this dog and my experience with other dogs it doesn't look like fear based aggression.

Honestly OP this mentality has long been proven incorrect.. its like an old wives tale.

Lots of small dogs have fear based aggression... please get a professional to help.... you are not quaifiled and inturn will probably do more harm than good. I know you mean well but in this case best leave it to a professional

StickyIcky

Yip cocker5 of course I'm trying to help. I've always had really well trained dogs but then I've had them from pups so it's easy to learn two way communication with them and it's really easy to shape their behaviour by rewarding them for example of they are chewing their chew toy act like they're doing the 'best thing in the whole world' Dogs are so funny Training them is usually even funnier, they really just want to please. Ah I love dogs.

Anyway... !

Seems like the general consensus is don't try and train the dog, get a professional in to help instead. I guess you're right and it's probably too far gone and just because I think I'm a good dog trainer cus I can train puppies who are super easy to train, this is a whole nother kettle of fish.

Thanks ya'll I'll be strongly recommending a behaviourist instead.

Cheers!

Whispered

A lot of what you're saying is based on very old school methods. The dog is not growling because she thinks she is the boss, there must be another reason. Maybe she is fearful but you don't see it (one of mine is fearful in new situations and it shows as him being hyper vigilant and forward) maybe she is very touch sensitive, maybe she got told off harshly before and feels the need to protect herself etc etc. there could be loads of reasons.

If I were you I wouldn't follow her around, I can see what you're hoping to achieve but it is likely to achieve the exact opposite. Even if you can get the dog to not growl at you, all you're doing is suppressing it. Next step for her is to leave out the growl and go straight for a nip. And you'd be leaving your mother in law to deal with it.

Personally, I think you should try to win the dogs trust, not by being some mythical beacon of calm energy but by being fair and patient with her. Reward her for any nice interactions and ignore or walk away from anything not so nice. If she is asking for space, respect that.

The fact you're there for a while, it's perfect for you to observe her interactions with your mother in law an maybe see where the problem is coming from.

You could do some gentle hands off obedience training with her and show your mother in law how positive force free training can help win dogs like this over. Trainers like kiko pup on YouTube or Victoria Stilwell have some great videos on kinder, dog and owner friendly training methods.

In my experience, all dogs respond well to these gentle methods, even your "dangerous" breeds.

Edit: op look up nando brown in the doghouse on YouTube. Fabulous trainer, lovely guy and has a Doberman, a very sweet little staffy (who gives the best chin kisses) and is currently getting a Belgian malinois. He's great and his videos are very informative.

Fair play for trying to help your mother in law by the way. It can't be nice living with a do you fear.

cocker5

OP ahh I know what you mean….
like you my cocker with a lot of work (now 9) is an amazing dog, very well behaved (well most of them time anyway), it took lots of persistence and time but we got there in the end….
but if I was faced with an aggressive senior dog I just wouldn’t know what to do…. as I wouldn’t have any experience nor am I trained in the correct methods etc.

I know you’re only looking out for your mum in law etc., and theres nothing enjoyable about a dog growling and snapping all the time I know but at 8 I think I’d consulate a professional and your mother in law must be 100% involved or it won’t work.

maggiepip

The method you want to use with the dog is a really bad one. No doubt youve seen Cesar Milan use it. It will achieve nothing at all, but what it will do is frighten the dog and increase whatever insecurities and fears the dog already has. You know I watched one of Cesar Milans shows where he used this method on a dog who used to growl sometimes at the owners. This dog growled but had never bitten. The very next day after Cesar Milan used the "pinning down" method the dog bit for the first time, then there was real trouble. As cocker5 said you cannot just go over and cure the dog. So the only way to help is to find a behaviourist to work with your mother in law, and one who doesnt use dominance techniques.

StickyIcky

Hi again cocker5. Yea that's the problem I think that she just kind of 'accepts' that's the way she is. I doubt that she'll agree to get a behaviourist in and if she does even then she might only do it because I've talked her into it. But I'll try. Training a dog does take a lot of time and persistence alright. It's an investment though! My dog understands me and I understand him. It's very rewarding.

Hi Whispered. So you don't think dogs ever growl based on dominance? I always try to win the dogs trust and I believe that being calm around them isn't a mythical tactic but a very real life one. I believe dogs react positively to calmness. If you're calm and you speak to them in calm soothing tones they pick that up, at least my dogs do and that could be something they've 'learnt' but I believe all animals can sense calm vs stressed. I agree being fair and patient is definitely also very beneficial and something that I always try and do. I agree giving a dog space is important and listening to it tell you who close it's comfortable with you coming. This could take time but generally in my experience with the dogs I've met they tend to warm up to me pretty quickly. I'll check out those videos you told me about, I'm always keen to find new dog training videos. I've a few channels I've subscribed too where the trainers use new school methods and have really really well trained dogs. Thanks Yes my 'dangerous breeds' exactly.. I do air quotes whenever I use the word dangerous breed. Like If I have him muzzled in public and people ask 'does he bite' I say no but according to breed specific legislation hes "dangerous" I just like big dogs.

StickyIcky

Hi maggiepip

Yea I hear ya. I'm not going to try that method. I was unsure if it was work or not. I thought it probably would. But I Was unsure, because I've learn't a lot about dog training in the recent years that have gone against what I was originally taught, so thought I would come here and clarify first. I will recommending a dog behaviourist.


Thanks again everyone else.

Whispered

StickyIcky wrote: »

Hi Whispered. So you don't think dogs ever growl based on dominance?

I think it depends on what you mean by dominance. If you mean the desire to be in charge of a human then no.

In Ireland they are not dangerous according to bsl. They are classed as restricted. I know it's just a word, but I'm a bit pedantic about it my issue not yours.

Edit: I agree with you re being calm btw, but I think it's as important to have a good understanding of how dogs learn. Some trainers trade on very Cesar Milan type methods which revolve around "calm assertive energy" bullying a dog into "submission" and very little actual knowledge.

StickyIcky

"I think it depends on what you mean by dominance."

... I thought about what I meant by "dominance" and honestly... I don't really know It's just a term that i've heard of before and if it's not fear based aggression then the other type would be dominance based aggression. I know this is very wrong and uneducated of me so if you want to share what you think on this topic or even point me at an article to read by all means What does dominance mean? I guess when I said dominance I mean like she's not scared. Like in humans generally you fight because you're scared you're angry. So by domance aggression I mean anger aggression, or just pure aggression aggression. I know I'm being unclear, as I don't really know what I'm talking about maybe

My issue is breed specific legislation not semantics or pedantics It may be called 'restricted' but the meaning behind it to me says they're restricted because they must be dangerous, or they've a much higher risk of being dangerous. So since my dog is in that breed, he's to be treated as if hes' dangerous. I think it's unfair (he has to wear a muzzle and he always looks so defeated and sad when I put it on him. He doesn't like it and he doesn't understand. He just stands there looking sad, really.)

There's really nothing you can do except own a 'dangerous dog' raise the dog to be loving and tender and be an amazing ambassador for your breed.

Whispered

On the dangerous/restricted argument, I agree that having your dog be a good ambassador is hugely important. I personally would never refer to mine as dangerous and I would always correct someone if they did. I think the misuse of terms adds a lot of confusion in every walk of life. But again that's just me and it's totally off topic. Sorry

DBB

When dealing with an aggressive dog, you should never, ever deliberately put the dog into the position where she feels she has to use any aggression towards you.
If you do, you're doing it wrong
(Take note, Mr. Milan).
OP, it has been well and truly disproven that dogs are motivated by a desire to be the dominant life-form in their home. The truth is far, far simpler: if doing something works for the dog, the dog will do it again.
So, if a dog is concerned about being handled, or is feeling worried that her rest is going to be disturbed by the owner sitting next to them, or is afraid that the owner is going to try to take something valued from them, or is worried that they're about to be scolded, then they'll do what ALL animals do (ourselves included): they'll protect themselves. The fact that your MIL's little dog has rarely bitten is a sure sign that the dog is trying her very hardest to issue lots of warnings before she has to resort to biting when her warnings are ignored.
If they find that growling or snapping makes the person leave them be, they'll use aggression again in this scenario. If the human ignores these not-so-subtle warnings, and continues to do what the dog is trying to tell them to stop doing, then they're bound to get bitten. In fact, dogs have a lot of early-warnings they give out before they resort to snapping and growling, which can be rather subtle, but if we ignore them, the dog has to escalate her level of warning. If she's punished for using any warnings, e.g. scolded or slapped or pinned down for growling, she will pretty quickly stop using these warnings at all (because they're not working for her), and go straight from nothing to a bite. Many humans call these bites "unprovoked", but in fact, in the vast majority of cases they are provoked, and have been provoked for a long, long time.
Aggression is a behaviour that is a symptom of an underlying emotion. That emotion in most cases of aggression is fear, anxiety, or frustration. Often, there's conflict going on too, the dog oscillating between all these emotions.
When dealing with the behaviour (which is a symptom), it is absolutely critical that the underlying emotion is addressed. Until it is addressed, the aggression will remain.
And the problem with the techniques you've suggested, techniques also used by Cesar Milan, is that they attempt to address the behaviour alone. They attempt to suppress the aggression (i.e. suppress the symptom), rather than addressing the actual underlying emotional problem. Suppressing the symptom does nothing to suppress the underlying emotion, and in fact, invariably makes the dog more frightened, more anxious, more frustrated, more conflicted.
And whilst the dog might not show aggression for a little while because those techniques have made the dog afraid to exhibit aggression, the day inevitably comes where that underlying emotion explodes through, by-passing that artificial suppression of the symptom, and the dog is not only snapping and growling, but biting, and doing serious damage.
And all of this leads me to exhort that you take huge care to get a properly qualified behaviourist to help your mother in law with her dog: the world is full of self-titled cowboys, who fall into the same trap of suppressing the symptom of aggression, rather than dealing with the actual problem. Whereabouts in the world is she, as with any luck there's an organisation that someone here knows where you can find a properly qualified and certified behaviourist (not a trainer). Another advantage to getting a properly certified behaviourist is that their consults are covered by many pet insurance companies (in other counties at least), so if your MIL has her dog insured, she can claim for the vet visit, the behavioural consult, and all equipment and medication that vet and behaviourist prescribe to help with this particular problem.

StickyIcky

Very good DBB as always you've opened my eyes just a little bit more.

Dogs do things because they've learnt it works. I must remember that. If you're dealing with an aggressive dog you should never put the dog in a position where it has to be aggressive. If you do, you're doing it wrong. Is another good one.

It's a bit of a pity for my MIL and my MIL dog too. Why, because I don't see this relationship between them improving. I don't like my MIL has the will power to make the big effort that is required.

Just out of curiosity. I have this idea that if you get a puppy and you raise it with lots of love and affection and you raise it as part of the family and you learn to communicate with it, i.e. you show it how to understand you (for example I remember when my pups 'get' a command and they seem excited to discover they're understanding you) or if you understand it. Like you said basically by reading all it's subtle body languages, which can happen in a flash. By doing all this I believe that 95% of the time you'll end up with a happy loving well adjusted balanced well mannered dog. Is that true or are some dogs really just not affectionate and would prefer you to leave them alone like my MIL dog? Or is my MIL dog like that because something not ideal happened to it?

I ask because a) I wonder why my MIL dog is likely to be such an angry wee ****e b) because I hope I never get a puppy and it grows up to be like that.

Whispered

I'm on my phone so can't link at the moment, please forgive the scattered way this info is going to come.

My understanding of the word dominance, as normally used, is that it refers to a dog who wants to be the boss. Am I right?

I believe some dogs are pushy and rude and want to get their own way. But I don't believe it has anything to do with dominance.

There are loads of reasons for aggression and not all of them will be obvious. Fear aggression, learned aggression, possessive aggression (guarding), predatory, territorial, redirected. None of these are associated with status seeking.

So for example, a lot of people will say their dog is being dominant if they wont move from the sofa. Doesn't it make more sense that they dog wants to stay there because it's comfortable. Not because it feels being there makes it the boss.

Or a dog growling over food is doing so because eating is a pleasurable experience and he doesn't want you to take it away. Yes it's behaviour that should be managed or trained away, but at not status seeking behaviour.

I'm not sure if that makes sense. There are a few links in the forum if you want to look. I'm sorry I can't link at the moment.

StickyIcky

Hi Whispered, it's grand. I understand you perfectly. Yea dominance usually means wants to be the boss right. Learned aggression is probably what she has. It makes total sense everything you said about food and the sofa. It's how we would react in a similar situation after all. What do you mean I have to get up off the sofa I like it here!

I was just talking with my wife explaining everything that's been said her today and she understands and agrees, as do I.

Edit : This forum is very good I always tend to learn a thing or two when I come here. Now I really should get on with the things I need to do and get off the internets.

I'll be back in a few days. Until then. It's been swell!

DBB

Lol, it's true you know... just like humans, there's little doubt that some dogs are just born grumpy!
Without doubt, this tendency is more to be expected from certain types of dog: terriers are a case in point, as are some of the toy breeds. I'm not trying to diss either, not at all, but certainly in the case of terriers, they have a genetic predisposition to being more emotionally independent, enjoying their own space (when it suits them), and reacting badly when somebody comes along and tries to thwart them in their attempts to suit themselves! Terriers are just less tolerant, generally, as are a number of the Toy breeds. And Cockers (sorry Cocker5:o).
That's not to say that all terriers, Toys, or Cockers are demons, but there is certainly a greater tendency in them than there is in other, milder-mannered breeds and types.
So, whilst dogs will always repeat what works for them, we also have to bear in mind that there will always be a huge dollop of inherited tendency at work too.
As a general rule, if you train your dogs in a positive way which is free from unacceptable levels of aversion, and if you interact with your dogs in a positive, non-aversive way, and if you correct unwanted behaviours without getting into physical conflict or abuse, the chances are that everything will work out really well, as your dog has no reason to resent stuff that you do with it.
However, the genetically determined element to behaviour most certainly means that some dogs, even when nicely trained and treated, can have their moments. If, during these "moments", the dog realises they got a good outcome from it, then the learned element kicks in. The links between genetically determined behaviour, and learned behaviour, are inextricable.
And there's no avoiding the fact that some breeds, and some individuals, are incredibly tolerant of our failings, and remain wonderful, steady dogs despite us making mistakes, and despite some of us being downright nasty to them.