Does Minister Quinn formulate education policy on his personal whims?

f3232

I briefly heard someone on the radio saying today that Minister Quinn says that history has a good future in the Education system, on the basis that anyone that knows him "knows that he is a history buff".

So does that mean that if he was not a history buff history would be in real trouble as a subject.

Its good to know that the future of education policy is dependent on the personal whims of the minister.

That got me thinking of how Quinn understands education in general- in a selfish narrow utilitarian manner.

Last year I heard him telling an anecdote about how he was at a dinner with a leading industrialist and the conversation was pretty stayed until Quinn mentioned something about the history of the Beatles, where upon the industrialist warmed up and the conversation flowed.

Again Quinn used this as an example of how history can be "used".


Rant over

Philistine

A person who is guided by materialism and is usually disdainful of intellectual or artistic values

Arthur Beesley

Better him than the whim of teachers.

acequion

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Better him than the whim of teachers.

Sorry but I don't think so! I'd prefer education policy dictated by educators rather than a flippin architect!

doc_17

His speech to the JMB was very telling thus week.

Boober Fraggle

I don't see how him liking a subject is going to make students do it. History will be optional in the JCSA which will obviously reduce the numbers doing it at both junior and senior cycle.

Pwpane

doc_17 wrote: »

His speech to the JMB was very telling thus week.

Thanks for the heads up.

I found these snippets interesting:

Having discussed the administrative burden on schools already, I want to ask you to further consider the degree to which a restoration of middle management posts in schools should be our priority?
Instead, should we be looking at the provision of administrative support to schools that is not provided by a teacher?
Would it be preferable for schools to be provided with support services funding, to employ a person dedicated to dealing with administration?....

....And freeing a school principal from managing a building project, preparing a contract of employment, or providing technical support to a teacher, would considerably free up that principal to lead the teaching and learning in their school.....

.....Teachers, parents and students – all as equal partners in the operation of our schools......

......The future of smaller secondary schools is also an issue that must be aired at some stage, given the difficulties faced by these schools in offering a broad curriculum. - See more at: http://education.ie/en/Press-Events/Speeches/2014-Speeches/SP14%20-05-01.html#sthash.aovcYkH1.dpuf

byhookorbycrook

Instead, should we be looking at the provision of administrative support to schools that is not provided by a teacher?
Would it be preferable for schools to be provided with support services funding, to employ a person dedicated to dealing with administration?....

Sounds ok on paper but would this lead to a business person with no ideas how schools run trying to cut essential corners?


I would also say that whenever RQ goes off script ,he seems to make an even bigger eejit of himself.

Mr Pseudonym

acequion wrote: »

Sorry but I don't think so! I'd prefer education policy dictated by educators rather than a flippin architect!

If Quinn is an architect, teachers are geographers, historians, mathematicians, or whatever, depending on what subject their undergrad was in. Whether you like Quinn or not, few are as experienced in politics and government as he is.

ytareh

Theyre clearly trying to privatise education and introduce school 'managers' just like the horrific examples in the USA /UK-theyve copied literally every other failed 'best practice' off them .Im sure D O'B is already doing the footwork on setting up Irish Education Ltd (free to all -registration fee 4k) , the consultancy budget should include a few bob for certain union officials and maybe Brian Cowen or Bertie can chair some of the B.O.M.s .
I think a LOT of the population are getting sick of the corruption and ineptness -it remains to be seen who gets it 'in the neck' in the next elections .Personally Id give it to them in the temple for fear they might resurrect .

ytareh

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

If Quinn is an architect, teachers are geographers, historians, mathematicians, or whatever, depending on what subject their undergrad was in. Whether you like Quinn or not, few are as experienced in politics and government as he is.

Come on!Teachers , TEACH! Politicians lie and steal .

Mr Pseudonym

ytareh wrote: »

Politicians lie and steal.

ytareh

Oh come on ,youre not looking for examples are you?

rainbowtrout

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

If Quinn is an architect, teachers are geographers, historians, mathematicians, or whatever, depending on what subject their undergrad was in. Whether you like Quinn or not, few are as experienced in politics and government as he is.

And teachers are also trained in pedagogy and educational practice. Quinn is trained in neither.

Experience in politics doesn't necessarily mean he's able to make decisions about the education system.

Mr Pseudonym

rainbowtrout wrote: »

And teachers are also trained in pedagogy and educational practice. Quinn is trained in neither.

Experience in politics doesn't necessarily mean he's able to make decisions about the education system.

You took my post out of context. I was responding to a poster who was dismissing Quinn entirely on the basis of the fact that his undergraduate degree was in architecture. I don't think that's valid.

NowThatsCool

ytareh wrote: »

Theyre clearly trying to privatise education and introduce school 'managers' just like the horrific examples in the USA /UK-theyve copied literally every other failed 'best practice' off them .Im sure D O'B is already doing the footwork on setting up Irish Education Ltd (free to all -registration fee 4k) , the consultancy budget should include a few bob for certain union officials and maybe Brian Cowen or Bertie can chair some of the B.O.M.s .
I think a LOT of the population are getting sick of the corruption and ineptness -it remains to be seen who gets it 'in the neck' in the next elections .Personally Id give it to them in the temple for fear they might resurrect .

Privatise education? Sure doesn't Comrade Quinn want to close private schools (and like a true blue blood pinko kick the church out too)

acequion

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

You took my post out of context. I was responding to a poster who was dismissing Quinn entirely on the basis of the fact that his undergraduate degree was in architecture. I don't think that's valid.

Why is it not valid? Does it not make total sense that all the ministers should have a solid background in the subject of their ministries? Especially in something as crucial to the future of a nation as education.And I'm sorry but I cannot but be dismissive of his great expertise in politics, as not one politician has served this country well in recent times,begging the question if our entire political system is out of its depth in the world of the 21st century. But that's another debate. So,though I have little faith in any current politician,I would be happier with one highly qualified in education and pedagogy and also,one who sees the common sense of involving the practitioners in reform proposals.

rainbowtrout

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

You took my post out of context. I was responding to a poster who was dismissing Quinn entirely on the basis of the fact that his undergraduate degree was in architecture. I don't think that's valid.

Why not? He's currently dismantling and destroying our examination and assessment system and replacing it with the failed systems of other countries. When the man does not have a background in education, he should probably be listening to those that do. He's more interested in making a name for himself than the education of our students. When that's his number one priority, he's not fit to be the minister of education.

cerastes

Boober Fraggle wrote: »

I don't see how him liking a subject is going to make students do it. History will be optional in the JCSA which will obviously reduce the numbers doing it at both junior and senior cycle.

On a seperate note, Id rather they made Irish optional, rather than lose history. Perhaps even introducing a few European languages from an early age. The amount of time, funds and resources that could be redirected to other more practically useful subjects.

Mr Pseudonym

acequion wrote: »

Does it not make total sense that all the ministers should have a solid background in the subject of their ministries?

Hardly an original proposition. But, no - I don't believe it does. To think so is to misunderstand what it is that a minister does.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Why not? He's currently dismantling and destroying our examination and assessment system and replacing it with the failed systems of other countries. When the man does not have a background in education, he should probably be listening to those that do. He's more interested in making a name for himself than the education of our students. When that's his number one priority, he's not fit to be the minister of education.

I don't agree with your assessment of Quinn. But, I was merely arguing that it does not automatically follow that one with an undergrad architecture degree is unqualified.

rainbowtrout

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Hardly an original proposition. But, no - I don't believe it does. To think so is to misunderstand what it is that a minister does.




I don't agree with your assessment of Quinn. But, I was merely arguing that it does not automatically follow that one with an undergrad architecture degree is unqualified.

Why don't you agree. I'm coming from being qualified as a teacher for 14 years and working within the examination system for almost as long. There are plenty of other teachers on here too with similar experience. The new Junior Cert proposals are a disaster.

Architects are qualified to design houses. I can't see why it's not valid to consider them unqualified to make decisions about the education process in this country.

acequion

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Hardly an original proposition. But, no - I don't believe it does. To think so is to misunderstand what it is that a minister does.

So,presuming from your tone, you understand what a minister does and I don't.Perhaps you'd care to enlighten me?

Quite frankly,though I have no background in politics,as a voter,I,along,with other voters,elect the politicians that serve us. And there is overwhelming evidence that many ministers are making a total mess of their jobs, one of the biggest example being Quinn,with the damage he is doing to education.So,if he did have a background and genuine passion for this area as most educators do,perhaps he'd make a better hand of it.

seavill

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Hardly an original proposition. But, no - I don't believe it does. To think so is to misunderstand what it is that a minister does.




I don't agree with your assessment of Quinn. But, I was merely arguing that it does not automatically follow that one with an undergrad architecture degree is unqualified.

How is someone with an architecture qualification qualified on education pedagogy etc?

Mr Pseudonym

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Why don't you agree. I'm coming from being qualified as a teacher for 14 years and working within the examination system for almost as long. There are plenty of other teachers on here too with similar experience. The new Junior Cert proposals are a disaster.

Architects are qualified to design houses. I can't see why it's not valid to consider them unqualified to make decisions about the education process in this country.

I don't agree because I believe many of the reforms to be the correct course of action (please consult my message history for my reasoning).

acequion wrote: »

So,presuming from your tone, you understand what a minister does and I don't.Perhaps you'd care to enlighten me?

Quite frankly,though I have no background in politics,as a voter,I,along,with other voters,elect the politicians that serve us. And there is overwhelming evidence that many ministers are making a total mess of their jobs, one of the biggest example being Quinn,with the damage he is doing to education.So,if he did have a background and genuine passion for this area as most educators do,perhaps he'd make a better hand of it.

"...many ministers are making a total mess of their jobs..." - I don't agree, but surely none more so than Dr James Reilly - how much more qualified could he be?

In general, the policy is decided by the government; the implementation carried out by the civil service. A minister's role is principally to manage and communicate.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Architects are qualified to design houses. I can't see why it's not valid to consider them unqualified to make decisions about the education process in this country.

seavill wrote: »

How is someone with an architecture qualification qualified on education pedagogy etc?

The argument is that they are not necessarily unqualified.

seavill

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I don't agree because I believe many of the reforms to be the correct course of action (please consult my message history for my reasoning).




"...many ministers are making a total mess of their jobs..." - I don't agree, but surely none more so than Dr James Reilly - how much more qualified could he be?

In general, the policy is decided by the government; the implementation carried out by the civil service. A minister's role is principally to manage and communicate.






The argument is that they are not necessarily unqualified.

And my question to you was in what way does it make them qualified - because if it doesn't make them qualified that would then infer that they are unqualified. Same as all our fun with the teaching council

And what backup does this "argument" have?

Mardy Bum

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

In general, the policy is decided by the government; the implementation carried out by the civil service. A minister's role is principally to manage and communicate.
.

Quinn has rejected what the NCAA told him regarding the new Junior Cert. He makes the judgement calls and does a lot more than manage and communicate.

.

acequion

Mr Pseudonym;90229110]I don't agree because I believe many of the reforms to be the correct course of action (please consult my message history for my reasoning).

Well I disagree with this,and so it would appear,the majority of second level teachers.Change and modernisation are undoubtedly needed within the curriculum,but that could be done within the current structures,which overall,have served us well.Radical change,ie "reform" will not necessarily improve the standard of education,it will merely,over time,reduce the cost of education, which is really what this is all about. Quinn is modelling his reforms on those in the US,UK and Queensland, the outcomes based education model as opposed to curriculum based, and there is much hard evidence proving the failure of such a model in those countries.Furthermore, standardised testing, which will eventually be part of the new JCSA, is extremely narrow,exam focused and highly stressful,which makes a mockery of how Quinn is trying to sell his JCSA to the public.

"...many ministers are making a total mess of their jobs..." - I don't agree, but surely none more so than Dr James Reilly - how much more qualified could he be?

I agree completely in the case of Reilly.

In general, the policy is decided by the government; the implementation carried out by the civil service. A minister's role is principally to manage and communicate.

Perhaps we should substitute "dictate" for "communicate".

The argument is that they are not necessarily unqualified.

[/QUOTE]

You are either qualified or unqualified in a particular field.

rainbowtrout

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Quinn has rejected what the NCAA told him regarding the new Junior Cert. He makes the judgement calls and does a lot more than manage and communicate.

.

Further to Mardy Bum's point NCCA subject/course committees consist of the following

The course committee is made up of representatives of the teacher unions, school managerial bodies, the subject association, the Department of Education and Science, and the State Examinations Commission. - See more at: http://www.ncca.ie/en/Curriculum_and_Assessment/Post-Primary_Education/Junior_Cycle/Syllabus_change/History/History.html#sthash.Hany5oag.dpuf

That's a lot of people who are qualified in education and have experience in education coming at it from different angles and their opinions and feedback have been rejected by Quinn. Because obviously he thinks he knows better

evolving_doors

...... Brigid McManus former Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills will chair the NCCA. The role of the Chair of the NCCA is unpaid.
Minister Quinn said: "The NCCA plays a key role in developing, planning and reviewing curriculum and assessment provision in our schools." (taken from here)

So why does he ignore them?

These are his current advisors..
John Walsh and Deirdre Grant. Walsh (€92,672) was Education correspondent and Editor at the Irish Independent for over 18 years while Deirdre Grant (€86,604) is a former TV3 programmer and wife of Karl Brophy, Independent News & Media’s Director of Corporate Affairs. (Taken from Here)

I'd say they know what 'sounds, looks and reads well' for the general public.

rainbowtrout

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck!!!

I could earn 90k a year advising on education and I don't even have to have an education qualification to do it???!!!! When I think of all the hoops the Teaching Council make teachers jump through to register as teachers.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck!!!

I could earn 90k a year advising on education and I don't even have to have an education qualification to do it???!!!! When I think of all the hoops the Teaching Council make teachers jump through to register as teachers.

Ah yeah but I don't think they advertise those jobs on educationposts, hence why I didn't get the job myself the last time around. I reckon they must know someone.

spurious

As a Spanish fisherman said to my uncle once, when they were slagging his lack of knowledge of Irish waters, 'Ah, you think I know f*ck nothing, but I know f*ck all'.

I'm sure the well-paid advisors couldn't know f*ck nothing...they must be in the other camp.

evolving_doors

spurious wrote: »

As a Spanish fisherman said to my uncle once, when they were slagging his lack of knowledge of Irish waters, 'Ah, you think I know f*ck nothing, but I know f*ck all'.

I'm sure the well-paid advisors couldn't know f*ck nothing...they must be in the other camp.

Theyre just spin doctors pure and simple... Why talk to teachers when you can go to the media pals and let them do your work.

spurious

I wonder have many of the senior civil servants in the Department retired - Brigid McManus I know has. Normally they would be the ones to advise against some of the more foolish nonsense the paid so-called experts come out with.

Less arrogant Ministers would have listened to them, as (surprise!) people dealing day to day with the schools tend to have a bit more of a clue as to what goes on.