Moderate Unionists?

seachto7

Is there much of a voice for moderate unionists in Northern Ireland in the last few years?

For example, are there unionists with no interest in the union flag, the royal family, the 12th of July, but who feel happy as part of the UK?

Only person I can reference is John Hewitt, the poet, who wouldn't have drawn much support from the old style unionists due to his political beliefs and how he identified himself.

I suppose I might be wrong to call him a moderate unionist? Or would I?

There seems to be very little contemporary media coverage of this? Is it just a case that they are silenced or feel under threat by the hard liners for fear of being called Lundys?

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chughes

Last year I read a book called "Northern Protestants - An Unsettled People" by Susan McKay. I highly recommend this book if you want to get an insight into the Unionist mindset.
In relation to moderate Protestants/Unionists it would appear that the area between Hollywood and Bangor is where you would find the type of people you ask about, OP. This is an affluent area and the people who live here would not vote DUP or march in Orange parades but still have a high regard for their Britishness.

NIMAN

seachto7 wrote: »

Is there much of a voice for moderate unionists in Northern Ireland in the last few years?

For example, are there unionists with no interest in the union flag, the royal family, the 12th of July, but who feel happy as part of the UK?

Only person I can reference is John Hewitt, the poet, who wouldn't have drawn much support from the old style unionists due to his political beliefs and how he identified himself.

I suppose I might be wrong to call him a moderate unionist? Or would I?

There seems to be very little contemporary media coverage of this? Is it just a case that they are silenced or feel under threat by the hard liners for fear of being called Lundys?

That describes an awful lot of Nationalists in NI too!

I would say if you want to find the type of Unionists you speak of, you would be best to look at middle class areas where they have decent jobs, good standard of living etc. Most of these would probably not be the rabble rousing, marching type I'd guess. I know quite a few Protestants and very few of them are into the whole 12th/Marching scene. Most mix freely with their Nationalist/Catholic friends, socialise with them and tend to be fairly indifferent to flags and the like.

Problem is, we don't see these folk in the media, but we see the thousands from disadvantaged areas who are under educated, unemployed with no future who will take to the streets for anything thats going.

GerB40

seachto7 wrote: »

Is there much of a voice for moderate unionists in Northern Ireland in the last few years?

For example, are there unionists with no interest in the union flag, the royal family, the 12th of July, but who feel happy as part of the UK?

Only person I can reference is John Hewitt, the poet, who wouldn't have drawn much support from the old style unionists due to his political beliefs and how he identified himself.

I suppose I might be wrong to call him a moderate unionist? Or would I?

There seems to be very little contemporary media coverage of this? Is it just a case that they are silenced or feel under threat by the hard liners for fear of being called Lundys?

Moderates of any type, be it national, religious or political will always get less media coverage than their flag burning, petrol bomb throwing counterparts because they're exactly that, moderate.. They don't grab headlines/sell papers or boost ratings so the media doesn't bother with them...

seachto7

NIMAN wrote: »

That describes an awful lot of Nationalists in NI too!

I would say if you want to find the type of Unionists you speak of, you would be best to look at middle class areas where they have decent jobs, good standard of living etc. Most of these would probably not be the rabble rousing, marching type I'd guess. I know quite a few Protestants and very few of them are into the whole 12th/Marching scene. Most mix freely with their Nationalist/Catholic friends, socialise with them and tend to be fairly indifferent to flags and the like.

Problem is, we don't see these folk in the media, but we see the thousands from disadvantaged areas who are under educated, unemployed with no future who will take to the streets for anything thats going.

This is what I am hoping to investigate. Is it a case of not wanting to rock the boat with alternative view points? For example, maybe there are folk who are happy in the union, but would like a new flag, a new anthem, a non religious unionist agenda etc.

Would these people, if they were in politics, have to put up with intimidation from hardliners?

Again, not that I know a whole lot about him, but John Hewitt springs to mind.
I have already been in touch with Alex Kane and Brian Spencer but am trying to nail down publictions to look at, and time periods.

I suppose there isn't a whole lot of current stuff done on it from what I can see?

Fair to say more has been done on the nationalist side of things?

alastair

seachto7 wrote: »

This is what I am hoping to investigate. Is it a case of not wanting to rock the boat with alternative view points? For example, maybe there are folk who are happy in the union, but would like a new flag, a new anthem, a non religious unionist agenda etc.

Would these people, if they were in politics, have to put up with intimidation from hardliners?

Again, not that I know a whole lot about him, but John Hewitt springs to mind.
I have already been in touch with Alex Kane and Brian Spencer but am trying to nail down publictions to look at, and time periods.

I suppose there isn't a whole lot of current stuff done on it from what I can see?

Fair to say more has been done on the nationalist side of things?

There are lots of moderate unionist voices, and they're not all middle class either. Check out Jeanette Ervine (David Ervine of the PUP's widow), involved in community activism, and a shining example of someone combining clear unionist politics with cross-community outreach.

seachto7

I suppose I shouldn't have used "middle class" to mean moderate. Maybe moderate isn't the correct word to use....

Dr.Tank Adams

I'm sure there are some, but let's honest, Unionism isn't an ideology that lends itself particularly well to a moderate stance.

NIMAN

Check out the new political party NI21.

Set up by Basil McCrea, formerly UUP. They currently have a Catholic candidate in the Euro elections who is from a republican background. Plus they have Irish language posters up around Belfast.

Potentially an important new party in NI, but I am sure the hardliners will still get most of the votes.

turnikett1

One idea that intrigues me as well is the thought of left wing unionism - anyone have any references?

seachto7

Dr.Tank Adams wrote: »

I'm sure there are some, but let's honest, Unionism isn't an ideology that lends itself particularly well to a moderate stance.

I would disagree

seachto7

turnikett1 wrote: »

One idea that intrigues me as well is the thought of left wing unionism - anyone have any references?

Yes, this is also an area worth exploration. I think John Hewitt was a socialist.

seachto7

NIMAN wrote: »

Check out the new political party NI21.

Set up by Basil McCrea, formerly UUP. They currently have a Catholic candidate in the Euro elections who is from a republican background. Plus they have Irish language posters up around Belfast.

Potentially an important new party in NI, but I am sure the hardliners will still get most of the votes.

Yes, quite interesting. I will look into this some more.

Dr.Tank Adams

seachto7 wrote: »

I would disagree

Care to elaborate, or are you just disagreeing for the sake of it?

seachto7

Dr.Tank Adams wrote: »

Care to elaborate, or are you just disagreeing for the sake of it?

I would think, and I know some, who have no interest in the 12th of July, the Union Flag or God Save the Queen.

NIMAN

turnikett1 wrote: »

One idea that intrigues me as well is the thought of left wing unionism - anyone have any references?

Like Ivan Cooper?

He was one of the founders of the SDLP and was involved in the Civil Rights Movement in the North in the 60s.

Dr.Tank Adams

seachto7 wrote: »

I would think, and I know some, who have no interest in the 12th of July, the Union Flag or God Save the Queen.

That's not really backing up your statement though. We all know that there ARE moderate Unionists, but what I said was that Unionism isn't an ideology that lends itself particularly well to moderation. You haven't explained why you think it is.

junder

turnikett1 wrote: »

One idea that intrigues me as well is the thought of left wing unionism - anyone have any references?

Gusty Spencer, David Ervine, billy Hutchinson , billy Mitchell to name a few

IrishProd

junder wrote: »

Gusty Spencer, David Ervine, billy Hutchinson , billy Mitchell to name a few

He most certainly is not left-wing, but he is a far-right wing thug not to mention a sectarian nutjob, along with most of the PUP today

I suppose you think Ruth Patterson, Michael Stone & Billy Wright are all left-wing too?

David Ervine is probably crawling in his grave looking at what the PUP has turned into, despite his best of intentions.

I suggest you lookup what left-wing is 'Junder'.

feargale

turnikett1 wrote: »

One idea that intrigues me as well is the thought of left wing unionism - anyone have any references?

Google Tommy Henderson.

seachto7

Dr.Tank Adams wrote: »

That's not really backing up your statement though. We all know that there ARE moderate Unionists, but what I said was that Unionism isn't an ideology that lends itself particularly well to moderation. You haven't explained why you think it is.

On basic terms, is a unionist not someone who is happy to vote to stay in the union.

Can there be socialist or left wing unionists?

Lastlight.

seachto7 wrote: »

I would think, and I know some, who have no interest in the 12th of July, the Union Flag or God Save the Queen.

They would still be Unionists.

Most are God fearing people.

Karl Stein

Lastlight. wrote: »

Most are God fearing people.

What century are you posting from and where are you getting your information from?

junder

IrishProd wrote: »

He most certainly is not left-wing, but he is a far-right wing thug not to mention a sectarian nutjob, along with most of the PUP today

I suppose you think Ruth Patterson, Michael Stone & Billy Wright are all left-wing too?

David Ervine is probably crawling in his grave looking at what the PUP has turned into, despite his best of intentions.

I suggest you lookup what left-wing is 'Junder'.

Suggested you try being a bit more objective

I am pie

junder wrote: »

Suggested you try being a bit more objective

I think it would be interesting to see you justify billy hutchinson's left wing credentials.

He's a populist playing to a working class audience, socialism is surely not compatible with constitutional monarchy and support of the British political system dominated by old etonians and the like.

Here's the calibre of the man:

In March 2014, in an interview with the Belfast Newsletter, Hutchinson was quoted as saying that he had "no regrets" about his past in relation to the random murders of his two Catholic victims in 1974, Michael Loughran and Edward Morgan, as they walked along the Falls Road to work, claiming that he had helped to prevent a united Ireland by his actions

Another rat in the sewer of NI politics.

Unionism is a single issue ideology, a stretch to call it that. I have much more respect for the likes of Anna Lo , the Alliance councillor who came out and said she'd have no problem with a united ireland, in fact like the idea but was also happy with the status quo. Respect due for trying to get beyond the single issue which has wrecked the north of ireland / Northern Ireland. Weening the economy off the teet of the public sector is a much more pressing and important concern. I would respect Jeanette Ervine also for her East belfast Irish language initiatives. Allowing a reconnection with cultural roots which have been completely obscured by Orange flute bands, calvinistic protestantism and paranoid fleg waving. Gaelic culture is not exclusively Catholic.

feargale

I am pie wrote: »

Unionism is a single issue ideology, a stretch to call it that. I have much more respect for the likes of Anna Lo , the Alliance councillor who came out and said she'd have no problem with a united ireland, in fact like the idea but was also happy with the status quo. Respect due for trying to get beyond the single issue which has wrecked the north of ireland / Northern Ireland. Weening the economy off the teet of the public sector is a much more pressing and important concern. I would respect Jeanette Ervine also for her East belfast Irish language initiatives. Allowing a reconnection with cultural roots which have been completely obscured by Orange flute bands, calvinistic protestantism and paranoid fleg waving. Gaelic culture is not exclusively Catholic.

You keep talking like that and it will be exclusively Catholic. It seems there is no place for Calvinism i.e. Presbyterianism in your united Ireland.

I am pie

feargale wrote: »

You keep talking like that and it will be exclusively Catholic. It seems there is no place for Calvinism i.e. Presbyterianism in your united Ireland.

I am from a presbyterian family.

The point i am making is that no one need fear Gaelic language and culture as it is not a Catholic culture nor "republican" as it predates those concepts.

There should be space for every religion in Ireland united, divided or on the moon quite frankly.

Are you saying that presbyterian culture = orange bands and flute waving? I disagree. None of that came over the irish sea from the scottish lowlands. That developed here based on the divided society forged by the Ulster plantation. I'd see Presbyterianism as perfectly compatible with gaelic culture which in turn should not be a reflection of nationalism either.

Karl Stein

I am pie wrote: »

I'd see Presbyterianism as perfectly compatible with gaelic culture which in turn should not be a reflection of nationalism either.

I think it's unfortunate that Gaelic culture is viewed as synonymous with northern Republicanism/Nationalism by union/loyalists. The Irish language and Gaelic sports no more belong to Republicans than English and Rugby do to the Tories.

I watched a documentary on Presbyterians recently and IIRC they were very strong supporters of a UI and in opposition to the British monarchy a few generations back.

orangesoda

People who have a mixed background would be very moderate, e.g. someone born into a unionist background whilst having a catholic grandparent or something.

Regarding gaelic culture, of course it isn't catholic, sure it isn't 'Irish' either, there's some Irish people who don't have gaelic ancestry whereas Scotland has a large gaelic heritage. This view isn't shared by unionists though, this is best shown by their lack of involvement in the GAA, even though they have a gaelic sport over in Britain, shinty.

Lastlight.

Karl Stein wrote: »

What century are you posting from and where are you getting your information from?

Most Unionists would stem from a religious and conservative background and hold traditional views.

turnikett1

Lastlight. wrote: »

Most Unionists would stem from a religious and conservative background and hold traditional views.

Yes. I forget what year this was from, it was in the 2000's I believe, but it was a poll that showed 15% of Britons attend church regularly compared to 50% of Northern Irish people with a Protestant/British background!

bilston

turnikett1 wrote: »

One idea that intrigues me as well is the thought of left wing unionism - anyone have any references?

The PUP claim to be left wing.

Oh and the majority of Unionists, probably a very large majority of Unionists are moderate.

IrishProd

bilston wrote: »

The PUP claim to be left wing.

Oh and the majority of Unionists, probably a very large majority of Unionists are moderate.

Bullsh*t. One only has to look at the fact that the DUP are the largest unionist party.

An openly homophobic, right-wing, ulta-conservative, religious fundamentalist organisation that tries to hide the fact that it is a sectarian political party, a party that was even opposed to the Good Friday Agreement and the Peace Process, and yet , the vast majority of unionists still vote for them and support the DUP.

Not very encouraging.

seachto7

IrishProd wrote: »

Bullsh*t. One only has to look at the fact that the DUP are the largest unionist party.

An openly homophobic, right-wing, ulta-conservative, religious fundamentalist organisation that tries to hid it is a sectarian political party, a party that was even opposed to the Good Friday Agreement and the Peace Process, and yet , the vast majority of unionists still vote for them and support the DUP.

Not very encouraging.

This is what I am trying to get at, for the purposes of a project. Let us suppose there are unionists who are, not homophobic, left wing, liberal, not religious fundamentalists, don't care for marching, don't really care for fleg waving or chest beating, but are content with the idea of remaining in the union. Heck, they might even engage in some folk music or gaelic culture!
Are these types lost in mainstream media, or do they just not stick the heads above the trenches...?

valor rorghulis

IrishProd wrote: »

He most certainly is not left-wing, but he is a far-right wing thug not to mention a sectarian nutjob, along with most of the PUP today

I suppose you think Ruth Patterson, Michael Stone & Billy Wright are all left-wing too?

David Ervine is probably crawling in his grave looking at what the PUP has turned into, despite his best of intentions.

I suggest you lookup what left-wing is 'Junder'.

Billy Hutchison is left wing in the economic sense. The fact he is a sectarian bigot has no impact on this.

i am pie wrote:

I think it would be interesting to see you justify billy hutchinson's left wing credentials.

He's a populist playing to a working class audience, socialism is surely not compatible with constitutional monarchy and support of the British political system dominated by old etonians and the like.

Here's the calibre of the man:

In March 2014, in an interview with the Belfast Newsletter, Hutchinson was quoted as saying that he had "no regrets" about his past in relation to the random murders of his two Catholic victims in 1974, Michael Loughran and Edward Morgan, as they walked along the Falls Road to work, claiming that he had helped to prevent a united Ireland by his actions

Another rat in the sewer of NI politics.

As above. I agree Hutchison is a low life but he still a left wing low life.

Unionism is a single issue ideology, a stretch to call it that. I have much more respect for the likes of Anna Lo , the Alliance councillor who came out and said she'd have no problem with a united ireland, in fact like the idea but was also happy with the status quo. Respect due for trying to get beyond the single issue which has wrecked the north of ireland / Northern Ireland. Weening the economy off the teet of the public sector is a much more pressing and important concern. I would respect Jeanette Ervine also for her East belfast Irish language initiatives. Allowing a reconnection with cultural roots which have been completely obscured by Orange flute bands, calvinistic protestantism and paranoid fleg waving. Gaelic culture is not exclusively Catholic.

I don't think unionism is actually an ideology at all - it is a preference for Northern Ireland to be in sovereign union with Great Britain.

I would actually go so far as to say it is actually just another flavour of nationalism. ie DUP are British/Northern Irish Nationalists in the sense that they are citizens of the British/Northern Irish Nation

You could also use Sinn Fein as an example, they describe themselves as nationalist in the Northern Ireland assembly, but they take their seats in Europe so they are unionists in the EU sense.

Therefore neither nationalism nor unionism can be ideologies when both DUP and Sinn Fein can be described as either

IrishProd

valor rorghulis wrote: »

Billy Hutchison is left wing in the economic sense. The fact he is a sectarian bigot has no impact on this.

He is still not left-wing in the economic sense because of the socially exclusionary nature of how he promotes these economics that he only applies to loyalist areas, not to mention the UVF is on the opposite spectrum to the left.

The exclusionary nature of Hutchinson's socio-economic policies and views is the antithesis of left-wing ideology and politics. So even in the economic sense he still cannot be described as left-wing.

valor rorghulis

IrishProd wrote: »

Bullsh*t. One only has to look at the fact that the DUP are the largest unionist party.

An openly homophobic, right-wing, ulta-conservative, religious fundamentalist organisation that tries to hide the fact that it is a sectarian political party, a party that was even opposed to the Good Friday Agreement and the Peace Process, and yet , the vast majority of unionists still vote for them and support the DUP.

Not very encouraging.

NI is a deeply scarred place. People vote DUP because they think they'll stand up to Sinn Fein the most, even if they disagree with policies.

I think the likes of Peter Robinson and particularly Sammy Wilson would be liberals or at least centrists if they were born in England or Republic of Ireland. A situation like the troubles drives people to the extremes

valor rorghulis

IrishProd wrote: »

He is still not left-wing in the economic sense because of the socially exclusionary nature of how he promotes these economics that he only applies to loyalist areas, not to mention the UVF is on the opposite spectrum to the left.

The exclusionary nature of Hutchinson's socio-economic policies and views is the antithesis of left-wing ideology and politics. So even in the economic sense he still cannot be described as left-wing.

I don't think the UVF have any notion of politics whatsoever. They're just criminals.

They're against reducing corporation tax and they want more regulation of large corporations. These are leftist policies. How he promotes them doesn't make them right wing policies.

aquascrotum

THe DUP is the largest unionist party (while a at least a significant minority of a unionist persuasion don't vote given the lack of a representative party) because it's easy to scare monger and debase issues to tribal politics come election time when the 'other side' appears to content to vote in ever increasing numbers for the political representatives (cough) of the people who terrorised unionists for 30 years. It doesn't take much persuasion, wounds are widespread and still very raw.

Am sure the same is true for moderate nationalists/ catholic Northern Irish given those who would be minded to remain in the union have no representative party and rightly wouldn't be comfortable voting for an orange order toting traditional unionist party.

Personally, I'm hoping to see NI21 make some inroads. I've no doubt that it will be very slow but hope they stick at it. My one concern thus far in terms of this election coming is that they are devaluing their campaign by not really expressing any actual policies on real issues, other than claiming to be different to the traditional parties.

Disappointingly I'd say the coming election will see the DUP proportion of the vote increase - the UUP (traditionally softer) has made itself unelectable by making itself the DUP's lackey in an effort to survive, while Alliance has undoubtedly lost ground in Belfast over the flags issue, undoing a lot of the hard won support previously gained due to their work on the ground.

Personally I would like to see the establishment of the main Irish political parties in NI. The fracturing of the SF vote would be the most potent means of giving confidence to the remaining unionist electorate that it is no longer a case of united we stand etc, and that they can vote on conscience or real issues. Alliance is the only non single issue (Republican / nationalist) party that a northern Irish catholic / moderate nationalist could have voted for but that just doesn't seem to have ever happened; increases in the Alliance vote had always corresponded to a drop in traditional unionist party voting, i.e. it has attracted traditionally unionist votes in the main.

Of my (mainly catholic) group of friends and colleagues, the level of awareness of Alliance is pretty much nil - some of them thought at the last GE that it was the Lib Dems, hence the majority of NI Catholics appear content to continue voting SF, and so the counter-pattern will continue on the perceived traditionally unionist side.

Moderate small u unionist here BTW...

IrishProd wrote: »

Bullsh*t. One only has to look at the fact that the DUP are the largest unionist party.

An openly homophobic, right-wing, ulta-conservative, religious fundamentalist organisation that tries to hide the fact that it is a sectarian political party, a party that was even opposed to the Good Friday Agreement and the Peace Process, and yet , the vast majority of unionists still vote for them and support the DUP.

Not very encouraging.

T runner

turnikett1 wrote: »

Yes. I forget what year this was from, it was in the 2000's I believe, but it was a poll that showed 15% of Britons attend church regularly compared to 50% of Northern Irish people with a Protestant/British background!

I think the same trend might be relatively true of Catholic church going in the North compared to the Republic. Identity is more important there and unfortunatly identity is married to religion.

Religion is more important to Protestants in Northern Ireland than to Catholics though. I think it is the real qualifier for that culture.

I would be interested in hearing Protestants who feel British view of their Britishness. Is it a political identity? Mainly cultural? Or does their Britishness
stem from a perception that their ancestors exclusively came from Britain? Some or all of the above?

I heard one Protestant woman interviewed speculate at one point if she would cease to be British should she wake up to a United Ireland. I thought that was inciteful and highlighted a key difference in the identities.

People who see themselves as Irish tend to, consciously or not, associate their identity with the Island/country. That identity doesn't change with the state. The identity allows them to be Irish regardless of whether a Union Jack. French or Irish tricolor flies over Dublin or Belfast.

I guess there is room for Northern Protestants to be Irish and Unionist with this identity which may have been the case until the pre-partition generation aged. With the advent of the "Irish" southern state separate from the supranationally British controlled one, the national identity "Irish" has ceased to be used in favour of the political national identity "British".

Lastlight.

All you have to do is look at the history books. A different people with a different political outlook and religion and more belief in traditional values.

Lastlight.

IrishProd wrote: »

Bullsh*t. One only has to look at the fact that the DUP are the largest unionist party.

An openly homophobic, right-wing, ulta-conservative, religious fundamentalist organisation that tries to hide the fact that it is a sectarian political party, a party that was even opposed to the Good Friday Agreement and the Peace Process, and yet , the vast majority of unionists still vote for them and support the DUP.

Not very encouraging.

Compared to Sinn Fein which openly defends terrorism, murder and threats and is hugely sectarian against the Ulster Scots culture.

T runner

Lastlight. wrote: »

All you have to do is look at the history books. A different people with a different political outlook and religion and more belief in traditional values.

Yes...but were they numerous enough to warrant a different state. A country can have many cultures. Did Protestants in NE Ulster have the right to force partition on Ireland?
For example, would Eastern Ukrainians now have the right to force partition on Ukraine.....
The problem with partitioning Ireland was...not only was the Ulster Protestant culture different to Irish Catholics...it was openly hostile to Catholics and their religion by definition. The history of the NI state was thus doomed to end in violence because the side with the power felt it was justified religiously and politically to withhold civil rights from the side without the power.

That to me this is the blindness of Unionism, and why so many people in Ireland and Britain are dubious. They claimed they wanted nothing to do with being a minority in Ireland due to a claim that their civil rights would be withheld, yet continued to withhold civil rights to Catholics. It looks like fundamentalism. It loos like they felt that Catholic rights or the views of 80% of the population of Ireland was irrelevant because they wore Catholic and therefore their opinions are less than worthless.

Karl Stein

aquascrotum wrote: »

the 'other side' appears to content to vote in ever increasing numbers for the political representatives (cough) of the people who terrorised unionists for 30 years.

That's an awfully reductive snippet.

Union/loyalists voted in their droves for inciter to violence and the greatest scourge the north has ever known, Ian Paisley and continued to do so as his party opposed the PP.

I recall Unionist 'moderate' John Taylor saying that many in his community had a 'sneaking regard' for loyalists', who the RUC/UDR colluded with, campaign of sectarian murder.

IrishProd

Lastlight. wrote: »

Compared to Sinn Fein which openly defends terrorism, murder and threats and is hugely sectarian against the Ulster Scots culture.

Hey look everyone! Another account that was created this month before an election that only posts whataboutery, false truths and types diarrhoea instead of actually addressing the topic.

WTF are you harping on about SF on a thread about unionism. Address the points in my post about the thread topic, you are the only one here acting like a twat ranting about SF and some rubbish about "Ulster Scots" (whatever or whoever they are supposed to be), who have nothing to do with this topic, which judging by your all your posts, you have an obsession with.

seachto7

OP here. So do y'all reckon I'll get the basis of a dissertation out of the "moderate unionism" or lack of...

junder

[quoteo7;90393754"]OP here. So do y'all reckon I'll get the basis of a dissertation out of the "moderate unionism" or lack of... [/quote]

There are plenty of moderate unionists, just none that fit the nationalist / Republican ideal of what a moderate unionists should be ie a unionist that doesn't support the union. Personally speaking as a moderate unionist, I find Sinn Fein to be a hard line, authoritarian party, whose very name Sinn Fein ( ourselves alone) pretty much sums up the Sinn Féin idology. Why am I a moderate, well I'm non-sectarian, I'm not racist or homophobic . I'm also an Ulster scot, my family and family name being traceable back to one of biggest reiver clans of the Scottish border lands, before our exile to ulster courtesy of King James

IrishProd

junder wrote: »

Personally speaking as a moderate unionist

Yes sure, and I am queen of England.

I find Sinn Fein to be a hard line, authoritarian party, whose very name Sinn Fein (ourselves alone) pretty much sums up the Sinn Féin idology.

It is 'we ourselves', learn to speak or understand more about the Irish language instead of attacking and ridiculing constantly with your hibernophobic views and you would have known that. Your usual sweeping & ignorant statements to deflect from the unionist parties are very transparent.

well I'm non-sectarian, I'm not racist.

I have seen your posts, you make excuses, defend and don't criticise people who engage in sectarianism & racism.

I'm also an Ulster scot.

And I am a "Munster Scot", so what?

junder

IrishProd wrote: »

Yes sure, and I am queen of England.



It is 'we ourselves', learn to speak or understand more about the Irish language instead of attacking and ridiculing constantly with your hibernophobic views and you would have known that. Your usual sweeping & ignorant statements to deflect from the unionist parties are very transparent.



I have seen your posts, you make excuses, defend and don't criticise people who engage in sectarianism & racism.



And I am a "Munster Scot", so what?

Pot and kettle springs to mind, your quite happy with the thread as long as it's sticking the usual boot into the unionist community, turn the focus on to Republicanism and you cry foul. As I said the only type of unionist you would regard as a moderate is somebody who doesn't believe in the union, the minute one of us defined ourselves as British, you automatically define us as an.extremist. Unlike you I'm not going to make a sweeping statement about nationalists, I have met many who would be discribed as moderate, quite a few,on this site you would generally discribe them as west brits. I have been on this site a hell of alot longer then you, in those years I have been posting I have never once been banned for saying anything racist or sectarian, I do believe strongly in my cultural identity but that does not make me a bigot

T runner

junder wrote: »

Pot and kettle springs to mind, your quite happy with the thread as long as it's sticking the usual boot into the unionist community, turn the focus on to Republicanism and you cry foul. As I said the only type of unionist you would regard as a moderate is somebody who doesn't believe in the union, the minute one of us defined ourselves as British, you automatically define us as an.extremist. Unlike you I'm not going to make a sweeping statement about nationalists, I have met many who would be discribed as moderate, quite a few,on this site you would generally discribe them as west brits. I have been on this site a hell of alot longer then you, in those years I have been posting I have never once been banned for saying anything racist or sectarian, I do believe strongly in my cultural identity but that does not make me a bigot

You are a member of and support a bigoted organisation (orange order) which abhors Catholics and prohibits its members from marrying Catholics and much more. Every orange band can play any sectarian song on demand. Practice makes perfect.
It also allows the UVF (an organisation who murders/threatens people based on religion at birth) to march and play behind its bands during parades.

If the orange order is part of your cultural identity, if the UVF is part of your cultural identity, then your cultural identity IS bigoted and you are NO moderate unionist.

junder

"T wrote:

You are a member of and support a bigoted organisation (orange order) which abhors Catholics and prohibits its members from marrying Catholics and much more. Every orange band can play any sectarian song on demand. Practice makes perfect.
It also allows the UVF (an organisation who murders/threatens people based on religion at birth) to march and play behind its bands during parades.

If the orange order is part of your cultural identity, if the UVF is part of your cultural identity, then your cultural identity IS bigoted and you are NO moderate unionist.

We have been around this before, I am not a member of the orange order, but hey why let the truth get in the way. My mother who is an orange women ( past mistress of her lodge) best friend was catholic ( I say was because she passed away having battled cancer) she is god mother to her best friends, children, the eldest being gay. So here we have a orange past mistress, god mother to a gay catholic child, how does that fit into your stereotype? You unfortunately are one of the biggest barriers to peace on this island by virtue of you myopia when it comes to my community. Every single one of you often long winded diatribes against my community are nothing more then ( in my opinion, bigoted) generalisation about my community, your posts are filled with the unionist community is this, the Unionist community is that, as if we are some huge, monolithic hive culture, bereft of Any individuality. If I was to make the same generalisations about black people, or gay people as you do about my community, I would be called racist or a homophobe. Here is another anecdote for you, I run a youth club on a army camp, the club I run is involved in a cross community project with a local catholic youth club, we have been doing this project now for about 4 years, once a month they visit us and once a month we visit thier club. The project of which myself and my colleague (who runs the Catholic youth club) is so highly thought of that the irish department of foreign affairs is funding it for a second year running. So here we have a youth group of young people (whose fathers are serving soldiers) making friends and with young people from a catholic youth club ( some of whom come from hard line republican estates) funded by the irish government, and ran by a member of a loyalist flute band ( and apprentice boy) and by a nationalist councillor ( yes my compatriot at the Catholic youth club is running for council). Again how does this fit into your stereotype about me or my Community?