Should a team throw a game to avoid the Europa League?

mike65

On Sunday Spurs go into their final game at home against Aston Villa on 66 points and +1 g/d, Manchester Utd are away to Soton on 63 points and +21 g/d.

So if Spurs lose (unlikely) and Utd win (more likely but hardly a banker) then Manchester Utd will have the Europa League to play in rather than the MLS Legends and a Malaysian Select XI and such like.

Now given the long and winding nature of the tournament and winning the final is probably only a 15% chance even for Man Utd (you just know the best of the rest sides from Italy, Spain and Portugal will be as competitive as ever) and that all the extra games will have some effect on domestic form is is worth not trying too hard at St Mary's and "hoping" for a nice draw?

Equally should Spurs bring the curtain down at home for Tactics Tim by throwing a game against Villa and hope Utds professional pride gets the better of them if Soton can't?

Liverpool not qualifying for the EL was the best thing to happen to club can the team that avoids it use that to get one over on the other (and Everton) in the PL race next season?

bad2dabone

If it was Arsenal in Man Uniteds position I would want us to try to win the game. The Europa is a much derided competition, yeah. And it puts a strain on the squad. But if one thinks of it as a European Carling Cup then there’s an opportunity – in the earlier stages at least – to play some of the younger players, integrate them into the first team. Also given the fact that Arsenal’s European trophy count currently stands at 2 (a cup winners cup and….a Fairs Cup) I’d prefer the chance of increasing that trophy count than none at all.

Then again there’s no doubt that having no European competition allowed Liverpool to have a valuable rest between games which contributed to their best league performance in many many years, and since United need to return to CL football again next season I would assume that not having the burden of the Europa League would appeal to them. So while I’m sure they won’t go out to throw the game, I wouldn’t be surprised if United’s motivation wasn’t that high at the weekend.

Iang87

Last season I'd agree but doesnt the winner of next seasons europa league get into the champions league. Could arguably be an easier route than the top 4. You can make quarter finals of europa league without ever really killing yourself if you've a decent side

Will I Amnt

Iang87 wrote: »

Last season I'd agree but doesnt the winner of next seasons europa league get into the champions league. Could arguably be an easier route than the top 4. You can make quarter finals of europa league without ever really killing yourself if you've a decent side

I'd say it would be easier to get top 4 without the distraction of Europa League than win the Europa League. That goes for both United and Spurs.

Will I Amnt

Both teams will be out to win Sunday anyway. The answer to the OP is and always should be no. There's never an acceptable time to throw a game. Fans can of course be happy if losing has an upside.

homerjay2005

United probably wont be Southampton anyway so Spurs have it sown up no matter how they get on.

AgileMyth

There's a serious problem with football when European competition is seen as a burden.

SantryRed

AgileMyth wrote: »

There's a serious problem with football when European competition is seen as a burden.

It's only seen as a burden in England though. Everywhere else it is a lot more respected.

Will I Amnt

AgileMyth wrote: »

There's a serious problem with football when European competition is seen as a burden.

As with everything, different standards apply to different situations.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Next year if you win the europa league you get automatic champions league qualification as far as I remember. It will actually be worth winning next year so it might incentivise teams a bit more.

doc_17

Europa League isn't really worth being in for the money but if it effected your UEFA Coefficient the maybe. But it's a disaster of a competition. Too many games. I wouldn't want to play in it if I was Man U or Spurs

Agueroooo

The Europa would be perfect for a side like Utd who have a massive squad, and Spurs also aint too thin either.

wouldn't have to play any first teamers and would be invaluable experience for those looking to break into any first team.

jonnyfingers

As a United supporter I would dearly love to see us in the Europa league next year. Top teams should be looking to play in every competition possible.

ronjo

The one big benefit of the Europa league is the coefficients.

Look at the amount of points Benfica have won the last two seasons in it which will give them a number 1 seeding in Champions league.
Liverpool have dropped into the mid 30s I think now in Europe due to not qualifying when they were number 1 only a few years ago.

Not sure if that good, outweighes all the bad but it certainly helps

Neil3030

The suggestion on Football Weekly from some time ago is the best I've heard:

Since everyone wants Champion's League football, and nobody really wants Europa League, you reward the final positions in the table as thus:

Places 1 - 4: Champion's League Qualification
Place 5: Avoid Europa League
Places 6 - 17: Europa League
Places 18 - 20: Relegation

This way, teams can battle it out to avoid first relegation, and then further compete to avoid the Europa. Year round incentive for teams to win!

:pac:

Paz-CCFC

And likely end up dropping to 2nd seeds for future Champions League group stage draws? That, along with the prize money and gate receipts, which would be in the tens of millions combined, would be a good incentive. Oh, and not to forget the chance to win European silverware.

SantryRed wrote: »

It's only seen as a burden in England though. Everywhere else it is a lot more respected.

I always see that as an excuse for the failings of England's Europa League entrants. The usual rubbish of getting knocked out of a cup "Oh, we didn't want to win it anyway, we wanted to concentrate on the league instead". Bollocks, every team wants to win every competition they enter into. Middlesborough, Fulham, Chelsea and Liverpool certainly took it seriously when they went on a run in the Europa League/UEFA Cup in recent times.

DoctorEdgeWild

As a United fan, I would rather we try to win every single game we play.

I also want to be involved in as many competitions as possible - European away days, the chance of a semi-final/final and the excitement that comes with it, the chance of silverware - These are some of the reasons it is great that the team you support is/becomes successful.

That_Guy

Isn't the object of football to be ambitious? Pisses me off when teams don't take it seriously.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't they changing the rules so that the winner of the Europa gets into the Champions League?

user2011

Seriously? Calling into question clubs reputation that they would lose a game on purpose?

It's fans talking on forums of how they perceive what the EL does to clubs in it, I very much doubt this is the way people in clubs look at things.

brevity

Did that team who are on the outskirts of China qualify for the Europa League?

Morzadec

United and SPurs both have big squads with young players who would thrive on the experience.

Play a 'League Cup' style team in the group stages. Then see where you are in the league once the group stages come around (if you get that far - if you don't the fans won't complain that the kids and backup players couldn't get the job done). If you are floundering and 4th looks a remote possibility, go all out for Europa. If you are in a good league position at this stage, keep going with the B team. Fans will understand.

There's a way of approaching the Europa League that it can be a no-lose situation imo.

Clubs like Newcastle and Swansea will struggle with the quality of the depth of their squad.

With the sizes of the squads/money spent by United and Spurs, the Europa League could be a fruitful experience for them

anncoates

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Next year if you win the europa league you get automatic champions league qualification as far as I remember. It will actually be worth winning next year so it might incentivise teams a bit more.

It's always been worth winning back to UEFA cup days.

Fair enough, I can understand that the CL is where it's at financially for clubs, but this idea that it's such a embarrassment for supporters to end up in it is a bit laughable, especially amongst Irish supporters of European arriviste clubs like Chelsea and Manchester City.

I'd like United to win it, personally.

mike65

brevity wrote: »

Did that team who are on the outskirts of China qualify for the Europa League?

Luch Vladivostok I think you are referring to? Nope!

Prop Joe

If you win the Europa you could earn up to 10 mil so that goes to pay the guts of 10% of wages for Prem Lge squads

PLUS i'm nearly sure the Europa winners are now guaranteed Champ Lge qualification for the following season...So would it be better to forget concentrating on the league and the battle for 4th a target winning the Europa?

ArmaniJeanss

Agueroooo wrote: »

The Europa would be perfect for a side like Utd who have a massive squad, and Spurs also aint too thin either.

wouldn't have to play any first teamers and would be invaluable experience for those looking to break into any first team.

Not really that simple in practise - you can only put in a squad of 25 to cover the group phase and part of your contract with UEFA is that it is the strongest squad of 25 that is available to you (admittedly I'm not sure how strict they are over this but I presume they or their sponsors don't let clubs take the piss).

Then you need to select a match day squad of 20 from this - all it takes is a few normal injuries and suspensions to your 'backups' and quickly enough you are using your strongest XI for a Thursday night game in Western Turkey or Russia.

greendom

If you look at the results the likes of Swansea, Newcastle and Spurs gained on Sundays after playing away Europa League matches on a Thursday, it would seriously make you think about qualifying for it. Having said that a squad of Man U's size should be able to cope with those demands and maybe even benefit by being able to blood young and reserve players.

SantryRed

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Not really that simple in practise - you can only put in a squad of 25 to cover the group phase and part of your contract with UEFA is that it is the strongest squad of 25 that is available to you (admittedly I'm not sure how strict they are over this but I presume they or their sponsors don't let clubs take the piss).

Then you need to select a match day squad of 20 from this - all it takes is a few normal injuries and suspensions to your 'backups' and quickly enough you are using your strongest XI for a Thursday night game in Western Turkey or Russia.

Aren't all players under 21 exempt from having to be registered though?

aodea

It needed to be revamped and has been as far as im aware winner gets champs leauge

A trophy is a trophy. chelsea fans certainly celbrated winning it. Spanish teams take it seriosly and if your a like spurs or everton playing in europe will help you if you get to the champs leauge at some point.

I think thier is huge merits to the competion and a club should never look to lose or draw a match to avoid it. I would like to think that no club would do such a thing.

The winners of next seasons Europa Cup is into the Champions league so one team is gonna benefit greatly.

I hope Hull win it

Sideshow Mark

Didn't do Chelsea any harm. If you want to be a consistent top 4 premier league club you need to be competing in Europe every year with a big squad which is good enough to cope with the additional games.

rightyabe

Isn't there a secenario that if arsenal win the FA cup that the team in in 7th will qualify for Europe?

Or was I dreaming I heard it?

rightyabe

rightyabe wrote: »

Isn't there a secenario that if arsenal win the FA cup that the team in in 7th will qualify for Europe?

Or was I dreaming I heard it?

I think they needed to finish outside top 4.

Richard Hillman

I would say it could be easier for Spurs or United to try and focus all their attention to win the Uefa Cup and get into the Champions League than getting 4th spot.

Will I Amnt

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I would say it could be easier for Spurs or United to try and focus all their attention to win the Uefa Cup and get into the Champions League than getting 4th spot.

I wouldn't.

Will I Amnt

anncoates wrote: »

It's always been worth winning back to UEFA cup days.

Fair enough, I can understand that the CL is where it's at financially for clubs, but this idea that it's such a embarrassment for supporters to end up in it is a bit laughable, especially amongst Irish supporters of European arriviste clubs like Chelsea and Manchester City.

I'd like United to win it, personally.

Don't think anybody is saying it's an embarrassment.

dfx-

I could accept not wanting to be in it.

What I don't get is that once you're in it, then not to bother with it. If you're in it, the Europa League is not beneath you like perhaps some clubs treat it.

Eirebear

The disrespect shown by English teams to the europa league is arrogant beyond belief.

Will I Amnt

Eirebear wrote: »

The disrespect shown by English teams to the europa league is arrogant beyond belief.

Why? Which clubs have stated it was beneath them or didn't want to be in it?

Godge

ronjo wrote: »

The one big benefit of the Europa league is the coefficients.

Look at the amount of points Benfica have won the last two seasons in it which will give them a number 1 seeding in Champions league.
Liverpool have dropped into the mid 30s I think now in Europe due to not qualifying when they were number 1 only a few years ago.

Not sure if that good, outweighes all the bad but it certainly helps

I agree.

If Utd. don't qualify for the Europa League, they will only pick up whatever ranking points accrue to England as a country. This would mean they would almost certainly not be a top seeding any more.

For Spurs, a failure to qualify would mean being a third seed rather than a second seed.

Of course, a failure to qualify for a number of years would lead to a further drop down the rankings - Liverpool will be a third seed next year.

dfx-

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Why? Which clubs have stated it was beneath them or didn't want to be in it?

You don't have to state it, you can often see by team selection. Villa and Tottenham immediately spring to mind. Not just that but form in the league too. I wonder if you offered Newcastle a place in the Europa League would they swap it for 9th or 10th.

greendom

dfx- wrote: »

You don't have to state it, you can often see by team selection. Villa and Tottenham immediately spring to mind. Not just that but form in the league too. I wonder if you offered Newcastle a place in the Europa League would they swap it for 9th or 10th.

Europa league football, playing football week in, week out, demands that you use your squad to the fullest.

Will I Amnt

dfx- wrote: »

You don't have to state it, you can often see by team selection. Villa and Tottenham immediately spring to mind. Not just that but form in the league too. I wonder if you offered Newcastle a place in the Europa League would they swap it for 9th or 10th.

Tottenham are doing exactly what they've been doing every other season, finishing the season poorly, not that they've been great or anything early on.
Is their team selection all that odd considering the squad they have to choose from? I've honestly never seen as little of Tottenham in a season as I have this one, they're never on TV.

upstairs for coffee

Absolutely not. Especially a club like Utd. Is a great chance play youth and squad players.

gucci

SantryRed wrote: »

It's only seen as a burden in England though. Everywhere else it is a lot more respected.

in other leagues (Italy Spain etc) football is mostly traditionally scheduled on Sundays, whereas in England its traditionally mostly on Saturdays.

this common "no time to recover" is a cheap lazy excuse used by press/managers/players which has gathered momentum based on the fact that English clubs have mostly treated the europa league as a waste of time,therefore having poor results in it europa league and it having a knock on effect to their home league .

The value isn't there money wise for the premiership clubs,they are only interested in money,and they are spoiled in the premiership in comparison to other leagues. They want the cash cow champions league or nothing basically, they just dress it up in a myriad of excuses otherwise.

COYVB

The biggest problem with the EL is that CL teams get "relegated" into it. That's done it absolutely no favours in terms of the way it's viewed. Not good enough for the top 2 in your CL group? Never mind, try this competition instead

Mickey mouse decision that was

citytillidie

There is only 2 extra games in the main Europa League compared to the Champions League, just one team has to start in the 3rd qualifying round

Lukker-

It would be a bit more valued if the FA helped the teams in Europe a bit more by moving the fixtures around. More games should be moved to Sunday and Monday.

But it is seriously under-valued IMO, even monetarily. Chelsea had the highest earnings last year of any of the English teams in Europe, from both prize money and TV money.

Lukker-

Lukker- wrote: »

It would be a bit more valued if the FA helped the teams in Europe a bit more by moving the fixtures around. More games should be moved to Sunday and Monday.

But it is seriously under-valued IMO, even monetarily. Chelsea had the highest earnings last year of any of the English teams in Europe, from both prize money and TV money.

Teams that play in the Europa do have their games moved to Sunday

COYVB

COYVB wrote: »

The biggest problem with the EL is that CL teams get "relegated" into it. That's done it absolutely no favours in terms of the way it's viewed. Not good enough for the top 2 in your CL group? Never mind, try this competition instead

Mickey mouse decision that was

Yeah, I agree.

Lukker-

rarnes1 wrote: »

Teams that play in the Europa do have their games moved to Sunday

I think they are generally, but they should even be moved to Monday's then.

I'm also fairly certain that due to scheduling some games do end up getting played on the Saturday.

Lukker-

Lukker- wrote: »

I think they are generally, but they should even be moved to Monday's then.

I'm also fairly certain that due to scheduling some games do end up getting played on the Saturday.

I dunno. I was under the impression all teams involved in the Europa play on Sundays as of 2/3 seasons ago (I think)