Luas - pointless stops

lolosaur

Mueseum - at best, the luas should only stop there from 9-5.

rarely anyone gets on or off there and nothing that cant be achieved from heuston or Smithfield. even Smith field and the forecourts should have been amalgamated into one stop halfway between the two stops.

Georges dock by the IFSC/Busarus is another absolutely pointless stop.


Goldenbridge is another pointless stop that seems to only serve a disused industrial estate and the marble arch. pointless.

rialto and fatima. ****holes get all the funding, get as many tramps and hobos in as possible. Great! the luas could have been set up better to capitalise on the catchment areas around there but instead their regenerative scheme has just meant spunking a shedload on upkeep and security in those areas.

What are your most underwhelmingly useless luas stops?

Will the new batch be as unbareably insignificant as this lot?

ongarboy

You seem to be mixing up pointless stops with off peak usage. Georges Dock is very busy during working hours and not just IFSC workers and local residents. A lot of southside workers who use the Sean O'Casey footbridge would connect to the Luas at the Georges Dock stop. Why is it so pointless?

I've often used Museum stop when I used to change buses in Stoneybatter to head westwards for appts I had in Tallaght. There was always decent patronage by commuters at that stop in both directions well before 9am and after 5pm when I was using it. Most work commuters have to travel before or after the times you propose as pointless.

I agree that Four Courts and Smithfield are on top of each other and one would suffice.

I think all the new stops proposed on the cross city line will be highly used as the new line will go through the highest concentrations of pedestrian footfall in the city.

Either way, how is it's perceived insignificance unbearable to you? A bit OTT, no?

ProudDUB

I used to live in the apts just behind the Georges Dock stop. You can't see it very well from the Luas itself, as there are offices directly in front of it, but it is a massive development. There are a lot of people living and/or working right where the stop is, so the stop is far from pointless. As another poster said, the stop is convenient for people crossing the river by the footbridge. The stop can be quiet enough on weekends and in late evening, but it gets well used at other times.

The Busaras stop can take time to walk to, as you have cross a wide road and to wait for the lights at Amiens St to change. Then there are the junkies hanging around the Busaras stop, that don't seem to congregate at the Georges Dock stop. I feel perfectly safe using my phone at Georges Dock. There is no way it even gets taken out of my bag at Busaras.

lolosaur

if you can read the luas timetable sign at the next stop from the stop you are at, it is a pointless stop

Jamie2k9

As someone who lives on the Red Line in the IFSC, the stops are well used and just because there are not very busy late evenings doesn't mean they should be dropped.

I do however believe the Four Courts could be dropped after 7pm in principal however it's very likely the trains will have to stop waiting for a signal anyway so dropping the stop will defeat the purpose and with this in mind allow people use the stop could only add around 10-15 seconds which is nothing.

wicklowwonder

lolosaur wrote: »

if you can read the luas timetable sign at the next stop from the stop you are at, it is a pointless stop

What Luas stop can you read the next timetable sign?

Smithfield in a very busy stop all the time in my view, lots of people live in and around the square. Four Courts and Museum can be quiet. I don't know why at off peak times they don't operate a system like Melbourne, where you ring a bell if you want to use stops outside of the city centre and a person boarding the tram puts out their hand like you would to stop a bus when boarding.

Jamie2k9

wicklowwonder wrote: »

What Luas stop can you read the next timetable sign?

Smithfield in a very busy stop all the time in my view, lots of people live in and around the square. Four Courts and Museum can be quiet. I don't know why at off peak times they don't operate a system like Melbourne, where you ring a bell if you want to use stops outside of the city centre and a person boarding the tram puts out their hand like you would to stop a bus when boarding.

As I said above you will not get a clear run at Four Courts without stopping at the station anyway waiting for the signal. Not a issue at Museam.

wicklowwonder

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

As I said above you will not get a clear run at Four Courts without stopping at the station anyway waiting for the signal. Not a issue at Museam.

My idea would be to use the bell at all stops bar Heuston beyond say Smithfield and Bus Aras.

lolosaur

wicklowwonder wrote: »

My idea would be to use the bell at all stops bar Heuston beyond say Smithfield and Bus Aras.

Having been a frequenter of the red line since it opened, i can confirm that a bell system, going on the merits of the passenger that travels on the red line, would most likely cause chaos or be broken within 2 stops of a luas journey.

AngryLips

lolosaur wrote: »

Having been a frequenter of the red line since it opened, i can confirm that a bell system, going on the merits of the passenger that travels on the red line, would most likely cause chaos or be broken within 2 stops of a luas journey.

Seems to work perfectly fine for buses that serve the same neighbourhoods.

smellmepower

Kids aren't hopping on and off buses in those areas for free like they do on the Luas though!

Aard

It's very rare that there isn't at least one person boarding or alighting at any given stop. Also just not the done thing with light rail.

dogmatix

And the green line also. The two stops at Sandyford - Stillorgan and Sandyford just 200 metre or so from each other. Apart from the strange naming of the stops (the sandyford stop is closet to the old stillorgan railway station), I could never understand the logic of this – why did they not simply have a single stop midway opposite arkle road?

markpb

dogmatix wrote: »

And the green line also. The two stops at Sandyford - Stillorgan and Sandyford just 200 metre or so from each other. Apart from the strange naming of the stops (the sandyford stop is closet to the old stillorgan railway station), I could never understand the logic of this – why did they not simply have a single stop midway opposite arkle road?

The names are truncated which makes them appear not to make sense. Stillorgan is for Stillorgan business park and Sandyford is for Sandyford industrial estate.

Its worth keeping in mind that both stops serve thousands of people as well as a huge P&R park.

Aard

Always thought the Stillorgan stop would have been better placed on the other side of the road. Or better yet below grade under the junction.

xper

dogmatix wrote: »

And the green line also. The two stops at Sandyford - Stillorgan and Sandyford just 200 metre or so from each other. Apart from the strange naming of the stops (the sandyford stop is closet to the old stillorgan railway station), I could never understand the logic of this – why did they not simply have a single stop midway opposite arkle road?

Yeah, they share the same car park. I suspect that reasoning for such close pairs of stops is that a single stop's platform could become overcrowded during peak hours given the trip generators of the surrounding area. Two stops spreads the load on the system's vehicles and infrastructure.

lolosaur

xper wrote: »

Yeah, they share the same car park. I suspect that reasoning for such close pairs of stops is that a single stop's platform could become overcrowded during peak hours given the trip generators of the surrounding area. Two stops spreads the load on the system's vehicles and infrastructure.

There is no way someone thought that far ahead and with that much logic for that to happen!

AngryLips

But both stops are heavily used - how are they pointless?

lolosaur

AngryLips wrote: »

But both stops are heavily used - how are they pointless?

Because they probably could have been amalgamated into one stop for functionality and speed.

The main drawback of the luas is how slow it is and stopping every 10 seconds on outlying stops doesnt help its fluidity.

LXFlyer

lolosaur wrote: »

Because they probably could have been amalgamated into one stop for functionality and speed.

The main drawback of the luas is how slow it is and stopping every 10 seconds on outlying stops doesnt help its fluidity.

It is hardly going to make that much difference - 30 seconds at most. Trams on the Green Line are hardly stopping every 10 seconds - let's not exaggerate this. You are talking about two of the busiest stops on the Green line in their own right, which are located at the end of the line for over 50% of services.

Cinephille1888

I've failed to see any actual reasoning why any of the stops mentioned are as redundant as OP believes.

They do have passenger traffic on and off-peak. Slow times does not remove this demand.

"If I can't see it, it's not happening".

Smithfield and Four Courts are close, but as others have said, they're busy at times, and make plenty of money.

I also know of no Luas stop where you can see the Real time display at the next stop. I can see the obelisk, but not read it.

I've even thought a Capel street stop may have been nice... but that's TOO close together.

markpb

lolosaur wrote: »

Because they probably could have been amalgamated into one stop for functionality and speed.

The main drawback of the luas is how slow it is and stopping every 10 seconds on outlying stops doesnt help its fluidity.

Luas has some drawbacks but I'm not sure that speed is one of them. It averages 27.5kph from St Stephens Green to Sandyford. Dart averages 28.5kph from Pearse to Dun Laoghaire so it's not noticeably slower.

lolosaur

markpb wrote: »

Luas has some drawbacks but I'm not sure that speed is one of them. It averages 27.5kph from St Stephens Green to Sandyford. Dart averages 28.5kph from Pearse to Dun Laoghaire so it's not noticeably slower.

including stops?

markpb

lolosaur wrote: »

including stops?

Yup, end to end.

lolosaur

now imagine if they did 35 and 40 respectively!

Also, what was the av. this morning......

nokia69

Cinephille1888 wrote: »

I've failed to see any actual reasoning why any of the stops mentioned are as redundant as OP believes.

They do have passenger traffic on and off-peak. Slow times does not remove this demand.

"If I can't see it, it's not happening".

Smithfield and Four Courts are close, but as others have said, they're busy at times, and make plenty of money.

I also know of no Luas stop where you can see the Real time display at the next stop. I can see the obelisk, but not read it.

I've even thought a Capel street stop may have been nice... but that's TOO close together.

but if you got rid of the four courts or the smithfield stop then people would just have to walk a little bit more to the next stop but the journey times would be better for everybody

dublin bus has the same problems too many bus stops too close together

just look at the distance between the connolly and busaras stop, its a joke

lolosaur

nokia69 wrote: »

but if you got rid of the four courts or the smithfield stop then people would just have to walk a little bit more to the next stop but the journey times would be better for everybody

dublin bus has the same problems too many bus stops too close together

just look at the distance between the connolly and busaras stop, its a joke

If the bus didnt drop me that 12 feet closer to busarus, i wouldnt have a clue where to go or how to get there.

Judgement Day

lolosaur wrote: »

If the bus didnt drop me that 12 feet closer to busarus, i wouldnt have a clue where to go or how to get there.

Apart from the fact that trams have to stop for traffic in both directions - to and from Connolly/Busaras - there's the matter of people with luggage etc. and the two stops are important and busy!

ProudDUB

nokia69 wrote: »

just look at the distance between the connolly and busaras stop, its a joke

No it's not. One stop services a major bus station & the other one is a major train station. Each one needs their own stop. People who are boarding at either one will often have heavy luggage with them. It is common sense that passengers can exit the station and get on a tram straight away.

If there was no stop at Busaras, people who are arriving at Busaras with luggage, would have to cross over Amiens St and then drag their suitcases over to Connolly Station, or down to Georges Dock to catch the tram. Who wants to be doing that? Have you ever lugged a heavy suit case on wheels, up and down a series of street curbs? It's no fun.

It is easy to look at all this thru the eyes of a commuter who is just going to/from work, or popping into town to do some shopping & wants to cut 5 minutes off their journey. But the Luas red line links the busiest bus station in the county, with the two busiest train stations in the country. You have to think about the needs of those travelers too.

monument

lolosaur wrote: »

now imagine if they did 35 and 40 respectively!

Also, what was the av. this morning......

St Stephens Green to Sandyford:

27.5km/h = 21m
35km/h = 16m

What would be needed to up the speed would likely not be justified by the apparent gain of a 5min shorter trip.

nokia69 wrote: »

but if you got rid of the four courts or the smithfield stop then people would just have to walk a little bit more to the next stop but the journey times would be better for everybody

Jervis - Four Courts = 470m
Smithfield - Museum = 550m

Putting a stop in the centre would increase those distances by 150m and 100m -- that would mean 620m and 650m, and those types of distances are on the very long for a high density city centre area.

lolosaur wrote: »

Because they probably could have been amalgamated into one stop for functionality and speed.

The main drawback of the luas is how slow it is and stopping every 10 seconds on outlying stops doesnt help its fluidity.

And that would mean an extra 200m in both directions -- lowering the catchment area, both into the residential areas and industrial estate.

The city end of the small park and ride would be 500m from the stop!

dogmatix wrote: »

And the green line also. The two stops at Sandyford - Stillorgan and Sandyford just 200 metre or so from each other. Apart from the strange naming of the stops (the sandyford stop is closet to the old stillorgan railway station), I could never understand the logic of this – why did they not simply have a single stop midway opposite arkle road?

Because the stops serve a large residential and business area.

BTW Stillorgan to Sandyford is not just 200m, it's ~320m

lolosaur wrote: »

if you can read the luas timetable sign at the next stop from the stop you are at, it is a pointless stop

Do you always carry binocular when walking around the city?

lolosaur wrote: »

Mueseum - at best, the luas should only stop there from 9-5.

rarely anyone gets on or off there and nothing that cant be achieved from heuston or Smithfield. even Smith field and the forecourts should have been amalgamated into one stop halfway between the two stops.

So remove Museum and merge Smithfield into a stop halfway between it and the current Four Courts stop? That would be over 1km between stops in a high density area -- ie crazy!

lolosaur wrote: »

Goldenbridge is another pointless stop that seems to only serve a disused industrial estate and the marble arch. pointless.

Goldenbridge is flanked by large residential areas on both side of the canal!

lolosaur wrote: »

rialto and fatima. ****holes get all the funding, get as many tramps and hobos in as possible. Great! the luas could have been set up better to capitalise on the catchment areas around there but instead....

How would you have better capitalised on the catchment areas without going near the bend to the east of Fatima or the under pass to the west of Rialto?

Cinephille1888

nokia69 wrote: »

but if you got rid of the four courts or the smithfield stop then people would just have to walk a little bit more to the next stop but the journey times would be better for everybody

dublin bus has the same problems too many bus stops too close together

just look at the distance between the connolly and busaras stop, its a joke

The location of the Connolly Luas stop was an afterthought in the design process.

The new entrance was CIE/IÉ compromise for not providing the space the planners originally wanted, as far as I can gather.

The original plan was to go up the old taxi rank and have platforms beside the trainshed.

With an option to expand further north into the car park which had be touted as a possible new bus terminal.

Instead, reasons were given, and the office block above was also alleged to have been another excuse not to do it. A largely empty office known for having many brass plate company's...


The Proximity to Busaras was a compromise of boom-time planning and CIE reluctance to do something sensible.

And within a 2 years the Docklands extension was being trumpeted and the extended carraiges were being called for. So Connolly became a shuttle stop by 2012 and takes alternate trams off-peak.

Took 6 years for the city to put in proper pedestrian crossings on all sides of the junction also. All after the expansion took place.


It no longer is the terminal stop, and thus it's proximity is anomalous as it only serves a separate transport hub now. The Point is somewhat better suited to it's task, being 3 platforms. (Although they've yet to see the landscaping and temporary barriers can't handle crowds at concerts well enough)

Jamie2k9

It no longer is the terminal stop, and thus it's proximity is anomalous as it only serves a separate transport hub now. The Point is somewhat better suited to it's task, being 3 platforms. (Although they've yet to see the landscaping and temporary barriers can't handle crowds at concerts well enough)

That's questionable seem as trams terminate there 12.5 hours per day Monday-Friday every 10 minutes! Having a terminus their gives a lot more flexibility to operators and maintains frequency in the city center when needed.

TBH this threat is a little "pointless"!

D.L.R.

lolosaur wrote: »

Mueseum - at best, the luas should only stop there from 9-5.

rarely anyone gets on or off there and nothing that cant be achieved from heuston or Smithfield. even Smith field and the forecourts should have been amalgamated into one stop halfway between the two stops.

Georges dock by the IFSC/Busarus is another absolutely pointless stop.


Goldenbridge is another pointless stop that seems to only serve a disused industrial estate and the marble arch. pointless.

rialto and fatima. ****holes get all the funding, get as many tramps and hobos in as possible. Great! the luas could have been set up better to capitalise on the catchment areas around there but instead their regenerative scheme has just meant spunking a shedload on upkeep and security in those areas.

What are your most underwhelmingly useless luas stops?

Will the new batch be as unbareably insignificant as this lot?

Largely agree with the thrust of this.. whoever designed the stop layout did a poor job. Same with the green line beyond Dundrum. As for Luas cross city... dear lord what a convoluted mess.

monument

D.L.R. wrote: »

Largely agree with the thrust of this.. whoever designed the stop layout did a poor job. Same with the green line beyond Dundrum. As for Luas cross city... dear lord what a convoluted mess.

Why don't you come up with a better suggestion for stop layout? Because the thrust of what you just agreed with has already been debunked.

D.L.R.

monument wrote: »

Why don't you come up with a better suggestion for stop layout? Because the thrust of what you just agreed with has already been debunked.

Well for a start you only need 2 stops between Heuston and Jervis. Also, the Docklands area is a bit top heavy on stops. I just don't like piss poor planning, and for me the luas displays several examples of this.

But then, I'd have put the luas underground so what do I know :pac:

Jamie2k9

D.L.R. wrote: »

Well for a start you only need 2 stops between Heuston and Jervis. Also, Mayor Square and George's Dock are 200m apart - bit daft that.

But then, I'd have put the luas underground so what do I know :pac:

Change the record....
Mayor Square serves NCI (thousands of students), Hotel and easy access to Gran Canal Dock.

George Dock while close to others it serves large communities living beside the stop, shopping center and some offices.

Luas is about convince and not for what individuals want hence why the personal car exists!

D.L.R.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Change the record....
Mayor Square serves NCI (thousands of students), Hotel and easy access to Gran Canal Dock.

George Dock while close to others it serves large communities living beside the stop, shopping center and some offices.

Luas is about convince and not for what individuals want hence why the personal car exists!

One stop could comfortably serve all the above, as its all within a 200m radius.

Valetta

D.L.R. wrote: »

One stop could comfortably serve all the above, as its all within a 200m radius.

At busy periods one stop would become dangerously congested.

AngryLips

D.L.R. wrote: »

Well for a start you only need 2 stops between Heuston and Jervis. Also, the Docklands area is a bit top heavy on stops.

...But then, I'd have put the luas underground so what do I know :pac:

Sounds like you're just against the whole concept of light rail in favor of underground metro.

monument

D.L.R. wrote: »

But then, I'd have put the luas underground so what do I know :pac:

If you're talking about fully underground (not just cut and cover at a few places), that's at the heart of the problem.

You're trying to apply metro-like design to a high frequency surface system. You need to get over the fact that Luas is not a metro and the same design rules do not apply; and that Luas is highly successful largely due to it's overall design (I'm not saying it's design is perfect) .

markpb

D.L.R. wrote: »

Largely agree with the thrust of this.. whoever designed the stop layout did a poor job. Same with the green line beyond Dundrum. As for Luas cross city... dear lord what a convoluted mess.

Balally - Dense residential area. Lots of offices including one large company (RSA). Has a bit of a shopping Centre right beside it.
Kilmacud - lots of housing estates nearby but doesn't seem overly busy.
Stillorgan - large industrial estate. large Park & ride, lots of housing estates near by
Sandyford - see Stillorgan
With the exception of Kilmacud (without which there would be a huge gap), they seem like excellent choices to me.


Cross-city was designed a compromise to keep Dublin Bus happy (and moving). It's not ideal and I'm not in favour but I'm aware that these things aren't designed in a vacuum.

mikemac1

lolosaur wrote: »

Georges dock by the IFSC/Busarus is another absolutely pointless stop.

Are you using it at weekends and late evenings?

Get off there just before and after office hours and it's heavily used

D.L.R.

monument wrote: »

If you're talking about fully underground (not just cut and cover at a few places), that's at the heart of the problem.

You're trying to apply metro-like design to a high frequency surface system. You need to get over the fact that Luas is not a metro and the same design rules do not apply; and that Luas is highly successful largely due to it's overall design (I'm not saying it's design is perfect) .

Ah come on now monument, its successful because there's demand for people to get from A to B. You're overplaying the surface vs underground "attraction". Its not a fun fair ride - just get people from A to B quickly, that's all they want.

And no, I'm not talking about a "fully underground" system, just a tunnelled core, like Hannover perhaps. Our govt even considered this back when luas was still on the drawing board, but I fear they balked at the cost and too many rural vested interests etc. So they just fudged it by saying "blah blah green line future metro conversion possible" which led directly to the SSG interchange mess whereby Metro North now terminates there, instead of being an extension of an underground green line. THAT would be a fantastic piece of infrastructure, but it'll never happen now. And the sad thing is, it was eminently possible, but this all feeds back to the Irish culture of limited vision, limited ambition and regional self interest. Dublin is great but it could be so much better, thats my gripe. Irish govts all too happy to fork out squillions on bank debt, but a few billion for mass transit in the capital is for some reason not seen as the crucial investment in our economy that it is.

Luas stops too close together is the least of my concerns tbh. Anyway I'm steering this thread off topic, there's plenty of debate to be had around these issues in another thread perhaps, more than happy to do that