water charges

fepper

hi just wondeing do the new water charges affect us farmers that only use 1 meter box to supply water to dwelling house and farm as they said the standing charge will not apply, i pay over 100 euro per year as we prob all do for this standing charge, will that be gone now in end of sept when the new charges comes in

Jonblack

Holiday homes could have a standing charge, so agri supplies will no doubt have one its up to regulator.

whitebriar

As a public supply user,you will have no standing charge but will have a new usage limit,meaning if you have cattle drinking your charge will go sky high as your allowances will be used up in jig time.
I would start saving for a well and pump tbh.

_Brian

whitebriar wrote: »

As a public supply user,you will have no standing charge but will have a new usage limit,meaning if you have cattle drinking your charge will go sky high as your allowances will be used up in jig time.
I would start saving for a well and pump tbh.

I agree for the moment a well seems the best route for farmers..
However it has been muted that a private well tax/charge will happen down the road.. My manager was speaking to someone high up in the council who has transferred into Irish Water and he said that it's more "when" than "if" a private supply charge is brought in..

Muckit

_Brian wrote: »

My manager was speaking to someone high up in the council who has transferred into Irish Water and he said that it's more "when" than "if" a private supply charge is brought in..

WELL now that's just ridiculous

_Brian

Muckit wrote: »

WELL now that's just ridiculous

Indeed..

But, I've heard second hand that some boroughs in the UK charge for all water consumed in their borough both privately pumped and publicaly supplied. This was from a cousin of mine that lives outside London.

Also, just how ridiculous its it really.... We've all paid for our septic tanks !! And they are supplied and maintained by ourselves.. You can be sure the current "registration" fee will increase over time.

Rovi

The State has long asserted its 'ownership' of everything under the surface of the land.
Oil, gas, minerals, etc, are all only legally 'extractable' under licence, and, to the best of my knowledge, there already exists a system of water Abstraction Licences, currently applied to the likes of industry using water from rivers and lakes.
I suspect the legal framework already exists for The State to regulate and licence (and charge for!) all 'abstraction' of ground and surface waters.

Whether it'd be politically possible for it to do so is entirely another matter...

whitebriar

The manager is talking nonsense.
As for being technically possible, it may be but you cannot compulsarly charge for a service not provided or impossible to provide.

That's probably illegal.

That said,I pay a house hold charge for which I've great difficulty figuring out what I get in return.

893bet

_Brian wrote: »

I agree for the moment a well seems the best route for farmers..
However it has been muted that a private well tax/charge will happen down the road.. My manager was speaking to someone high up in the council who has transferred into Irish Water and he said that it's more "when" than "if" a private supply charge is brought in..

Best not tell them about the well so !

fepper

just heard on the radio that the metering charges for farmers and commercial premises will stay the same as was so will continue to fleece us

arctictree

893bet wrote: »

Best not tell them about the well so !

We'll just have to collect rainwater. Shurley they can't charge us for that?!

Nekarsulm

whitebriar wrote: »

The manager is talking nonsense.
As for being technically possible, it may be but you cannot compulsarly charge for a service not provided or impossible to provide.

That's probably illegal.

That said,I pay a house hold charge for which I've great difficulty figuring out what I get in return.

And the Septic tank registration charge does not fall into that category?

I suppose the State could argue that you are using "their" soil as a filter and dispersal medium? Like wise, is the planning permission charge a charge for using the States subsoil for the purpose of stabilizing your house?

Sam Kade

I've heard of this private well charge rumor going around but this doesn't support it So your man with his not if but when is bullsh1tting :rolleyes:

_Brian

Sam Kade wrote: »

I've heard of this private well charge rumor going around but this doesn't support it So your man with his not if but when is bullsh1tting :rolleyes:

I would really like to beleive your right... and for the moment I don't see this happening..

But Rovi's point above is very valid... they already have a framework for industry to be charged, it wouldn't be a huge stretch to cover farms under this framework too..
At the end of the day if they lay claim to all resources under your farm (which they do), then isn't the water under your farm just another resource ??

And as for any current policy document regarding the charging for private wells, it wouldn't be the biggest U-turn a government has made to reverse that little statement. And, don't be thinking for a moment that joe public will be outraged at such a carge being levied onto farmers..

Sam Kade

_Brian wrote: »

I would really like to beleive your right... and for the moment I don't see this happening..

But Rovi's point above is very valid... they already have a framework for industry to be charged, it wouldn't be a huge stretch to cover farms under this framework too..
At the end of the day if they lay claim to all resources under your farm (which they do), then isn't the water under your farm just another resource ??

And as for any current policy document regarding the charging for private wells, it wouldn't be the biggest U-turn a government has made to reverse that little statement. And, don't be thinking for a moment that joe public will be outraged at such a carge being levied onto farmers..

We'll worry about that if and when it comes How does the water get underground in the first place, maybe we could put a passage charge on them

Oldtree

arctictree wrote: »

We'll just have to collect rainwater. Shurley they can't charge us for that?!

If they charge per litre used then this is a great idea. I already do this on a small scale and the volume of water that comes off a small bungalow is huge. I would say that the volume off a large shed would be enormous.

One issue for self sufficiency with water is the storage capacity for water for during the very dry times we get during summer here now. You will need to know exactly what you water usage is. My barrel has run dry at least once a year during the last 3 years.

Another issue (for potable water) is about lead valleys (or any lead) on the roof. Tests have proven that if the water pools in lead valleys, it can pick up lead, but if it dosn't pool then no lead is picked up. The guidelines are for galvanised steel to be used in the guttering etc, I do not know if this has a bearing on rain water collected for animals.

Reggie.

The house is off the mains but the farm runs off a well. So the cattle can drink away

frazzledhome

I'm on a well in one farm and a water scheme coop on home farm. Allowance of 90k litres per house hold.

Charge of 700 set up per hshold or 1500 for house and farm. Any additional meters cost 200 for other fields etc.

60c/cu is the cost if the water. Unaccounted for water has dropped from >75% to < 20%, so much so it's uneconomic to chase unaccounted water.

The well on the other hand is a PIA

Nekarsulm

Oldtree wrote: »

If they charge per litre used then this is a great idea. I already do this on a small scale and the volume of water that comes off a small bungalow is huge. I would say that the volume off a large shed would be enormous.

One issue for self sufficiency with water is the storage capacity for water for during the very dry times we get during summer here now. You will need to know exactly what you water usage is. My barrel has run dry at least once a year during the last 3 years.

Another issue (for potable water) is about lead valleys (or any lead) on the roof. Tests have proven that if the water pools in lead valleys, it can pick up lead, but if it dosn't pool then no lead is picked up. The guidelines are for galvanised steel to be used in the guttering etc, I do not know if this has a bearing on rain water collected for animals.

I have a total of 6200 sq feet of roof area directed to a tank. Tank is 5000 gallons, and a heavy nights rain will fill the tank.

razor8

If you are on public supply and use it for farming purposes you should already be paying for water as it's classed as commercial, think it's €1.40 per m3 for water only here in Cavan but there's a 225m3 domestic allowance which would be better than new scheme

Most farms and houses wouldn't use anymore than 2m3 per day and norm would be 1m3

moy83

Did anyone hear Enda on the news yesterday saying that the charges would be good to make people aware of wasting water and that supplying water was costing 1.2bn a year . Then he said he knew 40% was being leaked underground ....... and that was it . No talk at all about them stepping up their game to fix the shagging leaks .

vanderbadger

moy83 wrote: »

Did anyone hear Enda on the news yesterday saying that the charges would be good to make people aware of wasting water and that supplying water was costing 1.2bn a year . Then he said he knew 40% was being leaked underground ....... and that was it . No talk at all about them stepping up their game to fix the shagging leaks .

i think the water network is so bad it would cost billions to straighten it up

moy83

vanderbadger wrote: »

i think the water network is so bad it would cost billions to straighten it up

Maybe it is but it will have to be fixed or reinstated eventually . I would like to at least hear them making plans to do so rather than sucking money out of us to plug the gap for now .
All the big roads around here have been ripped up at least once for one thing or another , I don't understand when this is happening that the council cant include to put everything right under the road when they are working on it anyhow .

vanderbadger

moy83 wrote: »

Maybe it is but it will have to be fixed or reinstated eventually . I would like to at least hear them making plans to do so rather than sucking money out of us to plug the gap for now .
All the big roads around here have been ripped up at least once for one thing or another , I don't understand when this is happening that the council cant include to put everything right under the road when they are working on it anyhow .

true enough, bad planning that important facilities werent ran along the major roads back in the boom times, fiber optic cable for broadband would have been useful as well

moy83

vanderbadger wrote: »

true enough, bad planning that important facilities werent ran along the major roads back in the boom times, fiber optic cable for broadband would have been useful as well

A full tunnel that could carry every service thats needed is what would have been useful and cut out the need for opening up major roads every second year .

Nekarsulm

No communication between service providers. Local town, after years of having a terrible surface, was given a lovely coat of ash felt/macadam.
The water crowd dug tracks in it 6 weeks later, and have been back again lately redigging. I heard somewhere that in Germany, a notice is sent to all concerned service providers about a resurfacing, and any work planned is carried out before hand. After the surfacing, no more services may dig for 5 years. (bar emergency leaks)

moy83

Nekarsulm wrote: »

No communication between service providers. Local town, after years of having a terrible surface, was given a lovely coat of ash felt/macadam.
The water crowd dug tracks in it 6 weeks later, and have been back again lately redigging. I heard somewhere that in Germany, a notice is sent to all concerned service providers about a resurfacing, and any work planned is carried out before hand. After the surfacing, no more services may dig for 5 years. (bar emergency leaks)

Proper order .

arctictree

Nekarsulm wrote: »

No communication between service providers. Local town, after years of having a terrible surface, was given a lovely coat of ash felt/macadam.
The water crowd dug tracks in it 6 weeks later, and have been back again lately redigging. I heard somewhere that in Germany, a notice is sent to all concerned service providers about a resurfacing, and any work planned is carried out before hand. After the surfacing, no more services may dig for 5 years. (bar emergency leaks)

The cynic in me says proper solutions are not implemented as there would be less long term work for the council.

moy83

arctictree wrote: »

The cynic in me says proper solutions are not implemented as there would be less long term work for the council.

Could be right but thats not really the publics problem or the government's either

frazzledhome

When we were doing our up grade works plans were in place for new traffic lights in the village. We offered to instal ducting as we were crossing the 4 roads. Council declined and as you've already guessed they redug about 1 month later????

yellow50HX

Muckit wrote: »

WELL now that's just ridiculous

it might be ridiculous but thats nothing new, we already have to pay , LPT and and COCO levies for services that we also never get, and will never get.

heard that roumour too about a charge for our own well. i think its tied into the waste disposal. i know large farms that use large amounts of water in the uk for irrigation have to pay extraction levies but i think that is for high users. unlikely to be the same for most fans here.

anyway unless they can prove to me that i am actually getting a return for my money then they can take a long walk off a short pier with concrete shoes.

lalababa

As far as I can recall council put in a meter around 12+yrs ago , a commercial meter with a domestic allowance for house. We pay around €100 per year standing charge, and only use water from a well. Unfortunately I don't have the bill to hand but it had extra charges from the new water board on it( maybe double). AND THIS was 6weeks ago!! So go figure that out

larrymiller

How much does it cost to put in a well?
Would go throught some water spraying corn every year along with everything else

Reggie.

larrymiller wrote: »

How much does it cost to put in a well?
Would go throught some water spraying corn every year along with everything else

Could you not draw from a river?

larrymiller

Reggie. wrote: »

Could you not draw from a river?

Yeah I could and that's what will happen id say.
Had a well for the farm house but it went bad

Reggie.

larrymiller wrote: »

Yeah I could and that's what will happen id say.
Had a well in the farm house but it went bad

What causes it to go bad?

larrymiller

Reggie. wrote: »

What causes it to go bad?

Was about ten years ago so can't really remember, they reckon it was dug to close to the farm yard and effluent and slurryish water got into it I think

newholland mad

Reggie. wrote: »

Could you not draw from a river?

First thing a cross compliance inspector looks for on a tillage farm is where the water supply for spraying is, river is a big no no risk of spillages etc, if you havent water tanks tell him you use the hose pipe;)

Reggie.

larrymiller wrote: »

Was about ten years ago so can't really remember, they reckon it was dug to close to the farm yard and effluent and slurryish water got into it I think

That's what I was thinking would be the only thing to cause it alright

larrymiller

newholland mad wrote: »

First thing a cross compliance inspector looks for on a tillage farm is where the water supply for spraying is, river is a big no no risk of spillages etc, if you havent water tanks tell him you use the hose pipe;)

Ssssshhh!!!
Ah well I have the tanks alright I'll just leave them be.
They seem to be more interested in my sprayer than that

larrymiller

Reggie. wrote: »

That's what I was thinking would be the only thing to cause it alright

Yeah some waste, pity it wasn't done right

Oldtree

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I have a total of 6200 sq feet of roof area directed to a tank. Tank is 5000 gallons, and a heavy nights rain will fill the tank.

That's a lot of water. Is your tank above ground? Do you use a pump? Has it every run dry on you? Do you use filters? How do you keep leaves etc out of the pipework?

Mine is straight into the tank from the gutter, with a mesh to catch leaves at the top of the tank. Wire at the top of the gutter down pipe to stop birds going in and to catch other large detritus. Tank up off the ground on blocks and bottom of tank is above the tap so no pump needed, gravity is free too . I have an agricultural filter (€17) that has 1 micron filters (€7) that I replace twice a year. Clean gutters once a year.

We are on a group scheme here (about €90 per year) and had to pay €600 or so a few years back for upgrades to the system to bring it up to EU standards, so well used to metering and saving water where possible. Got 2 litre plastic bottle cut in half with stones in the bottom in the toilet cisterns, so saves a litre every flush (got in the habit of doing that from living in London where they have regular hosepipe bans in the summer).

I heard them on the radio today saying no standing charge. If they do that then the money for the infrastructure and meters has to come from somewhere and that can only be by increasing the cost per litre of water. That will also make draining the Shannon for Dublin more viable I think.

They can't charge you for collecting the rain.

Nekarsulm

It is the underground tank from a petrol station. it had 3 compartments for different fuels once.. i had planned to make a meal bin out of it and had cut the end off, then cut out the two internal divisions. the plan was to weld in a funnel and stand it upright. Then came across a good secondhand meal bin and augers so the tank lay about for a number of years. Then when decided to use for water had to weld the end back in. not as easy a job as cutting it off, I can tell you! the tank is made of about 8mm steel. have it raised to to just below the gutter level on two lorry loads of maintenance. Gravity flow to drinkers etc. stainless drum out of an old washing machine filters out leaves moss and feathers etc from getting in.

Have a 2 inch outlet with a lever valve, and if you use a length of 2 inch ducting pipe, it will fill the 600 litre sprayer in a minute or two.

Also, if you ever needed the Fire Brigade, handy to have a good reserve of water ready.

Sam Kade

Rovi wrote: »

The State has long asserted its 'ownership' of everything under the surface of the land.
Oil, gas, minerals, etc, are all only legally 'extractable' under licence, and, to the best of my knowledge, there already exists a system of water Abstraction Licences, currently applied to the likes of industry using water from rivers and lakes.
I suspect the legal framework already exists for The State to regulate and licence (and charge for!) all 'abstraction' of ground and surface waters.

Whether it'd be politically possible for it to do so is entirely another matter...

Does that include slurry

Oldtree

Nekarsulm wrote: »

It is the underground tank from a petrol station. it had 3 compartments for different fuels once.. i had planned to make a meal bin out of it and had cut the end off, then cut out the two internal divisions. the plan was to weld in a funnel and stand it upright. Then came across a good secondhand meal bin and augers so the tank lay about for a number of years. Then when decided to use for water had to weld the end back in. not as easy a job as cutting it off, I can tell you! the tank is made of about 8mm steel. have it raised to to just below the gutter level on two lorry loads of maintenance. Gravity flow to drinkers etc. stainless drum out of an old washing machine filters out leaves moss and feathers etc from getting in.

Have a 2 inch outlet with a lever valve, and if you use a length of 2 inch ducting pipe, it will fill the 600 litre sprayer in a minute or two.

Also, if you ever needed the Fire Brigade, handy to have a good reserve of water ready.

thank you. The drum from an old washing machine is a brilliant idea as a sieve.

How do you keep the smaller pipes (are they half inch?) and fittings to the drinkers clean, or does the pressure do it? There is not a lot of gook that makes it to the filter in my setup but there is a bit of fine sediment at the bottom of the tank and I wash that out every year, if I didn't in about 5 years the sediment would be over the outflow hole.

Do you have an overflow pipe?

Reggie.

Oldtree wrote: »

thank you. The drum from an old washing machine is a brilliant idea as a sieve.

How do you keep the smaller pipes (are they half inch?) and fittings to the drinkers clean, or does the pressure do it? There is not a lot of gook that makes it to the filter in my setup but there is a bit of fine sediment at the bottom of the tank and I wash that out every year, if I didn't in about 5 years the sediment would be over the outflow hole.

Do you have an overflow pipe?

I just stretched a pair of tights over the top inlet of an ibc tank and use it as a filter

Nekarsulm

The outlet pipe is about 2 inches from the bottom, and the whole tank is very slightly sloped with the outlet at the higher end. Overflow directed into the drain, where the guttering would be emptying anyway.

Oldtree

Reggie. wrote: »

I just stretched a pair of tights over the top inlet of an ibc tank and use it as a filter

Good idea too. Did you have permission to use the tights?

larrymiller

We pay 240 a year for the private water scheme.
Do I pay the 240 plus the water charges or just the water charges?
I haven't even thought about it till yesterday

Oldtree

Our group scheme has a generous usage allowance covered by the standing charge, and then separate charges for usage over the basic allowance.

Reggie.

Oldtree wrote: »

Good idea too. Did you have permission to use the tights?

Ahem :rolleyes: