Moving a staffie to the UK

whatanidiot

Hi,
Does anyone know where the best place to find information on moving a dog to the UK would be? He's a staffie cross so I'm just looking to see if it's even possible.
Thanks

andreac

What do you mean my moving to the uk? Are you going yourself? Or are you looking for a company to take him over? I'm a bit confused as to what you are looking for.

whatanidiot

andreac wrote: »

What do you mean my moving to the uk? Are you going yourself? Or are you looking for a company to take him over? I'm a bit confused as to what you are looking for.

Yep I'd be going with him. I'm finishing college in a few weeks so have been looking for permanent work and the UK has a lot of jobs on offer for graduate positions. I'm not applying unless I can bring my little guy with me. I'm unsure of the situation with bringing him seeing he's a "dangerous" breed over there. Just looking to see if anyone knows the procedure. I'm not willing to risk him being taken off me because of ridiculous legislation.

muddypaws

Staffies aren't a 'dangerous' breed in the UK, they have banned breeds there, staffies are not one of them, but pit bulls are, so if he's a staffy cross, I would be very worried that they would consider him a pit or pit cross. The legislation states 'of type', so a dog only has to be judged to look enough like a pit bull to be one, that he could be seized and put to sleep. Can you maybe post some photos up and we could see what he looks like. The other option would be maybe to contact EGAR, who deal with bull breeds regularly, and have worked with various UK agencies on whether a dog is of type or not, and they could give you advice on whether they think your dog could be viewed as 'type'.


(Admin, I put the mention of EGAR in as an accepted authority on his kind of situation, not in a rescue capacity, hope that is acceptable)

Inexile

The transportation of the dogs is easy. Muddypaws' comments re the breed are well made. You also need to consider whether or not you would get accommodation in an area that suited you with this breed of dog.

andreac

As muddy says, staffies are not a dangerous breed in the uk.

whatanidiot

Thanks for the replies It's the "of type" that worries me. Even a little chance he'd be taken and it's not worth it. Egar is definitely a good idea As it's so much up on the air at the minute and it's literally just come about as there's a lot more jobs available there than here I'm only researching it to see if it's feasible.
If it went ahead I'd go for a few weeks first to sort out living arrangements and to ensure somewhere safe for him while I'm at work. I have family there so I'd have them to call on for help.
I'm on my phone now but will post pictures of him once I'm on the laptop.

andreac

Staffies are very popular in the uk so you will be fine. Is he registered with the ikc? Have you got papers for him? If so you won't have anything to worry about.
But honestly, I wouldn't worry and take your lovely doggie with you.

sambuka41

Wow I didn't realise that was the case, I am in North London and one of the things I noticed was the amount of bull breeds over here. I seen 3 pit bulls yesterday in Hyde park, all with different owners. Lots of staffies in my area, so not sure how well its enforced? But obviously check out for certain.

One thing I did find it difficult to rent with my cat, they aren't super pet friendly in London, guess they don't have to be cause of the huge numbers of people looking to rent.

Whispered

The fact he's a cross would worry me to be honest. Yours might look different to mine, but I was advised not to bring my fella into the uk.

I've attached a pic. It's the black cross, not the red staffy that would be a worry.

Joeseph Balls

andreac wrote: »

Staffies are very popular in the uk so you will be fine. Is he registered with the ikc? Have you got papers for him? If so you won't have anything to worry about.
But honestly, I wouldn't worry and take your lovely doggie with you.

Op said its a staffie cross so no papers.

Inexile

Whispered wrote: »

The fact he's a cross would worry me to be honest. Yours might look different to mine, but I was advised not to bring my fella into the uk.

I've attached a pic. It's the black cross, not the red staffy that would be a worry.

Lovely dogs. From the photo I would have said lab x for the black fella. So I suppose its all about who is looking at your dog and how they perceive them.

Whispered

Thanks.

Yeah we used to think he's a lab x staffy, but I've been told by one bull breed expert and more than one dog trainer that he is more mixed than that. Depending on what angle you look at him from he looks different each time haha. He's got a big labby nose, that's for sure

Edit: we know his mother was a staffy as she was rescued with the pups. Father is unknown.

muddypaws

That is what is so wrong with this particular bit of the legislation, you could have both parents, say lab and staff, but if an expert thinks the dog looks enough like it could be a pit or cross, thats it Obviously I think the whole concept of BSL is wrong.

toadfly

Whispered I could never see Staff in Harley, would have said a lab cross. The legislation is so flawed its ridiculous.

Whispered

toadfly wrote: »

Whispered I could never see Staff in Harley, would have said a lab cross. The legislation is so flawed its ridiculous.

If I had to guess is have said maybe lab x boxer because of his body shape and markings. Although his huge nose might say differently

It is so stupid. There are so many dogs of unknown parentage who could be described as being "of type" depending on who is looking.

DBB

I think it needs clarification that owners of dogs "of type" in the UK can, and regularly do go through the procedure to get them exempted from the legislation. The dog can be added to the Index of Exempted Dogs (IED), and is certified as being on the list.

An owner of an "of type" dog can apply to the courts to obtain said exemption, they need to have had a behavioural assessment carried out on the dog by an appropriately certified behaviourist.
They must also undertake to have the dog neutered, microchipped and tattooed, on-lead and muzzled when in public, appropriately contained in the home and garden, and insured against 3rd party liability. The owner must produce their IED certificate if asked for it by a warden or policeman.
If the owner of an "of type" dog does not have this exemption, or if the owner is found to be in breach of the conditions attached, then the dog may be seized, and only pts once due process is done.
In short, if an "of type" dog is seized and pts, it is because the owner did not bother to do what the law allows them to do to keep their dog.
Having said all that, op you could run into trouble simply getting your dog into the UK. You will need a passport for him, but that aside, you'll need to make absolutely sure that they allow "of type" dogs to enter the UK at all. I haven't read their laws for a while, but I have an idea that they have restricted, if plain do not allow "of type" dogs to be imported, to stop the importation of potentially fresh stock into the country. I could be wrong on this point, but you need to check it out!

muddypaws

DBB wrote: »

I think it needs clarification that owners of dogs "of type" in the UK can, and regularly do go through the procedure to get them exempted from the legislation. The dog can be added to the Index of Exempted Dogs (IED), and is certified as being on the list.

An owner of an "of type" dog can apply to the courts to obtain said exemption, they need to have had a behavioural assessment carried out on the dog by an appropriately certified behaviourist.
They must also undertake to have the dog neutered, microchipped and tattooed, on-lead and muzzled when in public, appropriately contained in the home and garden, and insured against 3rd party liability. The owner must produce their IED certificate if asked for it by a warden or policeman.
If the owner of an "of type" dog does not have this exemption, or if the owner is found to be in breach of the conditions attached, then the dog may be seized, and only pts once due process is done.
In short, if an "of type" dog is seized and pts, it is because the owner did not bother to do what the law allows them to do to keep their dog.
Having said all that, op you could run into trouble simply getting your dog into the UK. You will need a passport for him, but that aside, you'll need to make absolutely sure that they allow "of type" dogs to enter the UK at all. I haven't read their laws for a while, but I have an idea that they have restricted, if plain do not allow "of type" dogs to be imported, to stop the importation of potentially fresh stock into the country. I could be wrong on this point, but you need to check it out!

But surely the point, and the problem, is that a dog such as a lab/staff cross would not be considered to be 'of type' by an owner, so why would they do all of that? Definitely, if someone has a pit bull or cross, then they should do all of those things, but I wonder how many owner of lab crosses have had their dogs seized because they never entertained the thought that their dog would even be considered as part of the legislation?

Whispered

It'd be interesting to see the criteria for the assessment. As well as the pass/fail rate. Probably available online actually.

Loads of questions about this - can all dogs be assessed for that exemption? Even if there is no doubt it's pittie or type? And is it true that you can be exempt in one area but the dog can be seized in another area?

Does anybody know if the op would have to be living with the dog in the uk before he could be assessed for the exemption list and if he was identified as type would he then be able to go home with his dog or is it automatically seized?

It's a lot to think about op. If you bring your dog over and it was deemed as type, even if you could then bring him home, you'd have to leave then too after the expense of moving (or send your dog home without you, but you already said that's not an option). I wonder if you could have the dog assessed before going over. If you could, I'd be interested in doing it with mine - I'd love to go on hols with mine in Southern England.

DBB

@ Muddypaws,
If a dog is seized because it is believed to be "of type", the due process I referred to above includes the opportunity for the owner to prove that the dog is not one of the four banned breeds, or a cross thereof. Equally, the officer who seized the dog must produce evidence for how they concluded that the dog is "of type", including an accepted list of morphometric measurements.
Now, and I should have included this in my above post, if a dog is seized, and is subsequently deemed to be "of type" (rightly or wrongly), once the behaviourist has reported that they believe the dog to be not dangerous, the owner can still apply for the IED.
All of which, I suppose, gives an owner a number of opportunities to keep their dog whether they know the dog is "of type", or did not know, but were subsequently ruled against in court.

maggiepip

Now I could be reading the wrong or outdated information here, but can you definitely voluntarily apply for an exemption certificate? One or two sites there and the dogstrust uk site is saying that you once could but the deadline for that expired in 1991. Now apparently theres no process for voluntarily application, so basically you cant apply for the exemption certificate until you get caught with the illegal dog. Has this been updated or am I missing something?

evilpixie

Hi I am from the uk and moved my dog to waterford, no problem. Staffies are very common. The biggest problem I foresee is if you need to rent in the uk, they tend to be strict on no pets.

DBB

maggiepip wrote: »

Now I could be reading the wrong or outdated information here, but can you definitely voluntarily apply for an exemption certificate? One or two sites there and the dogstrust uk site is saying that you once could but the deadline for that expired in 1991. Now apparently theres no process for voluntarily application, so basically you cant apply for the exemption certificate until you get caught with the illegal dog. Has this been updated or am I missing something?

Duh!:o
No, I don't think you're missing anything... there was a sort of amnesty where owners could pre-emptively apply for an IED, but that no longer applies. It is a retrospective process now after the dog has been seized. It seems an odd sort of logic, doesn't it? Surely a pre-emptive attempt by the owner to have their dog certified would save a whole lot of people a whole lot of trouble?! But this retrospective approach means that in many cases, the dog has to have already come to the attention of the police by causing problems. Odd.

maggiepip

@DBB Yeah its an odd logic, and it means you're probably guaranteed a criminal record too - so if you wanted to try to be honest and get your illegal dog owned legally and obtain the exemption cert, you would need to present yourself to the police for prosecution and a courtcase with no guaranteed success.

In 1997 they brought in a law to allow the owner to challenge the case, and started issuing exemption certs if the dog passed behavioural tests, microchip, insurance etc., before that the seized dog was automatically put to sleep. Apparently its also very difficult to manage to get insurance for a banned breed even if the courts are willing to issue a cert.

whatanidiot

Hi everyone, OP here. Sorry for the late reply. Here are a few pictures of my little man. Having done a bit of research today I think I'd have an issue with him coming under type (although because of his size I do think he'd be cleared) and I really don't see how it's worth putting him through all that. He's never slept a night outside since I brought him home and we don't even visit people who would expect this of him (including my boyfriends parents!). Even a night for him taken away would be so traumatic for him and I'd never forgive myself for putting him through that.
I need to spend some proper time researching and finding the facts as to how it works. If there was an option as mentioned to undertake the behaviour assessment here before leaving that would be an option I would work with but no way would I bring him over and let them assess him with the chance someone might say no he's a pit and lose him. Thanks a million for all the comments. I'm definitely more aware of what I need to look at thanks to all your help

DBB

He's lovely! I came across a leaflet on the DEFRA site somewhere which said that if you think you own a dog of type, to contact the local police force's dog legislation officer (DLO) for advice. This would seem a sensible first port of call, perhaps?

Edited to add: height is not taken into account in the measurements they take... Seems odd. Your fella looks a fair bit smaller than what I'm sure most would consider "of type"!

DBB

This links to a pdf which explains how it all works, and interestingly, lists the criteria used for judging whether a dog is of type or not (Annex 2 at the end of the document).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dangerous-dogs-law-guidance-for-enforcers

Whispered

I would defo have said that your fella is too small op. He's gorgeous! However, the last line on dbbs attachment says that no mention of height or weight is made. In one sense I can see why, the dogs differ in size hugely so it'd be really hard to pin down a size range but does that mean you could have a very small but "correctly" proportioned dog and it could be considered banned? I know if it's tiny it's not likely to be enforced, but technically speaking?

whatanidiot

DBB wrote: »

He's lovely! And he does look too small to be of type, but I did come across a leaflet on the DEFRA site somewhere which said that if you think you own a dog of type, to contact the local police force's dog legislation officer (DLO) for advice. This would seem a sensible first port of call, perhaps?

Yah definitely worth a try. I've sent a few emails today so hopefully someone will respond with something of help or can point me in the best direction for getting help

whatanidiot

DBB wrote: »

This links to a pdf which explains how it all works, and interestingly, lists the criteria used for judging whether a dog is of type or not (Annex 2 at the end of the document).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dangerous-dogs-law-guidance-for-enforcers

Thanks for this. I'd replied before I saw this. Defra were one of the emails I sent today with a picture of Ogie so surely they could tell from that if he'd be queried or not and give me an idea of what I'd need to do.

Sianery

Hi all,

I'm also planning on moving to the UK (Manchester) with a staffie.

I have no worries about him being 'allowed in' as I've read that people have no problem bringing their Irish restricted breeds over on ferries, they don't even check pet passports. They're more welcome in the UK than they are in Ireland.

My issue is that I don't have a car to transport my dog via ferry. No friends/family will be available to drive us when we're leaving (mid-July).

Does anyone have any ideas on what to do?

I've looked into renting a car, but that's not likely with the travel between countries and bringing a dog.

Ideally I'd like to be able to travel with my dog, boyfriend and belongings in one vehicle on a ferry. Is there any service anyone knows of where this sounds possible?

Or any other suggestions are more than welcome

whatanidiot

Sorry, I forgot to post the reply I got from DEFRA "Thank you for your email about bringing your Staffordshire bull terrier cross to Great Britain from Ireland. This will very much depend upon the appearance of your dog. If it has the appearance of a pit bull type of dog it could be a banned type that would be prohibited from entering the country.  
If you are absolutely sure that your dog is not of the banned types of dog you should contact the Pet Travel Scheme in Ireland to ensure that your dog has a valid Pet Passport with which to travel to Great Britain. 
Unfortunately if your dog is considered to be  one of the 4 types that are prohibited in Great Britain as they are classified as “Dogs bred for fighting” by Section 1 of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 (as amended 1997) they will prohibited from entering the country.
The 4 banned types of dog are:  
•             The Pit bull terrier type;
•             The Japanese Tosa type;
•             The Dogo Argentino type;
•             The Fila Braziliero type. 
In Great Britain, it is illegal to possess these types of dog. If you bring one of these types of dog into Great Britain, you could be prosecuted and the dog seized and may be destroyed. It is important to note that, in the Great Britain, dangerous dogs are classified by “type”, not by breed label. 
This means that whether a dog is considered one of these types, or is dangerous, and therefore prohibited, will depend on a judgment about its physical characteristics, and whether they match the description of a prohibited 'type'. The only designated prohibited dogs permitted in Great Britain are those already in the country and registered on the Index of Exempted Dogs. 
Any dog considered to be one of the prohibited types runs the risk of being seized and having its future decided by the courts. You could also face imprisonment and/or a fine for having possession of such a dog in the country. Please note that this also applies to dogs that spend time in Great Britain during transit to other countries. Also note that it is not possible for a banned type of dog to be registered on the Index of Exempted Dogs prior to entering Great Britain. It is not possible to gain a Certificate of Exemption without bringing the dog into the country, thereby breaking the law, and running the risk of losing your dog and being prosecuted. Dogs of the prohibited type should simply not be brought into Great Britain, unless they are already on the Index of Exempted DogsFor further help I have attached the guidance from the Defra website on Dangerous Dogs. 
https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public/banned-dogs If you require further clarification please contact us 
Regards 
Dogs Index
PO Box 68250
London
SW1P 9XG 
Tel: 020 7238 1506
Fax: 020 7238 1100"