Void race of results completely?

XtotheZ

A Clear message !!

'As acting Commissaire for Round 3 of the Mayo League in Ballina on 30th April 2014 and having reviewed aspects of the race including the various photographic and video footage and faced with such blatant disregard for the Rules of the road, the Rules of Cycling Ireland and the safety of the cyclist and the public by such a large proportion of participants within the final 1km and the finish line I have decided to void the result of this race completely.
It is regrettable that those who did comply with the Rules may be adversely affected by this decision however the overall good of the League must take precedence and competitors are hereby warned as to their future behaviour.'

Signed : Brian O'Loughlin
Cycling Ireland Commissaire

Basically 3 of us (from the same team) locked out the podium after taking off at 1k to go and all results were void (today) because of the bunch crossing the white line in the sprint. We were offically given the result (wednesday night) and were told that the bunch finish would be decided after the video was viewed. I will add the last 4 k were at balistic speed and were all over the road. I want to know how can a comm expect a bunch sprint stay in the white line with no hill or hardshoulder????? Rational?? Personally I belive its complete bias to our club.

Im still waiting for video footage and somehow I doubt ill get to see it.

godtabh

Isn't there a white line to mark.different sides of the road?

XtotheZ

yes but voiding a race because of crossing it in the sprint? That picture is taken at 100m to go. Imagine going into a sprint in that group (40ish riders of vastly differing experience, note a boxed out Paddy Clarke in the left corner) and only sprinting up the left hand side!

Inquitus

XtotheZ wrote: »

yes but voiding a race because of crossing it in the sprint? That picture is taken at 100m to go. Imagine going into a sprint in that group (40ish riders of vastly differing experience, note a boxed out Paddy Clarke in the left corner) and only sprinting up the left hand side!

I tend to agree with you, I have no tolerance for wrong side riding during a race, but sprints without allowing the line to be crossed just condenses the bunch and increases the already high likelyhood of a crash. My 2c!

XtotheZ

Inquitus wrote: »

I tend to agree with you, I have no tolerance for wrong side riding during a race, but sprints without allowing the line to be crossed just condenses the bunch and increases the already high likelyhood of a crash. My 2c!

my view exactly

07Lapierre

The best way to avoid this happening is to place the finish line at the top of a hill..

Raam

07Lapierre wrote: »

The best way to avoid this happening is to place the finish line at the top of a hill..

Can't do that for every race though.

Arthurdaly

I've yet to be involved in a bunch sprint with 30+ riders and the right side of the road not be used. I'm guessing there must have been shenanigans going on the miles preceding or throughout the race.

07Lapierre

Raam wrote: »

Can't do that for every race though.

You can in Fingal!

XtotheZ

it finished on a very slight incline but when my teammate took off he rode the last k at an average speed of 52 and a max of 56 so it was still very fast

kumate_champ07

doesnt make sense to restrict a sprint to half the width of the road, did you hold your line or veer out in front of others with not enough of a gap to do it safely?

XtotheZ

Arthurdaly wrote: »

I've yet to be involved in a bunch sprint with 30+ riders and the right side of the road not be used. I'm guessing there must have been shenanigans going on the miles preceding or throughout the race.

Not abit, the race was very fast (42kph average for my second last group) so it was lined out all day. Its a handicap race, based on ability 44k with 9 minutes from first to scratch. The only shenanigans came from the Coveys who repeatedly attacked up the right side of the road but whatever.

Another comment from the mayo league cycling page

I wounder how many would comment if we had to scrap one of your fella racers of the road after getting hit by a car, didnt see too many helping out last year when 2 ambulances had to be called to a crash, everyone has an opinion when things dont go their way but look at it from an organizer point of few, SAFETY is first, be thankful you got the chance to have a race and you didnt fall off and you got a shower, refreshments etc

Its much more dangerous though and I dont understand that they cant understand that.

XtotheZ

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

doesnt make sense to restrict a sprint to half the width of the road, did you hold your line or veer out in front of others with not enough of a gap to do it safely?

Nope, it was nothing to do with that it was because the bunch were on the wrong side of the road in the final kilometer

Raam

Some consistency with this approach would be nice. Here are some snaps from recent races.

XtotheZ

Do ye want to see something funny? The same Comm thats complaining is also driving on the wrong side of the road in the picture above

lennymc

is the comm driving or is he in the passenger seat?

In fairness, every rider knows that they shouldn't be on the wrong side of the road, and all races are run (to the best of my knowledge) where the riders should obey the rules of the road. Its cr@ppy that you guys got a 1-2-3, but I can understand the reason he gave, and have to commend him for having the balls to do it. The same consistency should be applied to all races.

I raced a league where the riders were provided with a timing chip. The mat for the timing chip was only on one side of the road. If you crossed the centre line, you didnt get a time. There were no problems there afaik with the sprints.

Beasty

Unless the roads are closed you have no assurance that something is not coming in the other direction

Raam

Beasty wrote: »

Unless the roads are closed you have no assurance that something is not coming in the other direction

Except when you can see that there is nothing.

XtotheZ

lennymc wrote: »

is the comm driving or is he in the passenger seat?

In fairness, every rider knows that they shouldn't be on the wrong side of the road, and all races are run (to the best of my knowledge) where the riders should obey the rules of the road. Its cr@ppy that you guys got a 1-2-3, but I can understand the reason he gave, and have to commend him for having the balls to do it. The same consistency should be applied to all races.

I raced a league where the riders were provided with a timing chip. The mat for the timing chip was only on one side of the road. If you crossed the centre line, you didnt get a time. There were no problems there afaik with the sprints.

it was someone who I and everyone in this forum knows well whos twisting the comms balls. in fact if you look into the distence in my pic you can see him in the red gear. I understand safety, do not get me wrong. But what hes encouraging is more dangerous than what we were doing. Hold the finish on a hill, a hard shoulder, make a harder race to force selection but jesus christ there is going to crashes in a fortnight

07Lapierre

Unless the roads are closed to traffic, there's no excuse for cycling on the wrong side of the road, even when sprinting.

Place the finish line on a hill, Reduce the size of the field and severe penalties for those who break the rules.

Raam

07Lapierre wrote: »

Unless the roads are closed to traffic, there's no excuse for cycling on the wrong side of the road, even when sprinting.

Place the finish line on a hill, Reduce the size of the field and severe penalties for those who break the rules.

You have just ruined every bunch finish in the country.

Beasty

Raam wrote: »

Except when you can see that there is nothing.

The OP said:

XtotheZ wrote: »

I will add the last 4 k were at balistic speed and were all over the road.

Without knowing the road in question it sounds a bit like the Kilmessan race last year, in which there was a major crash involving an oncoming vehicle

Regardless, the RoTR allow you to use the other side for overtaking only

Make sure the road ahead is clear so you have enough distance to allow
you to overtake and get back to your own side of the road without forcing
any other road user to move to avoid you

Anyone cycling on non-closed roads should respect these rules

XtotheZ

Raam wrote: »

You have just ruined every bunch finish in the country.

+1
lads I think i might start playing golf, might be more of rush.

Raam

Beasty wrote: »

The OP said:

Without knowing the road in question it sounds a bit like the Kilmessan race last year, in which there was a major crash involving an oncoming vehicle

Regardless, the RoTR allow you to use the other side for overtaking only
Anyone cycling on non-closed roads should respect these rules

I don't know what was in their minds exactly, but overtaking all the other cyclists was possibly one of their aims.

morana

well i would get 3 of my burly mates to ride in the road and block anybody coming thru forcing them into the wrong side and thus get them disqualified!

But seriously the sprint has to be the full width. The road has to have the cars stopped before the sprint zone.

I know we dont have authority to close the road but common sense must prevail otherwise its first to the top of the hill wins!

07Lapierre

Raam wrote: »

You have just ruined every bunch finish in the country.

Good...maybe then people will wake up and realise that the days of these dangerous type of races are numbered.

XtotheZ

Beasty wrote: »

The OP said:

Without knowing the road in question it sounds a bit like the Kilmessan race last year, in which there was a major crash involving an oncoming vehicle

Regardless, the RoTR allow you to use the other side for overtaking only
Anyone cycling on non-closed roads should respect these rules

Ive heard about that race from a lad i know, keep in mind racing in Connacht doesnt have anywhere nearsame traffic as in Leinster, the road we were on aswell was pretty rural. about 5k from Ballina.

Re: the ROTR I was thinking that aswell, we were on a broken white line but not sure if that means anything

Beasty

Raam wrote: »

I don't know what was in their minds exactly, but overtaking all the other cyclists was possibly one of their aims.

Not only must it be an aim, but it must be an expectation essentially within the space of the road that is visible taking into account the risk that oncoming vehicles may come into view

A good example of a road where this is possible is the Green sheds circuit when finishing on the approach to the motorway roundabout, but even then riders really should not be crossing the white line until the last couple of hundred metres or so when they can see all the way to the roundabout whether there is anything oncoming. Many roads simply don't have that sort of visibility - the idea of doing this from 4km out on an open road is absurd (except perhaps on a dual carriageway when the only real issue is traffic coming up from behind)

Raam

07Lapierre wrote: »

Good...maybe then people will wake up and realise that the days of these dangerous type of races are numbered.

So you want every single race in the country to finish up hill where riders have to battle for position so that they can sprint, say, no more than 4 abreast if you assume that the road has a wide lane and a hard shoulder? Have you considered the potential for crashes which this will introduce as riders are compelled to compete for position in a vastly reduced space?

As a separate pondering...
I wonder would the comms have the gumption to do this for some of the bigger races when the top A1 riders win, or will they save it for smaller league races.

07Lapierre

XtotheZ wrote: »

Ive heard about that race from a lad i know, keep in mind racing in Connacht doesnt have anywhere nearsame traffic as in Leinster, the road we were on aswell was pretty rural. about 5k from Ballina.

The road traffic act doesn't distinguish between Leinster and Connacht. Cycling on the wrong side of the road is illegal no matter what part of the country your in.
( but I do understand what your getting at)

stecleary

Raam wrote: »

Except when you can see that there is nothing.

Going by that it's ok to break every red light in the country and say " i could see there was nothing coming"

The double standards of some cyclist is almost sickening!

07Lapierre

Raam wrote: »

So you want every single race in the country to finish up hill where riders have to battle for position so that they can sprint, say, no more than 4 abreast if you assume that the road has a wide lane and a hard shoulder? Have you considered the potential for crashes which this will introduce as riders are compelled to compete for position in a vastly reduced space?

As a separate pondering...
I wonder would the comms have the gumption to do this for some of the bigger races when the top A1 riders win, or will they save it for smaller league races.

The number of riders in a race should be determined by the roads being used. Narrow roads = small numbers. It's quite simple really.

Beasty

XtotheZ wrote: »

Ive heard about that race from a lad i know, keep in mind racing in Connacht doesnt have anywhere nearsame traffic as in Leinster, the road we were on aswell was pretty rural. about 5k from Ballina.

Kilmessan was rural - we encountered a car maybe 3-4km out. Riders were all over the road with one actually going to the right hand side of the (fortunately by then stopped) vehicle. I dropped off the back as I was afraid of something happening in the sprint finish given the general bahaviour of the bunch (with many completely ignoring unbroken white lines) - another km or so and I came across the carnage

Raam

Beasty wrote: »

Not only must it be an aim, but it must be an expectation essentially within the space of the road that is visible taking into account the risk that oncoming vehicles may come into view

Any organiser who values safety would make arrangements at a finish line to ensure that riders can achieve this.

Out on the course, I would not be in favour of riders taking the entire width.

Raam

07Lapierre wrote: »

The number of riders in a race should be determined by the roads being used. Narrow roads = small numbers. It's quite simple really.

You can only fit 4, maybe 6 at a squeeze into a lane of any decent width and have enough room for some manoeuvre. How few riders need to be in any given race? So many races switch from wide to small roads all the time. What are your guidelines?

07Lapierre

Raam wrote: »

Any organiser who values safety would make arrangements at a finish line to ensure that riders can achieve this.

Out on the course, I would not be in favour of riders taking the entire width.

Organisers cannot stop traffic unless the road is closed by the Gardai. If a race is held on a closed road circuit, that's completely different...riders can spread across the whole width of the road if they want.

Raam

stecleary wrote: »

Going by that it's ok to break every red light in the country and say " i could see there was nothing coming"

The double standards of some cyclist is almost sickening!

No it's not. All actions cannot be reasoned using a single criteria.

lennymc

Raam wrote: »

Any organiser who values safety would make arrangements at a finish line to ensure that riders can achieve this.

Out on the course, I would not be in favour of riders taking the entire width.

The problem with that is that the organiser has no authority to compel traffic to do anything. Unless a member of the Gardai is instructing the traffic to stop, there is no guarantee that anyone will stop. It could equally be argued that any rider who values safety would obey the rules of the road and ride accordingly.

The thing I dont understand is riders taking crazy risks on the wrong side of the road into blind bends 60 or 70 k from the end of a race. :rolleyes:

Beasty

07Lapierre wrote: »

The number of riders in a race should be determined by the roads being used. Narrow roads = small numbers. It's quite simple really.

In addition flattish courses probably need smaller numbers. Some of the circuits you and I are familar with can easily spread out the groups and significantly reduce the temptation to head over to the wrong side of the road. However some of the flatter circuits don't achieve this (as I've found out to my own cost) resulting in larger bunches with lots more riders trying to position themselves for the final sprint. Races like that probably need an element of road closure particularly around the finish, but that is very difficult if not impossible to achieve in most situations

07Lapierre

Raam wrote: »

What are your guidelines?

Experience? And the 1993 road traffic act..nothing like being in a Garda station and having a Garda quote section 74 at you to open your eyes.

stecleary

Raam wrote: »

No it's not. All actions cannot be reasoned using a single criteria.

:eek:
yes you can! the road traffic act...

Its an open road simple as that

Raam

07Lapierre wrote: »

Organisers cannot stop traffic unless the road is closed by the Gardai. If a race is held on a closed road circuit, that's completely different...riders can spread across the whole width of the road if they want.

I appreciate that Swords CC have had their hands slapped recently and that you, along with others are taking a totalitarian approach with regards to rules, but one may still request traffic to take care and advise them that a big bunch is about to approach. In fact, it should be any organisers duty to do this knowing what tends to happen in large bunch finishes. You can bleat on about what the rules are but dealing with what actually happens on the road is paramount.

I don't think it is reasonable to expect an orderly 2x2 formation for the line (ok that is OTT but it is for dramatic effect). Instead riders need to be able to use the full width. Without that, you are killing racing.

XtotheZ

Beasty wrote: »

In addition flattish courses probably need smaller numbers. Some of the circuits you and I are familar with can easily spread out the groups and significantly reduce the temptation to head over to the wrong side of the road. However some of the flatter circuits don't achieve this (as I've found out to my own cost) resulting in larger bunches with lots more riders trying to position themselves for the final sprint. Races like that probably need an element of road closure particularly around the finish, but that is very difficult if not impossible to achieve in most situations

imho races need to be harder, more hills to ween out weaker riders that have no ability bar taking jammy risks in bunch sprints. This imho is the primary reason there is so many crashes in a4 races in comparison to everything else

Raam

07Lapierre wrote: »

Experience? And the 1993 road traffic act..nothing like being in a Garda station and having a Garda quote section 74 at you to open your eyes.

I mean what are suitable numbers for any given race.

Raam

stecleary wrote: »

:eek:
yes you can! the road traffic act...

Its an open road simple as that

Perhaps I didn't explain myself too well... I don't mean carte blanche with regards to ROTR for every given instance.

Beasty

Raam wrote: »

I mean what are suitable numbers for any given race.

In Ulster there is an absolute limit of 80 in open races, with many courses being restricted to 60. I'm not saying those are the numbers that should be applied down here, but in my own experience the quality of the roads used for racing in Ulster is generally better than for those used down here (and I would re-iterate that I am not familar with the roads in this particular case).

If the Gardai start looking to "regulate" racing within Ireland I would guess they would take a bit of a lead from what they see in Ulster (I appreciate those numbers may not "satisfy" a lot of riders (or indeed promoting clubs) down here and there is every likelihood that if such restrictions came in that races would sell out within a few minutes of registration going live, (as currently tends to happen in Ulster). However the more examples there are of riders flouting road traffic law, the more likely it is that the Gardai will look to adopt a standard approach across the country (rather than the county by county approach currently being taken)

Raam

Beasty wrote: »

In Ulster there is an absolute limit of 80 in open races, with many courses being restricted to 60. I'm not saying those are the numbers that should be applied down here, but in my own experience the quality of the roads used for racing in Ulster is generally better than for those used down here (and I would re-iterate that I am not familar with the roads in this particular case).

If the Gardai start looking to "regulate" racing within Ireland I would guess they would take a bit of a lead from what they see in Ulster (I appreciate those numbers may not "satisfy" a lot of riders (or indeed promoting clubs) down here and there is every likelihood that if such restrictions came in that races would sell out within a few minutes of registration going live, (as currently tends to happen in Ulster). However the more examples there are of riders flouting road traffic law, the more likely it is that the Gardai will look to adopt a standard approach across the country (rather than the county by county approach currently being taken)

Do you know how they deal with sprint finishes up north?

Beasty

Raam wrote: »

Do you know how they deal with sprint finishes up north?

Didn't manage to make it that far in my last race:D Interestingly it was on a dual carriageway. My other races have mainly had hill finishes. The one where it was flat the police where there to regulate traffic, and it was a wide road also (and there does tend to be a police presence at the Open races up there - the only time I've not seen them was for TTs)

EDIT - photos from a recent race here where racers are clearly on both sides of the road

Raam

Beasty wrote: »

Didn't manage to make it that far in my last race:D Interestingly it was on a dual carriageway. My other races have mainly had hill finishes. The one where it was flat the police where there to regulate traffic, and it was a wide road also (and there does tend to be a police presence at the Open races up there - the only time I've not seen them was for TTs)

Here is one sprint finish from up north...



Doesn't look like reduced numbers did anything to stop the riders taking the full width there. From 04 so it's a while back. I hope the roads were closed at the finish for that one!

07Lapierre

Raam wrote: »

I appreciate that Swords CC have had their hands slapped recently and that you, along with others are taking a totalitarian approach with regards to rules, but one may still request traffic to take care and advise them that a big bunch is about to approach. In fact, it should be any organisers duty to do this knowing what tends to happen in large bunch finishes. You can bleat on about what the rules are but dealing with what actually happens on the road is paramount.

I don't think it is reasonable to expect an orderly 2x2 formation for the line (ok that is OTT but it is for dramatic effect). Instead riders need to be able to use the full width. Without that, you are killing racing.

+1 I agree with you...but it's not me you need to convince...the Local authority and the Gardai don't see it that way. And I'm not bleating on...I'm trying to make the point that racing is dying already....and unless the cycling authorities take steps to improve safety at races it will die.

Raam

07Lapierre wrote: »

+1 I agree with you...but it's not me you need to convince...the Local authority and the Gardai don't see it that way. And I'm not bleating on...I'm trying to make the point that racing is dying already....and unless the cycling authorities take steps to improve safety at races it will die.

Bleat wasn't the best word, sorry.

I think there needs to be a special arrangement for organisers to effect a closure for a race finish without having a garda prescence.

Here is another sprint finish from up north.