1500 Year Old Bible Confirms That Jesus Christ Was Not Crucified – Vatican In Awe

HandoLogan

Much to the dismay of the Vatican, an approx. 1500-2000 year old bible was found in Turkey, in the Ethnography Museum of Ankara. Discovered and kept secret in the year 2000, the book contains the Gospel of Barnabas – a disciple of Christ – which shows that Jesus was not crucified, nor was he the son of God, but a Prophet. The book also calls Apostle Paul “The Impostor”. The book also claims that Jesus ascended to heaven alive, and that Judas Iscariot was crucified in his place.

report by The National Turk says that the Bible was seized from a gang of smugglers in a Mediterranean-area operation. The report states the gang was charged with smuggling antiquities, illegal excavations, and the possession of explosives. The books itself is valued as high as 40 Million Turkish Liras (approx. 28 mil. Dollars). Man, where is the Thieves Guild, when you need them?
According to reports, experts and religious authorities in Tehram insist that the book is original. The book itself is written with gold lettering, onto loosely-tied leather in Aramaic, the language of Jesus Christ. The text maintains a vision similar to Islam, contradicting the New Testament’s teachings of Christianity. Jesus also foresees the coming of the Prophet Muhammad, who would found Islam 700 years later.

It is believed that, during the Council of Nicea, the Catholic Church hand-picked the gospels that form the Bible as we know it today; omitting the Gospel of Barnabas (among many others) in favor of the four canonical gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Many biblical texts have begun to surface over time, including those of the Dead Sea and Gnostic Gospels; but this book especially, seems to worry the Vatican

What does this mean to Christian-derived religions and their followers? Quite a tight spot. The Vatican has asked Turkish authorities to let them examine the contents of the book within the Church. Now that the book has been found, will they come to accept the it and its evidence? Will they deny it altogether? Call it a “Muslim lie”, as did the “Truth” Magazine, in 2000? To many, this book is a beacon of hope, that believers soon realize that the object of their adoration is arbitrary; and that all text, especially religious text, is subject to interpretation.

What does this mean to atheists/agnostics/secular thinkers? Is the text real? Fake? Does it matter? Hopefully, this news inspires the religious to ask questions, instead of pointing fingers or believing anything blindly. Please, don’t go poking fun or tossing around the “I told you so!”s. The biggest danger of faith is when people believe what they want to believe, defending against any and all evidence; especially when that evidence revolutionizes their foundation from the ground up. And the biggest culprit to that danger is the ego trap: rejecting/criticizing others, for being unlike you. For centuries, the “defense” of blind faith has driven nations to war, violence, discrimination, slavery and to become the society of automatons that we are today; and for just as long, it has been justified with lies. If you know better, act like it.

OU812

Source?

HandoLogan

I would love to give the source, but for some reason the moderator's on this site have seen fit to remove my ability to post, photographs and links. If you view my other posts you will see why they saw fit to do this.... Personally I think it's kind of pathetic, not just any kind of pathetic but "P***y Pathetic"

HandoLogan

I would love to give the source, but for some reason the moderator's on this site have seen fit to remove my ability to post, photographs and links. If you view my other posts you will see why they saw fit to do this.... Personally I think it's kind of pathetic, not just any kind of pathetic but "P***y Pathetic"

If you copy and past the title of the article into Google search bar, you will be able to find the Article.

TireeTerror

Personally I believe anything at all to do with religion is an embarrassing joke and that anyone who defends such obvious drivel really ought to sit down and have a word with themselves.

All religions are a complete and utter sham and they are designed as a means to control people. If anyone cannot see that, then that is their problem.

The reaction people have about respecting others beliefs is just another example of how controlled we are. If a child is scared of monsters under the bed, we tell them they do not exist.....its the same principle only the goal is different and thats where its all a lot of garbage.

HandoLogan

TireeTerror wrote: »

Personally I believe anything at all to do with religion is an embarrassing joke and that anyone who defends such obvious drivel really ought to sit down and have a word with themselves.

All religions are a complete and utter sham and they are designed as a means to control people. If anyone cannot see that, then that is their problem.

The reaction people have about respecting others beliefs is just another example of how controlled we are. If a child is scared of monsters under the bed, we tell them they do not exist.....its the same principle only the goal is different and thats where its all a lot of garbage.

I like the way you think. If only we all thought in a similar way. THE TRUTH IS LIKE WATER, IT ALWAYS FINDS A WAY. A lot of people are running scared at the moment, because the bonds of ignorance that have kept us in check for so long are, are slowly but surly disintegrating.

Toby Take a Bow

Things like this come around every couple of years, and I don't see why we should trust the veracity of this particular text (which seems to have been written later than the gospels) than any of the other non-Canonical gospels (or, indeed, the Canonical gospels).

I would be very surprised if the Vatican were ever to accept that it's genuine. But even if it's 'genuine', it's simply one person's word against another (and the Vatican can simply say that it's a false account).

If it is genuine, it would be interesting to give a picture of the varied and divided Christian/Jewish sects that existed at the time.

ABC101

HandoLogan wrote: »

The book also calls Apostle Paul “The Impostor”.

I don't think Paul was an Apostle. He was not one of the original 12.

I think Paul came along much later, he was a Jew who persecuted the early Christian Church.. and then had a conversion along the road to Damascus etc.

westmidlands

I just googled it like you said, I only looked on the first page but either the search result link is to a page not available or a forum. In fact this page is the second result. Is there actually a link to a genuine reputable article out there so I can read it myself? I know you can't post it but I would search a bit more if I knew there was. I think the first search result might be the one you are talking about but I get a 'This page is currently not available. Please try again later.' when I click on it.

Also when did this story break? No newspapers picking it up?

Absolam

I think that's a massive overplay of what it means to the RCC. I honestly don't think that the Vatican is in awe. I don't even think some people in the Vatican are in awe. At best, I think some people in the Vatican press corps are a little annoyed at the extra work they will have to do. The Church is well aware that there are plenty of non-canonical gospels out there, and another doesn't really make any difference. It's no secret that the RCC version of the bible has been reconstructed substantially over the centuries to suit whatever motivations required it, but the church will always maintain that it is divine guidance that makes their version the true one. Once you get down to 'because God' there's really no point in discussing further. I don't think the church has conspired to come up with its' version of the bible, it just set out to say 'we're right and if you say we're wrong you're going to hell so there'. Fairly above board really.

flanna01

Was JC and his 12 goons.... Not the original first 'Mafia' family...

Religion's the name, extortion's the game...?? It's a numbers racket, and still is to this day.

the_syco

HandoLogan wrote: »

I would love to give the source, but for some reason the moderator's on this site have seen fit to remove my ability to post, photographs and links.

It's related to your low post count.

Posting a link: 50 posts and signed up for 10 days or more.

Source for this is the FAQ located here.

zarquon

Paul and Barnabas had a big dispute which the bible talks about in Acts 15 and then went their separate ways. It would be no surprise that if a text was subsequently written by barnabas it would be very disparaging of Paul.

the_syco

Googled it, and found this. There's pictures.

Daithi 1

Beforeitsnews ?.... Thats the end of that so..

Beano

I read a few stories on that site. I think a couple of million brain cells decided to commit suicide.

Beano

In what does this recently discovered text prove anything? Assuming it is of the right age and has not been faked in any way this text on its own proves nothing. The OP talks about not believing anything blindly but surely if you take this text at face value then any belief that it is the word of god is as blind a belief as believing the existing biblical texts are the word of god. What is there about this text makes it superior to the existing gospels? At least there is some historical evidence that somebody similar to Jesus was crucified. I cannot see the catholic church being in any way perturbed by this text. It may be interested from a historical perspective but it will not change their beliefs or those of any of the faithful.

Emme

HandoLogan wrote: »

According to reports, experts and religious authorities in Tehram insist that the book is original.

They would say that, wouldn't they?

HandoLogan wrote: »

The book itself is written with gold lettering, onto loosely-tied leather in Aramaic, the language of Jesus Christ. The text maintains a vision similar to Islam, contradicting the New Testament’s teachings of Christianity. Jesus also foresees the coming of the Prophet Muhammad, who would found Islam 700 years later.

So according to this book Jesus is a kind of John the Baptist figure for the Prophet Muhammad.

Absolam

Well, Jesus is already a prophet in islam, so really it just indicates that the 'bible' that was discovered was a document written by muslims.

Darkglasses

The fact that it's even suggested that there could be a 2,000 year old bible in existence is ridiculous. Go to the Chester Beatty library and take a look at what the oldest fragments of new testament manuscripts look like. Then ask a guide about textual variancy in the first millenium AD, and when a uniform bible started to appear. Ask about "heretical" movements in the early Christian era and the different writings that are out there.

There's a lot of interesting stuff out there, and you'll be in a more informed position when seemingly ground-breaking texts like these come up in the news.

Vatican is in Awe.................... and there's me thinking it was in Rome.

Beano

Beano wrote: »

I read a few stories on that site. I think a couple of million brain cells decided to commit suicide.

Jeez.......... hope you are ok:p

Beano

Deleted User wrote: »

Jeez.......... hope you are ok:p

Your concern for my wellbeing is appreciated. I am happy to report i have recovered. You may rest easy.

GoodLord

ABC101 wrote: »

I don't think Paul was an Apostle. He was not one of the original 12.

I think Paul came along much later, he was a Jew who persecuted the early Christian Church.. and then had a conversion along the road to Damascus etc.

He changed from being a non christian bigot to a christian bigot

jimeryan22

TireeTerror wrote: »

Personally I believe anything at all to do with religion is an embarrassing joke and that anyone who defends such obvious drivel really ought to sit down and have a word with themselves.

All religions are a complete and utter sham and they are designed as a means to control people. If anyone cannot see that, then that is their problem.

The reaction people have about respecting others beliefs is just another example of how controlled we are. If a child is scared of monsters under the bed, we tell them they do not exist.....its the same principle only the goal is different and thats where its all a lot of garbage.

I feel very sorry for you... For your insight..
See you on the other side.. Or not in your case

///3power

Wibbs

It's been known as a text long before this discovery and has been debunked as an early text by scholars in the field, believers and non believers alike. It gets too many historical and cultural details wrong and couldn't have been written by a bloke "on the ground" as it were. The best fit for it is that it's basically a late medieval rejig of the christian gospels to make them appear to agree with the teachings of Islam(though even gets a few theological details wrong there too).

Just on an amateur front, I note it looks like vellum in the pics. Vellum was around in Roman times, but the oldest surviving vellum manuscript is from the 4th century. If original it would be more likely to have been written on papyrus like the Dead Sea scrolls. The use of gold writing is also anachronistic. Easiest way to settle this would be to carbon date a sample. If it gives a date of 100 then game ball, but I'll bet the farm it's more likely to return a date of 1600. I'll further bet they won't allow a C14 test.

///3power

I dunno Wibbs. I mean you can't debunk something just because it ruffles a few feathers.

I've read the arguments for and against, and how the Spanish and Italian translations describe things that were not present at the alleged time of writing. Things are always lost/added in translation.

As for carbon dating. They carbon dated a live snail, turned out to be 27,000 years old LOL.

While we're on the conspiracy pages, some people are suggesting that the last Pope resigned (the first to resign in some 600 years) after he received access to the gospel.

The Roman Church inc. labels any and all gospels that don't suit them as "apocryphal".
Of course there will also be a huge backlash from Christians who are having their fundamental beliefs about Jesus (peace be upon him) questioned, and the ones who suffer cognitive dissonance are most likely going to explore every avenue possible to "debunk" this text, by any means possible.

The facts we know are that this text mentions aspects about Jesus's life found in the Qur'an, that are not found in accepted Christian doctrine. It also mentions details that are not found in the Qur'an, yet fit perfectly with it.

If the text is indeed older than 1500 years, it would change everything as the Qur'an is only some 1400 years old.

Wibbs

///3power wrote: »

I dunno Wibbs. I mean you can't debunk something just because it ruffles a few feathers.

When setting out to prove or disprove something objectivity is the order of the day. Does something pass muster or not? Simple as that. This really doesn't on a few levels. Add in that the main thrust to authenticate this document is coming from Islamic sources and you have the suspicion of vested interest(it was probably put together by a similar vested interest originally. I'd think the same if the Catholic church "discovered" a new Quran.

I've read the arguments for and against, and how the Spanish and Italian translations describe things that were not present at the alleged time of writing. Things are always lost/added in translation.

There are a fair amount of these anachronistic additions and a fair amount of anachronistic use of language with it. There are other texts, some much older that have survived without such issues. The writings of various ancient Greek scholars as an example.

As for carbon dating. They carbon dated a live snail, turned out to be 27,000 years old LOL.

That's an old tactic to discredit C14 dating. Sadly for debunkers it's an example of the reservoir effect, where an organism picks up extra C12 from its environment during its life(IIRC whalebones can sometimes give a similar result). This can massively reduce the amount of C14 left which gives rise to an erroneous result(Very basically, the less the % of C14 the older the sample). There are other issues that can lead to errors but these are also know about and factored in by researchers. With the vellum/leather in this case this would not be an issue. Contamination might be, but again it could be factored in*. Enough to say 100AD or 1500AD anyway.

Of course there will also be a huge backlash from Christians who are having their fundamental beliefs about Jesus (peace be upon him) questioned, and the ones who suffer cognitive dissonance are most likely going to explore every avenue possible to "debunk" this text, by any means possible.

Ah but you see, I don't have a horse in this race. Clearly you do by the addition of "PBUH" to Jesus. Me, I don't buy either story, the Quran, or the Gospels. Or more precisely I see them as likely having some historical truth varnished with theology, hagiography and later invention and addition.

Scholarly examination of the various Christian canons has a long history from within and without the various Christian churches. EG quite the number of early Christian scholars saw stories like Genesis as theologically instructive metaphor not hard reality(Augustine for one). The joke is today you have Christians in the US who see it as fact.

On the other hand scholarly examination of the Quran has been very limited. Internal scholarship is OK(up to a point), but questions of its origin are frowned upon, even dangerous to suggest. Ditto for the historicity of Mohammed himself. Even among the more vocal atheists there would be the belief that the gospels are unreliable and that Jesus may not have even existed as a real individual, but that the historicity of Mohammed is a given. The reality is a little different. Mohammed as an individual exists nowhere outside Muslim sources and the details of his life are only written down at least a century after the date given for his death.

The facts we know are that this text mentions aspects about Jesus's life found in the Qur'an, that are not found in accepted Christian doctrine. It also mentions details that are not found in the Qur'an, yet fit perfectly with it.

Which would come as no surprise for a text written after Islam came along.







*on this point, the Shroud of Turin results were interesting. The initial results showed "ah yep late medieval fake". However further research showed that the samples were part of a repair interwoven with newer threads and this may have skewed the results. Personally speaking I'd bet the farm it's older. 8th century anyway and possibly earlier. I don't believe it's the burial shroud of Jesus, but there are records of a very similar shroud in Byzantine writings where said shroud was kept in a box and the folds of same are still evident on the Turin example. Plus the cloth is identical(as is the blood type) to the purported Sudarium of Oviedo which is recorded back in the 6th century and C14 dated to the 7/8th. For my mind the Shroud of Turin is a masterpiece of art and craft and a wonder of the world. Unreal for the late medieval, truly staggering if circa the 6th century.

///3power

You do have a horse... He wont even finish

Wibbs

Wow. Deep stuff that. Or not. This is a discussion forum you know? Not a "I dunno how to respond with a cogent rebuttal, so I'll come back with some faith based banality so you hopefully won't spot this" forum. Oh and BTW thanks to you and jimeryan22 for suggesting damnation on others. Very pleasant altogether. I do love the religious for this level of nonsense.

///3power

Well, to be honest Wibbs it's kind of draining having these types of discussions.

You're obviously an intelligent guy, yet some of your statements which you dress up as facts are wrong.

There are historical records and accounts outside of Arabia that talk about Muhammad (peace be upon him), a few in fact. Am i going to link them? No. Do i care if you believe me? No.

As for Genesis. That book is a lot more than just the story of creation (which i assume is what you were referring to). The book tells a detailed story of How Abraham (peace be upon him) was promised a progeny that would go on to form great nations, through the bloodlines of Isaac and Ishmael. As we have today! Today is the proof (not-a-mind the rest of the proof).

It might do you the world of good to read (about) it, if you haven't. Use that great intellect you've been blessed with to really consider this stuff. Religious education in this country unfortunately goes as far as telling a few stories about Jesus (pbuh), and ends there. But the narrative, wisdom and guidance goes waaaaaaaayy deeper than just Jesus.

Of course, those books have all been corrupted and manipulated in parts, but in general they are intact and convey the message and narrative clearly.


As for the creation part of Genesis. Well, time is relative and it changes as science has proven. In Islam the same story exists, except instead of 6 days, it's 6 ages. Even if it was days, a day to the One who created time and exists outside of it, could be as long as He likes.

This is tiring.

Claiming that it's dangerous to question to origins of the Qur'an is nonsense. I'm sure there are passionate Muslims out there, who disobey God and become aggressive, when we are ordered not to. That doesn't mean anyone is going to attack you or anyone who wishes to research history.

If someone denies the existence of Jesus and Muhammad, they are denying that yesterday even existed.

Where do you draw the line?

It's like the heap of sand paradox. If i had a heap of sand on a table and removed one grain, is it still a heap of sand?
yes.
okay, so if i kept on removing one grain at a time until there was only one grain left. Is that grain a heap of sand? Or does the concept of a heap of sand even exist?

These prophets are documented. There are divine and non divine accounts of them. Not only that but they're all related, through one family bloodline. The Bloodline of Abraham (pbuh).

Many of the stories can be verified either through historical accounts or through geological research (i'll explain later in a post i'm working on).

These stories exist for a reason. There's lessons and wisdom to be learnt from them. The prophets were sent for a reason. To guide.



Oh, and by the way i was doing a little reading on that giants thread you commented on. In the Qur'an God explains that He is expanding the earth. The Qur'an also mentions that early humans i.e. Adam (pbuh) were 60 cubits tall (90 feet i think). If the earth was smaller, the gravitational forces diminish, thus allowing for land creatures to big bigger e.g dinosaurs.

Here's a picture of an ancient crocodile skull and modern one


I was also reading about many scientists and geologists who have had their careers ruined for going public with findings that question accepted scientific principles, when it comes to ancient man.


___________

and then your last sentence in your post. You said you've no horse. Then insinuate that the gospel of Barnabus was written after the advent of Islam. Like one second you're being objective, then the next making what appear to be factual statements based on nothing. So clearly you have a dog.

Anyway dude, you have your beliefs. I'll have mine. These types of discussions drain me.

They are a level behind. I'm way past the stage of "is there a God". It's not even a question to me. It's a laughable question.

If you're so certain of your non beliefs then why are you always commenting on religion threads?

Like, to me it seems that all athiests, somewhere deep down are always unsure. So they have to reassure themselves by spitting their venom in all religious discussions. You're unsure and you feel uneasy, because belief is preprogrammed into you. Deep down you know you're doing something wrong, but you're blinded.

Every atheist chose not to believe in a specific moment in their life. Every believer has believed since the start!

Think about it.

Also think about why EVERY single culture, no matter how isolated, all worship something. It's innate in us. Scientific studies have proven this.

My words will most likely fall on your blind ears, but the truth will be made manifest soon enough.

The best thing you could do is sincerely seek the truth. Learn about the prophets. Who knows, maybe before you die you'll be the one who sees and God makes me the blind one. I hope and beg for Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) not to reject me like that.

As for the whole warning you of damnation thing. It's part of my job. I have been commanded by our Creator, our Owner, and i try to follow the commands as best as i can.

Phew.

No more discussion please. i tireds

Iseedeadpixels

Did he personally command you?

///3power

The guidebook/user manual on how to live, commands us.... They come in different versions but essentially say the same thing.

version 1.0 The Torah

version 1.1 The Bible

version 1.2 The Qur'an (uncorrupted/unchanged since it was revealed, sent to fix the earlier versions)

Most important thing in anyones life is to learn about this stuff.. These are very precarious times we're in.

Iseedeadpixels

///3power wrote: »

The guidebook/user manual on how to live, commands us.... They come in different versions but essentially say the same thing.

version 1.0 The Torah

version 1.1 The Bible

version 1.2 The Qur'an (uncorrupted/unchanged since it was revealed, sent to fix the earlier versions)

Most important thing in anyones life is to learn about this stuff.. These are very precarious times we're in.

So no.

///3power

Did a judge in the supreme court tell you not to murder anyone, or is it written somewhere for all to see?

Iseedeadpixels

///3power wrote: »

Did a judge in the supreme court tell you not to murder anyone, or is it written somewhere for all to see?

Totally different arguement, murder doesn't come into my thinking regardless of what was written years ago, clutching at straws you are.

Iseedeadpixels

Ok so why is the world so ****ed up then? Cant be Gods will because he loves us all right?

uck51js9zml2yt

///3power wrote: »

The guidebook/user manual on how to live, commands us.... They come in different versions but essentially say the same thing.

version 1.0 The Torah

version 1.1 The Bible

version 1.2 The Qur'an (uncorrupted/unchanged since it was revealed, sent to fix the earlier versions)

Most important thing in anyones life is to learn about this stuff.. These are very precarious times we're in.

The best misrepresentation I've heard so far.
The torah which was the law and the prophets. Then came the fulfillment of the law in Jesus Christ along with teachings of grace.
The quran, a book written by a man whose goal was to.... Well I'll leave that for you to decide. It certainly wasn't written to "FIX" the other books and was certainly not given by the God I serve.

///3power

You seem to have missed my point.


The world is messed up by man, not God.

The world without man would be a paradise teeming with beauty. The ecosystems would all be working in unison and natural selection would be doing it's thing, and the place would be unreal.

Instead it's becoming a polluted toxic mess, by mans intervention, by mans greed.

This has all been prophesied, God knew some men would be consumed by evil and those evil men would lead us to the state we find ourselves.

That doesn't make it Gods fault.

As for intervention. The usual "how can God let this happen" argument, well it's all part of the test.

Everyone will be tested with something of hunger, fear and loss.

Look, we could be here all day if you're gonna keep asking the same mundane questions people ask (who couldn't be bothered finding the answers to). The answers can be found. Learn about religion, specifically the final revelation. It clears up a lot of things.

If you really want the answers they're there.

///3power

And He wants the best for all His creation, that doesn't mean He "loves us all" without question.

If you reject Him, He wont look at you on the day of account.

Iseedeadpixels

///3power wrote: »

You seem to have missed my point.


The world is messed up by man, not God.

The world without man would be a paradise teeming with beauty. The ecosystems would all be working in unison and natural selection would be doing it's thing, and the place would be unreal.

Instead it's becoming a polluted toxic mess, by mans intervention, by mans greed.

This has all been prophesied, God knew some men would be consumed by evil and those evil men would lead us to the state we find ourselves.

That doesn't make it Gods fault.

As for intervention. The usual "how can God let this happen" argument, well it's all part of the test.

Everyone will be tested with something of hunger, fear and loss.

Look, we could be here all day if you're gonna keep asking the same mundane questions people ask (who couldn't be bothered finding the answers to). The answers can be found. Learn about religion, specifically the final revelation. It clears up a lot of things.

If you really want the answers they're there.

Full of **** as usual, there has been no sign of God in modern times, you cant answer questions properly just dodge them, you claim he commands us owns us is the reason I eat etc yet does not strike me down when I joke about him, does nothing as his pets/slaves whatever we are kill each other, sits back and allows what you people deem to be sick/flawed people to be born.

I want you to answer these questions without reverting to goal post moving or dodging it.

1. He created us.....then why have we got so many genetic flaws?

2. Why has he not personally shown himself or his power in a meaningful way?

3. Why did he allow his priests abuse kids?

4. Where is heaven? Before modern science our spirits ascended to the sky.....but we know now theres a universe out there, so how do we get there?

catallus

For the imagination of Man is nothing but evil, for all of the long day.

Our distance from God becomes greater every day.

Wibbs

///3power wrote: »

There are historical records and accounts outside of Arabia that talk about Muhammad (peace be upon him), a few in fact. Am i going to link them? No. Do i care if you believe me? No.

Oh there are a couple claimed to be external sources, however they don't pass much muster. EG the earliest, a side note in a Christian text has him alive and fighting a few years after his official death. Well it gives a version of what might be his name. His name itself is a difficult one as it's honourific in nature. Interestingly the internal Islamic texts and coins don't mention him for decades after his death either. The symbolism of the cross is strong in the early texts/coins too. Quite the number of early references see Islam as either idolaters or a heretical Christian sect. That said I'd not put much store in those sources as enemies aren't to be trusted.

As for Genesis. That book is a lot more than just the story of creation (which i assume is what you were referring to).

In that context yes.

The book tells a detailed story of How Abraham (peace be upon him) was promised a progeny that would go on to form great nations, through the bloodlines of Isaac and Ishmael. As we have today! Today is the proof (not-a-mind the rest of the proof).

Really? Or you could argue that both Jews and Muslims have had a not so great time of things. The Jews have been harried and vilified from pre Christian times onwards to the point where their actual extinction was planned and attempted. Islam after an amazing early flowering soon fell far behind Christian Europe. To the point where the first Quran wasn't printed in the Muslim world, but in Russia.

It might do you the world of good to read (about) it, if you haven't. Use that great intellect you've been blessed with to really consider this stuff. Religious education in this country unfortunately goes as far as telling a few stories about Jesus (pbuh), and ends there. But the narrative, wisdom and guidance goes waaaaaaaayy deeper than just Jesus.

Actually I was blessed(no pun) to be quite well educated in theological matters, both Christian and others. I found it an interesting area to study.

I would say if you want to delve into a longstanding and easily researched and visible conspiracy you could do worse than examine the evolution of the various religions and the characters within and how that was formed and set in stone and dissenting voices and evidence were quashed, sometimes brutally.

That doesn't mean anyone is going to attack you or anyone who wishes to research history.

While the vast majority of Muslims wouldn't bat an eyelid, there exists enough among their number that questioning the historicity/evolution of the Quran or the narrative of Mohammed would be quite the dangerous thing to do publicly.

If someone denies the existence of Jesus and Muhammad, they are denying that yesterday even existed.

While personally I would believe that both individuals existed and no doubt some of the narratives are also historical, there is a lot of noise to signal going on.

These prophets are documented. There are divine and non divine accounts of them.

Few of the latter. What we know of both is almost entirely down to internal sources.

Not only that but they're all related, through one family bloodline. The Bloodline of Abraham (pbuh).

According to the internal sources. In the Christian narrative they conspire to get Jesus born in Nazareth(to make it fit prophecy) by the completely fictitious story of a Roman census. As for bloodlines, going by genetics and population size, you can bet there are a few million related to Abraham(who has not a single external source).

Many of the stories can be verified either through historical accounts or through geological research (i'll explain later in a post i'm working on).

Try geographical. Mecca which is supposed to have been a large trading centre well known among merchants exists in no maps or texts until well after Islam has spread. Indeed it's so far off the beaten track it would be like having an industrial estate in Greenland.

Oh, and by the way i was doing a little reading on that giants thread you commented on. In the Qur'an God explains that He is expanding the earth. The Qur'an also mentions that early humans i.e. Adam (pbuh) were 60 cubits tall (90 feet i think). If the earth was smaller, the gravitational forces diminish, thus allowing for land creatures to big bigger e.g dinosaurs.

Here's a picture of an ancient crocodile skull and modern one

A) if the planet earth was smaller then yep the gravity would be less and that means you end up with the atmosphere flying off into space(among other problems). QV the planet Mars. Gigantism can be supported in a number of ways. Water borne animals can afford to grow the largest because of the support of the medium. Secondly oxygen levels. Such levels were much higher than today back in for example the Cretaceous, so animals could afford to grow. It's one reason you couldn't have "Jurassic Park" today even if you could clone a T-rex. You'd need to give him a giant oxygen tank and a wooly jumper as the temperatures were higher too. Never mind the food bills.

I was also reading about many scientists and geologists who have had their careers ruined for going public with findings that question accepted scientific principles, when it comes to ancient man.

Oh that can happen alright.

and then your last sentence in your post. You said you've no horse. Then insinuate that the gospel of Barnabus was written after the advent of Islam. Like one second you're being objective, then the next making what appear to be factual statements based on nothing. So clearly you have a dog.

Nope. The facts are the texts don't "fit" the timeline. This new one has yet to be carbon dated, but I'll bet you it's after Islam came along.

If you're so certain of your non beliefs then why are you always commenting on religion threads?

Actually I don't. I can't recall the last time I was in the Atheists and agnostics forum, much less posted. The last time I was in the Christian or Islamic or Whatever(Simpsons reference) forums could be counted in years ago.

Like, to me it seems that all athiests, somewhere deep down are always unsure. So they have to reassure themselves by spitting their venom in all religious discussions. You're unsure and you feel uneasy, because belief is preprogrammed into you. Deep down you know you're doing something wrong, but you're blinded.

For a start I wouldn't label myself an Atheist. Agnostic yes. Ironically I dwell in the "unsure", it's just that my unsureness is applied to all. I have always had a suspicion of the "sure" of any hue. The man who is convinced he's right is to be worried about IMH.

Every atheist chose not to believe in a specific moment in their life. Every believer has believed since the start!

I know kids who were born to athiest/agnostic parents and they never believed. OK they might have believed in fairies and Santa Claus but they grew outa that. What anyone believes is entirely to do with the culture they're born into and later influences on that culture. Even those who convert from one to another. I have found that they were strong believers in the primary culturally infused religion, found it lacking in some way, but needed something else, a faith for their own spiritual health and transfered that to another that suited them more. There does exist a spiritual need in humans, though it varies and varies quite the bit between individuals. Its also variable in definition. So many scientist who would label as athiests if the thought about it all get a "spiritual" buzz from scientific knowledge.

Also think about why EVERY single culture, no matter how isolated, all worship something. It's innate in us. Scientific studies have proven this.

Oh I agree, however I would question the conclusions some take from this. We modern humans seek meaning in existence. That has led to philosophy, science and religion. At one time they were all bound up together and over time they have diverged. We still all believe in something. It's just different somethings.

If one faith was the Real Deal(tm) then we'd all believe it or would have been exposed to it for the last 30+ 1000 years, yet nope. Actually if someone wanted to plug into and be a part of the oldest faith in existence, a faith that makes the Abrahamic religions, even Hinduism, look like they showed up last week, then they'd be animists/shamanists. Interestingly many tribal cultures found both Christianity and Islam attractive because they saw much of shamanistic vibes in both.

Anyway good to chat with you and as Dave Allen used to say, may your god go with you.

///3power

Bradley Weak Golf wrote: »

The best misrepresentation I've heard so far.
The torah which was the law and the prophets. Then came the fulfillment of the law in Jesus Christ along with teachings of grace.
The quran, a book written by a man whose goal was to.... Well I'll leave that for you to decide. It certainly wasn't written to "FIX" the other books and was certainly not given by the God I serve.

Not being smart sister (i think) but you obviously have no real knowledge about Islam, and are just accepting the way it's being portrayed without making an informed opinion of your own. In case you hadn't noticed the threads about false flag terrorist attacks on your way in, and how all these terror suspects are linked with the shady MI6, CIA, mossad, ISI, FBI before any terror plot has played out.
To sum it up for you, the war on terror was a hoax, just as the war on drugs was before it. The hatred directed towards Muslims is exactly the same as the hatred directed towards commi's in the 80's. Terrorist attacks have no affiliation with real Islam.

While we're on the conspiracy threads, the truth is there is a war against Islam because it's the only thing left standing in the way. Way of what you ask? I'll let you figure that one out.

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

Full of **** as usual, there has been no sign of God in modern times, you cant answer questions properly just dodge them, you claim he commands us owns us is the reason I eat etc yet does not strike me down when I joke about him, does nothing as his pets/slaves whatever we are kill each other, sits back and allows what you people deem to be sick/flawed people to be born.

I want you to answer these questions without reverting to goal post moving or dodging it.

1. He created us.....then why have we got so many genetic flaws?

2. Why has he not personally shown himself or his power in a meaningful way?

3. Why did he allow his priests abuse kids?

4. Where is heaven? Before modern science our spirits ascended to the sky.....but we know now theres a universe out there, so how do we get there?

I didn't dodge any question. I just answered it with a question.

No, God hasn't personally commanded me anything. He has laid out the law in divine books. Just like a judge didn't command you personally not to rob sweets from the corner shop, cause the law has been written already!

If you expect God to give you your very own divine book with all laws just for you, you might be waiting.

Ever consider that He doesn't strike you down because He's giving you a chance?

There are nothing but more and more signs of God lately. Prophecies are coming true left, right and centre.

And in quicker succession too. It seems like there's something new happening every week now.

Time is going so fast, it seems like everything is all converging. I've been following this stuff for the past few years and it seems as though everything is coming to a head. My perspective is one from a Christian/Muslim standpoint. The prophecies in both religions are about 90% fulfilled.

God tells us He made different nations, as part of the test. To see how we interact. If a person blindly hates another person because they are a different religion, that = failing the test. God says it would have been easy for Him to make one religion and one nation for the whole world, but He didn't on purpose. So the "pets/slaves" who kill each other will have no place in the afterlife. There's not much justice in this world. The next one will be complete truth and justice, i can't freakin wait

1. Genetic flaw. Not everyone has flaws. But the people who are born disabled etc are tested, and likewise their guardians are tested. This life is nothing but suffering and injustice for most. That's why it's so short. A little suffering, if you're patient and grateful, it'll all pay off.

2. I don't know what you mean by meaningful. But why He hasn't shown Himself? Well, if you could see God taking up half the horizon, would you ever put a foot wrong? You're just about to pocket that pack of jelly tots from the corner store, and you look up and He's there staring at you and pointing to the hellfire. Would you still rob them?
Course you wouldn't. In my opinion He doesn't show Himself as part of the test, to see who will obey and who wont. Only God knows the truth.

3. His priests are no different than any other men. They don't have any special attributes. The reason some priests have done evil things is because the Catholic Church incorporated has forbidden priests to marry. If a priest was to marry, his kids would inherit his property. By forbidding priests to marry, when they die, the property goes back to the Church.
In Islam the priests (and everyone) are encouraged to marry. God tells us that the three basic instincts of a human is eating, drinking and sex. So when you deny a man sex, bad things happen. It is forbidden for a Muslim to lead a monotheistic life (a life like a monk). A Muslim should marry, be sociable, do business, engage with society etc.

4. How do we get to heaven? That's a bloody good question. If i knew i'd be gone already... I don't know the directions, but i know the instructions. Believe. Pray. Do good. Give charity. Promote what is right and forbid what is wrong. Observe the rights of others. The rights of the poor over you. The rights of your parents over you. The rights of your spouse. The instructions can be found when you read about it. When you follow them your life starts to change dramatically. I swear. You wouldn't believe the way things change.

Wibbs wrote: »

That said I'd not put much store in those sources as enemies aren't to be trusted.

As they say; only the victors write history

Wibbs wrote: »

In that context yes. Really? Or you could argue that both Jews and Muslims have had a not so great time of things. The Jews have been harried and vilified from pre Christian times onwards to the point where their actual extinction was planned and attempted. Islam after an amazing early flowering soon fell far behind Christian Europe. To the point where the first Quran wasn't printed in the Muslim world, but in Russia.

I can't rightly remember the history of the first printing press, China or somewhere. Regardless, the first Qur'an was compiled by the first Caliph Abu Bakr (RA) after the death of Muhammad (SAW). Islam sparked the renaissance here. You're obviously well read, but unfortunately most people don't realise what that part of the world has contributed. The media portrays Islamic countries as backwards, and fail to acknowledge the first of pretty much everything came from there. Universities, hospitals, astronomers, artists, architects, and on and on. Even the numbers we use 1 to 10, are Arabic numerals. People are so ignorant to this knowledge.

Wibbs wrote: »

I would say if you want to delve into a longstanding and easily researched and visible conspiracy you could do worse than examine the evolution of the various religions and the characters within and how that was formed and set in stone and dissenting voices and evidence were quashed, sometimes brutally.

It's sad that you swap reality for conspiracy, and conspiracy for reality.

Man, if you can't see how zionists rule the world, you are absolutely blind beyond reason.

"anything with the word protocols is nonsense" you said.

Forget theology, if you learnt about what happened to the Jews throughout antiquity. You would know that they have been punished for disobeying direct commands from God time and time again. They have been exiled a few times. They have been prohibited food that was once lawful to them. They have been punished countless times.
Now, my point you ask? Well, the zionist movement was formed a hundred or so years ago, for the main purpose of establishing a Jewish homeland. The only problem is God has commanded the Jews NOT to establish their own country until the advent of the messiah. So basically these zionists have been directly disobeying God since 1948. And most worryingly, they haven't been punished.

The Bible refers to these Jews as "fake Jews" and "the synagogue of satan".

Oh and a few weeks ago they announced they will soon be making cash money illegal!

Not to mention rivers turning red all over the world for the past 2 years.

And of course the Pope's ground breaking visit to Israel last week, and all the things that transpired from that. Among which was the Qur'an being read for the first time in the Vatican.

Along with over a hundred other prophecies that have come true in the last few decades, between all the true religions.

Or the strange (still unexplained) trumpet sounds heard all over the world last year. Including Ireland. Another prophecy. The first trumpet as a warning. The second to signal the beginning of the end.

Not to mention the scores of omens and other non divine prophecies like the Irish St. Malachi predicting this pope is the last.

And Rabbi Kaduri's prophecy a few months ago, concerning Areal Sharon (an earthquake happened just as they were lowering him into the ground, so vile the earth doesn't even accept him). And Rabbi Kaduri is a kabbalist Jew. A Jew who does magic, even though magic is prohibited by God.

I could really go on and on. Of course your zionist controlled telly wont tell you any of this stuff. On the contrary it's imperative to their plan that you remain completely ignorant to these happenings. Their plan is almost complete. Their "cup of iniquity" is nearly full.

I wouldn't be rambling here only that i feel so sorry for people. The rude awaking is around the corner. Not many will be prepared.

Wibbs wrote: »

While the vast majority of Muslims wouldn't bat an eyelid, there exists enough among their number that questioning the historicity/evolution of the Quran or the narrative of Mohammed would be quite the dangerous thing to do publicly.

You've got a wrong impression of Muslims. If you were sincere, you would be debated and/or disregarded.

Wibbs wrote: »

Few of the latter. What we know of both is almost entirely down to internal sources. According to the internal sources. In the Christian narrative they conspire to get Jesus born in Nazareth(to make it fit prophecy) by the completely fictitious story of a Roman census. As for bloodlines, going by genetics and population size, you can bet there are a few million related to Abraham(who has not a single external source).

I know you're naturally sceptical, and that's fine. But for me, i believe nothing for certainty except the Qur'an. What ever it says i consider truer than true. I believe it more than i believe myself.

Absolutely, Abraham was promised to be the father of massive nations. Most every born Muslim, Christian and Jew in the world are of his seed.

Wibbs wrote: »

Try geographical. Mecca which is supposed to have been a large trading centre well known among merchants exists in no maps or texts until well after Islam has spread. Indeed it's so far off the beaten track it would be like having an industrial estate in Greenland.

Woops, yea i meant geographical lol. Actually i don't think Mecca was a big trading centre. I know a lot of trade was generated from pilgrims (even before Islam), but other than that i don't believe it was frequented all that often for business. As you said, it's off the main highways and business routes.

Wibbs wrote: »

A) if the planet earth was smaller then yep the gravity would be less and that means you end up with the atmosphere flying off into space(among other problems). QV the planet Mars. Gigantism can be supported in a number of ways. Water borne animals can afford to grow the largest because of the support of the medium. Secondly oxygen levels. Such levels were much higher than today back in for example the Cretaceous, so animals could afford to grow. It's one reason you couldn't have "Jurassic Park" today even if you could clone a T-rex. You'd need to give him a giant oxygen tank and a wooly jumper as the temperatures were higher too. Never mind the food bills.

lol, awe would ya look at the adorablesaur.. That's about to eat us whole.

Well, God says the earth expanded, so to me that means the earth expanded!
It makes sense too, a lot more than continental drift. I don't refute that continental drift happens, but it seems much more likely that the continents stretched apart rather than drifted apart. The plates can't drift apart when they're all floating side by side. They can crush each other by a few mm every year. But float away across the globe? Chyeah, not logical or likely. Even over the course of billions of years.

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope. The facts are the texts don't "fit" the timeline. This new one has yet to be carbon dated, but I'll bet you it's after Islam came along.

The Spanish and Italian texts maybe. We must learn more about this "original" text So far, it's looking good from my end.

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually I don't. I can't recall the last time I was in the Atheists and agnostics forum, much less posted. The last time I was in the Christian or Islamic or Whatever(Simpsons reference) forums could be counted in years ago.

For a start I wouldn't label myself an Atheist. Agnostic yes. Ironically I dwell in the "unsure", it's just that my unsureness is applied to all. I have always had a suspicion of the "sure" of any hue. The man who is convinced he's right is to be worried about IMH.

Sorry for saying you were spitting venom. But when i see people always trying to crush beliefs, it vexes me. Not that you were doing that. But that's just the way i saw it. I'm so used to seeing it. People are gone so shy to even talk about God. It really says a lot about where we are.

Wibbs wrote: »

I know kids who were born to athiest/agnostic parents and they never believed. OK they might have believed in fairies and Santa Claus but they grew outa that. What anyone believes is entirely to do with the culture they're born into and later influences on that culture. Even those who convert from one to another. I have found that they were strong believers in the primary culturally infused religion, found it lacking in some way, but needed something else, a faith for their own spiritual health and transfered that to another that suited them more. There does exist a spiritual need in humans, though it varies and varies quite the bit between individuals. Its also variable in definition. So many scientist who would label as athiests if the thought about it all get a "spiritual" buzz from scientific knowledge.

Funny that because i have a cousin who was born into a completely atheist house, who is now a priest
I disagree that a culture is what determines whether a person believes or not. From what i've read, it's innate. Every baby is born as a believer. As you said, everyone has a spiritual thirst. I wonder how many lost Godless Americans have blown their brains out listening to Enya. She's supposedly huge over there. They say music is food for the soul. I say that's lies from the satans. None the less people have needs. So some take Enya supplements to satiate those needs, until the desired affect wears off. You need God more than God needs you. He needs nothing.

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh I agree, however I would question the conclusions some take from this. We modern humans seek meaning in existence. That has led to philosophy, science and religion. At one time they were all bound up together and over time they have diverged. We still all believe in something. It's just different somethings.

Science and religion go hand in hand in Islam. Islam is pro-evolution. God told us directly that all life here originated from water.

Here, allow me to link a good video i saw earlier.

If one faith was the Real Deal(tm) then we'd all believe it or would have been exposed to it for the last 30+ 1000 years, yet nope. Actually if someone wanted to plug into and be a part of the oldest faith in existence, a faith that makes the Abrahamic religions, even Hinduism, look like they showed up last week, then they'd be animists/shamanists. Interestingly many tribal cultures found both Christianity and Islam attractive because they saw much of shamanistic vibes in both.

Anyway good to chat with you and as Dave Allen used to say, may your god go with you.

One faith is the real deal. It's the faith that 60,000 people join everyday while all other faiths are dying, dwindling, fading out of existence.

It's literally a perfect religion. But it seems like it's camoflauged so most don't see it for what it really is.

In the end Jesus (pbuh) will establish it all over the world. After he breaks the crusafix (an idol, forbidden in Christianity) and commands his followers to SUBMIT to One God.
Look up the Arabic word for submission.

Anyway, good to chat to you too. Thanks for the reply.

uck51js9zml2yt

///3power wrote: »

Not being smart sister (i think) but you obviously have no real knowledge about Islam, and are just accepting the way it's being portrayed without making an informed opinion of your own. In case you hadn't noticed the threads about false flag terrorist attacks on your way in, and how all these terror suspects are linked with the shady MI6, CIA, mossad, ISI, FBI before any terror plot has played out.
To sum it up for you, the war on terror was a hoax, just as the war on drugs was before it. The hatred directed towards Muslims is exactly the same as the hatred directed towards commi's in the 80's. Terrorist attacks have no affiliation with real Islam.

.

Firstly, I'm no ones sister Secondly, Ive a lot of friends who converted from Islam to Christianity and know their father very well who happens to be an Immam. So I know a fair bit about Islam.
As for terrorists.is it just me or are there a lot of peaceful muslim jihadists in the news recently. ..but I'm sure its just an FBI conspiracy.:D

///3power

Bradley Weak Golf wrote: »

Firstly, I'm no ones sister Secondly, Ive a lot of friends who converted from Islam to Christianity and know their father very well who happens to be an Immam. So I know a fair bit about Islam.
As for terrorists.is it just me or are there a lot of peaceful muslim jihadists in the news recently. ..but I'm sure its just an FBI conspiracy.:D

Knowing Muslims does not = Knowing Islam.
Especially if the Muslims you know are non Muslim lol.


What's happening in Iraq is not what's been portrayed on the media.
ISIS play a tiny role overall. I'm not going to even go into the detail because its so complex. It involves about 7 different countries. It's a proxy war without any battlefield. All sides being funded by different countries all for ulterior motives. It's highly complex, but if you try to find alternative media journalists, who actually have sources of Iraqi's in Iraq, you get a better understanding. Corporate media should only be watched/read to keep up to date with the propaganda they're pushing. Know your enemy sort of thing.


Terrorist and Jihadist are not the same thing.

Explain to me how simple Afghanistani farmers and shepherds BEAT one of the worlds superpowers in the 80's, when Russians invaded Afghanistan. The people had nothing, just simple people living off the land. Some of them living in remote areas didn't even have electricity, nor had they any desire for it.

When the Russians invaded, the righteous believers who obey Gods commands, understood they must perform JIHAD as commanded by God, to defend their families and their lands.

By Allah's permission (Glorified and Exalted be He) and with His ability. Simple farmers became Mujahideen (soldiers of God) armed with sticks and stones AND YET THEY BEAT 1000'S OF TANKS, BOMBERS, FIGHTER JETS AND TENS OF THOUSANDS OF HOSTILE AGGRESSIVE SOLDIERS. Armed only with sticks and an unflinching belief and trust in God.

God will always be on the side of those oppressed and against the aggressors.

Twenty years later, they give the Americans the same dose. How can simple farmers with no technology or weapons, not be destroyed by the worlds mightiest armed forces with trillions of dollars invested in every aspect of war?

Look up "MIRACLES MUJAHIDEEN AFGHANISTAN" if you be wise

Iseedeadpixels

Answer 1. being tested.

Answer 2. being tested.

Answer 3. Man is flawed.....we are being tested as stated above.

Answer 4. Didn't answer it, I asked how in the past we ascended to heaven, modern science has proved there is a universe out there, so when we ascend where are we going, is there a portal of some sort, are we transported or shown the way or what, you say read about it but thats stories and basic human decency to do the right thing.

You cannot answer a question properly, there is no structure other than we are being tested, that is your answer to everything.

I have no fear of a god, I dont like the idea of murder, but the crusaders in the name of god did, why was it ok for them to be allowed murder.

Why did Hitler try kill the jews in the name of god, and I quote

In a 1922 speech, he said: "My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. ...And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited."

Your god is a hypocrite and a charlatan, Thou shalt not kill......unless I want you to of course.

I might have to ponder those lovely bag of sweets now as it seems very christian.

///3power

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

Answer 1. being tested.

Answer 2. being tested.

Answer 3. Man is flawed.....we are being tested as stated above.

Answer 4. Didn't answer it, I asked how in the past we ascended to heaven, modern science has proved there is a universe out there, so when we ascend where are we going, is there a portal of some sort, are we transported or shown the way or what, you say read about it but thats stories and basic human decency to do the right thing.

You cannot answer a question properly, there is no structure other than we are being tested, that is your answer to everything.

I have no fear of a god, I dont like the idea of murder, but the crusaders in the name of god did, why was it ok for them to be allowed murder.

Why did Hitler try kill the jews in the name of god, and I quote



Your god is a hypocrite and a charlatan, Thou shalt not kill......unless I want you to of course.

I might have to ponder those lovely bag of sweets now as it seems very christian.

Yep, being tested is pretty much the entirety of it. From our point of view anyway.
We will be sorted out on the day of account. Both heaven and hell will be filled.


As for the location of heaven. Haven't a clue, but it could be anywhere.

God created us in the first place, and recreating us is no harder for Him. He will recreate us with accuracy down to our very finger tips.

Heaven doesn't necessarily have to be through a portal or alternate universe. We can't even comprehend how small we are.

Why do you blame God for things man has done in His name?

I don't care if you call them crusaders, terrorists, hitlers or what have you. If they are killing unjustly, that is against Gods law.

Thou shalt not kill, only refers to killing unjustly.

You can't kill innocent people.

If someone is trying to kill you, you are within your rights by God to kill them.

Hitler wanted to kill the Jews in his country because they were practising usury. I don't believe execution is the punishment for usury in any religion.

Iseedeadpixels

Like talking to a brick wall......I guess you could say im being tested.....so in fact you are god : O

*bows intently*

///3power

Astaghfirullah